THE RESPONSIBILITY OF LIBERTY

I agree with your conclusion, but what is the source of righteousness? Before righteousness must come the knowledge of unrighteousness.

A like-minded brother is like salve to the soul. Your bio is a favorite text. Your blog name and pen name say more about you. If you are so inclined, would you tell me more?

Has it been a year?

I agree more than ever with your conclusion, and you indeed have proved to be salve for the soul. Thank you for much encouragement and much support.

There are hard implications when we say that their is essential unity among those born of God. So what of those who profess Christ and with whom we have no essential unity on the doctrines of Christ? What do you think falls in the category of essential doctrines for unity to exist? or do you see it as essential agreement with the Scriptures as the word of God and a heart attitude of submission to its teaching?

I am glad that you consider me a help and not a hinderance. There are times when I wonder what many must think.
It is good to be esteemed, but I am only what I am by the grace of God. I would certainly be nothing with out Him.

Well, you asked, so here goes:

I believe our guidance should come from the Holy Ghost (John 14:26, 16:13). Maybe I look at things differently from most folks, I don't know. There are alot of people today that are "Christian" but have no clue about Christ, and what salvation is really all about. Their conscience seemingly has yet to be purged from dead works (Heb 9:14), else why would they yet live in them?

All I can do is testify of what I have seen and experienced. When I was saved, I knew a change had taken place; I felt love in my heart (esp for the brethern), I felt peace,forgiveness, and cleanliness. I felt the guidance of the Comforter that Jesus talks about, when He said, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.(John 14:26).
As a matter of fact, the one who had preached that night I was saved, prophesied that the "Word would come alive to me" among other things.

Is it those that profess Christ that are Christians or is it those are approved of God? (2 Cor 10:17-18, Matt 7:20-23); and we know that not all that profess are approved.

Are the questions that we sometimes seek unity on really essentials? I believe Paul outlined the essentials of sound doctrine in Titus 2; can you imagine a Church that could come together if only on those verses? What a glorious place it would be to worship! If we can't do that which is least, then why add more and consider it essential?
I also believe those things will follow if a man is really saved. I believe the essentials of sound doctrine also to be the "foundation" of "Jesus Christ and Him crucified" (1 Cor 2), for without that foundation (2 Cor 3:11), who can build anything that will stand the test?
When a man develops that ONGOING PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God, through Christ, the "unction" will reign in the decision making process (not my will but thy will), making us "error free".

http://wordsfromthebook.blogtownhall.com/2009/02/17/the_tru e_believer%e2%80%99s_guarantee_against_error.thtml

Now I will never profess to know all that there is to be known about God and His plan; this is where I leave off. Do I need to know some things that minister questions, or will God reveal to me what I must know to accomplish His will? (Phil 3:15; Ps 138:8). And if He'll reveal His will for me to me, then why not to every man what that man must know?

We will never be in total agreement in all things with everyone, because the flesh will always be present somewhere and in the heart of someone. Therefore I believe we must avoid those things that cause a brother to stumble (Rom 14:21-22), whether it be elements of our liberty or questions that minister strife (2 Tim 2:14).
I would not want to be guilty of an offence against a "little one" (Luke 17: 1-2), when trying to preach a doctrine when what was really needed was the edification of the necessary personal relationship with Christ.

I hope this unlearned opinion helps.

Thank you dear brother. Let us press on in the fear of God, rather than of men.

I agree that there is weakness because I know what it is to be weak, but our confidence is in One who has all authority and all knowledge. We are told to petition Him for wisdom and strength.

A dear pastor has counseled me over my confusion on the current state of the church from John 15. Is this a dialog you would engage in with me? I am more in the mode of asking what you think, rather than telling what I think.

Sure, I don't mind a dialogue on John 15. Are you averse to my opinion on the work of the Spirit in the life of the believer?
I was wondering if that is somehow inconsistent with the Reformed viewpoint?

What did you think of the opinions I gave you on essential unity and sound doctrine?

I liked what you had to say about unction. This subject is another where I am ignorant. There is nothing in your doctrine that I can point to as giving me a problem. Reformed to me is basically a heart submitted to the authority of Scripture and a willingness to conform your thinking to what it says rather than find explanations for why it doesn’t mean what it says. I use Reformed and Biblical to mean the same thing.

I feel free to question you if necessary. I want you to feel the same way. I would appreciate your criticisms when you have them. I hope by now I have won your confidence that this will not damage our relationship. Doesn’t it say somewhere that iron sharpens iron?

I have not studied John 15 about the vine and the branches. I want to know what other passages are considered parallel in Christ’s doctrine here and what apostolic testimony could be applied to it. Is there a systematic treatment of this doctrine? Is there OT language that Christ is appealing too?

When I asked if you were a grace man, I was referring to the doctrines of grace. From your writings it became apparent that you held to the doctrines, but were unfamiliar with the term. This made a great impression on me, because it testified that God had revealed truth to you independent of other men. That is why I would hear you regardless of what other men may think.

I do feel confident that we can discuss matters we may question each other on.

My method has always been to differentiate between discussion and argument on what we'll call the non-essentials. I view discussion as just that; and I generally refuse to argue the NE, and I'll tell you why: they're non-essentials. I believe that God will reveal (1 John 2:27) to every man who is diligent, what that man needs to be saved, and what he needs to do to be pleasing in God's sight. And when God does, that man will know the voice of the Master (John 10:27), and will know what God wants Him to do (IS 30:21).
This is a personal spiritual relationship, mirroring the carnal marriage relationship we have in the flesh. (That is why James can call us adulterers if we have friendship with the world (James 4:4)). I am so familiar with my wife, that I generally know what and how she thinks, and generally how she will react. Now, spiritually do we need someone between us and the bridegroom? Only if we don't have the Spirit.

As for the Vine and the branches, I believe this doctrine is borne out in various instances. For example Jesus tells us:

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

and the apostles:

29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

These instances, among others, illustrate the necessity of abiding in the vine:

"...for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


As for OT references, off the top of my head, I would say that the relationship of the Jew to God, through the priest would mirror the work of Jesus the Vine, in the NT (Heb 2:17). The people could not approach God, except through the High Priest, and neither can we now, except through the Vine, Jesus Christ. I think that is about as systematic as you can get.

The sad state of the modern church is apparent. Evidently, they have left off the Vine, the Word of God, and are going about to bear fruit without the Vine. How can this be? A branch removed from a Vine or tree will wither and die, certainly bearing no fruit at all. Are the churches dying or bearing fruit?

I will give you an electrical analogy; I don't know if I've heard this or if God gave it to me.
Electrically speaking, we have a power source and loads. What is needed is the means to move the power to the load. Jesus is that circuit, providing the conduit for the Power of God to move between the Source and the believer. This power (John 15:26) is the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, and the Unction (Acts 1:8;John 14:26; 1 John 2:20) and we are able to recieve it because of the work that Jesus did in "completing the circuit" (John 16:28).

I hope this helps; if not we can try again.

Thank you for input.

Paul told the Ephesians that his conscience was clear toward them because he had preached the whole counsel of God. What parts are NE?

How does God prune the fruit bearing branches and remove the dead wood? Do you think the sower parable and the wheat and tares are parallels to this teaching? How does God purify the church? That is the question I am pursuing. John 15 tells me that He will.

I have to be honest, I thought you would comment on the points of my post. When you bypass the points I attempt to make, I wonder if perhaps there is a problem. I know the points that I make are simple and unlearned, but sometimes this is where the greatest Truth is to be found:

Acts 4:13
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.


Would you be referencing Acts 20:27 for Paul's statement of declaring the whole counsel?

As for the NE, I make reference to the essentials- Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I attempted to make clear my view that with THIS foundation:

" God will reveal (1 John 2:27; Rom 14:4) to every man who is diligent, what that man needs to be saved, and what he needs to do to be pleasing in God's sight. And when God does, that man will know the voice of the Master (John 10:27), and will know what God wants Him to do (IS 30:21). "-CofS

As for other's definition of NE, I don't know.

Purifying the Church. When I read this, I immediately thought of the parable of the talents (Matt 25:30). As to the effect of persecution, it is ordained that we suffer, if we would reign with Him (2 Tim 2:12, Rom 8:17, 2 Cor 1:7). I believe it will worsen in the tribulation period, as He said He would shorten the days (Matt 24:21,22). The parable of the wheat and the tares would seem to come into play here (Matt 7:21-23). According to this parable, can WE "purify" the Church?

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I still believe that if we're founded upon the Rock, we'll build a solid building that will withstand the storm.

Yes, the reference was Acts 20:27, but the point is that Paul did not spare the doctrine. The Christian life depends on doctrine. That's why he warns against the false teachers.

The talents & sower parables do emphasize fruit bearing. This is the same message of John 15. The unfruitful branches are like the unfruitful servant. He is called wicked and slothful. His end is outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The unfruitful branches are ‘in’ the vine as if they are part of the visible church. The tares look like wheat. The Father is said to remove the unfruitful branches. I see this as keeping the church pure before the harvest at the end of time. Sound doctrine & discipline is the way we participate. The world does its part with persecution.

Your reference to Revelation I think is key to an understanding of the way Christ rules the nations. The church is salt and light; the nations hate the light and persecute the church; Christ protects His church. From history we see the anti-Christian state and a harlot church persecuting the bride. Do you see these in Revelation?

What do you think of this from a couple of days ago?

" God will reveal (1 John 2:27; Rom 14:4) to every man who is diligent, what that man needs to be saved (Heb 7:25), and what he needs to do to be pleasing in God's sight (Jude 24). And when God does, that man will know the voice of the Master (John 10:27), and will know what God wants Him to do (IS 30:21). "-CofS

Check the ref and tell me what you think.

OK, will do.

I have a request of you. My thoughts are coming together on the use of John 15 and the church. I would like to give you an outline for your critcisms.

What you said about the tares was helpful. Yes, we as individuals are not to pluck them, but what of church discipline? Can you give me your view of this parable? How about the Lord's use of the 'field is the world'?

In addition to the talents I have added the barren fig tree.

First Isaiah 30:18-26 is what I call gospel in OT language; it must be interpreted in the context of the New Covenant, where God writes the law on the heart. John 10 says that the sheep will hear the voice of their shepherd. (IMO) we hear Him through the Spirit making the Word come alive. I see this as consistent with the 1 John 2 anointing and abiding.

Now with regard to Romans 14, this passage I think does deal with NE things. We are always to forego our liberty for the sake of the other. Self denial always trumps liberty where the possibility of offense to a brother exists.

Now, I am one to preach the NC blessing that all shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest. But we are also told that Christ gives gifts to His church, including preachers and teachers.

Bunyan put the faithful pastor as the first thing to learn in Interpreter’s House. Yes, we have new life and new capacities to see what before was hidden from us, but there is no substitute for godly counsel in the word to set us on the right path, and help keep us from veering out of the way.

From 2 Peter 1 there is faith, repentance and the increase of knowledge that are the first things of godliness, kindness and love.

I know that some believers say that they hear the voice of God. Who am I to dispute with them? What I have written here is the normal means of grace whereby we hear Him.

In the parables of Matt 13, ultimatley there is a judgement in the end, where the ..."angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just..."(Matt 13:49). It is evident that the children of the Kingdom will always have the children of the enemy in their midst until the end, and so it seems to be ordained.

Since we're considering "purifying the Church", when I think of "church dicipline" I think of Gal 5:24-Gal 6:6. Could the churches today have so much discipline that God is lacking? Is it possible that we have "disciplined" the liberty of the Spirit from the church house? Could it be today, that the "discipline" is more concerned about keeping the focus on the organization than on the Saviour?
Churches today, remind me of an underpowered vehicle; a lot of car and just enough available horsepower to keep it from rolling backward. It is choked down with gadgets and contraptions, robbing it of the power it should have, if not for the liberty (power)stealing regulatory guidelines from organization headquarters. They are like houses that eventually collapse from thier own weight.
Now conventional wisdom is that the bigger the church, the more membership, etc, the more effective. But if that were so, why would we be discussing a need to purify?

Sorry for the delay, I've been occupied. I'll try to comment more on your last post this weekend.

I am talking about Biblical church disciple like Matthew 18 & 1 Corinthians 5. This is the God ordained way for the church to purify itself. It is rarely practiced anymore. The church rolls are full of professors and those that never attend. Open sin in the membership is not dealt with and left unresolved. People float from church to church with no accounting. This began with a breakdown in the doctrine of the leadership.

Are you talking about associational stuff imposed on the local church?

I have some time to write.

I've made some feeble attempts to try to explain my opinions. My point concerning "church purification" is that if the focus of the church was more on connecting with God, then less purification would be necessary. "Connecting" is probably a poor choice of words for what I am trying to say; I just know that when a man truly finds God, sin falls away to be replaced by new inclinations of love (and all that means). This connection must be made through the Spirit, and not just with words. Believers had the "Word" in the form of the law, and it was insufficient for the task.

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

I always say that you "can beat someone over the head all day with the Word, but until the Spirit writes (or reveals)it in a man's heart, nothing will be gained but my sore arm and your sore head."

I am convinced that is the problem of today's church. All the motions may seem right, but something is missing. There is no change to the heart; hearts are not right, and the Spirit is not in control, as He ought to be. Sadly, I believe most don't even realize it. Jesus even faced this in His day:

Matt 15:
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Contrast this with John 4:
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

David also recognized this in Ps 51:11-12.

I am going to family camp this weekend, so will be away for awhile.

I think you are saying the same thing I am trying to say about the necessity of regeneration by the Spirit. We must be born again to see the kingdom. How can we enter in and enjoy its blessings unless we can see it?

Take care my friend. Pray for us. My youngest son is beginning to ask questions as if the Spirit is dealing with his heart.