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Comment on: TheWayWeAre

Why Georgia is America's Fight to Win or Lose

118 Comments
Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 9:09 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Sorry for the goofy layout

I just don't know how to eliminate details that don't appear in the draft version, lie the Townhall banner separating my intro from the report.
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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 9:45 PM BrianR writes:

Phil, some thoughts (Part 1)

In "The Mystery Behind the Georgian Invasion", the author posits two scenarios for the Georgian invasion of S. Ossetia: a massive breakdown in intelligence, or a mis-assessment of Russia's intent and capabilities; but both assume US collaboration and at least tacit approval.

He completely ignores a third and very possible scenario: Georgian determination to attack on the mere presumption that their doing so will get our support by default, perhaps even IN SPITE of US warnings to desist, in essence dragging us into the conflict. He doesn't even consider this possibility.

That's a huge flaw in the thesis of the article, as it changes the complexion of many of his other conclusions and assertions.


Secondly, I think there's validity to the idea of a superpower having a secure local sphere of influence (and regardless of the article's assertion, Russia's still a superpower). We certainly subscribe to the idea with our own Monroe Doctrine, and our actions during the Cuban Missile Crisis embargo reinforced it.
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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 9:45 PM BrianR writes:

Prt 2



On a more practical note, I don't see where there's much we could do about this even if we were inclined to do so. Our military's spread so thin right now on missions of questionable national self-interest, what are we going to do? Are they going to start reactivating old guys like me?

Further, I don't even see where our national self-interest is involved here.

Clinton was criticized for sending troops all over the place on these meals-on-wheels deployments and others: Haiti and Bosnia, etc. Bush 1 had us in Somalia. What did we accomplish in any of that stuff? I think we STILL have troops in Bosnia.

On top of everything else... who would pay for this? WE certainly can't financially afford yet ANOTHER military expedition. Hell, we just sent $84 BILLION to Africa to fight AIDS!

What's next? Should we go into Rwanda? Ethiopia? Back to Somalia? N. Korea? Then Iran?

Enough. Sometimes the world just has to take care of itself.

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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:02 PM BrianR writes:

A further thought, on reflection


In my opinion, any politician on the "right" who supports our military intervention into that mess would be a perfect illustration of what a neo-con is. Foreign adventurism when there's no clear American self-interest involved.

That is not truly "conservative" at all.

Neo-cons still seem to insist on fighting the Soviet Union, even though it's been gone for 20 years. But in that mindset, Russia (under any name) = bad.

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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:06 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

I asked about your third scenario and we'll have to wait and see. The Georgians, like all other former captive states, hate Russians to the core and want them out of their country. Russia has no valid claims to South Ossetia which is populated by ethnc Georgians. The Abkazia region in the west was populated buy Russians after they drove the Georgians out ruthlessly.

This was a well-planned invasion by the Russians who had been amassing an invasion force very recently and were irked that we were conducting military training exercises right on their doorstep. The Georgians had to do something and took the initiative. I believe the Russians are making a mistake if they intend to oust the government and rule by intimidation. The Georgians are determined to drive the Russians out even if they turn their country into Afghanistan.
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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:11 PM BrianR writes:

Well, then, Phil


Let them do it as the Afghanis did: without US troops on the ground there.

Let's not forget who started this: it wasn't Russia.

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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:13 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

I DO see an American national interest

Free democracies are rare but only succeed when they are home grown and people are willing to fight to the death for it. Georgia desperately wants to become a member of the Europe Union and NATO and idolizes America. This is EXACTLY the kinds of struggles we need to support anywhere in the world. Our democracy was a miracle that never would have happened without being isolated by oceans. No one else has that luxury. If we want a free world, we have a responsibility to be involved when democracies sprout. The damage from abandoning yet another soul-mate ally is far worse than rallying to their defense.

I agree that there is nothing we can do militarily for now but we can do plenty to frustrate the Russians elsewhere. We could, for instance, begin discussions about adding Georgia to NATO. We could begin a campaign to oust Russia from the G-8. They are, after all, a small, shrinking economy and a failed state that is in worst shape today than they were 20 years ago. They may have old decaying nukes, but they are far from a superpower.
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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:20 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

It's not about our military intervention

It's about an efficient and consistent foreign policy that furthers our national interests and that promotes freedom and democracy in the world. What we have been practicing under Bush has been global fascism. It is hopelessly expensive to create phony democracies as we are doing in Iraq. It is very efficient to nurture and support true nacent democracies who are willing to do their own fighting as Georgia is determined to do. There is plenty that we can do to win here. We can conduct a confident foreign policy that projects strength by leaning forward. Russians respect only one thing: force. They cannot afford to get bogged down in Georgia. They don't have the economic resources and still have to worry about China doing the same to them in Siberia and other eastern, energy-rich territories.
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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:21 PM BrianR writes:

That's where we disagree, Phil


"Nation building" is not a Constitutional national self-interest. Your rationale is exactly what Bush uses to justify our abortion of a presence in Iraq -- which even the Iraqis don't want anymore.

And again, using your rationale, then what about Rwanda and Somalia and Ethiopia and Iran and N. Korea and on and on and on.

Once you use the idea that we're supposed to go charging all over the globe to install "democracy" everywhere, there's no end to it.

Those people screwed up. They should have taken their case to an international forum before just attacking a major power like Russia. That was foolishness of the first order. At least then, they'd have been able to make a case in the international arena, and gained some allies on a broader scale, instead of trying to make this a US v. Russia event.

Hell, we can't even get our own country to formally acknowledge the Armenian Genocide, and Armenia adjoins Georgia. Now we're supposed to get embroiled in another war in the area?

I don't think so.

According to your logic, American Indians would be perfectly justfied in an uprising against our own government.

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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:24 PM BrianR writes:

Re your 10:20 post


The whole point of the discussion is our involvement in the fight.

Otherwise, why are we even talking about it?

If all you're talking about is trying to exert some kind of political pressure on Russia, then there's not much to discuss.

Fine. Russia, shame on you. Take a time out. End of discussion.

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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:25 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR. first objective

Russia has secured two of its objectives by consolidating its control of the two territores it already had a presence. The main objective is to topple the government. We must never let than happen. That is an elected government that went through the Rose Revolution. It should not be allowed to be put on the table for discussion in any settlement. The Russians are going to insist.
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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:29 PM BrianR writes:

Also, Phil, I have to say


There's some advice I always gave my ex when my daughter was young: you have to pick your battles. Not everything is worth going to war over, figuratively speaking.

We have real problems with immediate impacts on our own country that involve other countries that IMO have much higher priorities: Mexico (illegal aliens), Venezuela (Chavez and oil), Israel (our only true ME ally). Maybe a couple of others.

What happens to a dinky country landlocked in the mountains of Eurasia has little import to this country in the overall scheme of things, as far as I'm concerned.

This kind of sabre-rattling is what got us involved in Vietnam.

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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:29 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Brian, this isn't nation building

This is supporting an ally in the traditional sense. They are building their own nation. This is not Iraq, more like Hungary in 1956. We need to nip this in the bud while we can.
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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 10:33 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Agreed on everything you said

Except we ARE involved and have been since the Soviet empire broke apart. This is just finishing what we started. This never would have happened had Bush not indulged in foolish nation-building in Iraq. Bush has been a spectacular failure with just about everything. Georgia is not a budget buster. It is a foreign policy and tough democracy problem. Russia is weak and desperate. We need to make it as expensive for them as possible. We need to encourage every former soviet state to feel confident to confront the Russians they hate so much. Let's finish the job we started.
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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 11:34 PM BrianR writes:

Agreed on Bush


He is a total failure; that's why I'm so anti-McCain, who makes Bush look like the reincarnation of Reagan.

Gotta tell you, again I don't see our interest in this, and almost without fail, once we start "supporting" these little nothing countries, it always escalates into American GIs dying on the ground.

And again: who attacked whom?

Russia can make a very good case as the aggrieved party. It was Georgia that disrupted the status quo.

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Tuesday, August, 12, 2008 11:57 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

I don't know how familiar you are with the situation in Georgia but it is important to place it in the context of the collapse of the Soviet empire. Georgia is the only one that has made enormous strides in fighting corruption. They are 100% invested as a culture to creating a modern, Western style democracy and are desperate to find friends to save them. They are not a little "nothing" country. We were a "little nothing country" too at one time and could not have staged our miracle without help. For Georgia to fail for being abandoned by the world would guarantee that we would have to fight later. I'm not advocating sending troops. That is not an option. The world is waiting for us to act and if we abandon our friends after they have taken big risks to help us in Iraq and Afghanistan and are willing to pay the ultimate penalty in their own struggle for freedom, it will confirm to our most cynical critics that we cannot be trusted to defend our most cherished values and principles. Are we just going to fight for corporate interests or for constitutional freedom? That is the line Bush has crossed. He wants a fascist global new world order without borders where nations are reduced to markets to be exploited. We are in a global struggle to preserve our individual rights against a globalized elite ruling class that is pooling its wealth in sovereign wealth funds and hedge funds. We cannot afford to lose this battle and to abandon Georgia is just more evidence that when it comes to being the beacon of hope to the world, we are frauds. Georgia is EXACTLY the type of struggle we must be involved with. This is not Iraq or Viet Nam (unless you are alluding to Ho Chi Minh who idolized Woodrow Wilson but turned communist after the US refused to recognize IndoChina despite their fighting on our side in WWII? Another war that could have been avoided.)
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 12:19 AM BrianR writes:

Sorry, Phil, no sale


Nice story, doesn't change my opinion one single bit, nor negate anything I've written.

The bottom line is as I wrote: once we engage ourselves in this type of thing, it never ends until we have soldiers dying there.

The Georgians attacked Russia on their own. They can fight their war on their own.

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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 7:31 AM Sgt Relic writes:

I'm not sure I understand enough

about the region to make any judgments. A few things do spring to mind. Brian's third scenario could be right. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a country in our sphere of influence took action on their own.

We don't have the assets to become involved in a military action. I do think that America has a self interest in supporting democracies, not necessarily in building them.

The question is just how far that support extends. In this case it probably is not much past being involved enough to see that Georgia extracts itself intact.

If the Ossetians have in fact been shelling Georgia from time to time it starts to look very much like an Israeli/Palestinian scenario. The Palestinians rocket Israel from time to time and then the Israeli's respond, sometimes against our advice. If they even tell us first, that is.

The timing can't be coincidence. Putin's in Beijing. Bush is in Beijing. IMO, that's exactly where Putin wanted to be when this came off.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 9:40 AM Gray Ghost writes:

Sgt Relic and I Agree...

I too am not sure what to do in this problem.

However, two things of great interest strike me while I have been reading reports coming out of the battle zone:

1. The Russian military (and their Air Force in particular) SUCK! Unless Putin can force the Russian military to become better trained, he will have problems enforcing his will on the rest of Europe and Asia.

2. Perhaps another reason for this invasion is to give the Russian military some first hand experience in going against a US trained military (i.e., the Georgian military).

If I were forced to give a plan of action to President Bush, I would say send into Georgia a small team of US and CHINESE (300 to 500 men from each country) forces. Tell Putin they are there for humanitarian reasons. Make sure that the whole world knows they are going in for humanitarian reasons.

Give the transport aircraft a heavy escort of covering US fighter aircraft, with backup fighter escort. Land them well away from the fighting with much of the world news media in with the transport planes to cover it.

Putin can not risk attacking them. He will rant and rage; but the world (including the Chinese) would be against him if he tried anything.

I believe that the Chinese would be more than willing to be involved (especially with the Olympics).

FIRST RULE OF WAR: Divide and conquer. The Chinese know this and do not want a TOO powerful Russia to their North.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 10:13 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR, Sgt Relic

Let me say it one more time: I am NOT advocating military involvement. And furthermore, Georgia didn't attack Russia, they attacked Russian troops in their own country. It is too early too make a judgment about who is at fault here but the Russians were amassing troops along the border for a reason and that invasions was going to happen whether the Georgians moved first (within their own borders) or the Russians crossed the border first.

Brian, are you saying that we should become isolationist? It won't cost us much to lean on Russia all over the world. Are you saying we should simply abandon Georgia? We shouldn't move to kick Russia out of the G-8 for instance? We shouldn't start barking in the UN and everywhere else to pressure the Russians? Going after their money in our banks? Penalizing investors like George Soros and Mark Mobius who insist on capitalizing the Russian kleptocracy?

It's not all about guns.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 10:18 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Gray Ghost

Thanks for those observations. The reason I posted this was to add more analysis to the story before everyone settles on a convenient Hollywood narrative. I don't know for sure what exactly happened either but I do think there is linkage to other situations including Iran. Russia has little leverage left other than their natural gas pipelines into Europe. This might give them some leverage (at least they think so) over what happens in Iran. I can't help thinking that the report that Condi released the Israelis to proceed when they are ready on Iran had lots to do with this. Russia cares plenty about Iran.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 10:31 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Ceasefire?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5eec7de6-689a-11dd-a4e5-0000779fd 18c.html

Sounds like Russian looting and pillaging to me.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 10:36 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Russia moving on Ukraine?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ayrpPV6 nJ4Qk&refer=worldwide

I would think twice about this being Georgia's fault. This is something Putin has been planning for years. Do we surrender now or later? Where is Chamberlain when we need him!
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 10:51 AM BrianR writes:

Guys, great posts (Part 1)

They also clearly highlight what I've pointed out as the problem here.

Note that Ghost's idea entails sending US troops into the area... EXACTLY what I'm against, but unfortunately the only real leverage we can exert against a country like Russia.

Which is exactly my point. Like it or not, Phil, that's reality.

There are a couple of countries that historically haven't really given much of a hoot about world opinion: Russia and China.

Phil, you keep talking about some kind of non-military action that's going to be effective, and my point is that there ain't any such thing when you're talking about Russia.

Incidentally, FYI, natural gas isn't their only energy resource; they're very significant oil producers. That gives them very real economic clout.

No, I'm not "isolationist". What I AM is someone who doesn't think, once again, that we should be running around engaging in foreign military actions that don't have our national self-interest as a basis, and I don't buy that Georgia's self-inflicted fiasco has any of that self-interest at stake.

Your constant talking about Russia's period as the USSR is irrelevant, IMO; that's the past, and the USSR is gone. As a matter of fact, if we're going to use labels, that's one I'd label as "neo-conism"; a pervasive obssession with fighting a no longer extant Soviet Union.

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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 10:51 AM BrianR writes:

Part 2


We had a very valid self-interest in fighting in Iraq: the threat of WMDs and a free flow of ME oil. The war went great; the occupation's been a bungled mess.

We have no such interest in Georgia. No more than we do in Rwanda, Somalia, Ethiopia, Chad, or a dozen other places in the world where people live in horrid, squalid, deadly, non-democratic countries.

It's not our job to right all the wrongs, evils, and inequities in the world. It's not our job to cure AIDS in Africa, though we're sending $84 billion there to do that -- uncontitutionally.

Yet your arguments could be used to justify doing ALL those things.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 11:05 AM BrianR writes:

Phil, re your link on the Ukraine


From the article:

"The U.S. has long seen Georgia and Ukraine as counterweights to Russia's influence in the region. Opposition leaders in the two countries came to power after U.S.-backed popular protests in 2003 and 2004. Their ascension advanced an American strategy of expanding NATO to include both countries"


So again, it seems to me that this problem is due to our own interference in the region. Now it's blown up in everyone's face, and it's then a justification for our getting even further embroiled there?

No.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 11:22 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR. I'm surprised

I don't understand your position on American foreign policy. Russia has been a bully throughout history. They don't respect anything but raw power. Like all bullies, they need to be contained because they are pathologically obsessed about perceived threats at their borders so they expand by taking territory which pushes the "threat" further out only to require another expansion to deal with it and so on. It is not about respecting their sphere of influence but in containing them. Like all bullies, we need to be forever stepping on their toes and leaning into them. That is all they understand. They are NOT a superpower. We drained their economy once and we can (must) do it again. They are just a kleptocracy that does not invest in their own economy. They are fatally flawed as a culture and this might be a good time to take them down another notch while we can.

BTW, Bush just had a press conference where he suggested that the Russians are now blocking access to the cities so food and other essential supplies can not be delivered by international relief organizations. We might be seeing Kosovo in spades here. They brutally drove the Georgians out of Abkhazia and have to qualms about slaughtering people, the "final" solution.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 11:39 AM BrianR writes:

Phil, how can you not


understand what I've written? I wrote a great deal, and I think it's all pretty clear.

We are not in any kind of position, either militarily or economically, to be going to war with Russia. We've squandered far too many of our resources on brushfires all over the world, our forces are thinly spread, troops are being involuntarily extended as it is, we're activating National Guard units constantly. Even if it were justified, what are we going to use?

The cupboard's bare, my friend. You want to launch nukes? Over Georgia?

I'll even say this. Even if it were justified -- and in no way do I concede that -- then Russia picked a great time to make their play, because we just don't have anything left with which to do anything about it.

We've had way too much of this "policeman of the world" mentality over the last few decades, and it's one of the reasons we're in the financial fix we're in. We carry the military burden for the "Free World", and frankly, it's got to stop.

Unless there's some clear and present danger to our own national weal, I don't see any justification for being involved in this stuff. Iraq, yes, as I stated. Afghanistan, yes; go after the IF terrs.

Georgia? Pffft. Whether they exist or not isn't going to affect us one bit.

Let some of the other Western countries start stepping up to the plate, if it's such a big deal. Let Germany and France start spending some of THEIR resources before we keep sacrificing our money and young people on this endless tilting at windmills.

I notice also that you keep ignoring what I've written about Rwanda and Chad and Somalia and all the other countries that live in desparate squalor and oppression.

Why is that?
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 11:55 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Stop right there Brian!

I clearly state that I am not advocating war with Russia. Now re-read your last comment.

I find it hard to believe that we don't agree on this. It's not like I'm telling you to buy a Glock OR ELSE! Despite the mind-boggling Bush idiocy, we are still America, the only superpower on earth. We are weaker than we were 8 years ago but we are not weak. Russia is weaker than they were 20 years ago.

So I ask you again, are you now becoming an isolationist? If Iraq hadn't happened, would your position be the same? It is essential that we project a robust presence as the leader of the free world. In Russia's case, it means being in their face constantly, rewarding their enemies and standing up to them every time they start bullying from a position of weakness as they are now doing. Make them pay. Strip them of their access to world power by kicking them out of the G-8. Open discussions with NATO about adding Ukraine and Georgia as members. Sarkozy is taking the lead so far as he should. The key is to have the entire free world express its outrage and unite in isolating Russia as the pariah that they are. That is not war, it is a return to the Cold War. I'm okay with that.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 2:17 PM BrianR writes:

Well, since name-calling


seems to have become the order of the day now, are you a neo-con?

Endlessly charging off into aggressive foreign adventures to prove America's "macho"?


I keep telling you that short of a military confrontation, there's not a damned thing we can do about this situation.

You want to add Ukraine and Georgia to NATO. Good plan! The situation already sucks, so why not make it even WORSE by making a military commitment to them?

You think threatening them with removal from G8 would make any difference? Ha! You clearly don't understand the Russian mentality or character.

Iraq has not one thing to do with my opinion on this. I was just as vocal criticizing Clinton for sending troops all over the place, like Haiti and Bosnia. We had no business there, and we have no business in Georgia.

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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 2:21 PM BrianR writes:

PS, Phil


You keep raising Iraq as an issue. Let me refresh your memory.

I always supported our invasion of Iraq, and still believe it was the right call.

What I've ALWAYS criticized -- and still do -- was what happened AFTER the actual war ended. Our occupation, which has been a FUBAR effort.

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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 2:29 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR,

We have always seen eye-to-eye on Iraq and almost everything else outside of Glocks and oil. I also don't really think, once we have hashed this out, that we are all that far apart on this either. Our choices are not limited to war or total abdication of our moral obligation on the matter. We are just being forced to decide whether we intend to our stated historical role of supporting democracy everywhere or whether Bush has reduced us to being business-only. There are many options available that will make Russia's life miserable that cost us nothing. Now Europe seems to lining up with us so maybe they will take the lead. They are, after all, embarrassed about their role in Kosovo and this could turn into another Kosovo except it will be Christians being enthnically cleansed.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 2:41 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Brian: as to Iraq

I'm not sure how you are reading what I said about the role of Iraq in this but the only point I made was that we took the most expensive alternative possible for deploying 160,000 troops. It depressed our military capability unnecessarily. I think Condi reportedly giving Israel a signal to "fire at will" at Iran might have been an issue.

Who is calling anyone names? Calm down and work through what I am saying. I am not making this stuff up. I am trying to figure this out by carefully working through the information available. I'm basically thinking out loud.

You know, you pulled this attitude thing on me on my "Bigness of Big Oil" post and when I first alerted you to the amnesty cram down. Re-read the comments sections there. I'll bet you don't even remember your first reaction to my amnesty wake-up call on your blog that day. You should have learned by now that I don't throw "facts" around carelessly and so you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what I say with a wave of the hand.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 2:55 PM BrianR writes:

Phil, I mostly agree,


with one VERY significant difference.

I've NEVER believed we have some "stated historical role of supporting democracy everywhere". That's JFK; I don't believe it's at all any kind of "historical role", and don't feel we have any obligation anywhere if our own national self-interest isn't the primary objective. And by that, I don't mean some abstract "self-interest" about "democracy in the world" making us better off in some nebulous sense. I mean a real, quanitifiable immediate boon to our own national interests.

That's the rationale, once again, that got us embroiled in Vietnam.

As to name-calling, you TWICE called me "isolationist". Simply review the posts.

Tit for tat, bro.

As to amnesty, I think YOU should review the posts. You were in high dudgeon because of the second attempt to push it through, and I told you to calm down because it wasn't going anywhere in the House. And I was exactly right.

That's the second time you've tried to raise that, too, and the second time you've "misremembered".

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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 3:34 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

"Misremembered"

Scary word. Way too close to "dismembered". I think I'm due for target practice.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 3:40 PM BrianR writes:

Hahahaha, Phil!


At least neither of us used a "Bushism"!

One of the truly kewl things about being retired is I can go to the range any day I want, so I went Monday and avoided the weekend crowds.

Took my Bersa and my SA Black Stainless, and had a blast (pun intended).

I may go back up tomorrow and take my Mossberg ATR.

Spending my daughter's inheritance on ammo! Gotta love it!

Bro, we should get together at the range on day, maybe Angeles since it's pretty much between us.

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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 3:44 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Brian

Yeah let's do that. I'm itching to take my Mini-14 out and see how good it is at putting holes in enemy paper.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 3:47 PM BrianR writes:

When's good for you?


?
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 5:40 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

I usually go during the week after the market closes (1 pm). Takes me about 20 minutes to get their so 1:30 - 2:00 any weekday.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 8:04 PM BrianR writes:

Excellent!


Let's talk on the phone tomorrow and set something up. We each have the numbers.

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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 10:58 PM Gray Ghost writes:

Phil

One last thing, because I am in way over my head (my idea of negotiations is somewhat similar to Bruce Willis in the "Fifth Element", shoot the enemies' leader and ask does anyone else what to negotiate), take a look at the last sentence of my August 8, 2008 post on Russia invading Georgia:

"I am also tempted to believe that Russia's actions are part of a larger plan conceived by Russia and Iran."

Iran and Russia are in this together, in my opinion. But the why I am not sure of.
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Wednesday, August, 13, 2008 11:31 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Gray Ghost

I happen to agree with that although I think Iran is not a partner. Russia operates on a very paranoid pathology that has been reinforcing itself for centuries if not millenia. In Richard Nixon's excellent book "The Real War" (ghost written by Hugh Hewitt in 1979), he gives a great description of the Russian mind set. It has to do with always feeling threatened by its neighbors so they are always bullying their neighbors and extending their borders which guarantees that their neighbors will always hate them which reinforces the paranoia and urge to continue expanding.

I believe it is far too early to form any conclusions about this Georgia thing but one thing for sure is that they feel very hemmed in by their former states who have learned over the years to hate Russians deeply.

What really concerns me in reading all of the comments all over Townhall bey people who are normally supportive of military strength is how most of them are supporting appeasement and they don't seem to realize it. We really need to clear our minds of Iraq, Kosovo and Viet Nam. This is the Cold War all over again and we need to nip it in the bud right now before it turns into a large scale military expansion. Although we are tired, militarily depleted and entering into a very bad economic period, these events cannot be budgeted or scheduled at our convenience. We were drawn into WWII during the depression when we were essentially demilitarized and rose to the challenge. If we don't handle this correctly, we may once again be drawn into a major world war. Luckily for us, we are better prepared for it than anyone else. The Russians wouldn't have a chance unless the Chinese sided with them. I can't see that happening since China stands to gain much of Russia's resources by siding with us.

We'll see. One good thing about this is that Europe is already showing signs of waking up.
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Thursday, August, 14, 2008 1:09 AM BrianR writes:

Oh, please

This isn't the Cold War, nor is it WW2.

The day has come when we have to stop taking care of Europe's problems while they sit in their social democratic towers, throwing stones at us constantly, trading against our self-interest, devaluing our dollars, sniping at us in the UN and World Court, all the while in full assurance that they can go crying to Mommy Uncle Sam to do the heavy lifting every time they get their nuts in a wringer.

Screw them all.

What's in it for US?



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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 1:05 AM Virginia Patriot writes:

It's not all about guns. ??????

Too bad, I like guns. (Even Glocks)

Phil, Let me know how you like the mini-14 when you get a chance to shoot it. I just recently got a mini-30, haven't had an opportunity to shoot it yet. The indoor pistol range won't allow anything not pistol caliber and the outdoor public ranges aren't open until Sept.1 (Gov. TIMMY! closed them from Mar.15-Sept1, damned liberal)

Brian, I had my Bersa at the range Sunday, very fun little gun. Took my Hi-Power too, it's the only pistol I have other than my Buckmark that I can consistently hit the target with at 25 yards. I'm liking my revolver a lot more than I expected to, always been a semi-auto guy, but that old school Smith & Wesson has the slickest single action trigger I've ever shot. When shooting at the dueling tree, it's like I can't miss. With magnums in it, the plates just pop over to the other side, sparks flying off the steel. I'm probably taking that this Sunday and trying it at 25 yards, we'll see how that works out.

(I'm conflicted about the post topic, I agree with both of you to some degree, so I'll keep my mouth shut about it until I figure out what's going on and what I think about it)
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 9:40 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Virginia Patriot

Just one note on Georgia. The key is whether you believe that the fall of the USSR was the end of history or not. Brian seems to be separating the GWOT from Russian aggression, I see it as a central issue. If you've been tracking my arguments on the senior circuit, those who argue against me always argue as it I'm advocating war against Russia. It's the same mental block as those who argue for amnesty because "we can't deport 20 million illegals". People just re-frame the argument to fit their conclusions.

On the Mini-14, I ordered a BSA scope for it which I should get by Tuesday so I probably won't be shooting it until Wednesday. I'll be meeting up with Brian and maybe another Marine friend of mine so there should be several other guns to compare it to. I don't have high expectations for accuracy, particularly since I'll be using Wolf ammo but it everyone I know has one and love it.

Why would a shooting range be closed during the summer of all times? CA is a very NRA state despite our image. There are more conservatives here per capita than any other state. We probably account for 20% of all registered Republicans. Counts for nothing. As in most states, we don't have a Republican party. Stupid party.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 12:45 PM Joe writes:

Bravo Pasadena Phil

I disagree with you on your Defeatocon position regarding John McCain, but I like these postings about Georgia and the conflict. Excellent blog work. Good analysis. These are very good posts.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 12:48 PM Joe writes:

Outdoor shooting ranges closed in summer

I have heard it done to supposedly prevent forest and brush fires, but I cannot recall ever hearing of such a fire started by a shooting range. Why not ban smoking (which starts about 75% of all fires)? Opps, perhaps I should not give the nanny-state any new ideas.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 12:59 PM Catmman writes:

We started a huge fire...

A few years ago when doing weapons trainng up in Guernsey, WY.

Of course we were shooting everything from M249 up to Mk-19 - firing tracers, HE rounds, the whole nine yards!

The fire was pretty cool too; musta burned down half the state! I exagerate, but it was pretty big...

I'm glad I have access to a military range because of work.

Mini-14 is a decent weapon, though I felt the factory stock was a bit short for me. Ammo is cheap, and it's a relible weapon, you'll like it.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 1:34 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Thanks Cattmann

That fire hazard issue is brought up here in CA too but has no currency. It just isn't true. The outdoor range I go to is a landscaped field with burms spaced every 100 yds with nothing but gravel in between. The gravel is scraped daily so there is nothing for bullets to spark off of and nothing to catch fire. The politicians have now turned to "lead contamination" as if lead is a hazardous chemical. Hey, bleach is widely considered as having saved more lives than any other substance but the ecofascists continue their assault on Clorox for marketing a hazardous substance. You can't win with these people. Human existence itself is considered to be environmental contamination.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 1:42 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Just for the record

And Brian can add to this if I got it wrong, but Brian and I had a phone discussion and we are not as far apart on this as the discussion here would lead you to believe. There is a difference between "nation building" and nurturing budding democracies. There is no starting from scratch in Georgia as there was in Iraq. All we would be doing in Georgia is helping them defend the democracy they so desperately want. We are pushing down hill and they are willing to do all the fighting and dying. Iraq is an exercise in futility. You cannot impose freedom and democracy on people who won't fight for it. We are pushing up hill and have to do most of the fighting and dying for them.

IMHO, we have become confused by the language and priorities of the GWOT. History did not end in 1991 and we need to rediscover the mindset and resolve that enabled to take down the USSR and soon. This is bigger than the GWOT but is part of it.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 3:36 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

catch 22

If we get involved we have challenges and if we don't get involved we have challenges. As with football, I say we should always try to win now and not in the future.

Personally, I'm for colonialism or nation-building whatever you want to call it. It may not be constitutional but it is a way to defend ourselves. Democracies with capitalism rarely fight each other. And the sooner we can turn Iraq into Texas the better it will be all around. (PPhil, I disagree - it is not that the Iraquis don't want freedom and democracy it is just that they have never had it offered to them. That is like saying the American slaves should have just freed themselves.)

Going to Iraq was smart. How we took care of it was not BUT we were also trying to wage the most humane war in history. We had our hands tied and still do. It is insane how we had to do it. So that is why I think a lot of it was bungled. So, interfering to me is just defending our future by winning now. I do understand the urge to mind our own business though.

But look what happened when Patton was pulled back. And when we left the Cubans and the Kurds hanging. We will always have to fight our enemies again.

As for Russia, they are going after something valuable - energy. They may not have to fight anyone. They can just turn the spigot off to make others crumble.

Doing whatever we can to help Georgia is smart too. We will need them.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 3:51 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Scarlet

I always supported invading Iraq and still do. I just don't support how we conducted the war after the invasion. Granted, it is all hindsight now and I will concede that trying to sweep the Iraqis into rallying around democracy was a noble effort. But it failed. It was not worth a trillion+ dollars. They are now willing to fight for something but it won't be something that will have been worth a wasting single American life. Maliki is a corrupt politician and wants us out. Our oil companies are being cut out of the post-war oil development contracts. The surviving government will be a mix of Maliki's coalition and the al Sadr Islamists. They are only going to be our friends so long as we keep a gun at their heads. Georgia is exactly the opposite.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 5:01 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

oh i agree, PPhil

about Georgia. But they are our friends because they hate Russia and we are an enemy of their enemy.

As for corruption, what are you gonna do? I say we dig out all the coal, pump all the oil, etc, get some new energy sources so we can take that off the table when dealing with these other countries.

The problem with doing nothing is that there is going to be a vacuum most times until these countries evolve.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 5:08 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Scarlet

Exactly. We don't have the luxury of doing nothing unless we intend to become a 3rd tier economy.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 5:11 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

Our ranges are similarly constructed, no fire danger, just a liberal Gov. They used to be open year round with no fires to my knowledge. Unless someone were using incendiary or tracer rounds there is very little possibilty of fire. My brother-in-law belongs to a hunt club that has several hundred acres just southwest of here, about an hour away. When I can get him to go shooting, that's my only option for rifle when the public range is closed. Can't wait to be rid of Gov. TIMMY! (think South Park)
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 5:18 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Virginia Patriot

Maybe McCain can pick Timmy for VP!
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 7:07 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

Obama may beat him to it. (Please!!!)

I fully expect McCain to go all "mavericky" and pick someone like Liberalman. I'm curious to see just how much excrement the bobbleheads will eat before they jump off the GOP Titanic.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 8:03 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Virginia Patriot

The Joes of the world will eat whatever excrement is shoved at them. If this was about anything more than generic Republicans winning, they wouldn't be Republicans anymore. They can't engage in conversations without the fear-mongering and race-baiting and when cornered with facts and logic, out come the personal attacks loaded with lies and bile.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 11:09 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Fearmongering Works

Among the nose-holders are quite a few people who agree with us in principle, but are too scared to do anything about it in practice. They have chosen the "pragmatic" course.

Joe and Jorge and a only few others would campaign for Mao if he was wearing the R jersey.

Many of the rest are genuinely afraid of Obama with Reid and Pelosi running Congress. I have to say it concerns me. McCain's support is given grudgingly at best with most people. They have accepted the box the RNC has put them in.

This is the year a well financed third party candidate could have won. There are some Democrats who don't like their candidate either.
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Saturday, August, 16, 2008 11:29 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VirgiEvnia Patriot

Fear-mongering works among the blind and unsophisticated. Bush tried to cram amnesty down our throats when the GOP controlled everything and still failed. The Dems took over and everyone feared "girl power" with Pelosi and so McCain tried to cram amnesty down our throats again, and failed. In fact, the new Blue Dogs completely frustrated Pelosi. I don't see how Obama would be more successful. McCain is more of a threat because Republicans honor tradition more than Dems and may give him automatic support were he to introduce another amnesty bill early on. Even then, I really doubt he will succeed. I don't believe Obama is anywhere near committed to amnesty and given the desperate state of our economy, I really don't think either wants to come out of the starting gate failing big, especially on an issue more than 80% of Americans have already made known their opposition to.

It's still early. It might be a good thing for McCain to take a lead going into the Dem convention. Imagine the panic in the GOP were Hillary to emerge the nominee. McCain would be cooked. The Clinton machine with more than twice as much money than the goofy McCain. Wow.
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Sunday, August, 17, 2008 9:39 AM Nee writes:

Guys

This was a great discussion...Yesterday I was downtown in the city(Chicago) and there was a protest by the local Georgians. Interestingly enough, I was of the school of thought that we should help our allies because it is the right thing to do. I know that we are militarily stretched too thin. I also understand there is nothing in it for The US at the moment. I also believe that Russia IS as weak as they ever were, but now they have money to throw around. Maybe that is what makes this scary is that an underlying motive of Russia would be to involve the US, despite the fact that the assumption is that Georgia attacked first.

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Sunday, August, 17, 2008 9:45 AM Nee writes:

Can of worms

As for Iraq...I have to say that Bremer was not that great. But, even after all that, do you not see how close Iraq is to standing on their own? Does this count for anything at all? I mean, Brian was saying how they don't want us there anymore, but every person or unit on the ground that I know- (and it is considerable)is telling me the opposite. They certainly know the end is near, but are in no way saying that they don't want us there. Now, are they the leaders? Nope, just the Iraqi troops on the ground. How does anyone discount that?
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Sunday, August, 17, 2008 9:47 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Nee

Long time no see!

It's important to remember that Russia was going to attack Georgia regardless of who attacked first. We don't know what made the Georgians attack first but they knew the Russians were amassing troops and tanks along their border.
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Sunday, August, 17, 2008 9:56 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Nee, Iraq

Iraq is near standing on their own but the government, not to be confused with citizens the troops meet, is already cooling to us. Moqtada al Sadr was never put out of business and his faction will be very influential in the government and being hostile and ruthless, may trigger a civil war. They are already cutting out American companies from oil and other contracts and al Maliki can't keep straight what he says from one interview. He is angling for wiggle room and I suspect that it is not good for us. I don't have much hope that Iraq will be anything more than another dictatorship when this is all over.

I know a few people who were there too through all of this and three factors trump everything: tribalism, ignorance, corruption. It takes generations to grow a successful democracy even when you want it. They don't. Once we're gone, the old mind set will return and it won't be good.
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Sunday, August, 17, 2008 1:41 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Suge

You are framing the global situation all wrong. We don't place ourselves on the same moral plane as Russia. The whole world is our (America's, not "our goverment's") business because we undergird the entire world economy. We are only 4% of the world's population yet produce more than 25% of the world's production and most of the rest needs us to exist.

Russia, on the other hand, is a bully that enriches itself by stealing. WWII could have been avoided had the French merely arrested the few troops who marched into the Sudenland. We are now in great position to completely ruin Russia's economy and better do it while we can do it with war.

You are also misreading what happened in Georgia. Putin has been TELLING us for at least five years that Russia would retake as many of its lost territories and would punish anyone who developed ties to the West. They were not amassing an invading army because they were anticipating a Georgian attack in South Ossetia. This was a well-planned invasion intended to cow the other states.

Did you know that the presidents of Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine, and other western-leaning former Soviet states DROVE into Tbilisi as a message to Russia that they will not be cowed into submission? Poland then signed an agreement to allow NATO to build the Patriot missile bases. Today, Ukraine offered its Russian-built missile facilities to NATO. Estonia and Lithuania will be next.

If you are a Libertarian, I am wasting my time. You guys believe dams can be dismantled with the water flooding down on you. But we don't have the luxury of becoming isolationist. We are involved in the entire world whether we like it or not.
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Sunday, August, 17, 2008 2:49 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

sugar sweet

I don't want America to run the world. I just want them to defend themselves proactively. If we do nothing some other entity will fill any void. To me, it is smart policy to get involved however we can afford to do it.
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Sunday, August, 17, 2008 5:53 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Suge

I am not buying into MSM anything. This is a matter of national interests. There is a dangerous game being played whether or not we choose to participate. If we don't play, we allow our interests to be carved up by our enemies and "friends" alike.

And will have to ask you to stop assigning useless labels and assigning roles that don't exist except among people of a certain mindset who believe they are the only ones who "know" and everyone is being brainwashed. I spend all day every day checking and rechecking information. I am hardly naive and I never get my information from political think tanks. A good map cuts through 90% of the BS we are fed from most sources.

As to America's projected decline (yet again), it is YOU who are underestimating America's power. We will survive our current confused state of affairs and come out stronger. Too much is being assumed about the projected growth of China power. They will win only if we adopt your isolationist (yes, this time I used it deliberately because you are clearly an isolationist) ideas and let them. They are COMMUNISTS! The miracle of America (until recently) is that we believe in capitalism in well-regulated free markets. They believe, like us lately, in centralized government controlled markets. They are a house of cards that is teetering at all times.

They fear democracy and will become increasingly inefficient as they succumb to their need to control every minor detail and make every decision. That, once again, is where we can re-impose our efficiencies. If we are engaged in the world on our terms. We cannot let them dictate the terms.
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Sunday, August, 17, 2008 6:01 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Suge

So it's all our fault?

"Do Americans really think other people like our govt's meddling?"

"Why are we even still in NATO, and why did NATO continue expanding towards Russia? What did people think Russia's reaction would be? If Russia was in a military alliance w/Central and South American countries what would WE think of it?"

"I do believe Georgia was pushed by the admin to instigate a conflict w/Russia."

This is right out of the "America is always wrong" playbook. You are saying the same things that our enemies are always saying including what Russia is saying now. Who cares what they say? They are bullies and if you read my early comments on this thread I described how we have successfully contained bullies in the past. You certainly don't elevate their claims to a moral equal stature to ours. We don't partner or negotiate with bullies, we tell them to sit down and shut up or else.

"There is an incredibly naive and simplistic idea among Americans that their govt is good and pure and does no wrong, while other govt's are bad, evil, and always wrong."

I rest my case. Who is being naive?
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Monday, August, 18, 2008 11:51 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Suge

You are wasting your time assigning my positions to me. In your last four posts, you reframed the gist of my position in so many ways I don't even want to respond point by point.

As to NATO, created NATO and it has served us well. If there is one good thing about this latest episode in Georgia (and there are many), it is that Europe now wants to take the lead in leaning all over Russia. It is not anywhere near as provocative to be leaning on Russia and pressuring them full time. Strength is the only thing they respect. Angela Merkel was in Tbilisi yesterday promising to get Georgia into NATO. Germany is the reason they failed to gain membership.

You are incredibly ill-informed if you think that Russia is anything more than a regional power whose neighbors have just demonstrated that they will not be cowed. Georgia is being threatened with nuclear destruction which they scoff at. Ukraine responded to Russia's threats by inviting NATO to install missiles there. Poland has already signed the deal. Russia is threatening to re-arm their Baltic Sea navy with nukes. Yawn.

This is turning into liar's poker where Russia took a foolish risk believing they could bluff their way to gain geo-political leverage over the world and their neighbors used it to call their bluff by tightening the noose. Russia does not have the resources or wealth to project power. They are just Italy with old decrepit nukes.

And they made a tactical blunder agreeing to withdraw from Georgia but moving in deeper. They have now stretched themselves so thin that they have left themselves vulnerable to economic collapse.

So as you see, we are winning. Are you saying we should surrender? We are the ONLY COUNTRY ON EARTH that could take the whole world on in war and win. That is what it means to be the only superpower. Being strong and leaning forward is how avoid war without surrendering power. Who cares if Putin is offended. Good!
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Tuesday, August, 19, 2008 12:09 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

suge

In case you foolishly believe that the Russians are a serious military power, remember the Kursk? That state of the art sub that sank before it's deployment due to their inept crew? Remember that they wouldn't allow the rest of the world to rescue their crew and so died needlessly?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep/01/kursk.russia
http://www.archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/08/14/russia. military/

Think McHale's navy. Or F-Troop in boats. They are a joke.

Do you know that they still use tanks that were built in 1972?

Do you know that they don't even have the nuclear missiles they are threatening to deploy in their Baltic navy?

Do you know that those missiles they are deploying to Georgia are nothing more than Scuds?

Frankly, I don't think you know much of anything or you wouldn't be attacking me personally. You should have surmised by visiting my blog that I am fact-based and well-researched.
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Thursday, August, 21, 2008 1:34 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

Sugar, "defend proactively" means

to NOT wait until the bad guy actually jacks you for your money. You dissuade him first.

I think you're confused about something: there is a difference between being the world's policeman and making sure we are where we need to be to protect our interests.
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Thursday, August, 21, 2008 2:55 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

new post up, PPhil

come on by.
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Saturday, August, 23, 2008 9:29 AM Sam writes:

PPhil

I am starting a new forum site. The townhall stuff is getting very stale with the 24/7 Obama/McCain.

Any ideas on what you fellows would like to have? It will be far superior than townhall. It will include interactive you tube links, mp3's, article feeds that include J. Corsi, Paul Craig Roberts, etc. It will have what they call at townhall a junior blogger section, but depending on the articles they will be fed to the main site....

Any ideas?

..
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Saturday, August, 23, 2008 10:30 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Sam

We need a site that appeals to conservatives and right-leaning moderates who are fed up with having to choose between two liberals every election. IMHO, this year will end with only one major party surviving. If McCain wins, both parties are destroyed because with the Dems gone, the GOP now takes over the Dem agenda without opposition. They are only interested in being in power, not in furthering what is best for America. If the Dems win, the GOP leadership will be flushed out but the party will be in disarray at every level. The real opportunity will be for congressmen, particularly Blue Dogs and GOP conservatives, to meld into forming a core party that can claim 35-40% of Americans. The claim to the "fuzzy middle" is what both uber-liberal parties seize on to argue that 38% (Dems) and 22% (GOP) makes them major parties. Shouldn't be hard to create a majority party that is right of center if there were a place to congregate that isn't whoring itself out to a party or corporate-owned sponsorship.

There are lots of us out there but we are scattered because there are no conservative sites.
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Saturday, August, 23, 2008 10:59 AM Sam writes:

A real conservative site is coming

It may take a while however it will incorporate a conservative area from a different point of view.

That is what is missing. The articles coming out of Washington are stale and the people writing them have done this for 40 years in DC? I mean it is that ridiculous.

So the idea is to put together a site that incorporates and engages in real issues, real econonmics, not pop culture personalities like Obama vs. McCain.

It will include financial mp3 feeds, you tube clips, feeds / articles, and an interactive blog for users to sign up and actually have articles posted on the main site with other mainstream conservative columnist. I have a couple more in mind (i.e. Joseph Farah, etc.)

Users can be more engaged in real discussions rather than the political pop culture from Washington D.C. Americans are so sick of Washington D.C. right now.

.....
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Saturday, August, 23, 2008 11:17 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Sam

Agreed. Sign me up. The hard part will be wedding theory to solutions. Ultimately, politics factors in and right now, politics trumps everything at every level. If truth mattered, the world's elites wouldn't be promoting a new world order based on global warming. People just aren't interested in truth, they just can't be bothered. Just try to get an intelligent discussion going on energy. Impossible. Even brilliant people like Dr. David Goodstein of CalTech can't follow his own logic.

If I can make one suggestion, don't try to be too broad in focus. "Conservative" is not a real, well-defined term. It is more of an attitude. I would focus on something very specific, something that captures the essence of what is wrong with everything (intrusive government) and build on that. No matter where you start, it quickly gets complicated and scattered. I just don't think blogs and open-discussion websites work without a moderator to move the discussion along.

Remember, the internet is an excellent conspiracy tool but lousy for propaganda. You end up building an echo chamber, a dead end if you are trying to refine a message that will resonate in the real, broader world.
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Saturday, August, 23, 2008 11:32 AM Sam writes:

Pasadena Phil

I think after this election (just speculation) Americans will be tired of all the propaganda.

There is a huge opportunity here. Completely untapped. Sites just can't feed Obama/McCain/Guilaini. Everybody has heard their story - and there is no substance.

People are looking for substance, not style. The media has it wrong in what we want. It is time to build something that caters to that.

Phil, there are many more angles and other sites that feed into conservative sites. You have extreme sites Alex Jones which get equal the # of hits on National Review). There is financialsense.com which is #30,000 on world sites, world net daily, and other alternative sources) that have not fed into a main forum. No one yet has glued them together into one site and that is what is missing.

Consolidating those sites (ideas) into one site that feeds information that is based on issues is an opportunity, especially when so many people are disenchanted w/ the political system.

..
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Saturday, August, 23, 2008 11:43 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Sam

I agree that there is a big opportunity but...

"The media has it wrong in what we want. It is time to build something that caters to that."

The media doesn't care what we want and except for a minority of us who spend a lot of time chasing down facts, I don't get the feeling that most people care about much of anything.

I'm not saying that it is a waste of time. Heck, I will be starting an e-zine of my one at some point. My main point is to start out being very focused on one point and branch out. It takes a lot of traffic to make successful and it can evaporate instantly if people get bored or you get something wrong.

We live in an upside down world where science is an enemy of religion, where liberals are now conservatives, where Republicans can only win be cross-dressing as Democrats, where 80% of Americans can demand border control but be labeled as bigots by their leaders, and so on. It is very, very hard to gain a toe-hold on anything today unless it benefits the one-worlders. Death by smear and ridicule rules the day.
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Saturday, August, 23, 2008 10:19 PM Tazzmax writes:

Phil and Sam'

I like your ideas!
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Tuesday, August, 26, 2008 8:22 AM Sgt Relic writes:

Sam and Phil

A new site with a conservative thrust would be welcome. I'll echo Phil on some of the problems inherent to political sites rather than larger issues such as the role of government.

Forum moderators tend to turn into big brother. (why I left GOPUSA.com) I like sites that allow for comment and usually don't waste time on those that don't. Closed communities like Malkin's aren't much better. I usually read her over here at TH where I can offer comment.

Sam, let me know how your plans develop. I'd be interested in hearing more detail as you develop it.
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Tuesday, August, 26, 2008 8:25 AM Sgt Relic writes:

PPHil

It looks like you and Brian had a nice day at the range.
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Tuesday, August, 26, 2008 6:20 PM Sam writes:

Sgt. Relic and Phil

Thinking of American sovereignty/limited govt. as a focused topic. Think of starting out as Phil said a narrow focus and gradually expand as see fit.

I think there is an enormous opportunity. Most Americans both Republican and Democrat believe in American sovereignty/limited govt. Topics could focus on illegal immigration, legal immigration, necessary govt. depts/unecessary govt departments (Current Article feeds and federalist papers in regars to national sovereignty/role of govt).

Start small and with a focus. Then branch out. Let me know.

...
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Tuesday, August, 26, 2008 9:07 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Sam

I think that is a great idea. Our sovereignty is an all-encompassing issue that most conservatives are placing too low on their list of issues. I don't think they understand that our big government is now working to undermine our sovereignty under the umbrella of "free trade". Constitutions and national sovereignty are now cast aside as just barriers to conducting international trade efficiently. You can see what "fast tracking" around the will of the people has gotten us in this country. Our government simply refuses to defend our borders and neither of the "major" parties is listening to the voters.
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Wednesday, August, 27, 2008 11:12 AM Sgt Relic writes:

I agree

Sam, those issues alone can take things in a lot of different directions. All of the major issues of the day have their casual factors in some departure from the constitution.

The further we drift from original intent the more trouble we get into as a nation. Without sovereignty the rest is just so much ink on paper. It is what was won by our armed revolution and made all of our claimed liberties a reality.

This sounds to me like a good subject to start your new enterprise.
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Wednesday, August, 27, 2008 11:37 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Sarge

That is exactly right. I spend all day, every day, researching issues and problems so I can attest to the statement that the root of every major problem that is dominating the news has its roots in our government trying to control everything. Behind that is a business plan being foisted through K Street that is crowding out our national interests and stamping out any public discussion that allows voters to be heard. This government is bought and paid for from the top down and nothing demonstrates that more than how major legislation is being fast-tracked around the traditional committee processes and forced onto the floor for a vote with no one knowing what is even in the bill.

Remember last year when Senator Kyl turned to Hugh to dissect the amnesty bill that he re-introduced with his own name on it? Even Kyl didn't know what was in his own bill. That is now standard procedure. The leadership of both parties just recently tried to foist an omnibus bill that would have lumped EVERYTHING into one bill. It failed because it was too audacious and conservatives in the House stopped it.

Another thing that attests to the globalists control of our government is how the national leadership of both parties, although united around the same agenda, are failing in trying to cram that agenda onto their own rank and file members. That is because Congressmen have to face re-election every two years and although the DNC and RNC don't care, these guys felt the full brunt of the McCain-Kennedy-Bush cram down in November 2006. The new Dem-led Congress has actually been more effective in killing the liberal agenda than the GOP-led Congress. There is a good reason for that: they heard us in November. They need to hear us again this November.

We can't worry about who becomes president. We need to come out of the election with Congress propped up and the national parties feeling nervous. Fighting for our sovereignty is EVERYTHING this year.
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Wednesday, August, 27, 2008 8:16 PM BrianR writes:

Phil


I just posted a new essay of sputtering conservative outrage.

Come on DO-O-O-O-WN!

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Wednesday, August, 27, 2008 10:10 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

You didn't tell me you and Brian had finally gotten together to go shooting. I left comments over at Brian's. Wish I lived closer(but not in the People's Republic of CA) so we could all go shooting.
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Wednesday, August, 27, 2008 10:36 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Vpat

You need to resend me an e-mail so I have your e-mail address. I lost it when I had my coffee incident earlier this year and destroyed my old laptop.

You never know, we may be able to have a group shoot out somewhere some day.
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Friday, August, 29, 2008 1:08 PM Gray Ghost writes:

Pasadena Phil

Gov. Sarah Palin has been selected by McCain as his VP running mate. Details at my site.
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Friday, August, 29, 2008 2:45 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

PPhil it's getting real bad

I don't think anyone can accuse us of being pro-Obama more than anti-McCain, right? But did you see Obama's speech? I thought it was smart, inspiring, and near great. With caveats of course. These Pavlovians/Myrmidons can't seem to see over their Repub glasses.

Obama only scares me a bit about foreign policy. And we will lose jobs if he gets his business policy pushed through (which he won't).

Anyway, just wanted to know if I'm crazy or are our Repub friends homers?
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Friday, August, 29, 2008 3:14 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Scarlet

I thought the Dems did a great job. Even Biden's speech was excellent. The key was when Hillary called for giving Obama the nomination by acclamation. That freed everyone else to on to the main business of going after McCain. Few at TH are detached enough to see things realistically. I think Republicans are vastly under-rating what it means to having a credible black candidate running. The Dems do. McCain is NOT going to win over Hillary's army of liberal lesbians.

I like Palin a lot but I just don't see why we should waste her on a ticket whose platform runs against everything she stands for. She has no experience and if I were on Obama's campaign staff, I would be going after her sincerity about being a "new Republican". McCain plans on re-defining conservatism and Republicans the same way William Shanter re-defined popular music with this:

http://www.amazon.com/Transformed-Man-William-Shatner/dp/B 0000014WS

He re-defined popular music by making it unpopular.
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Friday, August, 29, 2008 3:41 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

right.

I don't agree with everything the Dem/libs said but I appreciated how they put it out there.

Don't know if the Dem/libs can get away with "picking on" Palin. The Press probably will let them slide since their Dem/libs.

I like Palin too. Voters will think twice now because they may want a woman VP for history's sake. But, in the short run, I think this will hurt her career though. She'll have to end up apologizing for 4 more of Bush's years with Maverick.

I think NOW, after Obama's run to the middle and promise of tax relief, Maverick might lose.
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Saturday, August, 30, 2008 1:50 PM xpressit writes:

Phil

Another one of the nuances is that we will, and are, being blamed anyway. At least there has to be comments about it from our shores. I saw Gorbachev make the case in the MSM that we are largely the basis for their action. Anyway, time will tell.
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Saturday, August, 30, 2008 2:15 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Xpressitou

I think Putin is trying to influence the presidential race but is misreading the situation. So far, he has isolated Russia diplomatically. He appealed to China, Cuba and Venezuela to officially recognize the independence of Georgia and Abkhazia but they all refused. You can tell from some of the comments here that even "conservatives" are inclined to "blame America first" on this one.

There's a confrontation building on the Black Sea between our Navy (how did they get on a land-locked inland sea?) and Russia's. It's all about hindering the Russians as they try to use the various ports like Sevastopol. The Russians don't have the resources to conduct ongoing military adventures and risk getting bogged down everywhere. So far, the Bush administration has floundered big (again) creating the appearance that we are too timid to use our advantages. This is creating a situation where many of our "friends" and enemies fear that we will bumble our way into a prolonged cold war by being unwilling to nip this in the bud.

There is only one country on earth that has the resources and economic infrastructure to fight a global war by itself and it is us. One of the reasons that our stock markets are showing strength is because the world is having second thoughts about having so much invested in emerging markets (Russia is suffering massive capital flight) and feels safer putting their money here. That also helps to explain the dollar's strength.

There is a sense, although muted, that we may be heading to war. I posted a quote somewhere that I can't find at the moment but to paraphrase: "The West is desperate to believe that Russia and China changed after the collapse of the Soviet Union but the fact is that it is WE who have changed."

It would be one of the classic ironies of history were the free world to collapse in the face of a defeated enemy due to cowardice.
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Sunday, August, 31, 2008 4:06 PM Keys to the Right writes:

I wish

Dubya would get a clue and realize that Putin isn't his buddy. This is what you get when you let an ex-KGB take the helm, thanks a lot Yeltzin.
I'm gonna check out the links you sent me shortly, Phil, thanks for stopping by.
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Sunday, August, 31, 2008 4:42 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Thanks Keys!

Jevica just posted an interesting link there too. From Michelle Malkin pointing out that Palin was governor of a sanctuary state and gave no indication that she cared. Open borders, anti-business, tax raiser, global warming... okay she's a former model but so what? Wasn't Angelina Jolie available?
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Monday, September, 01, 2008 11:54 PM Sam writes:

Building the internal blog site

I will be building the internatl site. This blog stuff on Townhall is really bad.

So is Sarah Palin. What a bust. Not as bad as Fred Thompson.

Obama and the Dems will have substantial majorites after '08 (absolute disaster).

I am not even sure the Republicans will fully function as a party after '08. They will be competitive w/ the Constitution Party and Libertarians. There are so many sites now, that are eating their shorts (lewrockwell.com, dailypaul.com, financialsense.com, etc.)

These news orgs. at politico (bunch of hip hop politics) talk about how the GOP is passed the stage of "BUSH" Denial. That is another bold faced lie. The GOP is censoring new people who are opposed to illegal immigration and the IRAQ war in the FL. GOP. They are not even welcomed. I can tell you flat out, that Nov. 2008 will be fatal for the Republicans. This will be worse than Nixon.

This new site will address issues none of the GOP will address..

I am not sure that the GOP will get its act after 2008. The GOP's days could very well be numbered.

....
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Tuesday, September, 02, 2008 10:11 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Sam

I have to laugh because as I read your comment, I was listening to a GOP spokesman bemoaning how everyone is obsessed with Palin's daughter's pregnancy when there are serious issues to discuss. Oh really? Serious issues? Like "electibility"? Like McCain is bad but Obama would trigger the end of civilization although both are pushing the same exact agenda?

I agree with you too that Townhall has really lost it. The comment sections have been taken over completely by paid McCain operatives. TH is now the preferred echo chamber for nutty liberal Republicans. It's the GOP Daily Kos.

Check out yesterday's Kevin McCullough posts. BrianR and I shut it down when we called out McCullough. He resorted to name-calling rather than engage in argument. We nailed him for misrepresenting/spinning Palin's record for gouging oil companies.

These other sites you mention need to interlink to become effective. That's the power of blogs and right now, anyone who wants to have a serious discussion about issues has nowhere to go. Let me know when you have something going.
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Tuesday, September, 02, 2008 7:25 PM Sam writes:

Here is sample stuff - web

http://www.constitutionliberty.com

http://www.cafepress.com/freedomliberty

These sites are for selling products via the internet.

This site (forum/discussion) will be an application where users will put their own blogs and be part of the forefront discussion with other authors. The focus of this application is strictly sovereignty and limited government.

....
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Tuesday, September, 02, 2008 7:47 PM Sam writes:

Hit KMC..

These media people are right brain. No common sense. Look at Huffington, you can't talk any sense to her. She still believes the earth is flat and we have man made global warming.

...
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Tuesday, September, 02, 2008 9:32 PM Sam writes:

Meant Hit Piece on KMC..

Both you and BrianR did a hit job on his blog.

...
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Tuesday, September, 02, 2008 10:11 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Sam

Yeah, but KMC started it calling Brian a bloviator then denying it then following it up by instructing everyone that Brian is an Obama activist. Total idiot. I can't believe that guy has his own radio show. Lazy.
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Wednesday, September, 03, 2008 8:22 AM Darvin Dowdy writes:

PPhil...

...I doubt if "W" has the backbone to do what is really needed. And that is to send in load after load of stinger missles and some of our latest anti-tank / anti-helicopter armaments. Hand held stuff. Easy to smuggle in, etc. Same strategy used in Afghanistan. Put Charlie Wilson in charge. He's still around. DD
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Saturday, September, 06, 2008 12:10 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Darvin: on militarizing the Georgians

Won't happen and it's not about "W" not having the spine. It doesn't make sense to militarize the region at this point. The Russians have stripped Georgia of all military equipment and armaments other than small weapons (which is the only thing we ever supplied them). Just read a report today that our Navy is crowding the Russians in the Black Sea ports. That is guaranteed to rankle those Ruskies.
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Sunday, September, 07, 2008 12:21 AM philosophocon writes:

Not to change the topic, but

I have a three-part installment up at my place looking at McCain's recent legislative record.
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Sunday, September, 07, 2008 12:38 PM BrianR writes:

Phil


You'll see a new essay up next time you come by.
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Wednesday, September, 10, 2008 10:54 AM ScarletPimpernel writes:

PPhil

Dcat's got a good thread going...
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Wednesday, September, 10, 2008 10:58 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

Scarlet

I'll check it out but Dave has really gone off the deep end lately. Can't tell the difference between him and Steve Baloney and DNC Joe.
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Wednesday, September, 10, 2008 11:20 AM BrianR writes:

Phil, pro forma heads up


Another aspect of the topic du jour up at my place.

I know you'll see it shortly anyway.

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Saturday, September, 13, 2008 7:11 PM Sam writes:

A new townhall site is being developed

A new townhall forum site that includes articles/discussions which address issues with US national sovereignty and limited / fiscal government is being developed. If you are interested in obtaining information about when the site will be released and the status please send me your information which includes an email address, a handle name that you used for townhall, your first name (optional), and if you are interested in performing any testing to the site.

I am in the design stages of developing the new townhall discussion site (US sovereignty/limited government) and would be able to give you a status of when it is ready to be in the user testing stage. This site will address real issues that our country faces and will not address personalities running for president or vice president.

I know many of you are frustrated with the lack of real issues that are not being addressed on any of these political discussion websites.

Once you send me an email, I will respond in regards to the email and then we can move forward. I hope you will be a member of this new townhall / forum site.

The email address to send contact information is:
usasovereignty@yahoo.com

Thanks,

Sam

....
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Monday, September, 15, 2008 1:50 PM Gray Ghost writes:

PP

In a few days, I will probably come out on the McCain/Palin ticket. The reason will be clear after tomorrow.

Check my site for new articles (one that I promised I would write 35 years ago).

Also, tomorrow check my site for an article about the oil fields in the USA. Scr*w Red Nanny and the rest of her minions!

What I will print tomorrow will blow the Dumbocraps out of the water and probably force me to support the McCain/Palin ticket.
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Tuesday, September, 16, 2008 7:46 PM Keys to the Right writes:

Hey Phil

Shameless Plug time!
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Sunday, October, 12, 2008 12:53 PM Cynewulf writes:

Nice work on this, Phil

Any updates on it?
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Tuesday, October, 21, 2008 9:41 AM ScarletPimpernel writes:

PPhil

I've made it easy for you to decide how to vote. Come on by.
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Tuesday, November, 04, 2008 6:12 PM Sam writes:

Jevica

Crazy, I think not.

I am a C# Web developer. I know what I am talking about when it comes to IP addresses, machine names, and TCP protocols, and what HUBS track IP addresses.

Atlanta is one of the main hubs where IP addresses are routed before they hop from machine to machine through an Http request to a web server which is rendered on a computing server.

Wikepedia "Web 2.0"-read and research it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0

Read up on sodium flouride and what it does on Wikepedia, it is most of your food products

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_poisoning

Aspartame- poison in all your foods-causes brain tumors, lesions, etc late in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame_controversy

Google the Federal Reserve. It was not around until 1913. You think our founding fathers supported this unconstitutional act by Woodrow Wilson. When you really find out what this private banking cartel is doing, you wouldn't tolerate what is happening w/ our government.

Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh who is crazy and is on drugs.

The mainstream media never gets it right so why would you trust their sources. They couldn't get it right on the economy so why would they get it now.

You call it crazy, I say it is waking up to who controls the media and the money supply. If you want to debate about web 2.0 and the govt. involvement be my guest.

Jevica, you may call me crazy, but I don't live in the dark ages and I decide to choose to think for myself and not have someone think for me. Then again as asoftware developer you can't afford to design systems without thinking for yourself.

..
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Tuesday, November, 04, 2008 6:14 PM Sam writes:

Jevica

Jevica
Crazy, I think not.

I am a C# Web developer. I know what I am talking about when it comes to IP addresses, machine names, and TCP protocols, and what HUBS track IP addresses.

Atlanta is one of the main hubs where IP addresses are routed before they hop from machine to machine through an Http request to a web server which is rendered on a computing server.

Wikepedia "Web 2.0"-read and research it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0

Read up on sodium flouride and what it does on Wikepedia, it is most of your food products

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_poisoning

Aspartame- poison in all your foods-causes brain tumors, lesions, etc late in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame_controversy

Google the Federal Reserve. It was not around until 1913. You think our founding fathers supported this unconstitutional act by Woodrow Wilson. When you really find out what this private banking cartel is doing, you wouldn't tolerate what is happening w/ our government.

Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh who is crazy and is on drugs.

The mainstream media never gets it right so why would you trust their sources. They couldn't get it right on the economy so why would they get it now.

You call it crazy, I say it is waking up to who controls the media and the money supply. If you want to debate about web 2.0 and the govt. involvement be my guest.

Jevica, you may call me crazy, but I don't live in the dark ages and I decide to choose to think for myself and not have someone think for me. Then again as asoftware developer you can't afford to design systems without thinking for yourself.

..
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Saturday, November, 15, 2008 2:16 AM Georgetwin writes:

PPhil

Fresh Blog Available!
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Friday, February, 06, 2009 10:51 AM Edamon50 writes:

New Post

Come by the Spade when time allows.
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