Death of the Right

Sanity, the bill still has to get through the House, and Pelosi said she won't even send it there unless she's guaranteed 1/3 of the GOP votes AHEAD of time. The majority of people, not just the nuts who get picked by call screeners on radio, are against amnesty and for a fence along the border that sees vastly disproportionate amounts a criminals invading our country and overrunning our border towns, compared to our northern border.

You're right, as I said at my place, the simple turn of a phrase in the bill can change the entire meaning. They are still negotiating what the actual words and their meaning are. So, yes, we really don't know what the bill says. But if Ted Kennedy likes it, "danger Will Robinson"!!!

"If Ted likes it"? What's the difference between the knee jerk reaction to Bush on the Left and the idea that just because Kennedy likes something or had anything to do with it, it's bad?

Dave...the majority of the people spoke in the only poll that counted and they voted "other" as the most important issue on the docket...sorry.

We've been thru this time and time again and in the end, honestly, you have to seriously ask yourself how much you want to push this issue...enough to lose the WOT? Because Dave, this is the price that will be paid if the Right isn't careful. It is the same fine line the C/PL have walked for decades. How do we walk it? By SINGLING out specific incidents and specific politicians...we don't throw out the baby with the bath water which is what WILL happen if the Conservatives start to dictate to politicians elected by ALL of America.

Think about it...the minute the Left started to tell Dems how to govern the nation...wouldn't you RUN to the Right?

The Independents and C/PL on the Left would continued to vote GOP because of the war, the courts, and the economy which the GOP has right, but the RIGHT has got to keep a cool head and WAIT, for God's sake, to SEE exactly what is in that bill.

This is the "song" that was sung by almost every guest of Hugh. The let's kill it before we even know what it is is astonishing--and totally underserving of people who are supposed to be reasonable.

I'm on my way to an appointment and will address your comment in detail when I get back.

For now, please see my reply to Dave...

Sanity, I detect a knee jerk coming from you. If anything less than a neutral response is given towards the social issues of the day that the media puts forward for consideration, I get accused of singling out an issue and abandoning the WOT.

I'm not pushing this issue, the MSM and the new media are reporting how McCain, Kennedy with Bush are. You're castigating me because I'm commenting on it (and I'm saying to wait and see, "we really don't know what the bill says"). I'm entitled to be skeptical based on the total lack of progress in building the fence they DID agree on.

And I'm sorry, Sanity, you'll never get me to see Ted Kennedy as anything other than a Progressive Ellte Liberal Military Hater who's ideology will never ever create any good for the United States. Even the Big Dig was a fiasco.

As you said, we've been over and over this. Why do you sound an alarm every time a social issue is considered. I'm not set in my ways, I'm carefully choosing my hill to die on, but if society wants to discuss immigration, abortion, or any other social issue, I'm going to express my opinion, good or bad. I don't think you're listening to me.

I hear your message loud and clear, and if you'd listen to mine, you'd see that I agree with you.

fair enough.

And I have the same reaction to Ted Kennedy AND McCain. And the pro-life issue...I agree with you and half the people here...I am panicking because I do not want to see a repeat of 2006, not with 2008 and the WH up for graps.

I was alarmed when Hugh pushed the same buttons that he did over the Dubai deal and over something he doesn't even know if he should be alarmed about.

I see the Independents and the C/PL moving toward the Left over this and I want to scream. Again, I am not saying the fence is not worth fighting over; I am saying that the WOT trumps everything and because the Dems will not allow our troops to win, we MUST work actively against a Dem slipping into the WH.

If that means holding our nose and getting half a loaf, we do it.

This may not sound particularly honorable or principled but I believe that we are fighting for America's survival and cannot afford to allow the absolutes to tank the only viable party that wants to win the WOT.

Yes Dave, I believe that we mostly agree with each other--it wasn't you I was addressing in particular. I also know how you feel about the border issue--and again, I agree with the message, just not the way it's being delivered. I am particularly sensitive to your passions because I too have an issue that at this moment is taking a back seat to the WOT for no other reason that I will not allow a Dem to occupy the WH.

The Right is in a difficult situation; all I am saying is that we have to make sure that the RINO press doesn't put us in an impossible one--based on heresay.

You thought the media's manipulation of the Dubai deal was "good" for the Right?

Doc, EVERY time some media person talks about "people power" they really mean "their media power" via their fan base...and it scares the bejesus out of the majority of Americans that don't share our ideology. The media knows exactly what they are doing...they whip their listeners into a frenzy to put pressure on politicians they believe they have the God-given right to control...(Laura Ingraham said upon learning that Newt would not be able to show up on her show, that his press people should be fired for angering talk show hosts that can hurt him.)

In this case...do YOU have any personal knowledge of exactly what you're so angry about?
About a dozen times, I heard Hugh say "the bill is supposed to not contain this or supposed to have that..." And each guest pointed out that no one really knows so why is the man getting angry?

7 months ago, a bill was passed and signed into law that would build an 800 mile fence...notice months later, ANOTHER bill is supposed (but no one really knows) to make that 380 miles...so bill passed or not...380 or 800...it's not exactly the end of the world is it? It all depends on who has Congress--and ultimately the WH...and it CAN change in 2009, can't it?

But you want to risk the WOT on something that you don't know for sure...that could change next year...or never...

ah...why?

I heard Hughe with Tony Snow, and I couldn't believe all the assumptions he was making.

Tony said Hughe was "blowing everything way out of proportion", and that when he read the details he would be pleased with the bill...

I think too many on the right just jump the gun and are totally unreasonable.

The dems just keep outwitting us, it seems...isn't it just like them to call talk shows and "pretend" to be conservatives...don't ya just love those lefty loons.:(

I just posted a blog on dem pols...they seem to have nine lives, no matter what they do...

the cat is out of the bag? May I ask who let this cat out of the bag since even Hewitt who first "boke" the news admits not knowing for sure if any of the things he's "heard" is true?

Hugh told his listeners on the first day that this bill wouldn't penalize employers, then "learned" that the first offense (PER ILLEGAL) is $6k to $75k! He admitted that was good IF it's true.

If??? Huh? Does that sound like responsible journalism to you?

Remember Doc...on these assumptions you want to destroy the only VIABLE party that stands between you and another 40 years of Dem rule.

My jaw dropping moment was when Hewitt complained about "ramming" this bill thru in one week and Tony told him that NO bill passes that quickly and Hewitt should know better.

The point is that if the bill signed last year could be "over turned" by this year's flavor, couldn't this year's bill ALSO be turned over NEXT year and the year after that?

In fact Hugh kept saying that the "base" no longer believed the GOP minority...ok, if they don't believe that the GOP will deliver last year's bill, why on earth do they believe that THIS year's bill will be delivered?

It's hype and it's based on heresay. In a lawyer, it's unforgivable.

And it will cost us 2008 and the WH.

I suspect we may be surprised to see the Middle rise up against this. Against the MSM's wishes, most people are against amnesty. This will be very interesting.

Did you hear Jimma Cahtah is going to join the GOP base, and help us lose in 08?...LOL

He's sounding like some of our friends on the right..."Bush is worst President in history"...uh oh...

fair enough but again, I need to ask what does having a fit gain?

The GOP minority can hold off for an immigration bill that will satisfy their base but the Dem majority will never let a bill that makes the Right happy pass.

And the ONLY thing the rest of America that does NOT share the Right's ideology will see is the "power of the people" dictate to the government...unfortunately, it's not "their people" and the leaders are supposed to represent them too, not just Right's.

As an Independent, I can tell you that nothing scares us more than the idea that one ideology is going to supercede everyone else's.

As Dave asked on his blog...what can we do to get our concerns across BUT not allow the media to use our passions against us?

Frankly, I'm fresh out of ideas. As long as the Right insist on getting emotional, the media will take us all to the bank.

For months I've begged/argued/cajoled the Right to pull away from the RINO press and their ratings getting tactics. I had hoped that the one good thing to come out of the 2006 lost would be the curtailing of the media's influence...but the RINO media are determined to rule the WH and Congress via popularity polls.

Unfortunately,this hysteria over a bill no one has really read is a strong indication that this won't change anytime soon.

I LOATHE and I do mean loathe Carter. I barely remember Reagan (sorry) and other than the oval office incident, Clintons's existance barely register in my memory. But Carter...the man was the worst leader ever because he did the unforgivable...he took America's pride and sold it on the ebay of World opinion.

If the dems win, it will be like having Carter back in the WH...appease, disarm...only in a much more dangerous world...

Please...I am already depressed...

Where did you see Krauthammer's piece? I thought he was positive about the bill. I'd like to see his comments, and why he disagrees.

The good news is, these guys can probably get the attention of the right people to get some changes done.

Pelosi isn't happy, so there must be something good in it! LOL

Sorry to ruin your day...LOL

When this bill goes away, and I think it will, what's going to be left that everyone will remember? People will talk about how everyone reacted to it. And they will characterize/stereotype each side based on the rhetoric. That's what makes me sad. I hear that train a comin'.

We need to refocus the discussion. Pound it in the ground that we want a fence FIRST, then talk. People can understand that.

You made a deal...you said you'd wait to see what the bill says...and it looks like the bill may go thru months of change before and if it becomes law.

So for now...we'll go back to the promise of an 800 mile fence that hasn't been built yet and the same illegal immigration law that we have now.

Ah Doc? How does keeping the status quo help secure the borders?

And you do know that in 18 months...all bets will be off and the Dems will take away the stiff employer penalties and make those future Dem voters feel right at home under their tent.

that is honest.

Let me ask you a question...so you tar & feather makers of the immigration reform bill...now what?

The GOP no longer holds the majority Doc...and the Dems want to make Hispanics (the largest population btw) the same kind of "count on them" voting block as the Blacks...and with a Dem Congress and a Dem WH...do you think there's ANY chance of getting the kind of bill that Newt will think is "great"?

Tell me Doc please, how smart is this?

I just went and watched Newt's piece on immigration, and it makes common sense.

We don't need this crappy bill, we need a few thousand bulldozers, a few thousand miles of concertina barbed wire, billions of tons of cement, hundreds of thousands of legal workers with valid SSN's building that fence now, complete with machine gun turrets and minefields if necessary. Once completed, then we can look at the next step.

Ok...but who's going to give this you?

The GOP MINORITY???

You didn't answer my question...WHO is going to give you the kind of bill you want...YOUR beloved GOP is in the MINORITY.

Take a stand, grow a back bone, show the base of GOP that you have principles...

AND RUN SMACK into the Dem MAJORITY who will simply tell you NO.

actually it is more like having a chance at two players that can take you to the playoffs...
you turn them both down, and stick with your loyal, good players who try as they might, just can't get you the numbers to win.

So you forfeit the game and next season...none of the young, upcoming, great players want to play for a team that loses...so they sign with someone else.

I'm not ready to tie the election to passing the bill. Why are you adamant about this, why are you sure we'll lose if it doesn't pass?

I think you know by now that I am the kind of person that looks at the bottom line...exactly what can I hope to accomplish by whatever actions I take.

And Dave, even if I and every single person on the Right agreed with you on this issue...the GOP STILL has to get pass the Dem majority.

So how do I know if we kill this bill, we won't get another bill to our liking?

Because the only chance we'll get is if we get a big enough GOP majority...and the RINO press and their minions are determined to destroy the whole darn party...

You do realize that the MSM is going to forever portray the Right as being sanctimonious Mexican haters...and that this issue is helping to cement that idea right?

But you REALLY think the MSM isn't going to use this against whoever wins the GOP nomination the same way Rather used a 30 year story to try to destroy Bush in 2004?

You (the fan) has "heard" from sports writers you think are pretty smart that the two players being offered can play ball but MAY cause trouble so the team may not make it to the playoffs.

Now you can either "trust" the word of the "maybe" of the sports writers or you can support one or both of the players--if you take the word of the sports writers...your team got no chance of making it to the playoffs...if you take a chance, you might still not win it all but at least you have a shot.

Go ahead Doc as a TRUE sports fan...what do you choose, lose or possible championship?

media has to cater to their base, many "nutters" in the group. They will continue with the Mier/Dubai type frenzy and destroy the GOP like they did prior to '06, because their ratings are more important than the future of our country. Even Rush is doing it now.

Your 4th point is way too sensible... Elect more conservatives to stop the Dems? Nooooo! We must punish conservatives to teach them a lesson!!!

You are correct about the MSM, BUT, Bush still won, twice. There is more at work than the MSM.

Sandra, yes elect more conservatives, but the party keeps putting up RINOS in the elections. And, this notion of electing conservatives makes the current pres. nominee leaders in the GOP look awkward.

I don't mean to sound cynical, but Bush won twice because he looked centrist to the population at large. That very attribute, is what has made the conservative base try to destroy him.

We need more conservatives of all stripes in the House and the Senate to get veto proof majorities. When more conservatives run, we can the replace the RINOS.

In my wildest dreams I don't believe that this will happen.

But you REALLY think the MSM isn't going to use this against whoever wins the GOP nomination the same way Rather used a 30 year story to try to destroy Bush in 2004?

And Bush won twice because the RINO press and their minions backed him instead of joining the MSM in attacking him.

I heard McCain say something today that rather shook me...he said if it wasn't for the WOT, he wouldn't be running for President.

He had been talking about how the base treated their leaders and I thought this kind of hysteria will drive away not just the Indys, Dems who may have joined the Right on the WOT, and the core of Reps...it will drive all the men (and women) of courage and principle from running for office.

You may not agree with McCain but you cannot say that he is not a man that will risk all for what he believes is right for America.

Of course the MSM will use the words of the extremists on the Right, why wouldn't they. That's why I'm urging that the focus shifts to what you suggested a long time ago, security and law & order. It may be possible to shift the debate within the RINO media if the GOP makes some smart moves.

And I agree that the nativist racists need to be marginalized. That could be addressed in the next GOP debate.

You give McCain credit, I respect his beliefs, but his bill threatens the future of our country if not changed from the way it is currently written. And I don't hear the base complaining about Rep. Boehner, he sees the reality here.

fair enough.

My frustration with the Right is running smack into your earnest effort to do what McCain did...get people to compromise.

Dave, it isn't McCain's bill that will hurt this nation...it's the perceived Right's reaction to it.

It was "killed" the moment it was announce on hearsay and was a knee jerk reaction to the idea of compromise...well what did anyone expect? We could have gotten almost anything we wanted when we held the majority but the extremes demanded more than reasonable absolutes like Hunter offered.

The thing that gets me, honestly, the thing that makes me truly wonder about the stupidity of the Right is this: THEY ARE NO LONGER THE MAJORITY but are demanding that everyone of their minority denounce this bill and kill it...for what exactly?

Give me one person that can push the kind of bill you want thru this Dem Majority and you got my support to kill this bill. I believe that Bush can do wonders (he's already done so) but even if he had a ephiphany, there is no way that he could convince the Dems to give up the future's largest voting block.

And remember, they LOST to Bush on the war...like with Roberts/Miers/Alito...they are determined to save face "next round".

I now think Hunter's criminal angle is too late. The Dems have seen how the Right implodes every time this issue is mentioned--and they will use it until it destroys the GOP.

Again, I think we need to ask ourselves WHY is the RINO media and their minions determined to help them...because that is exactly what THIS issue is doing.

And don't tell me about "principles" and standing up for what they believe is right.

I KNOW the evil of abortion. As a woman I resent this con as all get out. But I--and I suspect many pro-lifers will, IF it becomes necessary, put this issue aside TO WIN THE WOT.

The same MUST be asked of other absolutes.

As you pointed out many times...politics IS about compromise.

Which is what this bill is about--and considering what the GOP minority is up against--I'd say that McCain did a pretty darn good job.

One of the things I kept hearing from the other senators is that they tried to get what Hewitt and his minions wanted last year when they held the majority...but it got shot down by Tancredo and his minions.

And again Dave...I really want to understand...how is killing a bill that will give us some of what we want--and is a heck of a lot better than what we've got--going to help our cause?

This is like saying..."no" to supporting that partial birth abortion ban bill...we want a total reversal of Roe vs. Wade and nothing less. How idiotic...we save what we can and do what we can within the boundaries of reality.

Dave, tell me, have you read the bill? The pro-lifers would LOVE something that gives us a tenth of what is being proposed to address the border situation.

Perhaps, when that issue has spent 30 years in political wilderness, their absolutes will also be grateful for the courage of men like Bush and McCain.

Of course by then, we'll have triple the amount of illegals and a voting block of victimized Hispanics that will never vote GOP...even if we appoint a Hispanic Secretary of State.

And you and I will remember this moment in political history and have only "I told you so" to comfort us.

"And then we can start to discuss real, viable solutions to the problem of the illegal alien invasion from the south."

Doc...answer the question...THEN what? We can "discuss" it all we want, but eventually we STILL have to get it pass a Dem majority...

(And in the meantime...the illegal immigration situation is growing and bleeding).

As I told Dave...I'm all on board...just tell me how we convince the Dem majority to make the Right happy.

1- Do nothing: not possible...the "something" has already been done. A sports newcaster "heard" that a team was about to sign someone with a rep of being a trouble maker. He caused the fan base to go balistic. Turns out the guy wasn't half as bad as the jock wannabe claimed but other writers had already jumped on the band wagon and now the team is looking like a bunch of troublemakers and the sponsers are thinking about cutting their support.

2- Sign the troublemaker: and show the sponsers that your coaches can control their players and the fan base--not the other way around.

3- Seek out other players: yeah right and what player good enough to make a difference will want to play for a team that follow sports writers that work on rumors and try to tell their coaches how to run the team?

4- The fan base led by the "smart guys" destroy the only team that will represent your city/interest. As you watch others on t.v. gain your dreams...you "comfort" yourself that you stood on principles of "real" football.

Football Doc...is like politics...you're only as good as your last victory...and you can't live off memories of glory.

Look, I'm seeing this as Lose/Lose. The GOP never did anything about this or anything else because they didn't have a majority of conservatives. Yes, they can't pass a bill. But to allow this one to pass is the same as pulling the trigger on a revolver held against your head. The ideas sound good, but the details say different. Have you looked into what it says, and means? Your support for this bill shocks me, frankly, because this would lead to an America that will surely be beaten in the WOT and decline into an ineffective euro style quasi muslim state.

I never said I supported this bill; in fact I have said, just give me ONE reason to believe that we can get a bill more to our liking pass the Dem majority and I'm all for killing it.

and I was just warming up...lol.