Petraeus is like a dog.

you write: "Petraeus had almost no choice in what he was to report on. That is what the MoveOn ad said."

If that is what the MoveOn ad said then they would also be saying that the President and Congress betrayed us? For it is Congress and President that set the standards to be used.

I admire your pluck for defending MoveOn yet I wonder if you apply your previous standards used in opposition to the Swift Boat veterans to those behind the MoveOn ad?

I actually was going to send an angry email to moveon when I first heard about the ad, figuring it would do harm to the democratic position. But I did take a look at the ad on their website and at their reasoning and concluded that the points they make are valid.

I would say the "Betray us" is over the top and imprecise. The word "us" implies all Americans and this is not true. Conservatives support the surge and are not included in "us." Nor does Petraeus have the intent to directly betray the rest of us. I think the ad designers just got carried away with their own cleverness. Nevertheless, in looking at the rational given on the moveon web site I think they make valid points and I support their democratic (as opposed to elitist) right to express their opinion. The general works for us, including democrats and liberals as well as conservatives.

Took an oath to defend and protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. If moveon had any documentation that shows the General lied in his report that yes that would be a betrayal and it would be a court-martial offense under the UCMJ. The General followed a lawful order from the Commander in Chief, who was elected by the people of the United States. The Congress could have easily stopped the surge by their use of their Constitutional "power of the purse". If anyone betrayed "us" (as defined by moveon) then it was the Democrat controlled Congress, whom also were elected by the people of the United States.

However you justify their use of the word betray, the General did not betray the Constitution nor the citizens of the United States, liberal or conservative. It is libel and slander against the General and actually a very cowardly attack as the aforementioned UCMJ prevents the General from taking any action against moveon. Just as the Congress is cowardly in their providing the benchmarks and reporting procedure of the report then falsely claiming that the administration was providing the report and not General Petraeus. They required the report from the administration not the general in the hope that they could use it against the Republicans. Instead they brought shame to themselves by their actions and words when the General was before Congress (i.e. requires the willful suspension of disbelief).

There is too much to respond to in the above post, at least for the moment and I want to move on to another subject if you don't mind.

You did a typical conservative thing in one of your posts that drives me wild - Hannity being perhaps the greatest exponent of this technique.

The technique is to say that a democrat or liberal "should have done X or Y or Z." I think that's invalid. It's easy to take anybody in a given situation or a decision they made and come up with lots of alternatives they "should have done." In your case you said that Kerry didn't introduce any legislation about veterans. But I will bet that he didn't introduce any legislation about Ethiopians, chocolate ice cream or the Beach Boys. Point is there is an unlimited number of things to criticize people on that they didn't do. It's only bounded by your own imagination.

OK,your turn. What habit of liberal thought drives you crazy.

liberal thought. Sorry, I am not a mind reader and am only able to comment on observable actions. :)

As to Kerry, I find that when one says they will do X then I should expect that X will happen. He made many statements to veterans, like myself, to garner the vote yet, did not fulfill any of the statements. It is a matter of accepting responsibility for one's actions (statements) and the consequences that result whether good or bad.

I will say that the liberal comment about conservatives that "if I (the conservative) or a family member isn't serving in the military then I should just shut up". Then when I point out that I am a retired, disabled veteran of 22 years and my daughter is an active duty Marine (tours in the kitty litter) they whine about some other reason why I shouldn't comment. Same goes for illegal immigration seeing as how my wife and two of my children are immigrants and my mother was an immigrant.

I don't have a problem with you commenting on anything.

You are completely wrong.

Betrayal is an active, conscious action, and yet you want to suggest that the ad merely paints him as a passive, unempowered lackey?

Nice try. The ad is an agressive attack on his character, not an attempt to paint him as some sort of innocent bystander.

I'm reading into this but my view is that first this ad is conscious hyperboly, but can't say what the intent or expectations actually were.

Second, I see some conscious tragedy in the ad. Petraeus not so much passive as caught in a web of circumstance and character that he must play out.

The interesting thing to me in all of this is that Moveon must have anticipated a firestorm and wanted a firestorm for some reason. Whether they will get the outcome they wanted we won't know unless they tell us or someone writes a tell all book in a few years.

conscious hyperbole? Conscious tragedy?

In your world, it's never what it appears to be on the surface. It's always about the nuance, the subtle undertones.

This is the problem with liberal "thought."

PL wrote: "Petraeus not so much passive as caught in a web of circumstance and character that he must play out."

Petraeus was following the orders of the civilian leadership which includes the President and Congress. He is bound by his oath and the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) which is the altered (by Congress) rights that military personnel are required to accept as a condition of their entering the military. If it is a tragedy then it is one that has been perpetrated by the civilian leadership in Congress. That is why I disagree with your assumption about Petraeus, for the UCMJ was enacted to ensure the military did not stage a coup and that the civilian leadership of the government had control over military actions.

If anything it is the Democrat led Congress that betrayed MoveOn not the military. Hyperbole is a fancy way of saying male bovine excrement in PC language.

I said that I don't know. I'm just guessing. Moveon did want to get a reaction. They got one. We just don't know if it is the reaction they thought they'd get, though my opinion is that it is. Their intention was to stir things up.

I listen to Limbaugh rarely now, but listened to him steadily for seven years during the Clinton administration. I hope Limbaugh doesn't really believe what he says. But whether he does or not it's apparent that just about everything he says is intended to stir things up, to get the juices of his audience flowing and boiling; get his audience incensed at the dastardly, evil, godless liberals. I always imagine his listeners having a unified climax when he brings 15 million viewers over the top at the same time.
Limbaugh practices conscious hyperbole.

Since I'd been doing this from memory I just went back to the Moveon web page and looked at the ad again and the documentation and the new article on the thoughts behind the ad. I'd recommend that you both do the same.

Basically, the ad took issue with the way violence was counted and what was left out by Petraeus and Crocker. Certainly they didn't talk about the ethnic cleansing as a possible cause for reduced violence.

The fact is that you can get these other observations from numerous sources. Had Petraeus and Crocker wanted to be entirely forthcoming they would have included ALL the information that was available. That they were selective and did not include or allude to ALL the information available is suspicious.

I may have read the tragedy into this myself. It may not have been an intention of Moveone. Yet, I do see that.

Also, I am inspired by our discussions to add a new blog to TownHall about Conservative Elitism: The Military. It will be short.