Welcome to the Party!

But the whole time I was reading it, I kept thinking that if you changed "Democrat" to "GOP" and "net roots" to "conservative bloggers", you were also describing the situation on our side of the ideological aisle.

What do you think?

_____________________________

Time for my usual shameless plug.

I just posted my long-awaited new essay at the Island. Come on down.....!

I think the difference is that we conservative blogger do not fancy ourselves, for the most part, as king makers. We try to give our opinions and persuade others to our POV without threats, name calling, or insults. We seem to know that our power is limited to persuasion and that we have no power over the national Party, except at the ballot box. We have not deluded ourselves into thinking that we are going to somehow run the Party, and that if Party leaders displease us they are going to pay some horrific price. We are more realistic in our aims and attitudes about what we do than the liberals are, just like in most other areas!

I don't agree that they are the equivalent to conservative bloggers, though. To me the nut roots of the left are more analogous to the far-right Republican extreme that exists mostly in the MSM's imagination and finds its way from there to their reporting without much in the way of fact-checking.

I see them as more like the left's version of a less-intelligent, more knee-jerk and overtly racist Pat Buchanan-type paleocon movement.

I like your closing sentence, quite appropriate. Although I must say that it seems to me that, shockingly, despite the rhetoric not all of those on the Democrat plantation are equal. I would say that the nut roots are probably a bigger source of money than votes for the Dems, whereas blacks or the poor probably offer more votes than money. The nut roots are probably more similar to gays in that respect.

As a result, I'd be willing to bet that the nut roots, like the gays, will likely to be pandered to more during the primaries than the general election. I can't see the Dems holding a gay debate or attending a Kos convention shortly before the general election, for example, at least not yet. In that respect, I think that perhaps they may have a bit more of a role as king-maker, at least moreso than conservative bloggers seem to have within the Republican party at the moment.

I think you have a pretty good handle on this one. Your further exposition to Brian confirms that. It's a matter or passion on the left vs. intellect on the right.

Look at the "ideas" being championed by the Kos Kids:
End the war! (and then what will happen?)
Bush Lied (he didn't but Clinton certainly did.)
Spying on our enemies is wrong! (Why?)
Guantanamo is a gulag! (On which planet?)

The list is endless. It's like trying to reason with a five year old. They are wrong, but they don't have enough intellectual honesty to realize they are wrong; and no amount of fact or persuasion seems to get through. All you get for your trouble is epithetic labels and snark in return.

Seems like the Kos Kids are a perfect fit with the Democratic party to me.

I am going to respond in descending order to your responses, so here goes:

Philos: I agree that the pandering will be done in the primaries because that is where the nut roots can have their most influence. They have shown they can turn out enough people to nominate a candidate, but they can't get one elected.

Scottie: You're right, the nut roots are all passion and no thought. They exist in a world where they are governed by bumper sticker slogans (Bush Lied) where facts are, at best, optional. No amount of logic, reason, or facts will persuade them from what they have determined to be true.

Doc: I don't believe that the nut roots are new voters, but they are starting to develop into a new bloc of voters. The net gives them a way to network and organize---and raise money for their preferred candidates. This sense of participation is what can give them some voice in the Democratic Party, because they have the ability to raise money; and that means the Democrats will pander to them just like any other group they pander to. Money makes the political world go around and the amount of money the nut roots can raise makes them a voice the Democrats will listen to---and then ignore like all the rest!

I wasn't talking about the irrationality of the Lefty bloggers being comparable; of course, that's not the case.

In my parallel, what I was talking about was the fact that the party regulars are trying to marginalize the base -- including us and those like us -- the same way.

I get what your driving at, but I still disagree somewhat. I don't think of the nut roots as being the party base of the Democrats but as being a very vocal fringe. They see themselves as the power of the Party and they aren't at all. The Republican base is being marginalized by the GOP, but like I said the net roots don't really represent the base of the Dems, that is why it would be so easy to marginalize them.

We will have to disagree on this. That fringe has, I think, become the Dem base, which is why they're catered to, such as at the KOS convention. The Dems have become fractionalized into a bunch of radical special interest fringe groups; the radical Left has kidnapped the party. Exhibit A: Joe Lieberman. You view it as a defeat for the nuts, I view it as one for the main Dem party. Why? Because they went along with their base.

He is, after all, serving as an Independant.

Of course, the Dems are willing accomplices. It's actually the reverse of our situation, as I reassess this. The Dems cater to their Leftist base, the GOP wants to ignore and disown theirs.


BTW, as to a few thousand votes not determining the outcome of Presidential elections, I have to point out that both of Bush's victories were determined by only a couple thousand voters.

First, I agree with Brian's original comment (sans the "shameless plug").


Second, what it the "base?" Base: a foundation on which to build something.

The GOP's base is composed of unifying core principles that are clearly defined.

The left's base, We all agree, is composed of a myriad of factions: greenies, socialists, feminists, racial.....etc. But what is it that unifies them in order for them to build on top of it? Answer: the abject hate for Us. That's were We get the "all passion and no thought."

I too agree with BrianR that conservatives are in a similar position in the GOP as the yellow dog roots are in the Dem party. Without the knee jerk votes of the self-perceived victim base, the Dems have no hope of winning anything. The victim base consists of red diaper babies who haven't wised up yet, a huge percent of blacks, and generally any voter who is envious of others or bitter with his lot, to the point he wants to believe he is a victim of the system, global warming, rapacious corporations, the oil lobby, whatever. These people, Flagwaver, do have outsize influence in the primaries. I only hope the conservatives can do the same sort of thing, to better effect, in 08. The RINOs can't ignore conservatives if they are not nominated. The big advantage we have is that as has been often noted, when the GOP puts a principled conservative up, he tends to win big. When the left roots select some favorite, like say, McGovern, it winds up in a pasting. Therefore the candidates tend to kiss up to the more left and more right during the primaries, then move towards the center. The DEMs seem to do this better than the Repubs, but that may be because rightwingers tend to be better informed, with better memories, and less willing to excuse a lie just because its said by a member of their party. Romney and Giuliani are taking heat from previous positions and statements they now contradict. I don't see much of the same problems for Hilary.

Did BrianR put in a shameless plug somewhere? I am so used to tuning them out i guess i didn't notice. If i read 'em all, i would have no time for anything else 8-D.

You TUNE OUT my shameless plugs???????


I'm going to flag that as an offensive post, and send you back to Siberia!!!!!!!

Could i be getting flagged as offensive? I still have no idea why i get zapped, or how i got back on. My intentions are to play fair, avoid name calling, state true facts(within the limitations of memory)and propose logical extrapolations of the current situation. Considering some of the far out charges of the drivebyposters, and the highly emotional responses, i should think a lot of people would be more likely to be flagged. Its true there are some nicks i haven't seen lately. Skip, GunnyG, Goshawk. Have they been 86ed?

Jimmy: I suppose then that in a sense the left is what the old spirituals call "shifting sands", as they have no solid foundation. That is why they are all over the palce on all sorts of issues.

Savage99: I completely agree that the conservative base needs to mimic the left in recognizing the importance of primaries. If we could put up the conservative candidates we want in the primaries, the Party faithful would vote for him, because that's what they do. They will support any candidate with an (R) by their name, so we need to give them a candidate to get behind.

BrianR: I understand very well the slim margins of both of W's victories and I don't discount the votes of a few thousand. My thing is that the netroots aren't really getting any new voters out there, just reorganizing the left's faithful into a new bloc of voters!

We will see if they have power or not this election. They are going to get their candidate nominated. They have the money for the ads and for the organizing. They have the eye of the media, and they have the allegiance of any Democrat who wants to be re-elected. In some ways, they are even setting the debate.

The ticket of Hillary and Barak will be their dream team. We will see.

By the way, stop over. I have a new post on "Our Broken Military".