The Ugly Conservative

I recently wrote a column where I took a supposedly "principled Christian social conservative" to task. I said that he might be conservative in various ways but he certainly was not a Christian -- nor was he particulary social. I posted it, and then I took it down. It was not untrue in any way, but it probably was uncharitable. I think your column should be required reading for all conservatives. They might not like me for recommending it, but there are many things more important than being well-liked. I was one of the first bloggers in America to recommend that Sen. Larry Craig resign. I should have added that he should have apologized also for impersonating a Christian conservative. Some political con-men (Craig, Mark Foley, David Vitter, and others) believe we social conservatives are easy marks, and there's evidence that they're right. At times, it seems to comfort us somehow when conservative politicians lie to us. They say they're pro-life, and we believe them -- in spite of evidence that they believe hardly anything at all.

On the more pleasant side, support for Sarah Palin is pouring in -- about a blogger-a-day signing up. The articles (by Kazoo and David Anderson) that I mention today, Friday, are very worth reading and give good insight into the thinking of the kind of good people (and you're one of the "goodest," Sanity) who support Sarah. Read the last paragraph where I talk about what I intend to do if the presidential candidate and Sarah lose in 2008. Not to be coy, I say that will be the time to make sure that Sarah runs against Mrs. Clinton in 2012. Life is a lot of fun isn't it?

steve
http://camp2008victorya.blogspot.com/

I never confuse "Charity" with "Christianity". I believe that God is love but I never forget that he is also just. I understand that God brings peace to the soul but does not interfere with mankine's choice to make war.

My Christianity doesn't prevent me from getting angry and fed up with a group of people intent on losing at a time when America is at war.

Sanity, on adam's site (http://palinforvp.blogspot.com, there's a fine first-person account from one of Sarah's constituents, who gives a good insight into what a wonderful person the governor is. On my site, a couple of things: THREE columns from Palin backers (two new ones) about why they believe she is the best choice for VP (David and Kazoo wrote them). Also, I retract my call for Sen. Craig to resign. (Yes, I know he did resign.) In reading the ENTIRE transcript of Craig's exchange with the policeman, it struck me that nothing worthy of the term "crime" ever occurred. My wife tells me she believes he was set-up and entrapped. I regret ever calling for him to resign. Craig made a MAJOR mistake in pleading guilty to the misdemeanor.

steve

I'm not a fan of Craig...frankly I don't care what he does in his personal life...which I believe is in line with the rest of the non-conservative public.

I am angry as all get out because this sanctimonious BS is going to LOSE the GOP the WH in 2008.

Now, perhaps most of the so called "concern" people on the Right may claim to care about winning the WOT, but I REALLY comprehend what we will lose, (America and the rest of the free world) if we do not continue this fight.

It is why I am considering voting for a guy who donated to the abortion mill Planned Parenthood. It is why I am backing Palin and don't really give a rip if she mouths all the right stuff. I am looking at what she is and what she can offer. Call it fluff, call it gold, but she has the potential to bring back the non-conservative that got turned off by all the racist and lack of loyalty exhibited by the RINO press.

The Dems have shown themselves to be clueless about the Islamic threat and we cannot afford to allow them to be Commander of the world greatest military power.

That means we LOSE the attitude of sanctimonious BS and racism.

When that bomb takes out L.A. or Chicago or the WH, I can promise that job protectionism and culture fear of the illegal immigration issue...and gay rights and yes even abortion will be placed in the same area that the ACLU went the week after 9/11...in the BACK GROUND tolerating the people who found God and their Americanism.

My biggest complaint is that it should NOT take a bomb.

We are one race, one nation, and for the love of all sense...we should be trying to keep the WH not because we are morally superior but because we are the only ones that is supposed to get it...this is a war we cannot lose.

The Dems know they are weak on the war, so they will get rid of Republicans one by one, as you said. They have been successful using the morality argument. Conservatives fall for that, expecting their leaders to be sinless.

We will wake up on Nov. 8 with the liars and cheats in complete power and the WOT down the drain. It will be back to pre 9/11. All because conservatives expect perfection.

"The perfect is the enemy of the good."

I'm not quite sure where we go from here. True, there seems to be quite a number of bloggers that are speaking out against this self destruction but most of the RINO press are STILL pushing the racist and sanctimonious buttons.

And Sandra, if it weren't for the war, I'd sit out this next election...that is how much I really dislike all this ugliness.

One can only imagine the average voter...busy with family and kids and seeing the Right ONCE again attacking their own...

or talk radio represents most conservatives. Did you hear about the Townhall straw poll here in Texas? Duncan Hunter won. That just goes to show....

You saw in my communications with whats-her-name, the Ron Paul advocate, where I stand on the War on Terror and the political cynics who would trade the lives of American soldiers for a few votes. The guy who deserted Huckabee (and has also deserted Palin because he doesn't like . . . me) is a perfect example of the mess we're in. Huckabee makes one small effort to attract Hispanic votes, and the anti-immigrant folks start deserting him. Not a pretty sight.

Mike is a better man than his supporters give him credit for, and they will exact what revenge they can. Sickening stuff.

Sanity, if you do want to sit this out I will understand completely. Sarah's statement about "having a servant's heart" tells volumes about her quality. She's better than the Republican Party deserves.

steve

in fact I want to sit out the next 2 elections while Queen Hill makes herself comfortable and the illegal immigration absolutists help her.

But there's a "small" matter of the war...and as long as America is fighting one, I'll be pushing for the GOP ticket.

I like Mike also; especially since he has gone out of his way not to pander to the racist rhetoric...but the absolutes will crucify him...and Fred...and Rudy...and anyone that has a ghost of a chance of winning.

The only candidate they will support is one the rest of America will never vote for...

that McCain who was counted down and out due to immigration is now coming back, because of the War. I do believe that most conservatives get this, and the ones that don't are on the fringe. They just have louder voices.

stands a chance...he'd be like Dole.

I was listening to Rudy--and I hate to say this but I think I am leaning toward voting for the guy. For a pro-lifer that is saying a lot.

But I liked the way he handled Hugh and we need someone that isn't very nice to tell those RINOs where to stick it.

I do think the Dems are doing a nice job in uniting the Right...not the absolutes or the purist but the regular, practical people who are offended by the Dems treatment of the General. I never could understand why the Dems don't get that there are 1 million military and all of them have family and friends...and millions more in the National Guard who resent the implication that Bush didn't "serve his country" because he was in the guard.

Now all we have to do is wait...sooner or later, they will bring up illegal immigration...let's see if the absolutes finally get it.

As Jim said...no GOP, no WOT.

It's really as simple as that.

sanity writes: "And talk about being idiotic...we get handed the first bill that would make a serious attempt to indentify everyone in America and it gets tanked because it gave Mexicans (after 12 years of probation and heavy fines) a path to citizenship. The northern border is so porus that White Canadians cross on a weekly basis (and visa-versa) and are as Liberal as they come--but conservatives don't care about THOSE illegals.

Sorry--spin it anyway you want--it reeked of racism...and it hand delivered the largest racial voting block to the party that sees no reason to finish the war on terror."

Interesting concept that discrimination against myself (a disabled veteran) and my wife (legal immigrant) is considered spin. That bill provide benefits that are not provided to nor available for veterans, legal immigrants, or citizens. It also provided a path to citizenship for people that did not meet the same standard that all legal immigrants are required to meet.

Sorry but you have fallen for the bigoted spin of the socialist party that believes the military is only a socialized jobs program.

Do you honestly believe that we are going to FIND 12 million people who are underground, MARCH them across the border, anger the minorities (yeah, ALL of them who has issues of White racism) and KEEP the WH in time of war?

You've seen the way the Dems treat our troops...you've seen the kind of "border control" the Dems want...so tell me, EXACTLY how attacking the ONLY VIABLE party that wants to win the war on terror is helping YOUR cause?

Tell me exactly why the identifying of those 12 million, the stiff finds for employers who hire illegals, the extended wall--all the things you absolutes insisted you wanted--was worth losing because you didn't want 12 million illegals to have a way...a financially feasble way...to become legal?

Then tell me it had nothing to do with race.

You wrote:
"-That bill provide benefits that are not provided to nor available for veterans, legal immigrants, or citizens."

As far as I was aware it gave them the same access when all was said and done, what are the new benefits on offer under the guestworker program?

Sanity102 writes: "Do you honestly believe that we are going to FIND 12 million people who are underground, MARCH them across the border, anger the minorities (yeah, ALL of them who has issues of White racism) and KEEP the WH in time of war?"

No, I honestly believe that if I and my legal immigrant wife have to live by the law then everyone should also live by the law. Address the problems first like the criminal element not being identified when they are arrested. If you want a "guest worker" program then fine but you need to address those that would not be eligible. And if the "guest worker" does not meet the legal requirements for entry into the country (I would grant amnesty for the illegal entry) then yes they should be returned.

Sanity102 writes: "You've seen the way the Dems treat our troops...you've seen the kind of "border control" the Dems want...so tell me, EXACTLY how attacking the ONLY VIABLE party that wants to win the war on terror is helping YOUR cause?"

I know how the Dems treat the military seeing as I served for over 22 years, retired disable vet, and a daughter that is an active Marine. I also live in a border state and most of those minorities here are tired of the damage and criminal acts caused by illegal immigrants.

Sanity102 writes: "Do you honestly believe that we are going to FIND 12 million people who are underground, MARCH them across the border, anger the minorities (yeah, ALL of them who has issues of White racism) and KEEP the WH in time of war?"

No, I honestly believe that if I and my legal immigrant wife have to live by the law then everyone should also live by the law. Address the problems first like the criminal element not being identified when they are arrested. If you want a "guest worker" program then fine but you need to address those that would not be eligible. And if the "guest worker" does not meet the legal requirements for entry into the country (I would grant amnesty for the illegal entry) then yes they should be returned.

Sanity102 writes: "You've seen the way the Dems treat our troops...you've seen the kind of "border control" the Dems want...so tell me, EXACTLY how attacking the ONLY VIABLE party that wants to win the war on terror is helping YOUR cause?"

I know how the Dems treat the military seeing as I served for over 22 years, retired disabled vet, and a daughter that is an active Marine. I also live in a border state and most of those minorities here are tired of the damage and criminal acts caused by illegal immigrants. Funny how you call it an attack just because I oppose the legalization of criminals. That seems to be an oxymoron.

Sorry for the double post!

Sanity102 writes: "Tell me exactly why the identifying of those 12 million, the stiff finds for employers who hire illegals, the extended wall--all the things you absolutes insisted you wanted--was worth losing because you didn't want 12 million illegals to have a way...a financially feasble way...to become legal?"

Interesting that you seem to forget about little things like "liberty and JUSTICE for all" in the interest of making nice. I will tell you exactly why because there was nothing in the bill that dealt with enforcement issues. It was basically a get out of jail free card that jeopardizes the American public as a whole. It also discriminates against veterans, US citizens, and legal immigrants.

Sanity102 writes: "Then tell me it had nothing to do with race."

IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE!!! Keep on believing that those 12 million are all of Hispanic origin unfortunately that is not the case.

Flame wrote:"-That bill provide benefits that are not provided to nor available for veterans, legal immigrants, or citizens."

Jim wrote: "As far as I was aware it gave them the same access when all was said and done, what are the new benefits on offer under the guestworker program?"

Just a few to start:
1. Admittance of family members immediately while family members of veterans, legal immigrants, and US citizens must wait for ~7-10 years.
2. Financial assistance which is denied to veterans, legal immigrants, and citizens.
3. Medical assistance which is denied to veterans, legal immigrants, and citizens.
4. Education benefits which are denied to veterans, legal immigrants, and citizens. Not to mention tuition discounts and grants.
5. No background check, no job requirement, no sponsor, no medical insurance, etc. All of which must be passed before one is granted a legal entry visa for fiancee/wife, work, school, etc.

These are just a few. BTW, I am a retired disabled veteran married to a legal immigrant and have been through the process from start to finish. There are many issues that were not addressed in the comprehensive "Immigration Reform" bill including the lack of any enforcement especially for dealing with the criminal element which is taking up ~25% of our prisons and the majority of the violent gangs. It also does not address the excessive cost to our social systems like medical, education, police, nor the "sanctuary" cities which place the lives of people in greater danger.

So let me get this straight...you are upset because your wife is following the law and this bill was going to PENALIZE illegals with fines and what amounts to probation?

Ah, you're one of those who pretend that any penalty short of throwing them out of the country or lining them up and shooting them is "amnesty"...excuse me, but I don't consider it "amnesty" when I have to fork over $200 for a speeding ticket (yes speeding IS breaking the law JUST like crossing the border, BOTH are misdemeanors.) And let's talk about JUSTICE...what is so JUST about not giving someone who has done more than just marry an American (like doing back breaking farm work) a way to STOP breaking the law?

Oh I am well aware that the 12 million illegals aren't all Hispanics...are you? Funny how I never hear about the NORTHERN border...nor about the people on BOTH sides of the Canadian/American border who regularly BREAK THE LAW with their weekend shopping trip...going to the doctor...getting cheap meds.

It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they are White does it?

Sorry Flame...but it just isn't washing. If this isn't about race...if it truly is all about breaking the law...then let's hear it with just as much passion about the Canadian and American law breakers.

And about your serving in the military...I've always admired those who serve, not just the military but cops and firemen...perhaps because they've done what I cannot see myself doing.

But like preachers and priests, serving doesn't automatically make people honorable or smarter. Cases in point: Clark and Murtha.

Yes, you "paid" for the right to have an opinion and to express it...but more, you paid for MY right to disagree.

You may have not wanted to...you may have been one of those that got drafted.

But paid you did.

And I am exercizing that right--and the right to keep a promise I made to a Vietnam Vet to not allow another generation to be told that they died for nothing...to be treated like baby killers.

The Dems will do this and lose the WOT.

Nothing, not even the hatred of illegals is worth allowing a Dem to be Commander in Chief.

Where on earth do you get your ideas?

Illegal immigrants use free clinics and educational assistance are mostly for foreign students that are here LEGALLY.

"Assistance" is an American/European concept...immigrants (like your ancestors and mine) work 12 hour days and social security is a horde of kids that support and care for the elderly only after the parent's back is unable to bend and his/her eyes are too old to see.

In fact, don't you recognize the illegal tales? They're a rehashing of the old welfare tales of "good for nothing" AMERICANS sitting on their butt, getting knocked up, and doing all kinds of "criminal activity".

There aren't hordes of illegals in prisons...they're LOTS of Black AMERICANS in the prison and out on the streets causing problems...but I guess you can't demand that THEY be sent back to Africa or whatever huh?

You might be accused of being racist...

As I said, you don't hear old Emma Lazurus quoted much these days: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." I don't know whether my ancestors got here legally or not. Guess what? I don't give a . . . hoot. You're right on target that the same old biases ("No Irish Need Apply!") have raised up their ugly heads. "The more things change, the more they remain the same." I heard one old Caucasian racist in Arizona complaining that illegals cost the state $1.4 billion per year. But it turns out the illegals create wealth totaling $29 billion. The good old white racist (and where did his ancestors come from? Not Phoenix. Well, he forgot to add the $29 billion. As for me, I'll stick with Emma Lazurus.

steve maloney

In regards to your points Flame

1. Admittance of family members immediately while family members of veterans, legal immigrants, and US citizens must wait for ~7-10 years.

Section 527 and sections 501-512 clearing immigration backlog. In addition section 218a subsection m 1 deals with the definitions of family and therefore curtails the chain immigration where slowly more and more extended family enter the US.

2. Financial assistance which is denied to veterans, legal immigrants, and citizens.

Do you refer to section 723 court grants are for the immigrant to understand the case against them? Not a grant I would like to receive. Or is it: Section 643 The $500 grant to legal immigrants to assist naturalization that your wife is eligable for?

3. Medical assistance which is denied to veterans, legal immigrants, and citizens.

Section 218a subsection m2b referring to the medical paid for by the immigrant and failure to comply means no entry, is that what you refer to?

I will come back to the other points.

4. Education benefits which are denied to veterans, legal immigrants, and citizens. Not to mention tuition discounts and grants.

Back to sections 642 and 643 are we, by the way why didn't you support this? You would have been $500 better off.

5. No background check, no job requirement, no sponsor, no medical insurance, etc. All of which must be passed before one is granted a legal entry visa for fiancee/wife, work, school, etc

Funny but I could have swore....oh yeah... silly me: Section 218a subsection d background checks
and section 218a subsection m 2c background checks for family. Section 402 subsection bb defines the job as one that cannot be filled by unemployed people within the US, that is section 404 offers employment to US workers 90 days before immigrant. Thus making the employer the sponsor.

And the un numbered 6)lack of any enforcement especially for dealing with the criminal element which is taking up ~25% of our prisons and the majority of the violent gangs.

So Section 210 and section 218 to provide states additional funding to combat crime related to immigration is not good enough or Sections 233 to 235 which make more space available in Federal prisons, speed up transfer of illegals from state to federal prisons and accelerate deportations out of those fedeal prisons don't cover it?

4. Education benefits which are denied to veterans, legal immigrants, and citizens. Not to mention tuition discounts and grants.

Back to sections 642 and 643 are we, by the way why didn't you support this? You would have been $500 better off.

5. No background check, no job requirement, no sponsor, no medical insurance, etc. All of which must be passed before one is granted a legal entry visa for fiancee/wife, work, school, etc

Funny but I could have swore....oh yeah... silly me: Section 218a subsection d background checks
and section 218a subsection m 2c background checks for family. Section 402 subsection bb defines the job as one that cannot be filled by unemployed people within the US, that is section 404 offers employment to US workers 90 days before immigrant. Thus making the employer the sponsor.

And the un numbered 6)lack of any enforcement especially for dealing with the criminal element which is taking up ~25% of our prisons and the majority of the violent gangs.

So Section 210 and section 218 to provide states additional funding to combat crime related to immigration is not good enough or Sections 233 to 235 which make more space available in Federal prisons, speed up transfer of illegals from state to federal prisons and accelerate deportations out of those fedeal prisons don't cover it?

Sorry flame but I get so excited when finally having someone I can simply refer to texts rather than go into long explanations because they haven't even bothered to do even cursory research.

They didn't have to "bother"...their "leaders", the ex-lawyers, talk show host TOLD them what the bill "said" and what to "think" about it.

On this, they risked the WOT and this nation being ruled by Liberals who have no value for pre-born babies or our troops.

Sandra tried to get a discussion going and referred to parts of the bill, but they wouldn't even try...

Sanity wrote "...Sorry Flame...but it just isn't washing. If this isn't about race...if it truly is all about breaking the law...then let's hear it with just as much passion about the Canadian and American law breakers."

It appears that your idea of discussion is through insult and misrepresentation of what others have written. I feel sorry for you that you have to use race baiting and bigotry to support your position.

Sanity writes "Illegal immigrants use free clinics and educational assistance are mostly for foreign students that are here LEGALLY."

I would suggest that you use your precious rights and actually research the issue. Educational assistance is provided to illegal immigrants while some legal immigrants may be eligible. And FREE CLINICS are not free, Congress appropriates over 1 BILLION a year just for illegal immigrants use of clinics and emergency rooms.

Sanity writes "There aren't hordes of illegals in prisons...they're LOTS of Black AMERICANS in the prison and out on the streets causing problems...but I guess you can't demand that THEY be sent back to Africa or whatever huh?"

Nice try Sanity but you are quite mistaken. There is over 250,000 that are accounted for and that does not include those in states where it is illegal to ask/report on the immigration status of those that are convicted.

Sanity writes "You might be accused of being racist..."

Again I feel sorry that you can not discuss an issue, instead you use race baiting and bigotry to support your position.

wrote: "Sorry for double post
Sorry flame but I get so excited when finally having someone I can simply refer to texts rather than go into long explanations because they haven't even bothered to do even cursory research."

Yeh, I recognize sarcasm when I see it. :) I was more inclined toward what is actually occurring presently with ~1-2 years wait on background checks, with backlog of visa requests, actual medical assistance, etc. in comparison with the legislation.

What I found amusing was that I am expected to believe that this legislation would not only fix the problem that are faced with legal immigrants (thought DHS was doing that already) but would be able to process ~12 million illegals with no enforcement provisions. Please remember in your excitement to post, that while you are very conversant with all the bill, that I am conversant with the reality. Currently they can't even process the applications for change of status, or naturalization within the timeline established by statute. Please tell me why I should support more statutes that claim they will fix the problems.

You want a guest worker program, fine then get the security and enforcement issues set up whereby the problem doesn't continue and convince us that they will be accomplished. I am quite aware of the need for Congress to separately budget the funding for the programs so while the AMNESTY takes affect immediately, the rest might never get funded, similar to the border "fence".

Be as offended as you like...the fact is that WITHOUT putting in just as much passion to the law breakers in the north, your objection to MEXICANS appears racist.

Every time you allow that kind of talk about "brown people" and accusations of hand outs and diseases coming from the SOUTH, you perpetuate the idea that conservatives are bigots and racist.

And every time you talk about job protection and government handouts, you sound like a Liberal instead of someone who believes in the ability of each individual to make it on their own.

I don't know where you get your information but "Free Clinics" by definition are “private, non-profit, community based organizations that provide medical, dental, pharmaceutical and/or mental health services at little or no cost to low-income, uninsured and underinsured people" There are no signs saying "no vets, no legals, no Americans need apply".

In fact, PLEASE do your research; according to the Bureau of Justice, almost 11% of Black males are serving time, compared to 2.4% Hispanic....of that 2.4%, almost all are "legal".

"Can't discuss this"? I wasn't the one that used the term "useful idiocy" but I agree, when you take the word of a bunch of has been lawyers turned radio talk show hosts...who has zero concept of the idea of loyalty and support...when you don't bother to read exactly what is in that bill before deciding to destroy it...when you put your issue over the War on Terror and allow Dems that won't even give your issue a hearing to take over Congress and the WH...

yeah, I would say that is idiotic in the extreme.

Again Flame..."just curious"...just what did your tantrum accomplish? Is Tancredo running neck and neck with Hillary? Are the politicians lining up to ship out the 12 million illegals? Are the non-conservatives cheering your "principled" stand?

Or has your tantrum just doomed the only party that is serious on the WOT...and made sure that the party that believes in cut and running, gay marriages, tearing down any wall that is being built at the South, giving real amnesty to illegals and having another generation of soldiers be branded baby killers controlling Congress and the WH?

Whatever government handouts you think you're entitled to...whatever job protection you are supporting....whatever unfair government practice you blame Hispanics for...is any of that worth 4 to 8 years of Democratic rule?

As for "nice try"...Flame, try and try again...you can't attack the Hispanic south and not the White north...and not sound racist.

In fact, the "trying" isn't even "nice".

But let's at least make an effor to be honest...you don't feel sorry for me...you're too busy trying to soothe that conscience of yours that knows racism when he hears it.

Sanity102 writes: "As for "nice try"...Flame, try and try again...you can't attack the Hispanic south and not the White north...and not sound racist. In fact, the "trying" isn't even "nice". But let's at least make an effor to be honest...you don't feel sorry for me...you're too busy trying to soothe that conscience of yours that knows racism when he hears it."

Yes, let's at least make an effort to be honest. Look through the posts and see who states race, racism, brown people, etc. And whose comments states there is a difference between illegal immigrants. Each and every post that contains those comments are yours. Your bigotry taints your reading of, and commenting on, other people's posts.

Take your own advice and be honest.

I don't need handouts. All I want to see is that citizens, veterans, and legal immigrants receive equal treatment under the law instead of vague, legal, mumbo-jumbo. You claim this bill would have been great, with no enforcement, yet how many laws are already on the books, with very similar requirements, that have yet to be funded or enforced?

if you look carefully, I've said "appears"...why? Because I truly hate to think that the side that I am fighting for are racist bigots...but really, you've given no reason for non-conservatives, main stream Republicans, or Independents to think otherwise. Your passion is all about the SOUTH not the North who also breaks laws and take jobs. In fact the idea of job protection and unlimited spending for a GOVERNMENT program isn't conservative at all...so if it's not the race, then why the difference in your feelings toward the south and the north borders?

what exactly do you expect from the government (are you SURE you're a conservative?) that only southern border illegals are getting? Tell me what EXACTLY is the Mexicans getting that is exclusively for them?

Are they given priority to attend ivy league schools and great jobs...no those are Blacks and women.

Are they given a pass when they attack someone just because he's a male and white? Once again Blacks and women.

Do thousands of people march and demand freedom for a group of illegals who beat up a White boy...no those were Blacks.

Are there tons of sitcoms with only Hispanics...without even the token White person? Again Blacks.

Is there a large percentage of Black gangs in all the cities of America? Absolutely.

White males may have something to be angry about...white males may feel unfairly treated by government programs and societies' political correctness...but it isn't the Hispanic that is the problem.

And enforcement means what exactly? The bill had ear marked millions for border patrol and mobilization of the National Guard on all the border states to the South. (Somehow I doubt if the Northern border states would take too kindly to keeping their trading partners from making weekly trips) If you mean that there was nothing in the bill to round up the Mexicans, shoot them, and/or shipping them back to Mexico...yes you're right about that.

Flame...you came to MY blog and pretended to be "curious"...I did not come to yours. If you feel that I am incapable of being honest, then don't waste your time--or mine

I won't waste your time or mine, since you are stuck with your unsubstantiated accusations based not on what someone has written but based on your own writing. I feel sympathy for you.

before you leave...you don't feel anything remotely kind or Christian for me nor were you merely curious.

Those ARE lies.

Which is why you will always lose...elections, discussions, and points.

Why try when I have been honest unlike yourself who continues to push your bigotry on anyone that opposes your view. I have pointed out to you that there is nothing in what I have written that would lead anyone to the conclusions that you have reached. As to what you consider a Christian, part of being a Christian is to not bear false witness, which is exactly what you have accomplished. I also stated my sympathy for you. Perhaps I should have said that you are on my prayer list and that I hope you would see what you are writing. I would suggest that some contemplation of the Scriptures would be in order. Perhaps then you will understand who has been lying here. One final time, look at what has been written, look who brings race into the discussion, look who brings place of birth into the discussion, look who calls everyone that opposes him a bigot, then perhaps you will understand. Instead of claiming Christianity, you should practice it!

that it isn't I who is upsetting you?

Whether or not, YOU are being racist is for you to decide. All I can tell you is that is how it APPEARS to me and to the MILLIONS of minorities that watch the vitriolic rhetoric about the SOUTH border, NOT the NORTH...who listens to this twist of the word "amnesty" and about "law breakers" and care little about the breaking of the SAME law by Canadians and Americans who cross the northern border on a daily basis...who sees a group of people of the SAME race being accused of everything under the sun, as though we are all descendants of American Indians and didn't bring our own illnesses and drained the nation's economy...and see not CHRISTIAN concern or patriotic law abidding people but racism in it's ugliest form because it is claimed to be done in the name of America and her culture.

Keep talking Flame...I am seeing no difference between your rhetoric than the "big government, hang the cost" Liberals...just where do you think this Democratic Congress and their soon to be Democratic WH is going to find the money for that wall, border control AND to ship those people back to Mexico...IF they didn't see the stupidity in alienating what is soon to be the largest racial voting block?

No Flame, the accusation isn't a lie nor is it "bearing false witness"...it is exressing a possibility to someone who claimed to be "just curious"...I can't help it if you saw yourself in that possibility and got all upset.

sanity writes: "Keep talking Flame...I am seeing no difference between your rhetoric than the "big government, hang the cost" Liberals.."

Then either you did not read what I wrote or you filtered it with your ideology. Either way, that is your problem not mine.

sanity writes: "No Flame, the accusation isn't a lie nor is it "bearing false witness"...it is exressing a possibility to someone who claimed to be "just curious"...I can't help it if you saw yourself in that possibility and got all upset."

No my friend, the accusation is bearing false witness against me. Once might be expressing an opinion but to continue making the accusation based not on what I wrote but on your opinion is a lie.

I will make you final reference to you: "I stated that I have no problem with a guest worker program but they need to meet the requirements for entry that everyone else is required to meet." No where in my comments is there reference to nationality or border, it does however include EVERYONE.

And I can't help it if you insist on placing your biases ahead of what is written in a discussion. I continued because I thought you wanted discussion, instead I received insults and false accusations. It is because of actions like yours (very similar to the liberals that you condemn) that the conservatives might not win.

IF your requirements INCLUDE all law breakers, north and south (and east and west) then you are NOT part of the ugly conservatives that cost the only party that is serious about the WOT Congress and the WH and you are not, in my book, racist.

If you speak up each time someone tries to bang all of America's ills on to the illegals from the South, then again this does not pertain to you.

The problem is that this issue HAS painted YOU and I (and I'm not even a Republican) as racist and bigoted precisely because we are on the Right.

It is an issue that has offended main stream GOP, Independents like me, Blacks, Hispanics and Pro-life Democrats...all of which voted for Bush.

It will kill the only viable party that is conservative and leave us with only Democrats that hate the military.

Unless...

We do what we would do if the same type of rhetoric was being said about Black or women...we step forward and let the racist sounding talk show hosts and their minions know that they do NOT represent us.

How about it? Looking forward to reading your posts of courageous support of non-racial border control that will come down EQUALLY hard on the Canadian lawbreakers.