Why do they plot a vain thing?

"Achieving homosexual marriage is merely a stepping stone to the complete deconstruction of the natural family…and the continued deconstruction of our civilization."

Again, the anti-gay crusaders come back with the same fallacy. It's called the slippery slope fallacy. It claims that by doing something, it leads to another undesirable outcome. There is a huge problem with this however and it's called evidence. In other countries and states that have legalized same-sex marriage, the family hasn't been destroyed. Bestiality hasn't become rampant, polygamy hasn't come forth, and people aren't running through the streets naked raping each other. Families are still functioning just fine with the knowledge that there are gay couples out there who have decided to commit their lives to one another. It just isn't anyone else's business.

Now it's okay to believe that homosexuality is a sin of god. It's okay to believe anything. But belief about something isn't enough to warrant legislating it. This is a free country. To deny people the freedom to associate and act with equal protection under the law is to become a tyrant in your own right.

First, our founding was more based on rationalism and financial concerns than the Bible.

Second, if we are going to outlaw that which is not Biblical, why not strike down the 1st amendment because it allows false gospels to be preached and propagated.

Third, Paul, in I Cor 5, states that judging outsiders (those who are not in the Church) is not his concern, what is his concern is the purity of the Church.

Fourth, efforts to control society will sabotage our attempts to share the Gospel. If we defend the civil rights of those with whom we disagree, we will have a better chance to spread the Gospel

Again, America has never been a Christian country. To try to force what has never been is simply an invitation to non-Christians to find fault with the Gospel.

I quoted Psalm 2 for a reason. Do either of you have any idea of the meaning of this psalm? You both fail to understand who this man is that we call Jesus Christ. The nations belong to Him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion. He rules them with a rod of iron for the good of His church. All men everywhere are accountable to Him, and at His word every mouth will be stopped. Men plot a vain thing because they are willingly ignorant of who He is, otherwise they would willingly bow before Him.

"You both fail to understand who this man is that we call Jesus Christ."-Vft

Indications are that you are correct. Contrast them with Ed, who is drawn but won't post for fear of strife, and these two who post only FOR strife.

Who comes nearer the mind of Christ (Phil 2), do I need ask?

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

jack, you seem to know an awful lot about homosexuality.

The fact is, the fallacy is yours. You claim no detriment, yet our culture is in decline, hastened by the immorality of the creature.

Ecclesiastes 8:11
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.


You'll say this is a fallacy also, but no matter. The Truth will always win, in the end.

Jude 1-25
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

or condoning their sin?

Proclaiming the Gospel of Christ is not executing judgment on those to whom it is foreign. That is a lie of the accuser. To say the Gospel can be "sabatoged" would seem to deny the "sovereignity" of God:

Is 55:10-11
11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Since no man can come except the Father draw him (John 6:44), how can the inadequacies and errors of man "sabotage" that which is of God?
And when HAVEN'T the ungodly found fault with the Gospel! Actually the "common people" heard it (Him) gladly, but it was the Pharisee's who attempted to find fault with the spread of the truth. Not able to stop it, the ungodly resort to co-opting it, teaching doubt and lies so as to bring disease to it in attempt to kill it:

2 Timothy 2
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17And their word will eat as doth a canker...

But it is not possible that the feeble effort of man stop that which is of God.

I read profanity and vanity in your babblings...

someone's faith because they disagree with you over America? That is unless one's faith includes America, there is no need to.

If you read my note, you will see where our disagreement is located. It is not in the identity of Christ, it is in the role of the Church in making laws for society.

Finally, Christ comes to earth twice. The first time as a suffering servant who calls men to repentance because of his sacrificial death and triumph over that death. It is not until his second coming that he comes as a ruler. So my understanding is that until he comes as King, we should imitate him in his first coming.

For your first note, see what I wrote to Valiant.

For your last note directed at me, let me ask you this. Do we condone idolatry by defending the religious rights of those who are not Christian?

"The fact is, the fallacy is yours. You claim no detriment, yet our culture is in decline, hastened by the immorality of the creature."

How is the fallacy mine, Chiefest? You just did it again, claiming homosexuality is causing our culture to go downhill. That's the same as saying if we let this happen, bad things will come. That's not a valid argument. That's a fallacy and a dishonest one at that. Homosexuality has been in every culture in every society in every point in history and it's not stopping anytime soon. To say it destroys cultures is irrational because it's always been present and yet culture and society continues to thrive. Crime, deviance, and violence are lower today than they have been in the last 100 years. You cannot say we're going downhill without backing it up with data. Go to the department of justice's website. They'll show you all the data you need.

You're right in the assertion that the truth will win, but what you preach isn't truth. It's belief mixed with old fashioned bigotry. It will never win out no matter how many gods you say you have on your side.

You seem to go off on a tangent here claiming that all nations belong to Jesus and should be ruled under him, even though he hasn't come back to life yet over the past 2000 years. So why is homosexuality such a huge deal? Did Jesus make it a huge issue? I understand Romans talks about it, but Romans was written by Paul. Where is Jesus quoted as saying that homosexuality in all forms is evil and should be persecuted?

Jack and caday5, this appeal to the freedom of association is addressed to both of you…

As I have said before and as some of your ilk like ‘SecularSquare’ have honored, this site is not primarily polemic for the purpose of engaging men of different world views. Although, we have labored to address your questions as a way of exposing the fallacies of your thinking, it is apparent to me that nothing is being gained through continued discourse with you. Time spent with you means less time to pursue the intent of the blog.

The purpose of the blog is clearly stated under the bio. It is for those interested in what the Scriptures have to say and how the history of redemption has influenced American constitutionalism. Part of this is to clearly identify the major threats to our liberty, which are really rejections of the authority of Jesus Christ. We do not expect anti-theists or religious liberals to be interested in these things. So again we ask you kindly to honor the request to leave. I will no longer expend time to read or respond to your comments, and I am asking others to refrain from responding to you on this site.

So, let us see what character you are. Will you continue where you are not welcome or will you honor my request for the freedom of association?

Do you leave your doors/windows unlocked while you sleep?

Do you leave your keys in the car?

If you have small children, would you allow them to walk to the corner store or to school by themselves?

The thought has never crossed your mind, that if you leave your small child with someone that the possiblity exists they could be molested in some fashion?


I'll bet your parents or grandparents could answer each of these simple questions in the affirmative, but I'll be you can't.

So you don't believe your own statistics. Do you?

Keep your head in the sand, and keep refusing to discern the times. You'll eventually regret it.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Sorry, I was writing when you last posted.

I hope my request does not offend you. I keep thinking about Ed and his reluctance to post here. It is men like him for which the site exists.

Certainly no offense taken.

Ed's reluctance, and their insistence is telling indeed.

Molestation is horrible but it is abhorred and practiced by both hetero and homosexuals. It is difficult to see the point of your note another fallacy exposed

Again, disagreeing with you regarding your views of the role of Christianity in society implies nothing about one's beliefs. One can disagree with you and be interested in scripture. For example, I fail to see one NT command or precedent for imposing NT moral code regarding sexuality on society.

BTW, how are things? Good to see you are still contributing here.

I appreciate you taking the time to discuss these matters with me. I do enjoy our discussions even when we do not see eye-to-eye. I understand you wish to talk to those who share your viewpoints. That's completely natural. I've done that too, but you know what? It doesn't lead to anything productive. If we all just talked to people who we agreed with then there's no room to question or to criticize. I come here because it's important to get other perspectives. I do not care to seek out those who I know already agree with me. I seek those who don't agree with me because it seems so few others do.

It's important that we expose ourselves to ideas that are not in line with our own. It helps remind us of our humility. It keeps us humble. This is important because when I was a Christian, I believed strongly that nobody should have so much pride in their assertions that they should be immune to criticism. Pride to me is still as wrong as it was when I was told it was the worst of the seven sins. It's okay to have pride in your beliefs, but too much pride breeds arrogance, conceit, and bigotry. I do not wish to have too much pride in anything I believe in. I seek to question and to be questioned. You and Chiefest do that and I do appreciate it. You may not expect me to be interested in these matters, but I am. And this is a public forum and I like coming here. So that's what I keep doing.

Best Regards,
Jack

Asking such questions is very much a non-sequiter to the points I made earlier. When I was a kid my parents were protective at times, but by showing them I was mature I did gain their trust. I was allowed to walk to school on my own. I was allowed to go out at night. I was allowed to stand on street corners. And you know what? I was never molested.

It's another cop out, cherry picking something that isn't as common as we're made out to believe. Yes, child molestation happens. Yes, it's horrible. But is it rampant? No, it isn't. You could probably send a child out to walk to school every day wearing cute pink clothes and he will probably make it to graduation having never been molested. The odds of being molested are pretty slim and to single them out is to stark fearmongering. Plus, I don't see what this has to do with the earlier issues I brought up about homosexuality and the slippery slope fallacy. It makes no sense and if you're going to start fearmonginer, you're just going to commit more fallacies.

It's good to see you too. I've been well. Very busy, but well. I haven't seen you around much either, but I am glad to see you're still commenting. Thank you and I appreciate your input.