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Comment on: Wailer's Blog

Why Do We Allow This?

68 Comments
Friday, January, 18, 2008 8:40 PM RecknHavic writes:

Something Is Wrong...

...your analysis.

I'm kiddn.

Community involvement is a good place to start, especially w/ kids who are less privilaged. However, parents MUST be held accountable. When a society glorifies promiscuity and instant gratification it's no wonder we have a lack of involvement from parents (especially fathers). The problem tho isn't a lack of resources (for education), but a lack of direction. W/out moral standards how can we expect many of these kids to not choose "random acts of violence"?

Let's bring moral guidelines back into our education system, startn w/ school prayer.
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Sunday, January, 20, 2008 12:31 AM Stan @ tbsn.thesequencers.us writes:

(School) Prayer

only closes eyes further, IMHO. Alot of people have been praying for a long time, and the result? The further degradation of American society.
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Sunday, January, 20, 2008 1:00 AM Stan @ tbsn.thesequencers.us writes:

What does School Prayer teach?

"When you wish upon a star
Makes no difference who you are" ;-)
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Sunday, January, 20, 2008 1:13 AM Linda writes:

Reck

I agreed w/ everything except your last sentence. I, as a parent, bring moral guidelines to my kids...I don't expect, nor want that from my public school. They may not reflect what I believe. Teach my kids what they need to get into college. What you don't teach them? I will. But school prayer isn't gonna make my kids' morals better...parents bringing them up with morals will. If a parent wants prayer, send em to private school. Imagine if the way the school handled prayer didn't coincide w/ the way you'd want it done? Oh, big problems! Prayer...not the answer in schools.
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Sunday, January, 20, 2008 1:24 AM Stan @ tbsn.thesequencers.us writes:

Well said Linda

except for this part -
> If a parent wants prayer, send em to private school.

Well, yes and no. Send them to Sunday school (which is I admit a type of private school.)
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Sunday, January, 20, 2008 8:43 PM Linda writes:

stan

Thanks for puttin "When You Wish Upon a Star" in my head...been singin it all night.
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Sunday, January, 20, 2008 11:07 PM RecknHavic writes:

Moral Standards

The Ten Commandments on the wall in a classroom; a one minute moment of silence to acknowledge the Creator (in prayer if you so choose); Bibles used as a tool in English Lit; teaching the theory of Intellegent Design...would that be so bad? How about corporal punishment? Strictly enforced dress codes? Distribution of Ronald Reagan and/or Duke Wayne posters?

Anyone of the above would improve public schools IMHO.
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Monday, January, 21, 2008 10:33 AM Linda writes:

not bad

Yes, many would argue it's bad. You want the 10 Commandments on the wall? What if you live in Dearborn? Are you ready for the...whatever the Muslim equivelent is? People are complaining about footbaths there. Just don't think it's the place for it. I'd support the Wayne posters if that makes you happy.:)

Reg. intellegent design. Why don't they just teach kids the evolution theory and explain that there's a creationist theory, as well as intellegent design and that people believe different things, and no one knows for sure how it all went down. That's what I told my kids.
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Monday, January, 21, 2008 10:52 AM RecknHavic writes:

The Five Pillars Of Islam

If Islam ever becomes the dominant religion in this country, then sure. But we are currently (and have always been) a Christian nation. We get our founding principles from our Judeo-Christian values.

Now, I agree w/ your second point, the theory of evolution and Intellegent Design should both be taught. I'd take evolution another step and explain micro-evolution (adaptability) as well.

And it's not that I want to force everyones kids to believe what I think is correct; just yours ;)
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Monday, January, 21, 2008 5:59 PM Linda writes:

it would never work

Mm...lucky me. ;)

With people (granted, whackos) getting disgruntled over their kids havin to say "under God" in the pledge...it just wouldn't float. It's too late. That's right...we're too far gone. You try and bring that in now and it's gonna be mayhem. Even Christians who think they're on the same page w/ other Christians, will find problems with it. Leave it to the church.

I have no personal experience (with peers), that has shown me that belief in God improves ones morality. I'm not making a sweeping claim, just sayin.
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Tuesday, January, 22, 2008 1:55 AM Stan @ tbsn.thesequencers.us writes:

Re: The Five Pillars Of Islam

> But we are currently (and have always been) a Christian nation.

Garbage.
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Tuesday, January, 22, 2008 1:57 AM Stan @ tbsn.thesequencers.us writes:

What about the 10 Commandments

from the Torah on the wall?

Would that be ok?
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Tuesday, January, 22, 2008 12:26 PM RecknHavic writes:

Back To Basics

Whether it's schools or society in general, a return to moral guidelines is a return to what is right. In fact, going back is sometimes the more "progressive" thing to do.

Re: your personal experience w/ peers who's belief in God doesn't translate into improved morals. I guess it depends on what you mean by belief.
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder." James 2:19
An intellectual belief alone isn't enough. If we believe in Him then we must surrender all to Him. Then, and only then, will those changes in moral behavior occur.
"for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose." Philippians 2:13
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Tuesday, January, 22, 2008 7:14 PM RecknHavic writes:

Mayhem

Linda said, "You try and bring that (schoolprayer, ect) in now and it's gonna be mayhem". I would say that the reason there's mayhem in schools now is because of a lack of a moral standards/examples.

It's not just schools. Ever see those slasher movie ads on tv, they come on during kid programs. These movies should be rated NC17. Why should my (or your) children be exposed to this garbage? How about the ED commercials, the tv ads w/ scantly dressed women? They show these things on every freakin channel.

And don't tell me to "just turn off the tv". I say we ban together and demand change. Boycotts, who we elect to office, supportn stations that won't air this stuff. There are avenues to fight back.

Ok, I'm still p*ss*d about Duncan Hunter. I'm just sayn...
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Tuesday, January, 22, 2008 8:55 PM Linda writes:

ads

Oh, I'm 100% with you on the ads. D thinks I'm nuts for cringing at those Victoria Secret ads, and I'm thinkin 'what happened to boys sneakin off to look at the Sears catalog?' Remember when THAT was considered racey? It's craziness.

I hear you on the moral standard/examples, too Reck. I just don't feel that it has to be God based. You can teach morality with or without God, imo. If I could draw you a Venn diagram to illustrate my point, I would. ;)

Well, when I ran into easy Catholic school girl grads in college, I didn't think to ask em if they'd REALLY surrendered themselves to Him. I didn't know you then. ;) (They didn't seem to have a problem surrendering themselves, in general, tho.)
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Tuesday, January, 22, 2008 10:05 PM RecknHavic writes:

The Golden Rule

Lol..those Catholic school girls.

I guess the difference is I see morals founded in God, you see them founded in man's enlightenment; that's an understandable difference. We agree on so much, however, I'm not gonna pull any punches on what I think are the true foundations of moral principles.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human traditions and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." Col 2:8

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Tuesday, January, 22, 2008 10:50 PM Linda writes:

I think

morals can be founded in a number of ways. God is certainly one of them. I just don't think it has to be exclusive to God. I know you can argue my point w/ scripture, and to expect you to argue it any other way wouldn't make sense to you. The same way argueing (sp?) with scripture doesn't prove your point to me.

Do you think, then, that people can live their lives in accordance to God's moral laws without actually using God to help form their morals? Did that make sense?

Look...I'm NO angel, but in college I was considered practically prudish, and I never met an agnostic in college. (I know I keep going back to that particular time in my life, but that was when I had the most experience w/ a host of different people, and the time when talking about things of this nature occurred most, so bear w/ me.)

For example, had a (Catholic) gal explain to me that I was going to hell (for lack of belief), while she had had an abortion (and didn't tell her bf,who turned out to become her husband, btw.) I have trouble w/ this for obvious reasons. Oh, I understand the biblical reasons, but you get my frustration. I've just seen a lot of hypocracy. And shoot, it's not even hypocracy, cuz she just had to attone, and she's all set. If I'm goin to hell, than it should be for more than I've done.
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Tuesday, January, 22, 2008 11:04 PM Linda writes:

sorry,

I have a tendency to ramble like you're sittin next to me.

Before you make this point for me, allow me to beat you to it. Granted, I did not surround myself with people I met at Sunday service. An excellent point. But they were still had religious upbringing, and either rejected it, or weren't living in accordance w/ it. I probably could have just said that, but ya can't take a post back.
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Wednesday, January, 23, 2008 9:32 AM Linda writes:

inclusion

reg...."than it should be for more than I have done". Or haven't done.
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Wednesday, January, 23, 2008 9:50 AM Prince Of Wails writes:

No Scripture here,

I don't understand anyone's objection to a moment of silence in school every morning to begin the day. In that moment children of various faiths can express whatever they would like.

Linda, why would you let the hypocrisy of others determine anything for you? Saying "I don't believe in" or "I won't go to church because" they have hypocrites or you have witnessed in college hyporctical behavior doesn't get it for me. That would be like saying "I know of bad Dr.'s, Lawyer's, CPA's, etc, so I'm never going to the Dr., I'm never going to hire a lawyer or a CPA. In fact, their are hypocrites at the grocery store too...get my point.

Your college friend that had an abortion was able to "atone" because of Christ's Covenant. He was sent here to die for so that we might confess our sins and be with him in Heaven.

Do sinners sin over and over again? Yes, because we are human. Are we forgiven every single time when we ask--absolutely. That is the "Good News" you hear about.
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Wednesday, January, 23, 2008 10:52 AM RecknHavic writes:

Scripture Here

The most widely read Book of all time would seem to be a valid source of reference, IMO.

BTW, we have "argued" moral laws in the past w/out goin to the Bible. Remember awhile back when we talked about the Nature Law? I guess our disagreement is where this inherent sense of fairness comes from.
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Wednesday, January, 23, 2008 11:44 AM Linda writes:

Hi Prince

No, I don't let the hypocracy of others determine my beliefs. That's not why I'm not a spiritual person. Just tryin to make a point, which didn't work. I was just trying to show an example of how one's belief in God, doesn't necessarily make you more moral.

You might be able to have that moment of silence in the morning, if you didn't call it 'prayer'. I think it's a great idea. We should all start our days w/ a quiet time for reflection, prayer, whatever you can do with it to feel more centered. (I hate that term, sounds so new age.) But you know what I mean.

Reck,
reg. BTW....you're right, yes, you're right. :)
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Thursday, January, 24, 2008 3:22 AM Stan @ tbsn.thesequencers.us writes:

So Reck,

I don't recall seeing you answer my question (about whether it would be OK in your mind if it were the Torah's 10 Commandments on the wall in public classrooms.)
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Thursday, January, 24, 2008 10:38 AM Prince Of Wails writes:

Torah

Yeah Reck,

How about it?
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Thursday, January, 24, 2008 6:56 PM RecknHavic writes:

Reck's Answer

I'm thinkn some type a Spanish Inquizition to purge the non-believers from our midst. Did someone say the Spanish Inquizition? No one ever expects the Spanish Inquizition ;)

Did you read my comment earlier in the thread called The Five Pillars of Islam. The answer to your question is found there.
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Friday, January, 25, 2008 3:24 AM Stan @ tbsn.thesequencers.us writes:

Reck's Non-Answer

So Reck, because of your answer (which I highly respect you for (LOL!!!! ;-) ), I must assume that you know that the Torah's 10 Commandments and the old testimate's 10 Commandments are pretty much identical.

Did you happen to know that the Torah was "released" (publishing term) *BEFORE* the old testimate?
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Friday, January, 25, 2008 9:41 AM RecknHavic writes:

Agnostics For The Ten Commandments?

Stan, you should form the AFTTC.

"All Scripture is God-breathed, and is useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness." 2Tim 3:16

BTW, when the above verse was written the NT didn't exist yet.
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Friday, January, 25, 2008 9:06 PM RecknHavic writes:

Let's Make A New Deal

Tell ya what Stan, I'll stump for the democrats this election and you lobby for the Ten Commandments being displayed in public schools.

BTW, The 10 Commandments are in three (supposed) Holy books; the Torah, the Bible and the Koran.
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Saturday, January, 26, 2008 3:08 AM Stan @ tbsn.thesequencers.us writes:

Which came first? Chicken or the Egg?

I'm guessing it was the Torah that came first. Maybe the Koran. Certainly not the Bible.

So Reck, you have no problem if the Koran's 10 Commandments were on your child's school wall?
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Saturday, January, 26, 2008 9:04 AM RecknHavic writes:

In Order

Torah, Bible and Koran.
The Torah and the Bible are the Devinely inspired word of God. The Koran incorporates much of the Scripture, however it changes and/or deletes alot of it. The Koran was written (not incl the edited parts that were taken from Bible) by one man, Muhamad. He was inspired by a demon.

If you look at most ancient religious texts, they are written by one man (Mormonism would be a modern day version); all except the Bible (Torah). In fact, the Bible was written over hundreds of years, by multiple authors (from varied backgrounds), who didn't have access to the other writers words; yet remains consistant in theme and purpose.

Oh, regardn your question, in order to be inclusive (since it's in all three), I would just list the ten w/out stating which one it was taken from.
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Saturday, January, 26, 2008 10:54 AM Linda writes:

back to moral principles

I'd like to address the "true foundations of moral principles" thing. I believe you are saying that our inherent sense of fairness comes from God because God created us with this sense, right? Well, if that's so, why do we need God in our lives NOW to address these moral principles? Can they be taught and nurtured without the mention of God? He created our conscience, but it is essentially OUR conscience, right? To do with what we decide. (Ignore, trust, follow, etc.) It may make sense to some to use "God's word" to support your teaching of morals, but do you HAVE to, to be successful? And we haven't even talked about how these morals aren't really in forms of absolutes, are they? I mean opionions vary, on what is moral.

And too, if we're gonna stay with this line of thinking, and God created man with a sense of right and wrong, he also created us to have the ability to ignore it. What's the theory as to why that is? Why would a creator go to all the trouble to create the universe, the earth, every living and nonliving thing, and then creates man...only to create him imperfectly and then punish him for being imperfect?

And why did he have to get people to do stuff for Him? Why did he appear in the burning bush and then show Moses all these ways to convince people that he was sent by God? Why couldn't he just, in the words of Captain Jean Luc Picard, "make it so"? Help me Obi Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope...
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Saturday, January, 26, 2008 2:12 PM RecknHavic writes:

Answer To Linda's Questions

Because.

Seriously, no time right now to address these questions, I will later, but you already knew that. Would like Nestor and Wailer's opinion on these as well.
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Saturday, January, 26, 2008 2:44 PM Linda writes:

yeah, what the heck...

take your time, I've got all night. But I may come up with more questions while you're out there doing...whatever it is you...do.
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Monday, January, 28, 2008 10:08 AM RecknHavic writes:

Linda's Questions

Gonna hafta pull a Sharp 12 and address this important subject w/ a blog post. Let me just say that we ALL have two natures; one that we're born w/ and one that Christ gives us.
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Monday, January, 28, 2008 11:47 AM Nestor writes:

What Christ gives us

Linda,

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:3)

I think any Christian worth their salt (or at least who's been a Christian more than a few weeks) will point out that the nature we're born with is the one Christ has given us. When we 'come around' and realize this, become a disciple, etc., is not a new nature. We are just able to more fully realize this nature. I'm just sayin'.
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Monday, January, 28, 2008 11:51 AM Nestor writes:

Incorrectly addressed

I realized that Reck made the comment I addressed, not Linda. My bad. I looked through most of the posts but missed the one referred to. I'll have to look at it more in depth later.
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Monday, January, 28, 2008 12:16 PM Nestor writes:

Linda's ?'s

To quote Veggietales (I think I've quoted this before)

"A gift that is commanded is no gift at all."

God gave us the gift of free-will. He could force us to obey, but then we would be robots. Robots are cool for a little while, but not as cool as children. What feels better, when your kids give you a hug for no reason other than they love you, or when your husband says 'go give your mother a hug.'? God wants to be wanted by us, the same way a parent wants to be wanted by their children.

As far as morals being absolute, I believe they are. We don't like them to be, because it is much easier to let things slide. But God is not that way, He can't be. Imagine if the laws of physics were not absolute. The universe would be messed up. We are going to make mistakes, and that's OK. That's why there is grace. But God's grace comes with devotion to Him.

God doesn't 'punish us for being imperfect' in the normal sense. There are consequences for sin, just as their are consequences for anything. If we give God our heart though, he will forgive us, even if we have consequences. Again, I think about disciplining children here.
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Monday, January, 28, 2008 1:42 PM Linda writes:

Nestor

I understand what you're saying using the robot analagy. But what I meant was more, why does he need Moses to convince everyone that God spoke to him and to follow him out of Egypt, when all he'd have to do is show himself to the king of Egypt himself, and say 'let the Isrealites go'?

And regarding the hug scenario....yes it feels better when they want to give me a hug, but if they don't want to, I don't doubt their "devotion" to me and there aren't consequences.

God loves his children like we parents do. But from what I can tell, it's not unconditional.
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Monday, January, 28, 2008 10:26 PM Nestor writes:

Moe

Linda,

Why did God use Moses? I think we'll have to ask either God or Moses that question someday. I don't think He could have just come down and spoken to pharaoah though. The sound of His voice would have killed pharaoah.

Sometimes it seems like there is a better way to do things, but maybe God needed it to be Moses to show us how we can do immeasurably more than we think we are capable of. Moses wasn't a good speaker, (that's what he said at least) he didn't seem to have a perfect handle on his own family and he was a murderer. There are probably a number of other logical reasons why he shouldn't have been the leader of the Israelites, but God knows exactly why He chose Moses. I think there are many lessons we can learn from Moses, and if God 'did it Himself', we wouldn't be able to learn lessons from Moses' victories and defeats.

I wonder about so many things and I try to look for answers, and sometimes I get answers and sometimes I get; 'because that's the way God wanted it.' I can usually live with that.
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Monday, January, 28, 2008 10:29 PM Nestor writes:

Unconditional

To answer this part, God's love is unconditional, and so is His justice. Even if you love your children you still have to draw a line somewhere. Even though God loves unconditionally, He has a line with His mercy that when crossed leads to judgment.
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Tuesday, January, 29, 2008 2:44 AM Stan @ tbsn.thesequencers.us writes:

So Reck,

Y aren't you *JEWISH*????

Y do you insist on placing a (sacred cow) God before the (supposed) *ONE* God (see the Torah's 1st. commandment (thou shaln't place no God before me))????

If you don't convert to Judiesm, then you *MUST* (by your (lack of) logic) consider the Koran to be just as valid as the Bible.
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Tuesday, January, 29, 2008 9:43 AM Nestor writes:

Well Why aren't YOU Jewish?

Stan,

You are physically descended from Jacob (Israel), yet you refuse even the Old Covenant. Jesus (and Christianity) is the fulfillment of the covenant given to Abramham, and the Law given to Israel through Moses.

"the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen" (Romans 9:4-5)

So those who are descended from Jacob, have a great promise from God, fulfilled by Jesus. But even though those descended from Jacob have a great promise, Paul reminds of these warnings from the prophets (Neviim): "As he says in Hosea:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.' " Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality." (Romans 9:25-28)

And no, the Koran isn't as valid as the bible. But you seem to know nothing even about the Torah besides the Ten Commandments, let alone the Tanakh (Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim) or New Testament.
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Tuesday, January, 29, 2008 9:54 AM Linda writes:

justice

Well then maybe it's the "justice" that just seems disproportionate for an almighty creator. Especially seeing it the way (that I think I understand) you do, for example when it comes to baptism. I mean, there are Christians that don't get baptized the way you believe to be right, so in your view, they don't get salvation. They're still Christians, they may have even been baptized, just not the way you've interpreted it to be the right way. So God's gonna "draw the line" with these people and not grant them salvation? Things like that trouble me.
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Tuesday, January, 29, 2008 11:13 AM Nestor writes:

Baptism

This one is tricky. I don't understand the whole of God's plan, and the whole of His mercy. God told Moses:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Exodus 33:19b)

I can only go off of what I have read and studied from scripture.

"Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

Peter is saying that forgiveness of sins comes at baptism. (specifically baptism in the name of Jesus for forgiveness of sins, which is different from John's baptism or the Jewish baptism) I know a lot of people don't believe what I believe, but I don't know how this scripture can be interpreted any other way. I do know that God looks at people's hearts, but He is also particular about obedience to His commands. I look at it like this; why chance it?
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Tuesday, January, 29, 2008 2:02 PM Linda writes:

why chance it

"A person cannot choose to sincerely believe in something, just because it's pragmatic to do so".
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Tuesday, January, 29, 2008 10:01 PM Prince Of Wails writes:

To all

I am so impressed by the amount of communication and thought that goes into all of your comments.

I am trying to get the time (this is our busy season)to do an overlay answer of my own that will try to cover all topics raised by all of you, including Reck.

Stay tuned.
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 7:18 AM RecknHavic writes:

Baptism

Still workn on post c/o 2 natures.

Nest, I know we differ on the meaning/need for baptism.

Baptism is an outward representation of an inward reality. It represents the internal washing of Christs blood on our souls.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith.."

Peace.





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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 10:54 AM Nestor writes:

Pragmatism

Linda,

I like the quote and I agree. I don't think you should believe for the sake of believing, or because 'what have I got to lose?'. God can see through that anyway. What I mean is this: If I see something in scripture that says do this, then I try to do it. I don't want to be questioned on that Day and have the conversation go like this;

God: 'Didn't you read Acts 2:38?'

Me: 'Yeah God, but you know those other scriptures that say you're saved by faith?'

God replies: 'Those scriptures are true, but my Word says, "Repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of sins." You have to have faith in Me and My Son to be baptized in that way, but you still have to be baptized for forgiveness of sins, its a total package.'

Then what am I to say? I know what the scripture says, I HAVE to obey it. If other people who were not baptized the same way I was get to heaven too, then that's wonderful! But I'm not going to leave that up to chance after I've read Acts 2:38.
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 11:50 AM RecknHavic writes:

Definition

I guess it's the definition (or meaning) of the word baptism in this verse where we disagree. I believe the baptism that is spoken about is that of the Holy Spirit. "Then I remembered what the Lord had said: John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Acts 11:16
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 12:05 PM RecknHavic writes:

The Gospel

The Gospel is the death, burial and ressuection of Christ.
1Cor 15:1-4 "Now brothers, I want to remind you of the Gospel I preached to you, which you recieved and on which you have taken your stand. By this Gospel you are saved...that Christ died for our sins according to the Scripture, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day..."

Again Paul in his letter to the Church at Corinth. 1Cor 1:14-17 "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one can say you were baptized in my name...For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach thr Gospel..."

If Baptism were required for salvation I imagine Paul would have clarified this here.
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 12:20 PM RecknHavic writes:

The Holy Spirit

Nest, I think we can agree that the unsaved do not have the Holy Spirit living w/in them. Yes?

Acts 10:44-46 "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. And Peter said, Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have. So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ..."

They had recieved the Holy Spirit BEFORE baptism. Baptism is a NT sacrament, just as circumcision was an OT sacrament. You see, each covenant has it's signs. We don't (as Christians) celebrate Passover, we do however take Communion. And just as OT sacraments didn't gaurentee salvation, neither do NT ones.

"Abram believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness." Gen 15:6
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 3:42 PM Linda writes:

more als

Not addressed to anyone inparticular...

Reg. morals being absolute, and the idea of "obeying" all scripture:
I believe the Bible say you shouldn't 'spare the rod'with your kids. (You'll forgive that I don't know where to find this to quote it properly.) What if you don't think it's moral to spank/hit your kids? (yes, that again...but I think it's a fair example.) Should you "obey" the scripture? I think it pretty much says that if you don't, you're not raising your kids properly. So if you don't want to, you should hit your children anyway? This doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't think I would be willing to obey a book, regardless of who wrote it. I need to make some judgements for myself. I realize where you feel this will ultimately land me, but I've my doubts about that as well.
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 4:53 PM Nestor writes:

Spanking

This is how I feel. I believe almost all kids need to be spanked. I haven't seen a kid that didn't need to be spanked if only very rarely. But, if your kids react to other forms of discipline then that's fine. I think you need to utilize whatever form of discipline that gets through to your kids.

I don't solely use spanking, but it is definitely in my arsenal. My son who is 8 rarely gets spankings now because I can reason with him. My daughter gets way more because it is hard to reason with a 2 year old. She is super smart though, so that means she will either continue to get lots of spankings (for trying to get away with things) or she will get less very soon as she realizes that spankings hurt and as she says; 'I don't like that!'.
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 5:35 PM Prince Of Wails writes:

Baptism and spanking

How deep was the river when John baptised Jesus?
If it wan't enough to immerse, then why do some religions require immersion?

Spanking was part of my arsenal, even after the age of reason. The problem with never using corporal punishment, was I found that with other means I was never consistent or would cave in and relent some part of the sentence.

Still working on a larger comment.
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 7:07 PM Nestor writes:

Immersion

The reason for the requirement of immersion by many Christians is that baptism (and the Greek word associated with it) means immersion. In Greek there are separate words that mean pouring and sprinkling. Baptizo, Baptimsa (I think these are the different forms in Greek, I might have misspelled slightly) can only mean immersion, not sprinkling or pouring. About Jesus' baptism, It was certainly immersion. The Jordan river had to be parted for Joshua and the Israelites to cross, I'm sure it was deep enough. Many people are immersed in bath tubs, I was immersed in a horse trough. I think the Jordan would do.
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 8:47 PM Linda writes:

obeying scripture, or not

I guess you answered my "obeying scripture" question. So you're saying we don't have to obey scripture in this case, then. Since we can use whatever form of discipline that works for our kids? The fact that you think almost all kids "need" to be spanked is your judgement call. But everyone has a different opinion on that, so this (and other) moral judgements are not absolute in my eyes.
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 8:49 PM Linda writes:

obeying scripture, or not

I guess you answered my "obeying scripture" question. So you're saying we don't have to obey scripture in this case, then. Since we can use whatever form of discipline that works for our kids? The fact that you think almost all kids "need" to be spanked is your judgement call. But everyone has a different opinion on that, so this (and other) moral judgements are not absolute in my eyes.

Having trouble posting, so sorry if I double up here....
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 9:21 PM Linda writes:

obeying scripture, or not

I guess you answered my "obeying scripture" question. So you're saying we don't have to obey scripture in this case, then. Since we can use whatever form of discipline that works for our kids? The fact that you think almost all kids "need" to be spanked is your judgement call. But everyone has a different opinion on that, so this (and other) moral judgements are not absolute in my eyes.

Having trouble posting, so sorry if I double up here....
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 9:23 PM Linda writes:

wow

Sorry bout that.
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 10:21 PM RecknHavic writes:

Sparin The Rod

This refers to discipling your child, whether it's spankn or whatever. If you don't correct/discipline your kids when it's needed you're not doin your job as a parent. On this we all agree.

Another oft quoted piece of the Bible is when Jesus said we should turn the other cheek. Does this mean that if someone slaps you, you should offer the other side of your face? Absolutly not. If someone insults you, speaks about you behind your back, ect, a Christian is not to retaliate in like manner.

Honestly, to pull a part of a verse from the Scripture, not read it in its context, and then say you doubt its validity (or the validity of the Bible for that matter) seems at best argumentative, at worst obtuse.
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 10:44 PM RecknHavic writes:

The Jordan

The Jordan was at flood stage when Joshua led the Israelites in their conquest of Jericho (Jos 4:18). The Bible doesn't say what the water level was when Jesus was baptized. BTW, it was customary for Rabbi's to be baptized in Jesus' day.

I have a question. If baptism cleanses us from sin, why did Jesus need to be baptized?

Could it be that that moment in the Jordan was actually the Lord revealing the three parts of the Godhead? You have Jesus (the Son), A voice from heaven (the Father), and the Spirit of God descending like a dove (the Holy Spirit).
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Wednesday, January, 30, 2008 11:02 PM Linda writes:

Reck

Hey, I'm just trying to ask questions to people who know it well. But that's not workin out because I keep getting called out on not "understanding it in context". I don't set out to be argumentative or obtuse, but since I'm coming off that way I won't try to discuss scripture anymore.
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Thursday, January, 31, 2008 12:10 AM Nestor writes:

Jesus' Baptism

John at first refused to baptize Jesus, but Jesus insisted;

"Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water." (Matthew 3:15-16a)

What I see here is Jesus being a good leader. Every good leader I've ever followed would not make his subordinates do something he was not willing to do. Jesus, in classic Jesus fashion, was willing to do whatever it took to be obedient to scripture, the law and what was asked of him.

Is this baptism the same as Acts 2:38? No. This is John's baptism. The baptism in Acts 2:38 came after the end of the old covenant, and just after the Spirit was poured out on the believers of Israel. In Acts 11, the Gentiles were baptized with the Spirit as well. This is why Peter is able to baptize for the forgiveness of sins.

Baptism of Repentance (from John) Baptism with the Spirit (from Jesus) Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Three baptisms. The Spirit was given to Israel first. They then could be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Then the Spirit came upon the Gentiles at which point they could be forgiven of sins as well.

I need to do more study on this, and I didn't intend to get into all of this, but it just came to me. I'll do more study, and I'll get some input from people wiser than me. But that's what I got for now.
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Thursday, January, 31, 2008 12:20 AM RecknHavic writes:

Baptism In General

Agreed. More research is needed for both of us. Interestn topic tho, thanks for your input.
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Thursday, January, 31, 2008 12:30 AM RecknHavic writes:

Obtruse

That's how I spelled it on my first try. Guess that makes me the more obtuse one.

Sorry.
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Thursday, January, 31, 2008 12:30 AM Linda writes:

Reck

I'm sorry if I ticked you off. I guess I just like to try to make an occasional point of my own on the subject, and it came off btchy.
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Thursday, January, 31, 2008 3:29 AM Stan @ tbsn.thesequencers.us writes:

PING: Wailer

What is it with all these one post TownHall blogs?

My friend, don't you have anything more to say????
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Thursday, January, 31, 2008 10:27 AM Prince Of Wails writes:

One Post Blogs

Stan,

I work on the computer all day long (10+ hrs per day). I refuse to be "connected" @ home. The result is staying at the office past 7 or 8 pm. after starting around 7 am.

My business is school related and from now until August, I am too busy during the day to be doing what I am doing right now. This is our make it or break it season.

Thanks for your thoughts.

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