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Comment on: Reformation Man

Regarding the Covenants of Redemption and Grace

115 Comments
Saturday, August, 18, 2007 12:34 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Valiant for Truth?


From your posts I thought you were a hyper and now you have confirmed it. You do not believe in evangelism and you completely disregard the passages in your bible that offer salvation to all men. There are many of these, but you take a few verses out of context to prove your perversions of the bible. You probably agree with the Hillsboro Baptists.

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Saturday, August, 18, 2007 5:09 PM Flame writes:

WWM

I feel great sorrow that you are following the path of liberal theology and its denial of Scripture. Evangelism is based on spreading the Gospel, that is offered to all. However not all shall receive and come to faith in Christ. It is only one part of Christianity. There is also preaching, teaching, etc.

I would suggest however that your assumption about agreeing with Hillsboro Baptist is out of line and not logical. Valiant has not disregarded the passages nor taken it out of context, nor have I. Just for your information, I am a retired, disabled veteran with special ops experience and a daughter that is an active duty Marine. Hillsboro Baptist is a blight to religion and desecrates Christianity in general and Baptists in particular.
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Saturday, August, 18, 2007 6:44 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Agreeing with Flame

WWM, I'm a Southern Baptist in the extremely military state of Alaska. Several of my closest friends are in the service. Several more are retired from the service. Hillsboro "Baptist" is not in any way connected to other Baptists. It's one nut in a family of nuts who has built a building and called it a church.

Valiant and I have been hanging out on each other's back porches for a year now. We don't completely agree on everything. He is a Calvinist, true enough, but he also believes and engages in evangelism. He's spent considerable effort on my blog trying to help someone see that there is only one path to God, Jesus Christ. He expressed his sorrow that the particular visitor was unable to accept Gospel truth.

I'm going to post a second part to get around the word-limit on posts.
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Saturday, August, 18, 2007 6:45 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

A question for Mr. WWMan...


It is no accident that Romans 10 follows Romans 9. These two chapters provide the Biblical balance between sovereignty and responsibility. Chapter 10 puts to death the doctrines of hyper-Calvinism…’How shall they believe without a preacher?’

The God ordained means of calling the elect is through the preaching of the gospel to all men without distinction. Did you know that some of the first and greatest missionaries were historic Calvinists? Their doctrine motivated them to go to the mission field and encouraged them in the work, because they believed that the elect would respond when they heard the gospel.

Regarding the Hillsboro church: they have taken the message of Jeremiah and reduced it to judgment only. This is the age of grace. God will accept all who repent and believe the gospel. Our message should be to flee from the wrath to come. Where shall we flee? There is but one place to flee and that is directly to the Lord Jesus Christ.


I suppose you refer to passages like the following that indicate that Christ is the Savior of all men.

‘For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.’ [I Timothy 4:10]

Let me reply by posing the following question to you…

If Christ is the Savior of all men, then why are there passages in the Bible warning about the judgment to come? Like the following...


‘But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.’ [Matthew 11:22]

‘But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God…’ [Romans 2:5]

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Saturday, August, 18, 2007 6:51 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Part 2 for WWM

Jesus died for everyone! He died for Adam and Eve, for everyone who has ever lived since and everyone who will live in the future. He died for Pontus Pilate, Judas Iscariot, Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot. Think of any evil person who has ever existed in this world and Jesus died for them.

That's why preaching the gospel through all available means is vitally necessary. My pastor is a retired Army counter-intelligence agent who got to share the gospel with Noriega. God sends us down mysterious paths and puts people in those paths so that no one will be without excuse for dying in sin.

That doesn't mean that everybody's going to be saved. There's still that little issue of letting go of control of your life and letting Jesus remake you. Most people won't do it. Even when they hear the gospel, they simply cannot accept it. That's hard. I care about a lot of people who just won't accept it. But, God didn't make the choice for them. They made the choice for themselves.

They choose to spend their lives seperated from God. God gives them the dignity of that choice. If they didn't want to spend their lives in God's presence, worshipping through faith in Jesus, then they certainly aren't going to enjoy eternity in His presence.

That's sad, but it's their choice. God would not have any of us to perish, but He lets us keep our free will, just as He allowed Adam and Eve to make their choices.
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Saturday, August, 18, 2007 7:40 PM Flame writes:

A

baptist, a calvinist, wow. and here is a lutheran who attends a baptist seminary with a roman catholic best friend. What a blessing that the Scriptures can bring all together even when in voluminous discussion. :)

PS. I won't hold your doctrines against y'all. ;)
I will however pray for God's peace for all. :)
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Saturday, August, 18, 2007 8:50 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Reply to Valiant:


What is your point with the judgment warnings? This is just a way the writers used to scare people into the churches. Are you motivated by fear and guilt?


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Saturday, August, 18, 2007 8:53 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Watcher's gospel


Your gospel makes more sense than what Valiant is preaching. If Jesus died for sin, then he died for all sin. It is my choice whether to accept it or not. This is what the TV preachers say all the time. God has done all he can do. It’s up to me to decide. So, it’s my choice when I am ready. I am in control.
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Saturday, August, 18, 2007 10:37 PM aurorawatcher writes:

WWM - correct

So long as you recognize that the gift of salvation is completely from God and not something you yourself earn. All you do is accept it. He did the work.
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Saturday, August, 18, 2007 11:11 PM aurorawatcher writes:

And, not my gospel

It's Jesus' gospel. I'm just telling people about it.

I should note that Valiant and I believe the same thing about faith; but our emphasis differs. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that. That sort of accountability is one of the ways that the larger Christian Church provides accountability to its teachers.
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Sunday, August, 19, 2007 1:27 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

The point of judgment…


When considering the justice of God, we must insist that if Christ died to cover all sin, then all sin is covered or else you are left with the uncomfortable position that Christ did not accomplish what was intended, unless you are a universalist.

How is it that Christ would suffer for a man that ultimately ends up in eternal punishment? Will God exact the punishment for his sin a second time, once from Christ and now from the sinner?

When the love of Christ covers the repentant heart, fear and guilt are removed and vanish into the empty grave. Grace is what motivates us from a heart freed from its enslavement to sin.

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Sunday, August, 19, 2007 1:45 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

On unity & peace...


Flame, look around at church and see the diversity of people that come together to worship. People from many different backgrounds, from every economic and social standing have this one thing in common. They love Jesus Christ and rejoice in His grace.

Isaiah 35 gives us a picture in OT language of the blessings of His kingdom that we enjoy now in the church.
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Sunday, August, 19, 2007 10:50 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Makes no sense


How can you be a Christian and not believe that Christ died for every man and woman? The Bible is very clear on this. What you say makes no sense. Why do you want to take away from Christ’s glory?
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Monday, August, 20, 2007 10:42 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

Question for WWman...



Are you a universalist? That is, do you believe that all men without distinction will ultimately be saved from eternal punishment?
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Monday, August, 20, 2007 11:50 AM Flame writes:

WWM

Have you heard the old saying: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink? Same with salvation: Jesus offers the gift of God's Grace but will not force you to accept.

Remember that salvation is offered because of Jesus' faithfulness and obedience to God not because we deserve it. We, in and of ourselves, cannot earn salvation. Hence the offer of God Grace to all men and women. Grace is having the deserved punishment removed, while Mercy is having an undeserved punishment removed. That is why it is Grace through Faith in Christ that we have the hope of salvation and not through any good work/works righteousness.
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Monday, August, 20, 2007 12:48 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Salvation is offered to all

But not all will accept it because God has made us with free will. Else, how could Adam and Eve have sinned? God gave them the opportunity not to, but He also allowed them the opportunity to choose to disobey Him. "Here's ONE rule. Follow it or face consequences!" They could have chosen to follow it and we would not be having this discussion. But they choose to eat the fruit and the rest, unfortunately, is history.

Christ died for us -- all of us -- but God allows us to choose to leave Christ's sacrifice where it lies. I understand why believers like Valiant believe as they do -- they can't understand why God would waste Himself like that. I think it's because He really is THAT generous. Yes, He knew from the point of creation that my mother would not accept Him as Savior, but I think a part of me would have to hate God in order to accept that God made her in a way that she would NEVER be able to accept salvation. That's not Jesus as I have come to know Him. He loves the world so much that He's not willing for any to perish, but He gives people like my mother the dignity of their choices. She didn't want to be a Christian in her lifetime, so she chose eternity outside of God's presence, which is Hell. Her choice, not His!
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Monday, August, 20, 2007 2:32 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

eternal punishment?


I don’t believe in eternal punishment. I take the promises of the atonement to apply to every man, woman and child who has ever lived or is yet to live. Some of us are saved by doing the good works that God has shown in Christ’s example. Some are saved by believing on Christ as he said. And the others are saved by grace as the bible says. So, yes you could label me as a universalist, because my God is full of mercy and love. He accepts our efforts to please him including the moral teachings of other religions and he covers the rest so that none are lost.

Who are you to judge other opinions of the bible and other religions? Our beliefs are just as valid as yours. The bible says different things to different people.

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Monday, August, 20, 2007 3:03 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Aurora and free will



I can agree that according to Genesis, Adam and Eve had a free will to choose good or evil. Does that mean that we have the same free will that Adam had? Are we really free to choose as Adam before the Fall? What does the bible mean by the term ‘dead in sin’? Is that term ever used for Adam?

I agree 100% about your mother. Valiant’s doctrine makes his god out to be a monster.


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Monday, August, 20, 2007 3:57 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

To WWMan on universalism...


From the perspective of the justice of God, you are at least consistent in your view of the atonement. If Christ died for all men, then all men will be saved. You accuse me of taking away from the glory of Christ by limiting the atonement. That is unfortunate wording. Suppose we make this statement. We exalt the glory of Christ in that He has promised to save all that the Father has given Him and lose none, but raise them up on the last day. [John 6:35-40] Remember the Covenant of Redemption.

We must reject universalism, because of the teaching of the new birth that is required for entrance into the kingdom also leads to newness of in the spirit. The old man of sin is buried with Christ, and the new man is raised up with Him. The Christian is a new creation; a new person; he can no longer be at peace with sin and live in it. It is apparent that all men do not leave this world in that condition.

We admit that the most popular view in the churches today is the view that Aurora holds. First, that has not always been the case. The Reformers before and after the Reformation and Puritans and most of those in the Great Awakening held to the Doctrines of Grace. The opposing view is termed Arminianism and was made popular by the Wesleyan Methodists. Augustine fought the same battle in his day with the Pelagians.
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Monday, August, 20, 2007 5:00 PM AlpenaSD writes:

Did Jesus Die For Everyone?

No, Jesus didn't die for everyone! He specifically tells you that in John 10:15, "...I lay down my life for the sheep."

Are all men sheep, then? No.

Matthew 25:32,33
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

Jesus didn't die for the goats.

I wrote this last night but it wouldn't take it because it was too long, so I'll try to submit it in installments.

Gary Gordon
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Monday, August, 20, 2007 5:03 PM AlpenaSD writes:

Free Will & Aurorawatcher

I'm telling you this, aurorawatcher, because I think you're teachable; but you need to let go of free will.

God gave you a free will to show you the EVIL of free will. From it we have learned that nothing outside of God is everlasting, nor safe, neither does it please Him; and your free will certainly is outside of God.

Why do you think that John tells us "if we ask anything according to HIS will, he heareth us?" 1John 5:14

It's because MY will is evil and so "If I regard iniquity (free will-GG) in my heart, the Lord will not hear me." Psalm 66:18

How, then, is God going to give you salvation procured by your own evil free will, if He will not hear you? He's not. The Bible tells you that your free will has nothing to do with your salvation. IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT.

Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." And God shows mercy to Whomsoever He will, based solely on His own good pleasure and nothing else.

Jesus tells Nicodemus that salvation is like the wind; no one has control over it anymore than they can control the wind. John 3:8.

Gary Gordon
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Monday, August, 20, 2007 5:13 PM AlpenaSD writes:

Augustine and the Sovereignty of God

Until you understand or embrace sovereign predestination and the sovereignty of God, aurorawatcher, you'll never truly understand the mind of God, that is to say, His Word.

If God wanted all men to be saved or if Jesus died for all men, then all men would be saved: a point Valiant has already made. If Jesus paid for their sins and then they have to pay also, God is making a buck. God Forbid.

Augustine put it this way, "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." Psalm 115:3.

Now, says Augustine, if God desires all men to be saved, and yet He doesn't bring that to pass, then the Psalmist is a liar. God hasn't "done whatsoever he hath pleased."

You say that Jesus has done it all, but unless you accept Him of your own free will, you cannot be saved. That's something you can boast about, is it not; because where did you get the insight to make the right choice while others couldn't see it?

I tell you this in love, aurorawatcher, and I hope to redeem your soul, because it's a very serious error you are making; an error that most of the world now embraces. But even if an angel from heaven came down and told me what you say is true; not only would I not believe him, but I would curse him as a devil and deceiver as the Apostle Paul commands me to do in Galatians 1:8. It's another Gospel and a soul destroying one at that. It's no different from saying "Jesus has done it all, but unless you are circumsised you cannot be saved."

I, too, am a hiker like you, in the Eastern Sierra's, especially around Yosemite NP. My son and I have found some remote lakes with native cutthroat trout but the hikes are brutal, all over 11,000ft. Pretty country, though, and great for fly fishing.

Take Care in The Lord
Gary Gordon

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Monday, August, 20, 2007 7:45 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Grace…



Mr. Gordon, thank you for your inputs. They are much appreciated, and nothing I am saying diminishes the truth of it. Aurora is a dear sister in the Lord, a constant encourager and a faithful witness to the truth of the gospel.

Thank the Lord that He does not beat us over the head with the truth. He gently leads us as we are able to bear it. I fear you may have hurt while intending to help in dealing so forcefully with such a true heart as Aurora.

These things are important, yes. But they are not essential for salvation, nor are they a point of fellowship with me and I suspect with you also.

I was a dispensational arminian in the church that birthed me into the kingdom. The Doctrines of Grace were unknown to me for some years. All I knew was that I had come to the end of myself and Jesus was there saying come to Me; repent and believe the gospel and I will give you life.

It was a process to come to these doctrines attended by many patient brothers. The thing that interested me about the grace people and their church was not only their love for Christ and reverence of His word, but they had a sincere humility toward other believers while passionately defending the faith and speaking truth in love.

Aurora is confident in her faith. I hope that she will consider your words as from one who is passionate for truth, just as she is.
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Monday, August, 20, 2007 10:28 PM AlpenaSD writes:

Greetings ValiantForTruth

I do consider these things essential for salvation.

The Christ of arminianism is a very dangerous Christ. One who looks very much like the real Christ and who, with the help of aurorawatcher, is leading people astray in droves. But he is not the Christ of the Bible nor the one that I worship.

I know the passion aurorawatcher has for Bible and for that reason alone I addressed her. I didn't try to beat her over the head with the truth, but sometimes it helps.

Better she have hurt feelings now, for awhile, if it brings her to a saving knowledge of the true Christ. Remember, she's going to meet the Truth again.

Gary Gordon



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Monday, August, 20, 2007 11:34 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Gary…


Greetings to you...

Can you demonstrate from the Scriptures that belief in the Doctrines of Grace are essential for salvation? This is something I have missed in the apostolic preaching.

I agree that arminianism can be dangerous when men make a work of their decision to accept Christ. The language of today’s gospel may lead to this false belief. But the Spirit is able to use whatever truth there is in the message as the seed of faith.

You must hold that the regenerate are in different stages of sanctification. We are commanded to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, because it is God who is at work in us, both to will and to work according to His good pleasure. [Philippians 2:12-13] How can you say that an understanding of these doctrines is essential to begin the work?

If you believe these things from the heart, then they have been revealed to you. Who has made you to differ and what do you have that you did not receive? [I Corinthians 4:7] Will this knowledge not lead to a sense of humility, especially in dealing with others who profess the Name? [Colossians 3:12-13]

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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 10:29 AM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

humble calvinist an oxymoron



I have never met a humble calvinist. They are all puffed up with pride thinking they are more spiritual because they know more bible than everybody else. Why do you insist on making grace an issue when you admit it is not a point of fellowship, whatever that means?

You have caused the offense of your only friend at TH. How is that showing humility to fellow believers?
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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 12:58 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Point of fellowship & humility...


By point of fellowship we mean those things essential for Christian unity and fellowship.

We are like Adam in that we are born in his likeness. We are not like him in his original state. The doctrine of the Fall is that Adam sinned of his own free will. Once sin entered his will was no longer free, but in bondage to follow his sinful nature…

They made coverings of leaves to hide their shame. Even in the garden God preached the gospel to them by providing an adequate covering; the shedding of innocent blood was necessary to cover their sin.

The consistent message throughout the Bible beginning with Abraham is that righteousness comes from believing the promise of God, that He will provide the blood sacrifice to cover our sin. The OT is the record of God working in history to bring about what was promised. At the right time Christ was brought forth in the flesh to bear witness of the truth that Messiah was the Lamb and the Mediator of a New Covenant whereby all nations would partake of the promises given to Him.

The only point of fellowship between believers that I can see in the Scriptures is that salvation is of the Lord. It is freely given to all who believe the gospel. Paul gives us the gospel in its simplest form in I Corinthians 15:1-4.

The point of humility is that if we believe we were dead in sin then God has brought us to life through regeneration by the Spirit. If we know any truth, it is from the Spirit by opening our heart to understand what is written. What is there to boast about?

The election of grace teaches us that we have nothing to commend ourselves to God, rather we were weak, ignorant wretches when He came to us. There is nothing to boast about other than the grace of God revealed in Christ Jesus.

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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 1:55 PM Flame writes:

Free Will

This is an interesting subject area and one which inflames the passions which can be good or bad. Either one can boast that I CHOSE Jesus or you can humbly submit your free will to God through Jesus in the knowledge that we are not deserving of what is offered. There is a difference for one is a work while another is faith. From which comes salvation?
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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 2:14 PM Flame writes:

Fellowship

Don't forget Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are assembled in my name, I am there among them.”
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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 2:42 PM aurorawatcher writes:

A reply to Alpena

You obviously hold to your stance very closely, to the point where it seems you would put me out of the kingdom over a point of doctrine. Okay. It's a rude way to start a relationship with someone who claims the title of Christian, but I'll be circumspect. Since you weren't there on March 27, 1977, I won't hold it against you. I was, however, and have no doubt of my salvation experience. God reached out to me with Jesus, but I distinctly was given a choice to respond or reject, to choose the life Jesus offered or to remain in death. That's free will. I chose to respond in faith that Jesus would give me life. I can't imagine now that I would have made the other choice, but I do believe firmly that I had the opportunity to make that choice.

If there was and is no choice, then God is indeed a monster, because He's created 98 percent of the people on the planet to reject Him and go to eternal Hell without any choice at all.

It's not the God I find in the Bible.

"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Him as an offering of atonement (from Hebrews, Jesus’ death is the means that turns God’s wrath from the sinner)through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed." Romans 3:23-25
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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 2:48 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Romans 5

"For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die.
8 But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us!
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, then how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!" Romans 5:6-10

"So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justificationfor everyone." Romans 5:18.


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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 2:58 PM aurorawatcher writes:

WWM

You are indeed a universalist. I understand the temptation. I would love to be in heaven with everybody I love, but that's not how it works. A Jewish teacher by the name of Nicodemus came to Jesus by night to ask Him questions.

"Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher, for no one could perform these signs You do unless God were with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again." John 3:2-7

Jesus was clear here and in many other locations that He came to save humankind, but only if they come to Him in a humble manner. It's not that He wants anyone to go to Hell, but He wants those who choose Heaven to understand their choice. We're going to spend eternity in the presence of God. That might get a little bit uncomfortable for those who think they are their own god, because God the Father insists He's THE God.

The process of being born again is truly like a new birth. In order to come to Jesus, you must lay aside all your falseness and pride and stand before Him spiritually naked and say "I can't do this on my own. Nothing good lives in me. You only have the words of life." It's a humbling experience. Not everybody is going to be willing to go through it; thus, not everybody will be saved. Sad, but their choice.
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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 3:19 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Open discussion on free will...


Flame thanks for comments. I was hoping for some good discourse on free will, because it is a subject that has been the center of controversy throughout church history. Not that we will change any opinions, but let’s at least understand the controversy. Let each man be convinced in his own heart of the teaching.
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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 3:22 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Romans 5 quote?


Aurora, what translation was that you used for the Romans 5 quote?
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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 5:36 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

free will


Nobody wants to discuss free will with you. Men like their free will. They like to think that they are completely free to believe what they will.

They hate the doctrine that their wills are captive to act according to their nature, and that this is the only sense in which they are free.

Even Christians like to think that they have the same free will that Adam had before he fell into sin. That leaves them free to make the decision to accept Jesus and complete the everlasting plan of salvation God has provided for them. They think this resolves the problem about election in the bible being before time.

How do they participate in their own spiritual birth while dead in sin?
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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 6:49 PM Flame writes:

WWM

Why are you here in a discussion forum? There are plenty of people that would enjoy a discussion on free will as well as many other topics. Yet, you insist that nobody would discuss the issues. If discussion is not wanted by anybody then why are you here?
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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 7:17 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Let's discuss


Flame, you can start by answering the question I posed.
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Tuesday, August, 21, 2007 9:27 PM Flame writes:

OK

We have free will to make choices. Now if I choose to live in the U.S. then I have chosen to live by the rules of that society (kingdom). When I choose to accept God's grace offered through Jesus the Messiah then I am submitting myself to the rules of his kingdom. Philippians 3:20 "But our citizenship is in heaven ..."

The major point though is that I now have a guide known as the Holy Spirit, who has been sent to those who believe, instead of my own sinful mind.
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 8:11 AM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Question


The question was how to resolve the contradictory ideas of free will and new birth with the bondage of the will in sin.

Luther debated Erasmus over this issue in his classic work 'Bondage of the Will'. A Lutheran theology student would know Luther's argument, right?
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 11:52 AM Flame writes:

WWM

First while I am a theology student, I am not attending a Lutheran seminary because of the encroachment of heresy into the ELCA.

This was a classic argument not only over free will but also between the RCC and it's reliance on Scripture and tradition while the Protestants held to Scripture (Sola Scriptura). It is also an argument that was waged much earlier in the church with Pelagius. Erasmus, as a humanist, was trying to stay within RCC position but that was not enough, he is compelled by his own system to include also human reason and philosophies.
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 12:13 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

No argument today...


Apparently, the argument has settled down. Most Protestants today are comfortable with Erasmus. Luther's view is dismissed out of hand.

Flame, where do you stand on the issue?
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 1:02 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Romans 5 translation

Holman Christian Standard Bible.

A friend (an SB seminary professor) had a modest role on the translation team and believes this translation is among the most comprehensive of the modern translations; that its scholarship far exceeds that of some more familiar versions.

It's available on line through the SBS website. And it's free.
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 1:14 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Romans indicates free will

You can refer to my previously posted Bible verses.

All people are sinners, Christ died for all of them (Romans 5 is especially strong on this). Later in Romans, however, it states that not everybody will be saved. Some people are simply going to refuse to come to the light.

From this, Christians who believe as I do feel that we must still have some spark of free will. If Christ is not willing for any to perish, but so many do, clearly God didn't create people for the sole purpose of having them spend eternity in Hell. That makes no sense.

Yes, our souls are dead. They're born that way. Jesus died for everyone. So how do dead men respond to Christ. Grace. God has provided grace to all of us who are willing to accept it. That grace will touch the lives of each individual at some point in their life. It doesn't bring their soul to life, but it does tug at it. It's that opportunity, sometimes only given once, to accept God by faith or not. I think this is at work even in unevangelized places (not many of those left). More on that in the next post.
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 1:23 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Alaskan Inupiaq Eskimoes

Up in the Kotzebue area (the nostril of Alaska's old man on the map) there is a legend of a prophet named Mani'ilaq. He lived before the coming of the white man and his stories became part of the oral tradition of Eskimo culture. And, Mani'ilaq spoke of the Grandfather -- a very unEskimo-like God who would send messengers in the sky to tell them how to live. When preachers finally started coming into the Kotzebue and Kobuk regions in airplanes, the Natives became Christians extremely quickly. People wondered why. The Eskimos said it was because Mani'ilaq had told them missionaries were coming and they'd been waiting eagarly for news of the Grandfather.

Betty J. Eadie says: "This book reminds us of the loving presence of the Creator.... Part of the beauty of creation is its diversity. How natural it is then that to our world's many rich and varied cultures, God would send unique messengers who could teach and inspire truth in ways those people are prepared to receive it. Maniilaq is one such messenger, and the Inupiaq people are one such people. As I read Maniilaq, Prophet From The Edge Of Nowhere I was touched with a deep sense of admiration for this man who remained true to the prompting of the Grandfather, and shared openly but firmly the knowledge with which he had been gifted. It is a tribute to his irrepressible spirit and the goodness of God that his memory lives vibrantly today. His is a story and example that will profit others to read and study. Let the life of this great man cause you to reflect, and then cause you to act."

Mani'ilaq never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, but when you study about him, you can't help but feel the call of grace in his life and recognize his very viseral and faithful response.
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 1:41 PM aurorawatcher writes:

I would not be surprised

To find that Mani'ilaq was one of God's faith in much the same way as the roll call of faith worthies were. They didn't know Jesus in the way that we do, but they had faith in God and that was counted as righteousness for salvation.

Mani'ilaq didn't know Yahweh, but he knew the Grandfather. His prophesies prepared an entire people group for the gospel of Jesus Christ 100 years before the missionaries arrived. I think God's grace was at work there. I see that grace in other instances. We must be careful not to read stuff into the Bible, but it does say:

"So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the (code of conduct required by) the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences testify in support of this, and their competing thoughts either accuse or excuse them on the day when God judges what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.(Ac 17:31) Romans 2:14-16
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 4:00 PM Flame writes:

Valiant

For our citizenship is in heaven (Phil 3:20)

By this I see that wherever we live, we are citizens of that particular culture. God has offered his grace to us because of the faithfulness and obedience of Jesus the Messiah. We are free to accept or reject this offer, IOW we have free will. However if we accept the offer then we are freely accepting submission of our free will to be bound unto God through the guidance of the Holy Spirit (born of water and spirit). I also see much that discusses what happens should we "revoke" this acceptance.

I use the modern day example: if I am an American citizen living in another country. I am required to adhere to the laws of that other country unless they conflict with the laws of the USA. So if bribery is acceptable where I live, I still cannot use bribery because it's against US law. Same applies to Christians, we are living in the world and must abide by it's laws (I believe that Paul said a few words about this) yet I have to live by the laws whereby I derive my citizenship which is heaven (aka God's kingdom).
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 5:42 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Aurora on free will…


Thanks for clearly stating your position and for making the effort to understand my position. Thank you for sharing the story of Mani`ilaq. I think the passage you quoted from Romans 2 is appropriate.

We both favor revealed truth over opinion or feeling. I want to give you a thoughtful
response, not argumentative. There are a couple of things that WWM might question. Perhaps I can respond before he shows up again.
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 6:01 PM AlpenaSD writes:

Salvation By Grace Alone

I don't always have a lot of time, but somewhere down the line, here, I will address Romans 5, especially verse 18.

But first, to answer ValiantForTruth, I thought I made it clear when I quoted Galatians 1:8 that the doctrines of Grace are essential for one to be saved. Paul, speaking of Salvation by Grace Alone, says that if any one preaches anything else, "let him be accursed." Pretty strong words.

The communion of the Saints, the unity of the Saints, is founded upon the Truth only. That's her only bond, The Truth. But today's Churches seek unity at the expense of the Truth. Look at the Promise Keepers. That's what you're seeking to do, also.

I agree, we are all in different stages of sanctification, but that is no excuse for one to walk in sin or to believe a lie. If it is, then Peter, when he was rebuked of Paul, should have answered, "I am not as far along in my walk with God as you are, so you have no right to rebuke me." You're telling me that would have been a legitimate excuse in the eyes of God? That's what you're doing with aurorawatcher.

Just because one believes or preaches a lie, doesn't make one a heretic. But when that person is confronted with the truth, and he still holds onto the lie, then he becomes a heretic.

Aurorawatcher does not believe in Salvation by Grace Alone, but her faith is in something she did, and that is accepting Jesus of her own free will. She believes in a Jesus who loves all men and died for all men, but they cannot be saved unless they first accept Him.

She has told you, flat out, that the God of the Bible; the sovereign God Who elects and reprobates men at His own good pleasure, is a monster. Indeed He is, a "certain fearful" to all who will not believe what He declares Himself to be.

Gary Gordon








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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 6:08 PM AlpenaSD writes:

In Conclusion

You can be patient with her but there has to come a time when enough is enough and she should be delivered "unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." What fellowship does light have with darkness?

But today's Churches say "No. Better they remain in the Church than to be put our there, no matter what they believe." They are wiser than God. Are you wiser than God, ValiantForTruth?

I'll end with this. Read the letters to the seven Churches in Revelation. In the letter to the third Church, Pergamos is rebuked for having people there who hold to false doctrines. It doesn't say they are teaching false doctrine, they just hold to them.

In the letter to the fourth Church, Thyatira is now TEACHING false doctrine and in the letter to the fifth Church, we see that the Sardis have all apostatized away except for a few. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Should we be surprised, then, that those who hold to false doctrines should be corrected, and if they will not repent they should be put out of the Church until they do? For the good of all, God commands us to.

Gary Gordon


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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 6:28 PM Flame writes:

Gary

Just curious why you disregard all the passages about accepting God's offer of Grace through his son Jesus the Messiah? Are you of the position that you didn't come to repentance and faith in Jesus? How do you come to repentance if not through free will recognizing your sinful nature?
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 6:37 PM Flame writes:

Salvation

Salvation describes God's activity in restoring us to a right relationship with himself. God forgives us and gives us the promise of eternal life. Through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God provides salvation which makes it possible for us to be saved from the consequences and power of sin. Out of his gracious love this salvation is offered through the Word and Sacraments and received by faith. Faith is believing and trusting Christ as Savior and Lord. We believe and teach that we are saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus. We believe and teach that God desires for all people to be saved, rejecting the idea that some people are predestined to be saved and others are predestined to be lost.
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 7:23 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Reply to Aurora on free will 1...


You ‘feel that we must still have some spark of free will’ because you clearly see the tension in Romans between those in Adam and those in Christ. All men that are in Adam are not in Christ. Let’s skip Romans 5 for now because that is a commentary in itself.

Then you make this statement: ‘If Christ is not willing for any to perish, but so many do, clearly God didn't create people for the sole purpose of having them spend eternity in Hell. That makes no sense.’

First let’s stick with the rules and quote in context. Your partial quote from Peter leaves out an important qualifier that changes the whole meaning of the text…

‘The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.’ [2 Peter 3:9]

I ask you who is ‘us’ in this passage? Consider this as a promise for our comfort that we need not worry over our loved ones and our children’s children. None of the ‘called out ones’ will be lost. The end will not come until they are all gathered into the kingdom. [I know we differ on the doctrine of election, but here is an instant where it is intended for our consolation.]


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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 7:31 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Reply to Aurora on free will 2...



As far as God creating people for condemnation: Consider John 3:16-21…

‘He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.’

We are born condemned as sons and daughters of Adams. In Christ by faith we are the beloved.

As far as making no sense: Consider Romans 9:20…

But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

In context is Paul not contrasting vessels of mercy with vessels of wrath? I know these are hard sayings, but shall be pear off the rough edges to make the doctrine more palatable?

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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 8:34 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Reply to Mr. Gordon…



We are not apostles, nor are we the church. As Christians we are all ministers of the gospel. You are welcome to post here; however, your condemnations of Aurora are not welcome. This is my blog, and I strongly disagree with your applications of the Scripture in this case. I trust that you will honor my request to stop. We can discuss without causing offense to one another. No one is exchanging truth for unity.

I suggest you read the thread on Aurora’a blog dealing with one called ‘badcandie’. Galatians 1 no way applies here. You are too harsh with our Arminian brothers. Many like Aurora do not see their decision as a work.

I profess no wisdom except that which comes from the revealed wisdom of God; that’s why I referenced Colossians 3:12 and following. Has the Lord not taught us to be patient and longsuffering towards one another and clothed with humility?

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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 9:57 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Flame questions


Do you know that your position on free will and election are fundamentally different than that of the founder of your church?

Could there possibly be a correlation between doctrinal apostasy and the liberalism that has infected the Lutheran church?
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 10:18 PM AlpenaSD writes:

Romans 5

In the Bible, words like “all” or “any” do not always mean every single person, head for head, but may mean other things, like “all believers” or “all of one group.”

1Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Obviously, the second “all” does not mean all men, head for head, because these all shall be made alive in the glorious resurrection of Christ. Rather the second all refers to “all believers” or “all of the elect” only.

But aurorawatcher takes words like “all” or “any” and indiscriminately applies them to everyone, head for head, when it suits her purpose, regardless of the context of the text.

She quotes 2Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

If God is not willing that ANY should perish, meaning all men head for head, then it can only mean that Christ is never coming back, unless she believes that someday all men will be saved.

No! Peter says God is longsuffering to whom? To US-WARD, meaning His elect; His chosen people. And since God always does all His good pleasure, it means all of His elect will certainly be saved, and then the world will end, and not one minuet before.

Gary Gordon
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 10:24 PM AlpenaSD writes:

Romans 5 continued

She quotes Romans 5:6 “For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

Once again, who does God commend his love toward? In verse 8 it’s toward US, His elect. Christ died for His elect while we were yet ungodly, not every ungodly person, head for head.

WorldlyWiseMan asks a pivotal question, “How do they participate in their own spiritual birth while dead in sin?” The key question to which aurorawatcher responds, “Grace.” And it’s a “grace” that “doesn't bring their soul to life, but it does tug at it.” There’s not a “grace” like that to be found in all of Scripture. Show me! That kind of grace comes from outside of the Bible and is found in free-willism.

Grace is a power. The only grace to be found in the Bible is a “saving-grace.”

Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Gary Gordon
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 10:28 PM AlpenaSD writes:

Romans 5 conclusion

Which brings us to Romans 5:18, “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” This is the King James Version

First of all, what is the “free gift” of Romans 5:18? According to Ephesians 2:8, the “free gift” is grace. Notice it doesn’t say the free gift (grace) was OFFERED to all men so that they could choose for themselves. No, the free gift (grace) CAME upon all men unto justification of life, meaning, once again “all of God’s elect people.” When the free gift comes upon you, you are saved. That comports well with Ephesians 2:8.

Faith is breathed into you, aurorawatcher, by the Spirit of God, thus quickening you. It’s not something you can choose for yourself.

Gary Gordon
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 10:29 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

evangelism


If this Gary guy is an example of the way reformed people evangelize, then no wonder that calvinism has lost its influence in the church and in the culture.

Looks like Gary and Valiant read the same commentary on 2Peter3.
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Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 11:11 PM AlpenaSD writes:

Greetings Flame

Maybe you could specify some of the passages your talking about.

I can tell you this, we NEVER come to repentance via our own free will. Our free will is "only evil CONTINUALLY." Genesis 6:5

Or, as Romans 3 puts it
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Rather,"...we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13. Not our free will works God's good pleasure.

Now I have a question for you. When Jesus cried with a loud voice "Lazarus, come forth." John 11:43. Could Lazarus hear His voice?

Gary Gordon









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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 1:20 AM aurorawatcher writes:

These are difficult issues

Alpena, while you might be willing to call me a heretic for believing in human free will and responsibility in unclear Scripture passages, I am not willing to do the same with you. I sense your passion for the doctrinal stance of unconditional election. While we should hold Biblical beliefs passionately, I don't think holding a belief passionately makes it Biblical.

The Bible isn't as clear about election as I would like. I do not choose to fight with you, Alpena, over it, but with Valiant's permission, I would not mind addressing the points that I and all (for want to a better term) Arminian-minded Christians stumble over.

Because of that darn word limit thing, I'm going to break it up. It'll probably be easier to discuss that way, anyway.
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 1:25 AM aurorawatcher writes:

Pt 1 - Total Depravity

No real problem there. We're all sinners, nothing good lives in any of us apart from Jesus' salvation work.

I agree that every aspect of man's being is infected with the disease of sin so that we cannot save ourselves, neither can we move toward God without the initiating and enabling grace of God. Because God is still active in our world, humans are not as bad as we could possibly be, but we is radically depraved. I attend a Southern Baptist church and most Baptists would agree on this point, at least in some measure. It is hard to deny it in light of Romans 3:9-20 and Ephesians 2:1-3.
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 1:37 AM aurorawatcher writes:

Unconditional Election

Valiant can correct me if I'm wrong on this.

My understanding is that, according to this view, God, in grace and mercy, has chosen certain persons for salvation. The Calvinist view is that His decision is not based on human merit or foreseen faith, but solely in the goodness and providence of God's own will and purposes. I know some Calvinists who believe that the electing purpose of God is somehow accomplished without destroying human freewill and responsibility. In that I can agree, based upon my own salvation experience. I honestly believe that no one is saved apart from God's plan, and yet anyone who repents and trusts Christ will be saved. A theologian in the 15th Century referred to this as God's secret or hidden decree. There admittedly is tension in this position, but I don't think that tension need be considered contradictory. It's one of those apparent paradoxes stemming from the complexity of God compared to the simplicity of us, His creation. John 6:37-47 seems to be a favorite quote of Calvinists at this point.

Some Christians hotly debate this, offering alternative interpretations of scriptural passages. Both sides genuinely believe they are operating from a biblical basis. I think we're likely to debate this point until the Lord returns. I see no need for division or ill will over it.
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 1:45 AM aurorawatcher writes:

Limited atonement

Now this is the real sticking point between Arminian-minded Christians and Calvinist-minded Christians. There are, of course, modified versions of both of these. I'm on the Arminian side, but I'm modified.

I'm told most Calvinists preferr the term "particular redemption" over limited atonement. The original stance of Calvin's followers was that the intent of the atoning work of Christ was to provide and purchase salvation for the ELECT. The work of Christ would be limited to the elect, and His atonement was made for a particular people (e.g. His sheep, the Church, His Bride).

This is a real point of contention and a lot of Modified Calvinists cannot embrace this teaching in its classic form.

I would offer a crucial observation in hope of fostering some unity on this. All Bible-believers limit the atonement in some way. To not do so is to advocate Universalism, the view that eventually everyone will be saved. I agree the Bible teaches atonement is limited in its application, but I don't agree that it is limited in its provision. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world (John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:4-6; 4:10; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 2:1-2; 4:9-10) making a universal provision. The application, however, is limited to those who receive the free gift of salvation offered to them by their personal faith in Christ. I think it safe to say that all evangelicals limit atonement in some sense, but we do it in different ways.
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 1:53 AM aurorawatcher writes:

Pt 4 - Irresistable Grace

In case you can't tell, a friend of mine who is a SBC seminary professor helped me with these answers (just to be honest). I believe them, but Alan emailed the material to me this evening and I'm borrowing from his response.

I'm not that a lot of Calvinists would see this as another unfortunate choice of words that stirs up unnecessary debate. They prefer the phrase "effectual calling" which asserts that those who are predestined to be saved are called to salvation (Romans 8:30) effectually. They are not forced to come but are set free to come and they do so willingly.

I can accept this idea in a modified form and I like the following statement in the way that it explains it.

Timothy George strikes the balance of this teaching with human responsibility when he writes, "God created human beings with free moral agency, and He does not violate this even in the supernatural work of regeneration. Christ does not rudely bludgeon His way into the human heart. He does not abrogate our creaturely freedom. No, he beckons and woos, He pleads and pursues, He waits and wins" (Amazing Grace, p. 74).

I think, Alpena, that you would disagree with this. A preacher friend of mine who is also a commercial fisherman puts it nicely -- "God casts a net around our hearts, but we're free to swim out of it if we're really that stupid."
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 1:59 AM aurorawatcher writes:

Pt 5 - Perseverence of the Saints

As I've indicated, I'm more Arminian than Calvinist, but on this point, you get no argument.

Those God saves, He protects and preserves in their salvation. Baptists call this "eternal security." Popular terminology is "once saved, always saved." I don't konw any Baptists who disagree with this. Misunderstood and falsely mocked by those rejecting this doctrine, perseverance of the saints does not teach people can live any way they want and take advantage of God's grace. Rather, because of the greatness of the gift of our salvation, true believers will be grieved when they sin and will repent to return to pursue a life that is pleasing to the God, because we love Him. He in turn keeps us safely and securely in His hand (John 10:27-29).
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 2:08 AM aurorawatcher writes:

Some suggestions on this topic

We're talking about big issues here, daunting issues for finite, sinful humans. A good dose of humility might be in order. We're attempting to understand the Bible's teaching and debate in Christian love. Alan offered some suggestions that I agree with

The doctrine of salvation should start with God and not us. The Bible affirms salvation is from the Lord (Jonah 2:9) and by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift — not from works, so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). We should be God-centered in all of our theology, especially the doctrine of salvation. The Bible teaches salvation is God's work. He is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). He takes the initiative.

We should affirm the truth both of God's sovereignty and human freewill. "The Abstract of Principles" was the founding confession for The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. It was penned by Basil Manly Jr. in 1859. Manly was a Calvinist, and yet Article IV on Providence reveals a healthy, theological balance in our Baptist forefather. Manly wrote:

"God from eternity decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be author or approver of sin nor to destroy the freewill and responsibility of intelligent creatures".

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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 2:14 AM aurorawatcher writes:

Comment on Manly's comment

(Growling at word limit)

Many Baptists believe the Bible teaches that God predestines and elects persons to salvation, but that He does so in such a way as to do no violence to their freewill and responsibility to repent from sin and believe the Gospel. Is there a tension here? Yes. Is there divine mystery? Absolutely! Many believe Paul felt this when, at the end of his magnificent treatment of salvation, faith and grace in Romans 9-11, he concludes with a doxology of praise, "Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and untraceable His ways (Romans 11:33)." We're in good company if we find it a challenge to fathom the depths of this doctrine.

It is indeed deep!
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 2:21 AM aurorawatcher writes:

More suggestions

Often extreme positions on either side of this issue are Biblically unbalanced, theologically unhealthy, and not desirable for friendly discussion. Biblically, I affirm the truth of all of God's Word. Words like called, chosen, election, foreknowledge, and predestination are in Scripture. I think we should embrace them, examine them, and seek to understand them, but always remembering that intelligent and Godly people will likely embrace differing interpretations. Words like believe, evangelist, go, preach, receive, and repent are also in the Bible. Biblical balance requires that we embrace and affirm these as well.

I think that nice, neat doctrinal systems appeal to our sense of order, but do not necessarily engender a whole and comprehensive theology.

We must beware of so setting our theology in stone that we reject anything Biblical that doesn't fit our statement of faith.

God's not done teaching me yet. Is He done teaching you?
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 9:09 AM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Aurora


As an outside observer to this discussion, you have more class than all these calvinists put together. Perhaps they can learn something from you!
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 10:50 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

Church history and doctrine of Fall…



Aurora, thanks for laying out the doctrines and giving us your thinking and objections to our thinking. That was well done and most helpful.

My initial response is that the history of the church has been plagued with heresy derived from an insufficient, unbiblical view of the Fall and its effects on man and his ability to help himself spiritually.

It is no accident that Total Depravity is point number 1 of the 5 points, commonly called the Doctrines of Grace. Perhaps Mr. Gordon, if he is so inclined, would give us his view of the historical context of these 5 points of Calvinism and why they have come to us worded in such language that is offense to many.

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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 3:25 PM Flame writes:

WWM

you wrote: Do you know that your position on free will and election are fundamentally different than that of the founder of your church?

I write: It is not fundamentally different. I stated that God offered a choice. Now if you want to get into semantics, this is why Luther said there is no free choice because it is God in control. Luther does acknowledge a choice but does not like the term "free" because God controls and allows you a choice. In the case of salvation, GOD has determined to allow the choice through an offer instead of a demand. That is part of the interesting "paradox" behind this discussion. Luther stood strong on the Scriptures being clear while Erasmus had five different areas of clarity in Scripture. This upset Luther because without clarity of Scripture then you get wild assertions and heresy results.

you wrote: Could there possibly be a correlation between doctrinal apostasy and the liberalism that has infected the Lutheran church?

I write: Not really, it is more focusing on the worldly ways instead of God's ways. Some US Lutheran orgs (ELCA in particular) have gone far astray from Luther, same as the ECUSA has strayed from the Anglican, and RCC in America has strayed from the Vatican. We see some of this happening in Europe while areas like Africa, which are (supposedly) less cultured haven't strayed from the doctrines postured by their denomination.
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 3:47 PM Flame writes:

Re: Pt 5 - Perseverence of the Saints

you wrote: Those God saves, He protects and preserves in their salvation. Baptists call this "eternal security." Popular terminology is "once saved, always saved." I don't know any Baptists who disagree with this.

I write: Boy have you got that right. I ran into this while discussing Hebrews 6 in one of my classes. After all it is a Baptist seminary. :)
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 5:05 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Flame

Baptists can be strident when it's important to them. They take seriously that "nothing can seperate us" statement of Paul. Nothing would include, of course, me.
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 6:34 PM Flame writes:

aurora

naw not you!

I have had some interesting discussions (my classes are distance learning) with not only classmates but also the instructors. :)

I will probably use Philippians 3:20 (and surrounding context) for my Greek class but am tempted to try Hebrews 6. I know, bad to pull my brothers and sisters chain but it also produces some good discussion and deeper study of the Scriptures.

One of our pastors was in a discussion with a group of pastors when one Baptist looked at him and asked: "You did say you were Lutheran?" He couldn't reconcile the "image" of Lutherans with the reality of our pastor.
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 6:43 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Luther on free will


Dr. Luther was not one for withholding his opinion when it came to matters of the gospel. Here is one quote from Bondage of the Will called the ‘thunderbolt’…

[It] is also essentially necessary and wholesome for Christians to know: that God foreknows nothing by contingency, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His immutable, eternal and infallible will. By this thunderbolt, ‘free will’ is thrown prostrate and utterly dashed to pieces. Those, therefore who would assert ‘free will,’ must either deny this thunderbolt, or pretend not to see it, or push it from them.

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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 6:57 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Hebrew6


Flame, the Hebrews 6 passage does not stand alone. It must be interpreted in light of the sower parable. Do you agree?
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 7:36 PM Flame writes:

Hebrew 6

Not just the lower parable but also in context with 1-5. It is not basic Christology but more "mature" teaching.
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 9:45 PM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

mature?


I'm afraid to ask what you mean by more 'mature' than the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Are you going to answer Gary's question about Lazarus?
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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 11:51 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Some historical perspective…



The “five points of Calvinism,” so-called, are simply the Calvinistic answer to a five-point manifesto (the Remonstrance) put out by certain “Belgic semi-Pelagians” in the early seventeenth century. The theology which it contained (known to history as Arminianism) stemmed from two philosophical principles:

(a) that divine sovereignty is not compatible with human freedom, nor therefore with human responsibility;

(b) that ability limits obligation.

From these principles, the Arminians drew two deductions:

(a) that since the Bible regards faith as a free and responsible human act, it cannot be caused by God, but is exercised independently of Him;

(b) that since the Bible regards faith as obligatory on the part of all who hear the gospel, ability to believe must be universal.

Hence, they maintained, Scripture must be interpreted as teaching the following positions:

(1.) Man is never so completely corrupted by sin that he cannot savingly believe the gospel when it is put before him.

(2.) Man is he ever so completely controlled by God that he cannot reject it.

(3.) God’s election of those who shall be saved is prompted by His foreseeing that they will of their own accord believe.

(4.) Christ’s death did not ensure the salvation of anyone, for it did not secure the gift of faith to anyone (there is no such gift); what it did was rather to create a possibility of salvation for everyone if they believe.

(5.) It rests with believers to keep themselves in a state of grace by keeping up their faith; those who fail here fall away and are lost.

Thus, Arminianism made man’s salvation depend ultimately on man himself, saving faith being viewed throughout as man’s own work and, because his own, not God’s in him.

[credits JI Packer; Introductory Essay Death of Death in the Death of Christ by John Owen]









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Thursday, August, 23, 2007 11:55 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

More perspective...


The Synod of Dort was convened in 1618 to pronounce on this theology, and the “five points of Calvinism” represent its counter-affirmations. They stem from a very different principle—the biblical principle that “salvation is of the Lord”; and they may be summarized thus:

(1.) Fallen man in his natural state lacks all power to believe the gospel, just as he lacks all power to believe the law, despite all external inducements that may be extended to him.

(2.) God’s election is a free, sovereign, unconditional choice of sinners, as sinners, to be redeemed by Christ, given faith and brought to glory.

(3.) The redeeming work of Christ had as its end and goal the salvation of the elect.

(4.) The work of the Holy Spirit in bringing men to faith never fails to achieve its object.

(5.) Believers are kept in faith and grace by the unconquerable power of God till they come to glory.

These five points are conveniently denoted by the mnemonic TULIP:

Total depravity,
Unconditional election,
Limited atonement,
Irresistible grace,
Preservation of the saints.

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Friday, August, 24, 2007 6:10 AM AlpenaSD writes:

A Prayer of Jesus on The Cross

I'll end with this.

Even though Jesus made it clear that he laid down his life for the sheep, aurorawatcher keeps insisting, against inspired Scripture, that he laid down his life for the goats, also.

If you cross reference Matthew 27:34,48 (and the parallel passages in the other gospel accounts) with Psalm 69:21-29, anyone with ears to hear will understand that this prayer is placed upon Jesus' lips as he hung on the cross when "they gave him vinegar to drink" (v.21)

Psalm 69:
21They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

29But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.

Christ prays that the reprobate be "blotted out of the book of the living" (v.28). If Christ didn't pray for them while he was on the cross, then he didn't die for them, either.

Gary Gordon
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 8:38 AM Gonzo writes:

A lot of talk

based on a book that is hearsay at best.

No wonder the founders stood for seperation of church and state. As Madison said, the church never supported the rights or freedom of the people.

And the nitpickers of hearsay want to insist that America was founded on their religious fallacy?! That even makes blind faith look good....
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 9:51 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

Mr. Gonzo...


Do you think that Jesus Christ is 'hearsay?'

Apart from His gospel there would be no America with the freedoms you take for granted.

What you call a 'lot of talk' can be found at the main site. This site is for those who love the Scriptures because they testify of Jesus Christ. Take you ignorant mocking somewhere else, thank you.

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Friday, August, 24, 2007 11:20 AM WorldlyWiseMan writes:

Gonzo has a point


What does this stuff matter? Is it worth debating the extent of the atonement? I know it is foolishness to those who are perishing with this world, but why should Christians care about this doctrine?
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 11:27 AM Flame writes:

WWM

Hebrews 6:1 "Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again:

Perhaps reading the actual passages before commenting on them would be appropriate in a discussion.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 11:32 AM Flame writes:

WWM

Gary's question: Did Lazarus hear Jesus voice?

No, God responded to Jesus' request and brought Lazarus out. We find this in the context of the passages. So we see that God responded through Jesus just as our salvation comes through Jesus.

11:41 So they took away the stone. Jesus looked upward and said, “Father, I thank you that you have listened to me.
11:42 I knew that you always listen to me, but I said this for the sake of the crowd standing around here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
11:43 When he had said this, he shouted in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 12:04 PM Flame writes:

Gonzo makes

no point. He uses the phrase hearsay yet there is more extra-biblical as well as actual manuscripts that attest to the Scriptures than any other writing including the precious Greeks like Plato, Aristotle, etc. The Dead Sea scrolls showed the existence of the TaNaK before the 1st century AD. The are ancient artifacts from other cultures that show the existence of Israel during ancient times. While the architectural data in Scriptures is found to be accurate both OT and NT.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 5:33 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Alpena

I don't think I've spoken against inspired Scripture. I see a balance between the free will of Man as created by God and God's soveignity. I've posted some of the verses that I think support that.

Why bother to evangelize at all if only those people who are made to accept Jesus are going to accept Jesus and they WILL because they were made to do so?

Clearly, this is not what the Bible teaches. "But how can they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How welcome are the feet of those who announce the gospel of good things! (Isaiah 52:7; Nah 1:15)
But all did not obey the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our message? (Isaiah 53:1) So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ." Romans 10:14-17

If we simply have no choice in what we believe because it has been preprogrammed into us, why do we evangelize? Why did Jesus?
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 5:40 PM aurorawatcher writes:

"More mature" than Jesus' teaching

Jesus had three years to do His ministry and, as somebody else on another site pointed out, He had to walk everywhere. Obviously, He didn't have time to teach everybody everything. Moreover, many of the issues His followers would face after Christians became noticed by the Romans were not issues for them during Jesus' lifetime.

Jesus had a very simple message, when you get down to it. He said "Follow me!" Later, Paul, Peter, John, Judas and James would expand upon how Christians are to live while they follow Jesus. Paul said he had fed certain churches (the Corinthians namely) milk because they weren't ready for meat. So, perhaps the word "mature" is not well-understood. The Bible uses it, so we shouldn't be uncomfortable with it, but perhaps what we're really connoting is "more developed." Obviously the book of Romans was a great expansion upon what Jesus taught. You can have salvation by faith from a purely emotional response, but faith that has informed the intellect has much better root development and is a lot harder to shake. You don't find that meat in the Gospels, for the most part. You find it in the Pauline letters, mostly.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 7:39 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Arminianism Part 1

In earlier posts, I made the statement that I am a modified Arminian. My friend Alan, who knows WAY more about these things than I do, suggested I might want to explain that stance. So, here is Arminius’ basic classical beliefs, from the “Five Articles of Remonstrance” formulated by Arminius’ followers in 1610. I will discuss these points to explain where I differ. As I've said before, I don't care for theological systems and points, but since we're on the subject:

Depravity is TOTAL: Arminius stated "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace."[6] Outside of the action of grace, human beings cannot respond to God.

Atonement is intended FOR ALL: Jesus' death was for all people, Jesus draws all people to himself, and all people have opportunity for salvation through faith.[7]

Jesus' death SATISFIES God's justice: The penalty for the sins of the elect are paid in full through Jesus' work on the cross. Thus Christ's atonement is intended for all, but requires faith to be effected. Arminius stated "Justification, when used for the act of a Judge, is either purely the imputation of righteousness through mercy… or that man is justified before God… according to the rigor of justice without any forgiveness."[8] Stephen Ashby clarified "Arminius allowed for only two possible ways in which the sinner might be justified: (1) by our absolute and perfect adherence to the law, or (2) purely by God's imputation of Christ's righteousness."[9]
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 7:40 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Arminianism Part 2

Grace is RESISTIBLE: God takes initiative in the salvation process and His grace comes to all people. This grace (often called prevenient or pre-regenerating grace) acts on all people to convict them of the Gospel, draw them strongly towards salvation, and enable the possibility of sincere faith. Picrilli stated "indeed this grace is so close to regeneration that it inevitably leads to regeneration unless finally resisted." [10] The offer of salvation through grace does not act irresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied.[11]
Man has FREE WILL to respond or resist: Free will is limited by God's sovereignty, but God sovereignly allows all men the choice to accept the Gospel of Jesus through faith, simultaneously allowing all men to resist.
Election is CONDITIONAL: Arminius defined election as "the decree of God by which, of Himself, from eternity, He decreed to justify in Christ, believers, and to accept them unto eternal life."[12] God alone determines who will be saved and His determination is that all who believe Jesus through faith will be justified. According to Arminius, "God regards no one in Christ unless they are engrafted in Him by faith."[12]
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 7:41 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Arminianism Part 3

God PREDESTINES the elect to a glorious future: Predestination is not the predetermination of who will believe, but rather the predetermination of the believer's future inheritance. The elect are therefore predestined to sonship through adoption, glorification, and eternal life.[13]
Eternal security is also CONDITIONAL: All believers have full assurance of salvation with the condition that they remain in Christ. Salvation is conditioned on faith, therefore perseverance is also conditioned.[14] Apostasy (turning from Christ) is only committed through a deliberate, willful rejection of Jesus and renouncement of belief.[15] Arminius, himself, said that "I never taught that a true believer can… fall away from the faith… yet I will not conceal, that there are passages of Scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect; and those answers to them which I have been permitted to see, are not of such as kind as to approve themselves on all points to my understanding."[16]
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 7:44 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Point 1 - Total Depravity

This is not a huge sticking point between Calvinists and Arminians. Both sides feel that nothing good lives inside of humans apart from the grace of God.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 7:46 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Bible verses supporting Pt 1

Romans 3:10-12, 23
“What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
as it is written, ‘THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.’ For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

Clearly, we have no inherent goodness, or righteousness. The ability to choose is there, and the desire and insight to choose rightly is available (see Romans 1:32). What is not is the actual choosing and the conviction unto repentance which requires a work of God’s grace to change a heart and rebirth a spirit.

Jeremiah 17:9
“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?”

We are broken and filled with deception to the deepest end possible.

Ephesians 2:4-6
“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Sinful man is dead and unable to awaken himself out of sin, but when the grace of God awakens his spirit, he is able to respond in faith and repent unto salvation, being thus made alive in Christ.

Isaiah 30:15
“For thus the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, has said, ‘In repentance and rest you will be saved, In quietness and trust is your strength.’ But you were not willing.”

Repentance, an act of the will, is a necessary response to God’s call. Man does play a role in his salvation (Luke 13:5, John 3:16). The issue for which we are held to account is whether or not we are willing to respond in faith and repent.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 7:55 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Point 2 - Atonement is For All

This is a definite sticking point. Either Jesus's death was a limited death only for those God created to respond to Him or it was for everyone.

I reject the Calvinist position not just because it condemns people to Hell before they are even conceived, but because it makes God out as small and petty. I think Jesus' death was more than sufficient for all of us, even truly horrible people. Jesus came for the lost sheep -- not the sheep in the pen, but the ones who are wandering out on the hillsides.

Ultimately, those who refuse to respond to grace are considered goats, but why couldn't a vast eternal God be generous and offer them salvation even if He knows they'll resist it?

I have no problem with an infinite God offering a universal atonement that is available only to those who accept it by His rules.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 7:57 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Bible verses supporting Pt 2

Psalm 139:16
“Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.”

Acts 4:27-28
“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.”

Clearly, the apostles believed in predetermination and God’s sovereignty over all events. Yet they believed in faith, prayer, and change.

Ephesians 1:10b-12
“In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.”

We must choose to hope in Christ if we want to receive an inheritance. What we will discover is that, though we were responsible for our choosing Christ, He had chosen us long ago.

John 1:12-13
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

We must choose to receive Christ, but ultimately we are born of the will of God, not of man.

Philippians 2:12-13
“So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”

Even in our sanctification, we are responsible to work it out, yet ultimately it is God at work in us enabling us to work it out. There is a mysterious balance of God’s divine decree and our willful participation in His plan. A deviation to either extreme will lead us into unbalanced theology and potentially dangerous thinking.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 8:03 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Point 3 - Modified

Jesus' death satisfies God's justice.

Huh?

I prefer, The Atonement Is Unlimited In Terms of Availability But Limited In Terms of Its Effect

John 12:32
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

When Christ died on the cross, His call was to all men to be saved, even those who crucified Him (which ultimately is all of us because of our sin).

Luke 19:10
“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

The call of Christ is to all people, for He came to seek and save all who were lost, not just some.

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”

God wants all people to respond in faith, but He is not going to force them to do so. His mercy is great, even to us as we testify to His grace.

1 John 2:2
“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”

I don’t know what could be clearer than this. Christ’s sacrifice is available to all, but they must still receive it. 1 John 1:9 tells those unsure of their faith to confess their sins and trust Christ Who is faithful and just to forgive their sin and cleanse them from all unrighteousness. All can be saved, but not all will be saved because of man’s own love for his sin.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 8:07 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Point 4- Grace is Resistible

I modify this a bit by noting that God is sovereign. He allows us to make our choice, but even that is a choice that He makes. Those who do not wish to follow God still have a choice, they simply choose badly.

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The obvious truth from this verse is that some reject the call, and are therefore obviously not chosen. In other words, those who are not chosen choose not to be chosen. Again, a seeming paradox, but what do we want from a BIG God.

Mark 3:29
“But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.”

Man is able to resist the draw of God, and it is the only sin that won’t be forgiven him.

Proverbs 21:1
“The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.”

Though we make choices, let us not forget Who is ultimately in control of all things to His glory.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 8:20 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Predestination

This is one of those mysteries that I don't think any of us are smart enough to understand. God knows the past, present and future. There are verses in the Bible that make that very clear. Does that mean He decided in advance what the future would be and what my decision on March 27, 1977, would be? I don't think so. I think He knew because He is eternal, which means He is outside of time and space. He is not constrained by my human limitations of time. Time is a concept for those who live finite lives. God is infinite.

He foreknew my decision. I cannot myself accept that He created me a puppet who would respond as He dictated. If I thought that He had created those I love without the ability to respond to Him, I don't think I could continue to love Him.

Moreoever, I think it is dangerous for people to think they are "special". There is a risk of arrogance in that belief. If I thought I was created better than others, I think I would not really care so much about those outside the Church. Afterall, they're goats and sheep are much better than goats. They're doomed anyway, so why should I waste my efforts?

Clearly, the Bible doesn't teach this.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 8:24 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Why I'm modified?

I cannot accept Arminianism in its fully stated form on several points, but I reject this particular point because the Bible speaks eloquently against it.

James 3:2
“For we all stumble in many ways.”

Even Christians still sin.

1 Timothy 1:18-20
“This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.”

Shipwrecked, yes, but they will be taught not to blaspheme.

2 Timothy 2:13
“If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”

Romans 8:38-39
“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

"Nothing" includes us.

John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”

Those who are saved will never perish, no matter what because true believers are secure in God’s hand. They will persevere in the Biblical sense because of God’s faithfulness, even when they are not faithful. Of course, a life characterized by the world and sin is indeed indicative that a person was never reborn in the first place.
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Friday, August, 24, 2007 8:32 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Concluding thoughts

I arrived at a conclusion about the debate between Calvinists and Arminians. First, the debate will never end because neither side is right. Second, there is an alternative viewpoint which I laid out. Third, we cause division and destruction when we let man-made doctrinal systems dictate our interpretation of the Bible. Both systems are convoluted enough to really distort our ability to understand Scripture, if we adhere to their basic assumptions. Fourth, I believe Calvinism puts too much emphasis on God’s sovereignty while Arminianism puts too much emphasis on the ability and work of man. I've known both kinds of Christians. Some extreme Calvists seem to gloat in their election while extreme Arminians fear that another sin would send them to hell with no chance at redemption. One places too much emphasis on man's work of evangelism, while the other is often reluctant to even persuade the sinner. One might be preoccupied with fate and another with shaping their own destiny. The reality is that either extreme creates dangers for practical Christian living.

Not victims of blind fate, we also can do nothing unless God wills it. I acknowledge God’s sovereignty and the free will of man. I accept the tensions that such a position creates. I think Christians who recognize both God's force of will and their own responsibility to obey can make a huge difference in this world.
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Saturday, August, 25, 2007 12:36 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

Regeneration wrt faith and repentance...



‘Sinful man is dead and unable to awaken himself out of sin, but when the grace of God awakens his spirit, he is able to respond in faith and repent unto salvation, being thus made alive in Christ.’

Aurora this quote is from your recent post ‘Bible verses supporting Pt 1’. I think this statement is getting at the heart of the issue. “Being made alive in Christ’ is a good description of regeneration. I would appeal to Titus 3:5…

‘…not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit…’

This clearly define the difference between us. You place regeneration after faith and repentance; I would place it before. Just as Lazarus was made alive before he could respond to Christ’s command, even so with us.


Regeneration part 2…

‘Repentance, an act of the will, is a necessary response to God’s call. Man does play a role in his salvation (Luke 13:5, John 3:16). The issue for which we are held to account is whether or not we are willing to respond in faith and repent.’

Again, you can make this statement because you place regeneration after faith and repentance. Consider that faith and repentance are the natural responses of a renewed heart.

The other distinction that we need to make is with the use of the word ‘call’ or ‘called’. We agree that there is a general call of the gospel to all men without distinction, but there is an effectual call to the elect.

Remember what Christ said to the apostles regarding the kingdom parables…it has been given to you to understand, but to the others it is not given. As it is written…seeing they will not see and hearing they will not hear. [Matthew 13:10-17]





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Saturday, August, 25, 2007 12:48 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

Reply:Point 2 - Atonement is For All



Aurora, you make statements and tell us what you think, but do not make the case from Scripture. You do not need me to remind you that the Scripture is our rule for faith and practice.

You say that you have no problem with an infinite God offering a universal atonement that is available only to those who accept it by His rules. Our response is that the atonement is presented in the Scripture as effectual. I hope to address the value of the doctrine of perfect versus imperfect atonement according to Scripture.

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Saturday, August, 25, 2007 1:06 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

Supporting verses...


Aurora states: I don’t know what could be clearer than this. Christ’s sacrifice is available to all, but they must still receive it.

We have already established that there are good men on both sides. It is not so clear to the many who disagree. You must know that the verses you quote have been dealt with throughout church history. The unanswered polemic on this subject is John Owens’ Death of Death. Before you use that kind of language you should acquaint yourself with the opposing view. These men have no less love of the Scriptures than you.
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Saturday, August, 25, 2007 1:21 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

Election before time or in time…



Aurora states: The obvious truth from this verse is that some reject the call, and are therefore obviously not chosen. In other words, those who are not chosen choose not to be chosen. Again, a seeming paradox, but what do we want from a BIG God.

We respond that election in the Scripture is presented as occurring before the foundation of the world according to the will and purpose of God. We would appeal here to Romans 8:28-30. Again, salvation is of the Lord. The unbroken chain is already accomplished in the purposes of God. His propose is the spring from which salvation flows. Your doctrine of election makes it dependent on the will of men in time.




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Saturday, August, 25, 2007 2:06 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

Foreknowledge...


Aurora thank you for telling us plainly what you believe…

All I can say here is that these are your perceptions of the doctrine which [in my opinion] help support your views. We have discussed around the main issue to all this and that is our natural spiritual condition. The apostle says we are children of wrath even as the rest. If you agree with Paul and I know that you do, then is God not perfectly just to condemn us all? Starting from this premise, God is full of mercy to save any of us. Shall we grumble at God over His ways? His ways and thoughts are above ours.

So, if we are dead in sin and justly deserve the wrath of God, it is grace alone that brings us to life to respond to His goodness. We are not puppets, rather we are dead in the spirit. When He renews our hearts according to the great promise of the New Covenant, we cannot help but flee to Christ; nothing can keep us from Him; we will have Him over our necessary food. There is no regenerate man who is not a Christian. There are many professing Christians who are not regenerate. Regeneration always leads to conversion, which is man’s response in faith and repentance.

Every Christian is indeed special. The Bible calls them the elect. Christ has purchased us with His own blood. Now the understanding of this doctrine leads not to pride, but always to humility in that my election is unconditional. There is nothing in me that distinguishes me from the rest of mankind except the grace of God.

With regard to evangelism, the doctrine promotes missions and encourages the sharing of the gospel. Not out of the pride that I can argue or convince you of my doctrine, but out of confidence that the Spirit will apply the word unto new life and the gathering of the elect unto the furtherance of the kingdom.

The doctrine according to Romans 9 is for the praise of the glory of His grace. There is no room at all for us to glory.

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Saturday, August, 25, 2007 2:35 AM ValiantForTruth writes:

Perseverance & concluding remarks…



Aurora states: Those who are saved will never perish, no matter what because true believers are secure in God’s hand. They will persevere in the Biblical sense because of God’s faithfulness, even when they are not faithful. Of course, a life characterized by the world and sin is indeed indicative that a person was never reborn in the first place.

Yes, we can agree on this. I point out that perseverance is a grace of salvation just as the other graces. We cannot stand unless the Lord makes us to stand. We can do nothing apart from Christ.


Regarding concluding remarks:

We both hold that the Scriptures are truth and what has been revealed is for our good. It is true that we all stumble in many ways and love covers a multitude of sins. Thanks for coming over to my back porch and discussing freely your beliefs. As long as we stick to the Bible as our authority and the Spirit as our Teacher nothing but good can come of spending time in the things that God has revealed to us.

It is clear to me that the doctrine of the fall and the doctrine of regeneration are the places of departure. The rest is understood based on those doctrines.

If we believe that all Scripture is profitable, then these doctrines are also profitable. This is something I want to address before we leave this subject.

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Saturday, August, 25, 2007 12:58 PM Flame writes:

Valiant

I think part of the disagreement comes from those pesky verses in Hebrews:

6:4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 6:5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6:6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt.

Here we have the possibility of someone being, in your words, regenerated, yet they can then commit apostasy. Once committing apostasy, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Now the out, of course, is to say they really weren't regenerated or of the elect but that is also what creates the paradox; how do you tell if one is truly of regenerated or of the elect?
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Saturday, August, 25, 2007 3:16 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Sower parable is key...


I do not consider the sower parable an ‘out’. The Hebrews 6 passage borrows language from the parable of the sower. It must be interpreted in a way that does not violate the teaching of the Master. Christ put a priority on this parable as if its understanding is key [Mark 4:13].

Would you consider the soils as the different hearts of men? Only one produced fruit. Who are the Christians in the parable? How was the soil prepared?
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Saturday, August, 25, 2007 3:52 PM Flame writes:

I understand

your point however that does not answer the question of how do you tell someone is Christian. At first, 3 of the 4 would be considered Christian yet one dies when seen in the light, another "falls away" when enticed by worldly ways. This is where I see the Hebrews passage coming in, it is also where the paradox comes in. It also appears where several warnings from the apostles, especially Paul, seem to be directed.
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Sunday, August, 26, 2007 10:58 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Good soil and fruit…


The good soil produces fruit in varying degrees, but the difference between the soils is that the others yield no fruit at all.

Psalm 1 comes to mind…the righteous man is like the tree planted by streams of water which yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither; the wicked are not so…

The regenerate are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works. Those brought to life by the Spirit will exhibit spiritual growth and produce the fruits consistent with the righteousness of faith.

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Wednesday, August, 29, 2007 2:06 PM aurorawatcher writes:

Difficult Subjects

Not all Scripture is as clear as I wish it were. Most is and it bugs me when people distort it. However, I think this debate has been going on for long enough to recognize that it will never be settled -- well, on Judgment Day when we will all get our questions answered.

Remembering that this is not central is a good thing. Salvation is central. How one becomes saved is essential. The exact nature of that salvation is unlikely to be fully understood by any of us this side of heaven. I think we're all going to find a need for doctrinal adjustments of one type or another when we get to stand in the presence of God.

I enjoyed the debate, though I had to catch up on it after an absence because we went to a friend's remote cabin this weekend and I'm still catching up on sleep, laundry and my job.
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Wednesday, August, 29, 2007 6:33 PM Flame writes:

Actually

there will be no need for doctrinal adjustments because Jesus will be with us therefore there will be no discussion. LOL :)

Aurora, I have read some of your "mystery" friend's work both personally and in class. I have truly enjoyed the scholarship that was put into those writings.
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Wednesday, August, 29, 2007 7:31 PM ValiantForTruth writes:

Short course in hermeneutics...


None of us are claiming to know all the answers, but we do make these claims.

[1] What God has revealed in the Scriptures is for us to know for our encouragement. [Romans 15:4]

[2] It is our duty to consider the whole counsel of God revealed in the Scriptures. [Paul’s farewell to Ephesian elders Acts 20]

[3] Knowing that our hearts are deceitful; it is unsafe to hold to doctrine that cannot stand up before the whole counsel of God.

[4] Error in doctrine is evident when it is taken from one reference while contradictory to other Scriptural references. The rule is that more clear passages are used to resolve the less clear, because Scripture is the best interpreter of Scripture.

I would add 2 additional points since they favor my position. It is a matter of church history that Reformed Theology has enjoyed the blessing of God in 2 great revivals that influenced the founding of our country. There are many other examples of a more localized outpouring of the Spirit. For example, of the ones I have read, Charles Spurgeon and Lloyd Jones both saw revival during their ministries. Their sermons are available for anyone who will to see the distinctives of Reformed preaching. Why are these men not held up as examples of God honoring preaching that is blessed of God?

[5] When unclear stay consistent with the major Biblical themes: favor the exaltation of God over man.

[6] Recognize that error always results in weakness in the church and that truth leads to spiritual blessing and in the Providence of God physical blessings as well.


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