Our Bodies, Ourselves

but I sense that the debate is long past the point of reason. The health care bill is about surrendering our individual liberty to the collective, and opening every citizen to the full corcive powers of an unrestrained government.

Whose individual liberty? What liberty is the 1/4 of all Americans who either have no insurance or are underinsured giving up. I know David tried to cut down those numbers but before that can be analyzed, the original data has to be seen. And no one whom I have asked have provided the original data.

In addition, what liberty have the Americans who have gone bankrupt because of medical bills, many of whom had insurance, giving up.

My problem with the conservative position is that they pit liberty vs equality. But liberty - equality = privilege. So the real issue is whether the haves will surrender their health care privileges so as to share with the have nots.

In addition, what coercion do we see in the democracies that have universal health care

Mr. Caday, you would have us all living on Animal Farm. Liberty means the freedom to fail. That is also called adulthood. I don't mean to be impolite, but people of your opinion want to exercise their Christian compassion with other people's money. But coerced charity is no longer charity. It's pillage.

When failure means death, then your liberty brings social darwinism. Social Darwinism was not practiced by Israel and Israel was judged when it did not take care of those in need. And you know what Jesus said to those who did not take care of those in need from the parable of the sheep and the goats.

Certainly socialism does not automatically bring liberty because we have seen totalitarian regimes. But presently, we see international corporations take control of the resources of individual countries so that despite elections, the people of the land have no control over, no liberty to direct how their resources will be used.

BTW, was Israel's tithe pillage when it was used to feed the hungry. Did Jesus not know that Rome used part of its tax money on programs to help the poor when he said to pay taxes to Caesar?

David, our real difference here is that of reductionism. While some say that all hinges on individual responsibility and morality, others say that you have multiple responsibilities of individual and social obligations.

In addition, if the government is to only represent those who are self-sufficient, the the poor, even the working poor, can count on no help or representation. This makes money determine whether one is an equal in society or one is less equal than others.

Where do I begin? My Caday, you are confused on so many points, I simply do not have time to addresses them all.

Suffice it to say that, biblically, responsibility for people begins with responsibility for oneself (vs the sluggard and the lazy widow), but also with the family. BEYOND THAT, the church has a responsibility for suffering believers. Where there is genuine need, people have responsibility for one another in the Lord, but also as neighbors.

It is clear from Romans 13:1-7 and I Peter 2:14 that government's charge is to restrain and punish evil and to praise what is good. Government does not provide welfare. It praises and holds up as examples those in network of civil society relationships who provide for the welfare of those who are helplessly in need.

But I think you have heard all this before.

But have you studied Andy Williams in the original Greek?

I have no confusion. The Scriptures speak multiple times of the role of government that include Romans 13 and I Peter 2 but are not limited to those passages. In the theonomy of the OT, the tithe was used to feed the hungry (Deut 14). And, what I said before that Jesus commanded his followers to pay taxes to a Roman gov't that ran programs to help the poor.

There is Biblical precedent for gov't to help the poor while at the same time, the is no prohibition to the gov't forbidding from helping the poor. This is why I sense that those Christians who say that helping the poor is not a concern of the gov't might be borrowing more from conservative politics than conservative Christian theology.

Finally, there is a reductionism practiced by some that all responsibility is personal responsibility. That is not supported by the Scriptures. For example James 5:1-6 charges the Rich for their abuse of their laborers. Did you know that many of the poor are the working poor? And did you know that many of the poor do not have job opportunities because some of the rich move jobs overseas to sweatshop factories in order to optimize profits.