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Comment on: TheWayWeAre

Rudy's Rich and Powerful Friends

99 Comments
Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 3:42 PM steveegg writes:

I call it "guaranteeing the future"

Rush Limbaugh said it, as well as various local talk-show hosts, back when Bill Clinton won the 1992 race. A liberal in the White House is an endless source of material, especially one that is scandal-prone.
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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 3:44 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

steve

It sure looks like "the money" is trying to fix this election.
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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 4:32 PM BrianR writes:

No surprises

First of all, I can't be the only one who's noticed that over the last few years Fox's news slant has drifted away from the conservative side. Though not as blatantly leftist as most of the MSM, it's certainly no longer really conservative, either.

But really, when you have Hannity, Medved (never a real con), Limbaugh, Coulter all playing the Bobble-Head Game, what do you expect?

These people have one primary motivation: their own careers. It's risky to take our position, because it's not in the perceived "mainstream" and could jeopardize their access to the players -- or at least that's what they believe. So they're afraid of rocking the boat and demanding accountability. The one recent exception was June's scamnesty, and that's only because the national outrage meter got pegged; it was a safe topic to address aggressively.

I've actually found that local commentators, like John & Ken on AM 640 here in LA, are the better programs to listen to for real positions on this stuff. I stopped listening to Larry Elder and started listening to them.

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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 4:56 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

Another interesting hint recently is McCain teasing about running independent. I have been saying all along that he is going to run with Lieberman. Now with Ron Paul surging to run independent, they could attract 15-20% of the vote. Maybe more. Were Duncan Hunter to also run, we would probably have the first president to win with a mandate consisting of 2/3 of the voters wanting someone else. That is not how elections are supposed to work. I know I'm a nut but that looks like fertile ground to launch a new and popular party. After all, what we advocate here is pretty mainstream even though our critics label it extreme and nutty. A year ago, amnesty was a done deal. Today, it's the new third rail. It's not the only issue the "mainstream" has wrong either.
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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 7:12 PM BrianR writes:

Oh, man...

How Saturday Night Live.

McCain/Lieberman. The Party Reject Party. The PRPs.


Or how about the LiberCons? Conserverals? The Loose Cannon Brigade? The "Pick Us, We're Cool" Party! The PUWCs, pronounced "pukes".



Dude, just got back from the gun store. Bought a Bersa Thunder .380. New toy. It's an Argentinian knock-off of the Sig P-220.

I'm looking at a Mossberg .30-06, only $350! With 3-9 power scope! I might go back down there tomorrow and spring for a new sniper rifle!



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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 7:13 PM BrianR writes:

Oh, I just saw something in my post

The PRPs?


That's pronounced "perps".


LOL
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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 8:14 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

The 3rd party threats are going to change everything if the parties are determined to deliver Hillary vs Rudy for the money people. Looks like this is gonnA be the most bizarre election ever, "Stampede 2008!"

Bersa Thunder .380? Yet another gun I never heard of. I'll look it up. I've been looking at getting a 30-06 but not really knowing what I'm doing, I am leaning towards a Remington 700. What do you think? I'm not doing it anytime soon.
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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 8:23 PM mgraves writes:

Phil

Foxnews seems to slant more populist than conservative.

Watch Shepard Smith do the news, and ask yourself, "when I'm being snarky (and sarcastic), do I sound like this?" The answer is likely yes, but I don't believe that Smith is being snarky ("...but how did something like this happen?") He's merely reflecting what someone has decided is the point of view of the "common man".

NB. In my opinion, a demoguoge is someone who tells the people what he thinks they want to hear (think John Edwards) and a populist actually reflects what the people think (when they don't bother to think things through).
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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 8:24 PM BrianR writes:

Oh, yeah

Remington 300's a beaut. Absolute beaut.


Surprisingly enough, I don't have a bolt action. That's what's prompted my latest spending of my daughter's inheritance.

I have a BSA 9-36 power sniper scope with detachable mount I use on my SA M-1A, and that sucker is a great long range sniper rig. I also have a spare copy of that scope originally intended for my Ruger Mini-14; the gun doesn't match the scope's capability. But I keep thinking I need to milk the most out of... well... the whole sport.

I know the modern snipers and Army Marksmanship Team are using 7mm Rem mag, and in studying the ballistics of that round, I see that it's actually a slightly underperforming twin of the .30-06. Well! I have an M-1, and tons of .30-06 ammo, so how about going the snipers one better?!

Voila! I've developed a need for a bolt action .30-06!




Man, we can talk ourselves into anything if we try hard enough.....
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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 8:34 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

mgraves

I get the distinct impression that Fox is totally on board for Giuliani. They never miss a chance to trash Romney and they always present Giuliani in the most favorable light. There are a lot of reputations being tarnished in this election. I have a feeling the MSM and Fox will converge soon.
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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 8:36 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

Speaking of the Ruger Mini 14, I have a friend who bought one and probably hasn't fired 100 rounds with it. It's in mint condition. What do you think is a good price? When I look at the auction sites, the prices are all over the place.
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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 9:00 PM BrianR writes:

Perfect time to ask, Phil!

Just got back from the gun store, to repeat myself, and a like-new -- possibly BRAND-new, as it had the new "eared" front sight -- Mini-14 was $695. I didn't look closely at the tag to see if it was brand-new or not, but that eared sight is a new offering on that rifle. I always look at prices of guns I own.

To put that in perspective, the Mossberg ATR .30-06 combo I was looking at there was $350, and according to the Mossberg site, MSRP on that combo rifle is $414, so they have pretty aggressive pricing. Same deal on the Bersa I just bought; pretty aggressive pricing.


I have now talked myself into buying that bolt-action tomorrow morning. As I'll go early in the day, I'll be able to pick both guns up at the same time on the same day, the Sunday after this coming one.

Whoooopeeee! New toys!



My daughter will either have to learn how to shoot her inheritance or sell them off. Fortunately, I've found guns to be a pretty good investment, if you keep them in good condition. Examples:

I bought my Mini-14 back in the 70s for about $150. It's in "like-new" condition.

I bought my SA M-1A back around 1989 for the then-imposing price (to me) of about $900. Match Grade. Still in NRA "Excellent" condition.

I have a Uberti-made 1873 .44-40 Colt-clone I bought back in the early 80s for about $100, still in mint shape. I could sell it in a day for triple that.

I have a S&W Model 3000 12 ga. pump shotgun. I have no idea what THAT'S worth, as it was a short-run item manufactured out of country under the S&W logo, and didn't get any traction. Shoots great. I paid about $100 back in the late 70s-early 80s for it; it's in mint condition. Any offers?



Guns are a great.... and fun..... investment. Add a little solvent, gun oil, and elbow grease, and it pays off beautifully.





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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 9:22 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

On the mini14

My friend who has been trying to sell me his for over a year. We just don't have a clue what a fair price is. I'm just as concerned about cheating him as I am of overpaying. I figure $600 plus taxes and transfer fees. I need to start buying ammo more often than I buy guns if I'm ever going to be a good shot.
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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 9:36 PM BrianR writes:

Good call, Phil

Ammo's the key. Otherwise, what you have is an expensive hammer.

I have about 5k rounds in .308 for my M-1A. About 3k .30-06 for my M1, and for my tomorrow purchase of the Mossberg.

Already had a few hundred rounds of .380 on hand for my Accu-Tek, and now with my new Bersa purchase just bought another 1k online, in anticipation of shooting.

Any time, in any calibre, I run low ( less than 500 rounds in-home) it's time to re-order.

Calibers: .38/.357, .45ACP; .45LC; 12 gauge; .30-06; .45-70; 9MM; .380; .308; .22LR; .44-40; .223/5.565MM, and Black Powder guns in .36 Navy and .44 Army.


Give you some idea of one reason why I wasn't too big on abandoning my house to a fire and evacuating?



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Wednesday, November, 14, 2007 9:37 PM BrianR writes:

KA-BOOOOOOOM!

LOL!
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 3:32 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

BrianR

Wouldn't have wanted to be the fireman at your house, LOL!

I have a Bersa Thunder .380 plus, 15 round, not available in CA I'm sure. Great gun, very fun to shoot, probably second favorite next to my Browning. Of course that will change when I get my Sig Super Match, I'm sure.
This is the one I have:

http://www.galleryofguns.com/gungallery/PowerSearch/Product .asp?item_num=THUN380PDT15&index=3&max=20&start=20&instock= None&manufact_combo=Bersa&mod_ser_combo=None&category_combo =None&model=None&g_type=None&act_type=None&finish_type=None &calib_combo=None&sight_class_combo=None&price_range=None&q PromoID=&EZ=&left_handed=&youth=&item_only=0&oldsql=WHERE+m anuf+like+%27%25Bersa%25%27++ORDER+by+manuf%2C+unk2%2C+unk3


My wife thinks I'm nuts for keeping 500 rounds of each caliber on hand.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 3:34 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

You'll find this interesting:

Joe writes: Thursday, November, 15, 2007 2:43 AM
Citizen Dobbs
Oh oh, Virginia Patriot's dream come true. Lou Dobbs may run as a third party candidate. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/11/lou_dobb s_man_of_the_people.html

This will shake things up. I am not sure Dobbs will win, but he would definitely draw votes from the GOP (I suspect more than the Dems }}}}


I thanked Joe for posting this, I would have missed it.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 4:04 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Virginia P

I expect a massive stampede after next February. McCain dropped some hints earlier this week, Hunter is probably available for Dr. Dobson, and you can bet that Ron Paul is going to be on the ballot. Throw in some Dems and we are heading for the wildest election ever. I'm stocking up and popcorn. And today is Xmas for me. I'll be picking up my Browning in a couple of hours.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 4:21 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Congratulations

You waiting period is up, you will love it, I promise.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 6:23 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

BrianR

I hesitate to say this.... but...., the Bersa is more of a knock off of the Makarov. I have a Sig P220ST, it has a ramp barrel, similar to my Ruger P89. The Bersa has a fixed barrel attached to the frame. Easiest to clean of all the guns I own, push the release lever forward, pull the slide back and up at the back and push it forward off the frame and barrel. Voila, disassembled.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 7:05 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

isn't Judith Regan

kind of a loony toon? Not that I doubt Rudy is a bit dirty - he's from NYC for cryin' out loud. I don't think the Bernie thing is going to hurt him one way or the other.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 7:07 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

ps. mgraves

I think mgraves is correct about describing Fox news. I quit watching O'Reilly for a while over something or other. He started letting people (i mean celeb/pols/pundits) slide and I thought he was sucking up for the cocktail parties.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 7:29 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

ScarletP

Judith Regan is not so much looney as she has no sense of propriety. Anything for a buck. But she was willing to publish conservative books when none of the big guys would. And if she was having an affair with Keric and has scads of irrefutable proof that Fox was pressuring to keep on the QT for Rudy, I believe that it will have legs. It's all part of the weirdness of Rudy. I really don't thing America will tolerate the sleaziest matchup of candidate ever. More reason to expect a stampede after February.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 7:34 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Mgraves

Fox lost me after they championed scamnesty. Got worse when they started trashing Romney. It just seems that every Sunday, their guest lineup is geared to helping Rudy. And now that it seems that Ruppert is "boxing the favorites", it's case closed. There is something weird going on with so many "conservatives" endorsing Rudy. At least Mark Levin has stepped up for Thompson and has nothing good to say about Giuliani, McCain or, for that matter, Romney. And I've never been an O'Reilly fan. He'll say "anything for a buck" and always has to trash "right-wing extremists" to prove he is fair and balanced. He's becoming more and more like Larry King every day.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 9:55 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

O'Reilly

He has always been trying to be the popular populist, saying what he thinks "the folks" want to hear. His idea of fair and balanced is to have two people of opposing views on yelling at each other, same goes for Hannit and Colmes. Gives me a headache.
The panelists on Britt's show have all been for amnesty, as has Hulme himself. Hannity has lost all credibility with his RahRahRudyhead BS. You're right Phil, the money is trying to "fix" the election. I sincerely hope primary voters give them some surprises. An awful lot of people, including my own brother are falling for the "Rudy or Hildebeast" line. I still say a ham sandwich with a conservative agenda could beat her.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 10:11 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VirginiaP

I saw you get a "STFU" earlier. Way to go! I've been poking at the paulbots at Hugh's latest post. It's just too easy. Besides, I got my new gun and it's a beaut! I can't believe the sights. And it fits so good in my hand. I should be able to use the same target with the one hole in the middle for years.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 10:17 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

The Gooeys on the main blog are too easy. I'll check back there to see your handiwork. I saw your note at Brian's and left a msg there for you on the new gun.
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Thursday, November, 15, 2007 10:21 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VirginiaP

Saw it. I can't wait to try it out.
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 12:14 AM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

While I do not support Ron Paul, nor do I think he'd make a good President, and his foreign policy would be disastrous, I do think there are good people who support him. Some are natural allies in the fight against the open borders globalists. I have seen some very good posts from some of them on threads on articles. There are some obnoxious ones, for sure, but Jack Shiite, Constitutionalist and some others have added to the discussion.
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 10:39 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

VirginiaP

The problem with the discussion is that the article in question is titled "Ron Paul Campaign and its Neo-Nazi Supporters". I realize that there are respectable people supporting Paul. The problem is that they will not separate themselves from the loonies and neither does their candidate. Maybe they are wrong? Did you read the comments where a couple of them are challenging me to come up with evidence that Paul is anti-Semitic? What's the title of that article again? Do you think they read it? That's the problem. I'm beginning to believe that the "respectable" supporters are dumber than the loonies. Henry Ford, Charles Lindhbergh and Joseph Kennedy and many others supported Hitler too. It is important to consider the evidence, confront those who don't want to acknowledge it and force them to explain themselves. In that it is impossible to get any of these people to explain themselves, loonies and "respectables", how can any sensible person conclude anything but that Ron Paul is everything his critics say, that the charges are true and that his followers are misguided at best. I don't care about Ron Paul's stated positions anymore. Anyone who has "brown shirt" ground operations is dangerous.
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 11:08 AM BrianR writes:

VaPat, Phil

VaPat: yeah, that 15-rounder's a huge no-no here in Leftifornia. But basically the same gun otherwise, but my slide's also satin nickle.

BTW, you mentioned the Mak; as I looked at it more, it's a fairly direct knock-off of the Walther PPK. I'm glad to hear you like it so much; it was fun in the store, and I actually like the caliber, though not for actual combat or serious target work, of course. But it's a fun halfway point between .22 and 9MM for plinking and stuff. My little Accu-Tek is a lot of fun, but the damn slide just cuts a bloody groove in the web of my mitt. I tried using a glove, and I shot more rounds until the slide cut through the glove and right back into my hand again. Blood all over the bottom of the slide. Fortunately it's stainless.


Last minute change on the Mossberg, too. I decided on and bought it in .308 instead of -06. Pretty identical performance ballistically, and my M-1A (.308) simply outperforms my M1 (.30-06) no matter what, and they're both National Match guns. It's just an inherently morew accurate round, IMO, and frankly that's pretty much been the consensus in the sport. Which is why the M-1As replaced the M1s at Camp Perry lo those many years ago.



Hey, Phil, enjoy your new toy, and let's get a performance/fun report/evaluation post-range, dude!

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Friday, November, 16, 2007 11:27 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

What a coincidence that you switched to .308. I was just having a discussion a few minutes ago where my friend recommended that I get a .308 instead of th 30-06. Sez that it is better ammo hands down.

Evaluation report guaranteed. I might go out this tomorrow.
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 2:28 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

BrianR

That's what I thought also, that it was closer to the PPK, but another "expert" corrected me and said it was closer to the Makarov. Whatever, it is a perfect concealed carry gun, especially with Golden Sabre personal defense rounds, 102 gr. boattail. The wraparound rubber grips on the one I have are terrific as well.
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 2:31 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

I see your point. My only point is that Paul is no threat to get the nomination, while Gooey is. Time spent antagonizing Paul supporters who may be allies might be better spent on the RahRahRudyheads. Just MHO.
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 2:50 PM BrianR writes:

Yeah, guys

.308, no question about it.


I looked at those wrap-arounds, and I may do that after I get the gun. Gotta say, it felt pretty darned good just as it was.

Look at the pics at these links:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F% 2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Dmakarov%2Bpi c&w=640&h=480&imgurl=www.bayourovers.com%2FMakarov.jpg&size =75.4&name=Makarov.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1911forum.com %2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D75706&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fww w.1911forum.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D75706&p=mak arov&type=jpeg&no=3&tt=20%2C186

That's the Mak. Now the Bersa:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F% 2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Dbersa%2Bthun der%2B.380%2Bpic&w=250&h=159&imgurl=carnival.saysuncle.com% 2Fimages%2FBersa_Thunder_380_L-thumb.jpg&size=9.6&name=Bers a_Thunder_380_L-thumb.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcarnival.saysu ncle.com%2F002706.html&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcarnival.saysuncle .com%2F002706.html&p=bersa+thunder+.380&type=jpeg&no=2&tt=2 57

Now the PPK:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F% 2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Dwalther%2Bpp k%2Bpic&w=565&h=426&imgurl=www.bayourovers.com%2FWaltherPPK .jpg&size=50.1&name=WaltherPPK.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1 911forum.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D75704&rurl=htt p%3A%2F%2Fwww.1911forum.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3 D75704&p=walther+ppk&type=jpeg&no=1&tt=7%2C862

Now the Sig P232:

http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails. aspx?categoryid=10&productid=68


To me, they all look pretty much the same, and are all .380.

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Friday, November, 16, 2007 2:57 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

BrianR

You're right, they do look very similar. When you compared it to the P220 in your initial comment, I thought maybe you meant another gun in the Sig line. I got tired of waiting for my Super Match, so I got the P220ST, .45 ACP stainless frame and slide, not manufactured anymore for some strange reason. Can't figure out why, the stainless frame handles the recoil better than the alloy frame IMHO.
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 3:02 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

BrianR

So you're whole gun is satin nickel? I have only seen them as all black or two tone like I have.
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 3:26 PM BrianR writes:

Yeah, VaPat

I goofed in that first comment. I wrote P220, but I meant the P232. My bad.

Yeah, mine's satin all over.

Gotta say, I really like a SS gun. My SA's all stainless. As was my Randall, which got stolen. That was the first production SS .45. Collector's piece. Damn.

But with SS, maintenance worries pretty much disappear as to finish-fade, rust spots, etc. Pretty cool. That's why I bought the Accu-Tek to begin with. A knockaround, in the backpack or camera bag gun, small, SS, no worries.

I really don't like alloy frames in bigger guns, especially .45. I had a S&W 439 (the OTHER gun that got stolen, with my Randall), alloy frame 9MM, and it didn't handle recoil for sh*t. I fired one of the original Paras, back from when all they made was alloy; same deal. I think any time you hit 9MM and above, steel frame is it. Issures of longevity arise, too.

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Friday, November, 16, 2007 9:31 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

Just got back from the pistol range with my Browning. Brian is right about ammo making a difference. I was in the zone tonight. First clip was all inside 4" at 20 yards. Tightest group I've shot so far. I am anxious to hear how you like yours once you get a chance to try it out.
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 9:38 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Virginia P

What kind of ammo did you use? I've been using Remington Thunderbird Hi-Speed .22 LR for my rifle and plan to use that for my Browning.
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 10:05 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

I had been shooting the Federal standard stuff from Walmart. Tonight I was using the Eley that I ordered on Brian's recommendation. Best grouping I have ever shot. I have tried the Remington Target, which was better than the Federal cheap stuff, but the Eley is terrific. I have found the high speed works well with my Marlin 795 rifle, but that standard velocity gives me better resluts from the pistol. The one exception would be CCI minimag, that's high velocity and it does well in both the pistol and the rifle. CCI green dot is another good round for the Browning, that is a standard velocity target round. One to avoid is Aguila, I ended up with powder burns on my hand the one time I used it. Because the Browning is open on both sides during it's firing cycle, unburned, or more acurately, still burning, powder can be ejected onto your hand. Ouch!
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Friday, November, 16, 2007 10:11 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VirginiaP

How critical is sub-sonic vs super-sonic? I understand that for small caliber ammo, it's better to go with the slower ammo because there isn't enough power to stay accurate going through the sound barrier.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 1:38 AM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

I bought a box of Remington subsonic, but I have not fired any yet, so I can't really tell you how well it works. The box says it has muzzle velocity of 1049 fps, the Remington target ammo is listed as 1150 fps, the CCI minimag is listed as 1235 fps the Federal is listed as 1280 fps. I think the standard velocity .22LR is best for target practice in a pistol. The high velocity is preferred in a rifle. The book that came with my Marlin 795 says only use high velocity, they recommend CCI minmag, Federal classic, Remington High Velocity (not Thunderbolt), and Winchester Super X. The Browning book makes no mention of what ammo to use at all. My own experience with the Browning has been the slower the better. The Federal hollow points at Walmart at $9.88 a box of 550 is so cheap, I tend to use that alot, but the more expensive stuff does give better results.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 10:44 AM BrianR writes:

IMO

in .22 subsonic's always better, and the Eley's the best. My Marlin will cycle with the Eley, no prob.

I tried the Aguila subsonic, I think they call it Sniper, something like that, and though it's incredibly accurate, it turns my guns into single-shots; won't eject. Very short case, loooong bullet, 60gr.

I just looked on the web: Aguila SSS (Sub Sonic Sniper).



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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 11:46 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

VirginiaP, BrianR

The Remington's I'm stocked up with have 1255 fps muzzle velocity which appears to be about 100 fps faster than standard ammo. Claims to be more accurate up to 40 yds. I'll have to check my manual to see what they recommend.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 2:02 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

I have found the Browning will cycle fine and give good results with just about anything, but the best accuracy (I shoot at 20 yards) is with the slower stuff.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 2:03 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

BrianR

Do you know the muzzle velocity of the Eley? I threw the box out before I checked.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 2:23 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

What you have on hand will work fine, I'm sure. I haven't used the Thunderbolt myself but it's in between the minimag and the Federal in speed. The Eley has been the best I've tried, but it is more costly and I can't get it locally, only online. Ammo has to be signed for when delivered and my wife hates guns and gives me a hard time about it if she has to sign for it.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 3:01 PM BrianR writes:

Yeah, it's right at

about 1000 fps, depending on barrel length. Here's their site:

http://www.eley.co.uk/


But there are other factors, too, which is why it's more expensive. More consistent bullets, the priming system, powder, etc.

I've shot standard velocity domestic stuff that's good, CCI and Remington as I recall, but the Eley's still better.

Almost all the Olympic teams use it, and they don't make that choice lightly.

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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 3:41 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR, VPat

I'm out the door in a couple of minutes and on my way to the range. Report later.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 7:09 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR, VPat

I'm back! What a gun! Thanks for recommending it to me. I started at 7 yds and blew a hole out of the bull's eye with my first 50 shots. Moved out to 15 yds where I still kept everything in the black and mostly within 2 inches of the bull's eye eventually blowing out the middle after about 200 shots. I could probably tighten my grouping my developing a more consistent approach to each shot. I sprayed but tended left and down when I missed. Could have gone out to 25 yds but you have to wait about 20 minutes between cease fires to take a look and I can't see the holes from that far. But there was a metal 12" disc at about 125 yds (Brian is familiar with Angeles) and I hit it with 7 of 10 shots. I can appreciate how good you have to be to group tight at 20 yds. Everything about this gun is terrific. I really liked the fiber-optic sights. And the trigger is smooth as can be. Feels great in the hand and looks cool. I let two other guys there try it and they both said that they are making it their next gun. Thanks for the advice guys.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 8:02 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

Glad to hear you like it, I kinda knew you would, I love mine. Plinking that steel at 125 yards is pretty darn impressive. The motorized target holders on overhead rails is one thing I like about the indoor range I go to. No waiting to change targets like at the outdoor range I use for rifles. I did take my Winchester 94 to the indoor range today, wanted to try it with .357 magnum, had only used .38 special so far. It definitely has more kick with the magnum, but not too bad. My brother-in-law has one in .44 that is great with .44 special, but kicks too much for me with .44 magnum. That was one of the reasons I was looking for one in .38/.357. The VisiShot targets make seeing your hits much easier at distances over 10 yards. What kind of targets are you currently using?
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 8:22 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VPat

I was using the standard black on white targets provided my the range. Even with my binoculars, it is hard to see the holes. I'll bring my own next time. On that steel plinking, it's really not that impressive when you think about it. I shot at it was in my sight line behind my target and it looked as big as my 8" target. If I can group most of my shots to within 4" from 15 yds, it's not that hard to group them within 12" at 125 yds. That ammo only drops about 2-4" at that distance. Missing it 3 times is still less accurate than my close up accuracy.

I was shooting next to some big guns too. There was a dwarf, couldn't have been more than 2 feet tall, shooting what must have been a .375 and hitting targets at 125 yds without a scope. Cussed like a sailor too.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 8:29 PM BrianR writes:

Excellent

Phil, if you're right-handed and your string is going down and to the left, you're pushing the trigger with your finger. You may have too much of the tip of your finger on the trigger.

Try moving more of the pad onto the trigger, and concentrate on moving the trigger directly back.

You may also have the gun in an angled grip. I like to make sure the gun and my forearm align.

There you go; some unsolicited advice. Worth every penny you paid for it.

Sounds like a fun time, and that's some pretty good shooting. Wait til you try it with Eleys!



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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 8:32 PM BrianR writes:

PS, Phil

Actually, you did do appreciably better at the 125 yd target.

If you got a 4" group at 15 yards, that accuracy level treanslates into 32" at 120 yards, and that disk isn't that big. So you shot more accurately at the longer-range target.

Not surprising; you were probably trying harder, more concentration, etc.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 8:35 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

One of the guys I was shooting with said the same thing about my trigger finger at the range. I know I'm doing alot of things wrong because I can't seem to settle into a comfortable and consistent approach. There's alot of "zen" to this which is a big reason why shooting appeals to me. I try to get a rhythm as I aim rather than try to stop all movement. I'm going to have a friend of mine show me how to aim my sights better Monday with a laser device (I don't know anything about that). I don't have a feel for exactly when I am dead on center. I'll definitely try those Eleys when I think I'm good enough to tell the difference. I'm really not a good shot yet. What exactly are the Eleys you recommend?
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 8:40 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

That 125 yd target

Might be all in my head but it just seemed bigger and easier to hit. Maybe it's because I wasn't aiming for dead center nor putting as much pressure on myself to hit it. I tried doing the same with my Glock and might as well have been aiming for a dime. I wonder if it would help to put fiber-optic sights on my Glock?
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 8:51 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phl

You're right about the "zen" thing, it's also one of the things about shooting that appeals to me as well. And it's less frustrating than golf. Lot's of concentration involved in both, but I enjoy shooting way more. Brian is correct about finger placement, the middle of the pad of your finger should be on the trigger and squeeze straight back. I find I do best by slowly raising the gun as I'm sighting until I'm lined up, then squeezing off the shot. It works for me, I get less hand shake than if I stand there too long trying to line it up perfectly.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 9:05 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VPat

That is my technique too. I don't take long to aim and fire. It's more of a rhythm. The "zen" thing also involves breath control and lowering your pulse. It's very relaxing. There is something so satisfying in hitting something far away consistently and accurately. It seems impossible to to. Like the first time I shot clays. I never believed I could hit even one but hit my first three.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 9:23 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Here's a link to the Eley site

http://www.eley.co.uk/olympic_pistol.htm

As you'll see, there are many types available.
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Saturday, November, 17, 2007 9:28 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Another link

This is where I bought mine, Brian probably knows a better source, these are kind of expensive. At least compared to what I usually buy.

http://www.championshooters.com/store/home.php?cat=295

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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 11:35 AM BrianR writes:

The Zen

Yes, exactly. That's exactly the mindset I use. I find if I hold on target too long, the shakes set in and my pulse starts bouncing the sights around. Then the gun goes back down, and I start again. It's also that "feel" of when the shot's going to work. As VP wrote, almost one continuous action, smooth. I have everything else set up -- grip placement, finger placement, etc -- before bringing the gun up.

The mind must be clear; no job worries allowed, forget about getting laid... eye, arm, hand, fingers, front sight, firm grip, ease back the trigger, pop.

I chuckle every time I pull into the range and hear someone cranking off a full mag and look over and see he managed to hit the berm with every shot. Puffs of dirt all over the place, wafting away in the breeze. Too many Die Hard movies.

The Eley I use is usually the "standard" stuff, either for pistol or rifle depending on which I'm using it in. The least expensive Eley is better than anything else out there, and is so good that for my skill level I can't justify using their more expensive stuff. Maybe if I were using a $3000 .22 rifle or pistol, but not for a standard production model gun.

VP, your guy has really good pricing. Here's another one:

http://www.gzanders.com/

Cabela's carries Remington-branded Eley, and it's almost twice as expensive, at about $9/box. Sheesh.

Eley standard stuff's about $4/box. Match is about $9/box and up. Target grade's about $4-5/box.
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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 11:38 AM BrianR writes:

Oh! A PS

Using standard grade stuff is also easier on your gun than high- or hyper-velocity stuff.

I know that you're probably thinking "Big deal! It's only .22".

Yeah, but the gun's not engineered to handle .45s, it's engineered for .22s.

My Ruger Mark 1's about 30 years or so old. Rugers are really solid; that's part of their rep.

Even so, a couple or so years ago the recoil spring guide broke, and I had to replace it.

It happens.

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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 3:31 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

All right VirginiaP

Disassembled my Buck to clean it this a.m. Manual says firing pin housing should stay together on removal. Didn't. Sproing! Is there a trick for keeping the spring depressed while sticking recoil rod into the plastic buffer and slide? Seems like it requires 3 hands and a special tool.
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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 3:41 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VirginiaP

Never mind. As always happens, I figured it our once I gave up. This gun is going to be a b*tch to clean.
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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 7:21 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

It's not so bad once you've done it a couple of times. What I do is after I have removed screws and sight mounting plate, hold slide in place as you pull front of rod out of housing on the top of slide. If you pull it up slowly, holding back slighty on the spring retainer, once you've cleared the slide, just lift spring, rod and plastic buffer out. When reassembling, I place slide on gun, stick the buffer on end of rod and get it in hole on vertical frame piece first and then pushing slightly back on spring housing lower it into slide. As I said, afetr a couple of times, it'll be second nature.
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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 7:41 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

P.S.

First time I did it, I had the same experience. The key is that the slide be fully forward and stationary while removing and installing recoil spring, rod, and buffer. Hook the front edge of the spring retainer with your fingernail and wiggle it up and out. I just took mine apart to clean it so i could describe it accurately. Piece of cake once you do a few times.
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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 7:49 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VirginiaP

I'm sure you're right. Even the Glock gave me problems until I figured out the trick to popping it open. The Buck is really simple and I wasted about 45 minutes looking for the spring that bounced across the room and settled behind a bookcase. The key was to force the buffer to hold the rod so the entire firing pin assembly can be re-installed as a unit. It was very greasy, probably over-lubed at the factory. The Glock also had special copper lubrication on the rail when new. I wonder why they do that?
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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 8:19 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

One other thing

Make sure hammer is down (can be pushed down manually) before you try to put slide on.
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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 8:34 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

Every gun I have purchased has had what I consider to be excess lubrication in it when I got them. It's funny, because in the instructions they tell you not to overlubricate them. I think they figure many people will fire the thing until it won't fire anymore before they clean it and don't want them to run dry. I clean mine every 200-300 rounds, but I'm probably unusually finicky. By the way, the best gun lube I have found is Miltec-1. It is heat activated and actually bonds with the metal, after 3 or 4 applications the gun is almost self lubricating. The website is:

http://militec1.com/

go to online store button and then click on civilians enter here. I bought a 4 oz. bottle, it will probably last me years with 8 guns. It goes a long way, very little needed per application.
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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 8:44 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VirginiaP

I figure they over-lube expecting the guns to stay on store shelves for months and they are taking no chances. I clean mine everytime I use them. I usually shoot 300-500 rounds anyway and I like knowing they are clean. I'll get some of that Miltec-1 too.
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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 11:01 PM BrianR writes:

Guys

VP, just answered your comment at my place. I've been using the Miltec for years, and it's absolutely outstanding stuff.

Fir cleaning, I suggest M-Pro 7. It is simply out-freakin-standing for making gun cleaning easy.

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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 11:01 PM BrianR writes:

It also

works on guns, not just "fir"s.

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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 11:04 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Thanks Brian

I was going to try it on fur. Whew!
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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 11:06 PM BrianR writes:

I just had a thought

I thought I'd share with you guys. As you know (or do now, VP, if you didn't), California now has micro-stamping as the law in this state starting in a couple of years or so. All semi-autos will have to have the technology manufactured into the gun to be sold here.

Are the gun manufacturers going to manufacture special models only for the California market? Or has California essentially created a de facto new national requirement?

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Sunday, November, 18, 2007 11:14 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

My understanding is that a growing number of manufacturers are no longer going to sell guns in CA anymore. I'm hoping the NRA challenges the law as unconstitutional. Mostly, I expect the law will be circumvented. It's certainly going to kill the re-load business at Angeles
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Monday, November, 19, 2007 12:21 AM Virginia Patriot writes:

Guys

Ruger has already announced they will not ship semi-auto product to CA. I expect other manufactureres to follow suit. It may have been CA's intent to defacto this onto the rest of the country, but it doesn't look like it will work out that way. Buy 'em now while you still can.
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Monday, November, 19, 2007 1:22 AM BrianR writes:

VP.....GOOD!

THAT'S what I want the manufacturers to do. Boycott Calileftifornia.

Let's see what happens when the cops can't get autos, and are forced by this asinine law to go back to buying revolvers.

That was what Barrett did when the there was some fed law threatened -- I wish I remembered all the details, OY! -- about requiring a special license for ownership under the "destructive weapons act". They said "fine, we won't sell to the Feds anymore until you change your mind!"

End of problem and the stupid threat.

Gotta hand it to Barrett: he is one principled MoFo!



Oh! BTW! New essay at the Island!
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Monday, November, 19, 2007 5:49 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Thanks Doc

It's very satisfying looking back over the past year. At this time last year, amnesty was a done deal, McCain was a lock for the nomination and Iraq was lost. Today, amnesty has become the new third rail in politics for both parties, McCain is history and Iraq may yet be won. Just goes to show how utterly wrong and out of touch the DNC and RNC are and the perils of abandoning voters for the sake of money. And BOTH parties are in peril today. For a two-party system where both "major" parties combined account for only about 55% of all voters is not a healthy situation. If you play around with the Rasmussen from two weeks ago that was predicting huge new registrations in 2008 driven by disgust of both parties, were these new voters to register as unaffiliated independents, the number might sink below 50%. We may see the next president elected with 2/3 of voters casting their ballots for someone else. That would be a mandate that could no longer be ignored. Just try to get latest figures on party registrations. As of November 2004, it was 25.7% Republican and 32-33% Democrat. Both have since gone down but what are the real numbers? Those are not "major party" numbers.
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Monday, November, 19, 2007 5:57 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

And Doc

Even if I'm wrong, for the GOP to be staring into the abyss might be the dose of reality needed for them to snap out of it. One of the things I got out of talking to the politicos at Blogworld is that whereas the Dems are too responsive to their bloggers, mostly Daily Kos and MoveOn.org, the GOP is completely unresponsive to anyone other than the big money. This has led to nothing but problems for them. And now we are seeing the "conservative" bloggers sucking up to Rudy. Caving in to the GOP power merchants just like they did with amnesty.
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Monday, November, 19, 2007 6:51 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

The major donors are the only source of money they have coming in. I've read recently where the individual voter donations have dried up at the RNSC, RNCC, and the RNC. People have apparently been doing what I've been doing and returning the solicitations/questionnaires without money and with a strongly worded warning. Secure the borders, enforce the law. I realize they end up in the garbage and they aren't listening still, but they do so at their own peril.
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Monday, November, 19, 2007 7:09 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VPat

They may be throwing them in the gargage, but the message is not going unnoticed. It's just a matter of time before someone steps up and "corrects" the situation. Like Duncan Hunter taking a big crowd of Repubs with him in running independent. That would be sweet.
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Monday, November, 19, 2007 10:28 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

Can you exlain "throwaway e-mail addresses" to me? I have the one that I have at work, and the one at home. They both identify me by name. Do they make it possible to send and receive e-mails while retaining anonymity?
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Monday, November, 19, 2007 10:35 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VPat

You can set-up e-mail addresses that you plan to use one and then delete. Go into inbox and click on tools then click on "e-mail accounts". That brings up a wizard that guides you through setting up a new account (or changing or deleting it). All e-mail addresses will deliver your e-mails to the same mail box. You know which address was used because it is indicated in the "from" box in the e-mail. My e-mail on this blog was set up as a throw-away but I have never received any junk so I kept it.
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Monday, November, 19, 2007 11:02 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

Thanks.
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Tuesday, November, 20, 2007 9:34 AM Virginia Patriot writes:

Doc

Welcome aboard! Hunter is the best the GOP has, all we have to do is break through the RNC's propaganda campaign to convince people to vote for a liberal. I think once the real polling (voting) starts, things will look a lot different. I am hoping third party options are not needed, Hillary probably benefits from all those scenarios. I agree that Hunter may not be persuaded to bolt the party. Then again, if Rudy is the nominee, he might for the good of the country.
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Tuesday, November, 20, 2007 10:35 AM BrianR writes:

Here's the dilemma for conservatives

We have several good options in the primary: Hunter, Thompson, Tancredo.

The problem is, we cons will end up splitting our votes between them. The GOP machine's obviously behind Giuliani and Romney (he's been very effective working at the different state levels).

So while we're dispersing our votes all over the place, Joe Sixpack, who hasn't been paying much attention to this whole thing, goes in and casts his collective vote for one of the "top tier".


Now, IMO, the one thing that could really change this dynamic, and I hope it does, is what Doc's been saying: Giuliani is too liberal to survive the primaries, and is perceived as such early in the primaries.

I'm not as sanguine; the guy's a huckster, and apparently a lot of folks buy his line. I had to "re-educate" my own parents!

I know that the California experience would sure point to the idea as being optimistic.

Governator RINO, anyone?
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Tuesday, November, 20, 2007 11:19 AM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

I disagree that the GOP machine is behind Romney. The reason they haven't gone after him is because there is no dirt and he has his own money. And they are trying to take him out in NH by boosting McCain's phony "surge". The GOP still thinks they can nip his campaign in the bud. They just don't think he can win. Hunter would have the same or better status if he had his own money. The thought of Rudy or McCain not being the nominee just doesn't seem possible to them. And I wan't to remind Doc again that the reason I will re-register Republican briefly is to vote for Hunter in the CA primary. That is my favorite candidate and still believe he will be the VP behind Romney. Otherwise, I hope he runs independent.
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Tuesday, November, 20, 2007 12:41 PM BrianR writes:

Well, Phil

I've read that Romney's been very effective at the state level with the various state GOP committees, advertising, etc.

But be that as it may, your scenario atually paints an even BLEAKER picture, because let's face it: Giuliani's their man. If they're not diluting their own effort, and backing solely Bald Hillary, it could be very problematic, unless he does a Dean.... and one thing I doubt is that Baldy would do that.

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Tuesday, November, 20, 2007 1:35 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

BrianR

Been thinking the same thing, Rudy sneaks through because the anti-Rudy vote is splintered. VA votes later in the cycle, so I may be voting strategically. Hunter is who I want, but I could support Thompson or Romney in the general. I will be keeping a close eye on how things unfold and may change my primary vote if needed.
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Tuesday, November, 20, 2007 1:42 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

It's also important to remember that the various state GOP committees are not necessarily falling in line with the NRC. The division is deep. The Bush machine is four square behind Rudy.
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Tuesday, November, 20, 2007 1:48 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Correction

RNC, not NRC (National Rudy Committee)
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Wednesday, November, 21, 2007 12:13 PM BrianR writes:

LOL, Phil

Freudian slip?
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Wednesday, November, 21, 2007 12:29 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

BrianR

I amaze myself sometimes at my typos. Some of my comments are incoherent.
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Wednesday, November, 21, 2007 12:43 PM BrianR writes:

Heh heh heh, Phil

Yeah, me, too.

I'll type something, re-read it before posting it, it looks fine, hit "post your comments", and while it's still waiting to to go through, spot another typo.

Or hit "post" on something that looks just fine, and what ends up appearing on the page looks like it was typed by a not-so-well-trained monkey.

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Wednesday, November, 21, 2007 5:00 PM Virginia Patriot writes:

Phil

I hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving. I'm going to West Va. over the weekend to do some shooting. Everybody else will be shooting at deer. I will be shooting at steel plates. Love shooting, don't want to kill anything. Some of my relations don't quite get that, but oh well.
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Wednesday, November, 21, 2007 5:31 PM BrianR writes:

Yeah, VPat

I'm the same way. A shooter, not a hunter.

I do my hunting in the supermarket. Guaranteed success, don't have to freeze my noches off, meat's already dressed.

Hunting's not for me. Wake up way-dark-thirty in the morning, traipse around all day lugging the equipment, maybe... MAYBE.... get off a shot or two, dress the animal and drag it back....

Fuggedabouddit!

Go to the range after a leisurely morning sipping coffee, reading the paper and debating on TH, blast off a couple hundred rounds in comfort, sitting in my camp chair..... yep. That's me.
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Wednesday, November, 21, 2007 5:32 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

VPat : Thank you

And same to you. I'll be spending the holiday with friends (several of my friends take in stray cats like me). I'll be doing some shooting too. BTW, I showed my new Browning around the office today and one guy ordered one for himself and another said he would too after he clears it with his wife.
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Wednesday, November, 21, 2007 5:40 PM Pasadena Phil writes:

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!!

I'm going to be doing lots of cooking. I like cooking. I have a 25 lb turkey thawing.
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