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Comment on: "one eighty"

Dem "Strategery" is Working

125 Comments

It goes to show...

...the difference between the two parties: Their standards and willingness to uphold them.

Great thoughts, Sheila

And of course, for the Dems, they have the MSM in their hip pockets, an unoffial wing of the Dem party.

Exactly why they want to re-enact the (un)Fairness Doctrine, but interestingly enough only for talk radio.

What a coincidence! Talk radio is dominated by the Right!

Sheila

And, let's not forget dingy harry's shady land deal.

How about Abscam Murtha? Look what a big wig he is after being caught on tape telling Arabs he could be interested in the future for taking bribes.

Sandy Burglar stealing classified documents, an act of treason.

John Kerry, dealing with the N.Vietnamese while still in uniform. Another act of treason.

Hiccup Teddy Kennedy killing a girl and never being charged.

The list is endless but who cares. They are dumbocraps. Socialists who are loved by the left wing press. No one wants to hold any of them accountable. You would think they were saints.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for RedNanny to drain the swamp. Maybe she could let her illegals who work her vineyards off one day so they can help drain that old swamp.

Jimmy :-)

No kidding...the stuff the dems get away with is sick. I wonder if any of the cheats will ever be held accountable...

Brian

Thanks...

Yeah, it seems as long as the dems have the MSM to carry their water for them, they'll get away with anything.

As long as they keep Gonzales busy with this non-issue of the firings, they can keep their butooskeys covered...LOL

Google our illustrious Left Coast Sen. Di Fi, and you'll find some interesting conflicts of interest she's getting away with...worth millions in her pocket...

Pep

Yeah, and what about Obama's shady land deal? He got NO scrutiny on that one!

And Pep

Picture any Repub in Sandy Bergler's position...well, I guess that's a hard one to picture...hmmm, let me think... who on the right could have gotten away with hiding classified documents stolen from the Library of Congress, pertaining to an investigation, and not be rotting in jail right now?


And imagine, Pep

just for an istance, the brother of a Republican president, say...Jeb, for instance, having done what ol' Uncle Teddy did...

Whattaya wanna bet he wouldn't be in the Senate of the United States for 30 years...

As Larry Elder says on the radio mike..."is this thing on"?...

Sheila

The reason the Dems get off is because they don't bite.

You're spot on, the Right gets played by the media...I wish it was just the Left. Unfortunately both sides come after the GOP...the MSM claim to do so because the Right are a bunch of self-righteous bigots that they have to stop--and the RINO media excuse their lack of loyalty with accusations that the GOP politicians are not "real" conservatives and that the GOP is just a party.

The RINOs (Republican In Name Only) claims to be the "base" and speak for everyone under the GOP tent. Geez, even Libertarian "Liberty" has been trying to claim that Ron Paul is the only true conservative! (Of course, he doesn't explain why Ron Paul would WANT to represent a party that only has one true member).

Doc

It's going to take a long long time for the MSM to decay. They still get 6 million viewers for Couric vs. 2 mil for FoxNews.

Google Feinstein?

Do I hafta?

I don't wanna!

I just ate and want to keep it down!

Sanity

Yeah...it'a amazing...the GOP gets hit from both sides...this is getting really irritating!

And then there's Carter...saying Bush is the worst president in history! How does he get away with THAT? The media gives him credibility, that's how...

The loser ex- dem presidents,Carter and Clinton, and VP Green AL, run around the globe criticizing Bush...how classy. They are nothing but traitors in my book. How do they get away with it? The media gives them cred...

Dr. Steech

You have a point about the MSM losing cred with lots of people...but as we saw in the last election, they still pack a punch.

Remember Foley? The dems set him up, and used him to get to the base...we are SO darn gullible. We couldn't vote for his replacement, because we had to pull the lever for Foley (who was gone) to get our guy in...so we just let the bad guys win, instead of standing up for our side, and showing the dems...where's my advil?...

Dave

Yeah, the MSM will always hold sway on the uninformed, I'm afraid...but the worse scenario would be the dems grabbing total power in 08.

If that happens, they will do everything to marginalize the opposition...I couldn't help think the dems would love to follow Putin's example... I read that he's using the KGB version of the "fairness doctrine" over in Russia, and people are bailing from the news services...

Is that the future for America if we let the demsocialists win?

Brian

Ha! I know, I know, it's like eating rotten tomatoes...sorry to give you a stomach ache...LOL

We need McClintock in her Senate seat...that would soothe the ol' tum tum...:)

Sheila

Let any repub do what Sandy Burglar did and that guy would have hung. No doubt in my mind. Look at the public crucifixion of Libby, for nothing other than forgetting.

Stealing classified docs? Ha! I would imagine the dimbulbs would want a public hanging on that one and the MSM who is so against "horrors" like Saddam being hung shown, would blast the hanging every 20 minutes on their lamestream news shows.

The MSM would then have pundit after pundit come on their talk shows and endlessly engage in rhetoric on how "corrupt" the repubs are blah, blah, blah. Of course there would be no opposing view point because that is not allowed. No repubs would be welcome to debate the socialists.

Instead the MSM might have McCain on so he could join in on the bashing, although he would deplore the public hanging because he doesn't like torture.

Ha! Pep

You are a perfect analyst of the modern day "American Socialist News Networks"...good job! LOL

Sheila & Pep

What I find annoying and dangerous is how they are going after everyone in the Bush's administration.

And Ingraham herself has said that Gonzales should step down...it surely doesn't help when the RINO press once AGAIN help their Liberal counterparts.

Sanity

that's the "strategery" of the left...keep on the attack, keep Gonzales on the defense, and keep him from investigating THEM, because he's too busy defending himself, on a bogus issue!

Look at all the people on the dem commitees he should be investigating...

They know if they can ride this out until 08 if they win the WH, and keep the majority, investigations will never see the light of day, and they can continue their corrupt activity...with NO prob...

I'm sending Laura I an email...I'm so tired of her rants!

No he should stay

If Gonzales does step down the Dems will make a circus out of the confirmation hearings.

Good post, yes the MSM is in the pocket of the Dems [liberal/socialists] talk radio is conservative that's why they want to get the fairness doctrine back.

No matter what happens on the left side the MSM never goes after them the way it does the right, we know this and have seen it, that's why we can't let the Fairness Doctrine come back, ever.

Damn right on McClintock

In every sense of the word "right".

He's great. I voted for him over the Givernator in the first go-around (BTW, Givernator wasn't a typo......... think about it).

Yeah, Jevica

We need to let the WH know we want Gonzales to stay...I can't believe we already have some spineless repubs calling for him to step down...where are the guts to stand up against the demsocialists?

As to the MSM, they are on the attack against Bush and the GOP, and will not stop until 08, and if their party wins, they will have gotten the job done for their side...they will know they truly have the power to make or brake a party...

With the insane world we face out there, having the cut and run party in charge will not be a good thing...

And Jev

As you said somewhere on TH, you're right to say Bush is probably sorry he supported Specter. What an absolute turncoat! He must love getting kuddos from the libs...he's helping them with their cause...

BrianR

McClintock is a great guy...hey I like it that you are giving me heads up when you don't do a typo...LOL

I have been known to do quite a few myself, and if I don't check carefully, I could be saying something I'd prefer not to...now THAT's embarrassing...:)

Hah, my posts have turned into

Typo City, lately.

I seem to have developed dyslexia in my dotage.

Well, Brian...:)

Just be glad I double checked my potential typos before I posted, because I noticed I had left the "p" out of "hope"...and in these days of the Imus fiasco, you don't want ot make that mistake...YIKES! LOL

Brian LOL

The typo police could be watching...:)

Btw, Carter is such a loser...can you believe he's out there helping the enemy again...wish he would go back to his peanut farm...:)what is it with the endless egos of these loser ex-dem presidents who were a disater while in office, criticizing the sitting president...I guess this is what we can expect from the classless egomaniac leftists from now on.

If the dems win in 08, you might as well have Jimma back in the WH...


Lucky for me

I dont maike typos!

Scottie LOL

It's a goot thing...:)

Great point!

I hadn't thought of the angle of tying up Gonzales and Bush with investigations so Gonzales can't investigate them...

It's pretty amazing that everyone is now attacking Bush, liberals and conservatives, as Sanity said. Go figure.

BTW, I have a pretty controversial blog up on the immigration bill.

I would personally

Do what I could to campaign in my area if McClintock challenged Feinstein for her seat. In a way, I would have preferred him to challenge Boxer, though. I think she may be more vulnerable.

Sandra

Hey, I'm heading over to your place!

Wil

Yeah, I would too...Boxer is such a creep. She is extremely arrogant, and now that she has the power, even more so...

Hope you got your immigration blog up! I'm looking forward to your take...:)

I hadn't thought

of that angle, the Dems investigating Gonzales and everything Bush, so Gonzales won't have time to investigate them.

Pretty brilliant of you for figuring that out!

Finally!

I've been trying to comment for a couple of days now.

Sandra

The dems are so pathetic. Why do we put up with their garbage?

I hope we do our job in 08 and throw the bumbs out!

Glad you made it to my place after all the attempts...:)

Hey Sandra

Must be a conspiracy...LOL

BrianR;

puttyng the 'sexy' back in 'Dyslexia'. =)

Sheila: Good points. We have a bunch of limpnoodles in the senate who are content not making waves, and at the same time, a bunch of unscrupulous loudmouths who are content pushing the latest line. If the GOP in the senate had drawn a line in the sand in FLA, they'd be in CA by now, 'ok then, cross THIS one'.

Sad to say it, but right now, we choose between 'slick' and 'tacky'. Hopefully, people will wake up.

puttyng?

with a li'l 'sexy' of my own, for balance. ;o)

Carter! Another lunch-heaver

A walking advertisement for Planned Parenthood, the poster boy for the upside of abortions.

J-Dawg

"Dyslexia"...Brian king of "sexy"...LOL

Yeah, we need a super majority of solid conservatives alected in a landslide accross the country...

This country needs an overhall in DC, and the demsocialists need to be put out on their ear...

I am mad as heck and not going to take it anymore!!!

J-Dawg

uh oh...your typoing seems to be rubbing off...I should have said "elected"...;0)

Brian LOL

Carter...another "lunch heaver"...thanks a lot, Brian...I'm eating lunch...could you please avoid making your "heaving" comments at meal time?...grabbing a barf bag....;0(

LOL, Sheila

I saw your comment at my place. Of course, I don't have a clue what it says, as it's entirely in Spanish.

Hey, they haven't totally taken over yet, y'know!

I like McClintock too

(I don't mean Jessica, although her dresses are alright).

Anyway, hey -- isn't being somewhat criminal and shady a prerequisite for gaining political support on the left? Don't they LO-O-O-O-VE murderers, despots, thieves, pedophiles and free speech squelchers??

Por ejemplo: Castro, Che, Mumia Abu Jamal, Je$$e, $harpton, CAIR, Arafat... uh, not to mention both Clintons and the current Dems already mentioned by others above.

Lacking in genuine morals or ethics themselves, they assume those across the aisle are also that way. But being such wise rulers who are going to save the world, the libs are above the law.

Hey Brian

I thought like Hillary, you were multi-lingual! LOL

Translation:

To all ILLEGALS: Good bye!

Those who are coming here, come through the front door! LEGALLY!

Jimma

You're persona non grata...LOL

Sheila: Thanks for the translation

I am bi-lingual; French, not Spanish!

Philosoph did a translation, too, at my place.

Excellent sentiment!



Squiddy!

MCClintock...not Jessica...Ha!

A little sarcasm there I see regarding the demsocialists...LOL

Not warranted at all...

RIGHT!...:0)

They are all slugs.

Cyne

Yesterdaaaay...

All my troubles seemed so faaar awaaay,

Now they look like they are here to staaay,

Oh I believe in yesterdaaay! LOL

And, Cyne


Yesterdaay,

All my troubles seemed so far awaaay

Now I need a place to hide awaaay,

Oh I believe in yesterdaaay!

Why he had to go,I don't knoooow,

He didn't saaay!

Now there's something wrong,

I belong to yesterdaaaaaaay!


Feel better, now? LOL

Brian

You're welcome...:0)

No hablas espanol?...

Not good!...LOL

Sheila: Hah! Tell me about it

If this stupid amnesty bill passes, I guess I'll have to go out and learn.

Why, oh why did I learn French? That's been about as useful as a sixth toe.

Brian LOL

A sixth toe...:)

As far as I'm concerned, the dems might as well be speaking French for all the good they are doing this country with their endless investigations, and their timetables for the war on terror, giving the enemy talking points and encouraging their cause...

They're about as useful as a six toe, when it comes to the survival of our nation...if they are the future if this country, our country has no future.

America is in a big mess.

Yeah, Sheila, you're right.

That's why the most important lesson to learn right now is that compromising hasn't been working.

Sheila

I'm trying to find out about someone who left a comment on one of my posts name of " jessicalange"

Jev

Saw your post at Sandra's, went to your place and ripped Jessica a new one.

She's the actress from King Kong. She uses her real name.

Welcome to the Internet, Jessica, the TRUE democracy, where no form of royalty is recognized!

Hahahaha!

BrianR

I found that my high school and college French came in handy at times in Vietnam, especially with the old-timers who served in the Viet Minh against the French.

DavidM: Yeah, in Nam

Haven't used it since.

Brian

I think we jumped the gun in 06, forgetting the demsocialists are communists at heart...we will never have a 100% super conservative party...and due to our impatientce to trasnform 40 years of democrat control...

Now we have communist lovers in 100% control...seems like a very bad trade-off to me.

Jev

Yeah, another looney tune...and scary thing is her people are now running the house and senate, and could be in the WH in 08...

DavidMac

Hey man, you, Brian, and John Kerry are cool! LOL

Now that Sarkozy is president of France, you may decide you want to go to France and brush up on the lingo...

Brian

I haven't used French since I lost my temper a few seconds ago...LOL

Only kidding...I don't use bad language...:0)

Sheila! I think that's the SECOND time

you've compared me to Komrade Kerry. Cease and desist at once!

BTW, actually there's some good news regarding the Dem takeover of Congress that may work out well long-term.

Pre-election 2006 Congressional approval was at about 39%. As of this week, it's soared to 29%, and that was before this amnesty issue hit the fan. Look for it to drop even more.

This is actually very good news. It will create a "throw the bums out" attitude next year, particularly for the Dems who promised the Moon to take over and have delivered exactly nothing but anti-American rhetoric.

Of course, the potential downside is the GOP participation in this amnesty swindle, which could negate any good will they might otherwise build up.

Interesting times!

The Dem strategery

today was to claim they won against Bush, even though they lost on the War funding issue.

Bush stood firm and they caved. Their base is livid. However, as Fred Barnes said on Fox News, where will their base go? The Dems never lose their base, only Republicans do.

I haven't heard anyone congratulating Bush on winning the "War funding" issue, even though he has a Democrat majority. No, Bush will never, ever get any praise from his base. They are too busy trying to destroy him and the GOP.

Sandra, what a crock

and you know it.

He's always credited with what he's done right. Unfortunately, that hasn't amounted to much lately.

Sandra

The Schlafly piece is very good. Thanks for sending me there Brian.

"The Heritage Foundation's Robert Rector puts a potential price tag on this bill of $2.5 trillion, which is five times the cost of the Iraq war."

That coupled with the destruction of the GOP will mean the Socialist States of North America. Thing is, the key issues ARE addressed in the bill. Just in a way that gives the advantage to the Liberals. Why won't they let us "fix" this bill? They know what the right thing to do here is, why won't they do it?

Dave; They can't

The only way they can get the amnesty through -- which is their only goal that counts to them -- is to try to camouflage it with the sop of promised border security, enforcement measures, penalties, etc.

All of which is lies, of course, just like in 1986.

It's all about the amnesty.

davecatbone:

You are right. The destruction of the GOP is in full swing.

I have three good logical points about immigration reform on a new blog, and all I've gotten back is the same old emotional argument that we've been hearing. I took amnesty off the table! It doesn't matter, they want a fight and not a bill that could resolve some of these issues.

It's pretty amazing.

davecatbone:

BTW, they aren't even going to start a serious debate until after Memorial Day. Things will be changed.

It doesn't matter. The fight is on, and no matter what the bill ends up looking like, even with amnesty completely off the table, it still won't be right!!!!

Ya know what? Particularly Sandra

If the "destruction of the GOP" as it currently exists is what it takes, so be it.

It's a self-destruction. They are destroying themselves by abandoning any principle at all, and particularly those principles upon which it claims to be founded.

The very idea of "amnesty being off the table" is beyond Twilight Zone; that's the very PURPOSE of this bill.

If amnesty was ever proposed as a separate stand-alone bill, it would fall on its butt so fast the dust wouldn't settle for a week.

The only way the amnestists can get their true goal passed into law is to hide it in other provisions that gullible people will fall for -- employer sanctions, ID checks, blah blah same stuff as last time -- and hope people haven't been paying attention for the last 20 years.

This is absurd!

Further, even pretending to be a cynical political pragmatist, what the hell is the GOP doing granting amnesty and therefore future citizenship to tens of millions of future voters for the DEMOCRATS?!!

These people are pointing a fully-loaded gun at their own heads in some weird game of Russian Roulette!

A-freaking-mazing!

OH Sandra

THEY want the same old fight? You must mean me as I am the only one, other than thumderbolt answering on your blog. You asked for other solutions and you didn't like the ones I proposed. I didn't give you emotion, I gave you solutions. You just did not like them.

Hey guys!

Man oh man, you guys are getting really animated around here! I haven't been able to check in until now!

Don't forget we are on the same side ...:)We can agree to disagree on the details, where we don't see things the same way...but we can stay civil, right?...LOL

Sandra

I think you're right that things will change, and that some won't be happy no matter what...

Uhg..this is not a pretty picture...:)

BrainR

Think about it...the world is a powder keg. China, Iran, N.Korea, Russia...not to mention our immediate problems with the WOT, and the global threat...

If you really believe the dems can keep it together if they win in 08, I have a bridge I'd love to sell you.

The GOP is our best hope for SURVIVAL...personally, I'd like to know we have a president, congress and senate who agree we need to stand strong against threats we face now, and those who are raising their ugly heads.

If you think that a democrat congress and president in power will be OK, I really question your ability to read the tee leaves...:)

Sheila: I agree provisionally

The proviso being that the GOP actually mean something other than simply becoming another branch of the Dems; that's the crux of the issue.

Let me illustrate.

I know you feel you can support Giuliani, and that's fine. But I'd like you to point out to me one area in which Giuliani doesn't have the exact same stance on issues as Joe Lieberman. There are none. They're both strong on the war and liberal on all other issues.

And THAT'S the problem, because the base will not support Giuliani any more than they'd support Lieberman.

Consequently, for the GOP to nominate a Giuliani-type candidate means they will lose in the General Election. And they'll keep losing until they understand that very simple point.

So your problem isn't with me or the conservatives; it's actually with a GOP that doesn't seem to care about alienating their core supporters while they go thrashing around looking for ephemeral new supporters in the illegal alien community, pro-abortion community, gun control community, and other places that will NEVER vote GOP no matter what they do.

BrianR

My problem isn't with you or any individual...it's with the idea of doing the enemy's work for them...their goal is to divide and conquer, and here at Townahll it seems to have worked...

As we continue to find endless fault with our party, we aid the enemy...and we tell the dems we can't unite to beat 'em...

But I still believe enough people out there in the real world understand the stakes, so I still believe we can win and win big, with a landslide, because we are watching the demsocialists in real time on their destructive path...

The GOP is still the best hope for America and the world.

LOL

Shiela

Just left comment at Sandra's blog on her I'm leaving post.

I do hope she changes her mind, it's good to have differing views on issues.

Sheila

"As we continue to find endless fault with our party, we aid the enemy...and we tell the dems we can't unite to beat 'em..."

You stated above that we find endless fault with the party, the GOP. I don't believe there is endless fault, but I do believe there is a huge gap between the pols and what the Americans want.

After 9/11 I thought our borders would be secured. To this day they are not. I can't imagine how we can actually be secure when this is the case.

Unfortunately Bush wants the border open and I cannot agree with him on this. I have supported him on other issues but not this one.

I still support him on the war, but it is somewhat of a conundrum when you think about it. He has our soldiers fighting over there, but here we are wide open. It has led we to wonder for the first time why are our soldiers risking and losing their lives then? If within this own country, security measures to keep out jihadists are not being met. We don't know who has come across that border. We don't know how many AQ or Hizzies are here plotting to kill us. After 6 years since 9/11 I see this open border policy as a disaster. If something happens, like a dirty bomb going off here you know who is going to be blamed.

Pep

Don't be disheartened...I think things have improved on the border. The fence in San Diego has made a huge difference already.

I believe that just as Bush fought to get the patriot act, which has basically done the job, or we would have been hit by now...he isn't going to want to undermine our national security, after he's accomplished the impossible so far!

We have to let our representatives know what we want, and the debate will happen and we will get a bill that will do the job.I'm not throwing in the towel just yet...:)

Bush won't undermine what he's accomplished. Why would he do that? If he didn't believe there was a good chance to get a good bill that will make our borders more secure, he wouldn't be going for it!

Let's go through the process, communicate our desires to our representatives, and I am confident we will get a good bill.

The world is a nasty place, and we don't want to have the dems in total control in 08. We need to unite as a party and get the job done...elect more conservatives, and have a landslide with the WH in 08. Our future depends on it!

We can do it!...:)

Sheila:

You: "The GOP is still the best hope for America and the world."

Absolutely! Agreed!

But it has to be a REAL GOP, not just another version of the Democrat party.


Jevica

I hope she'll come back too...

Brian

I think you want a "conservative party"...the GOP is a party which allows independent thought, unlike the demsocialist party.

We need to get behind our party and win...I do not want to live in a country with dictator wannabes running the government.

The dems are on the side of Chavez, Castro, Ahmadenijad, etc...

I want people who love America running the country. We need to get over this negativity, do the work and win the majority.

Frankly, I am getting weary of the constant barrage against Bush and our party here on Townhall...

We can work for the best party possible, for the best candidates possible, but we will never have a perfect party...we have the best party and I will stick with it, because our future depends on it. If it's the GOP or the dictator wannabes, it's a no brainer. I don't want to have the cut and run yellow party in charge. Not now , not ever!...:)

Sheila: That's right

A conservative party, like the GOP used to be with Reagan and Gingrich.

Otherwise include me out. I'll cast my vote elsewhere.

If I liked liberalism, I could vote for the real thing with the Democrats.

Sheila

"Frankly, I am getting weary of the constant barrage against Bush and our party here on Townhall..."

Sheila, I am wondering where this barrage against Bush is.

Some of us disagree strongly with his border policy. That is what America is all about, being able to disagree with policy. I don't call that Bush bashing.

There are many issues I do agree with Bush, but this is not one of them.

And, yes we need a good candidate for the GOP. I believe Hunter is a very good candidate. But, people keep focusing on the top 3, who are going to go down in flames. We need to press hard to get the good candidate out front.

And, when you say "independent" thinkers, you are speaking about some of here at TH. Yes, we are not following the GOP line on immigration. We want something different than what is being shoved down our throats.

We have to have border security first.

Some of us have been around long enough, have compromised time and time again. We are weary of the same old compromise. This is basically the same bill since 1986 being kicked around again.

I have been writing and faxing my reps on a daily basis telling them, "border security" first, then let's talk about the rest.

Let me see action first, like really closing the borders and then I'll be interested. Until then it's not an option.

You'll be happy to know

I just posted a new essay that doesn't mention Bush, the GOP, immigration, or Giuliani.

Quite a change, eh?

Sheila...take your own advice

take some time out and relax. You may not believe me but people like your sister and you are needed to show that the GOP is a group of reasonable individuals...strong and passionate on some issues but willing to work toward the impossible without whining about how long it takes.

I believe that life is full of choices...we can either get ourselves worked up over things that take more effort than it's worth or we can walk away and wait for an opportune time.

When this bill is killed and the GOP won't go near this issue...perhaps then, your efforts to keep the GOP and those who want to win the WOT, keep sanity in the courts, and this great economy to present a united and PALATABLE front to the American voter will be rewarded.

Until then, perhaps take a few days off--or stay away from this issue period. Just don't frustrate yourself so much you do what Sandra felt she had to do.

Sanity

"....the GOP is a group of reasonable individuals...strong and passionate on some issues but willing to work toward the impossible without whining about how long it takes."

This problem has existed for over 20 years. 9/11 happened almost 6 years ago. Let me get this straight, "whining" that it takes so long? Interesting. Securing the borders after 20 years of the same problem is called "whining". Wanting the borders secured after 9/11 is called "whining".

That is a very lame argument.

"When this bill is killed and the GOP won't go near this issue.."

That is your opinion based on what? Have you ever thought that if the bill is killed perhaps the GOP might think about securing the borders first before ramming other issues down our throats? The American people have spoken. The majority want the borders secured first. Check it out.

Secure the borders, then we can decide what/how we deal with the illegals already here. If the border is not secured, we will be looking at the very same problem over and over, another 20 million illegals here, AGAIN, because the border is not closed.

The usual method to fix a problem is to start at the place it begins.

The problem starts at the border.

Sheila

I want to second Jimmy Carter's post from May 20.

That's the problem with having standards: one can be caught in those standards. One who has no standards cannot be tripped up by those non-existant standards.

And we allow it...

At least most of us allow it...

Why? That's good question.

Peppermint wrote:

"Have you ever thought that if the bill is killed perhaps the GOP might think about securing the borders first before ramming other issues down our throats?"

And if they don't? If I am right and they don't touch this issue for another 8, 10 years?

Then what?

If the base stays home, if Bush is impeached, if every single GOP in Congress loses their seat...

Then what?

Peppermint, you don't get it do you? The GOP no longer controls Congress. All you can do is take away the WH--and LET Queen Hil, Obama, or Edwards take it...and they may spend money like you think Bush has...and give you nothing like you think Bush has on immigration...but I can promise you that they will NOT fight the WOT like Bush nor will the terrorist be afraid of them like Bush.

Now tell me Peppermint...tell me if you want 12 million illegal deported and troops stationed at the wall with orders to shoot so badly that you'll let a Dem be Commander and Chief.

Sanity

"Peppermint, you don't get it do you? The GOP no longer controls Congress. All you can do is take away the WH--and LET Queen Hil, Obama, or Edwards take it..."

You must think I'm pretty powerful if you think "I" can take away the WH.

I'm afraid you don't get it Sanity. I'll be voting for conservative candidates who truly are conservative and not repubs in dems clothing.

You can keep voting yourself for all those pols who don't give a hoot what you think. That's fine by me. You won't get what you want that way.

Your theory that the repubs will never touch the immigration bill again makes no sense to me. And, if they are such cowards who wants them in office anyway.

I hate to be the one to tell you, Sanity, but the latest polls report that the majority of Americans want the border secured first. Both sides of the fence.

Did it ever occur to you that the dems might lose some seats over this issue too? You seem to think it's only conservatives that are angry about this.

Well, you're wrong. Liberals, a good many of them are not happy either.

And, I never said one thing about letting Hill, Obama or Edwards take over the WH. Where you come from with that is beyond me. We already have a good conservative running in Duncan Hunter.

I can only vote out my two senators, one who is a dem and one who is a repub in dems clothing, he votes with the dems all the time. The loss of these two would be no big deal.

I can't vote out your reps. That's your issue.

The dems might control congress but that does not mean they are getting what they want. You must not be watching very closely what is going on. The repub minority has their way of stopping things in congress. You must not have noticed.


To add to Pep's comment

The reason the GOP lost control of Congress last November is because the Dems exploited the GOP hypocrisy on illegal immigration. If both parties on defying the will of the vast majority of the voters, there will be a big overhaul in the next election. The fastest way to get elected will be to argue that border security and building the wall are critical. Even if this bill is killed, the damage is done. Very few of the current office holders are secure right now. What happened to Dashle in 2004 is about to happen to a lot of them, including Harry Reid who appears to be in trouble. If there is one thing that Fred Thompson said in an interview with Mark Levin a few weeks ago is that the Republican has often been the party that believed in doing the right thing and when they have, it has served them well in the eyes of the voters. Amnesty may be wildly populare with the monied elites but voters across the political spectrum are appoplectic over it for obvious reasons. WE WANT TO KEEP OUR SOVEREIGNTY! It has never been more obvious what the right thing is. And yet, YOUR PRESIDENT, is telling us that we are unpatriotic if we don't support him! Gingrich is right. Bush is the new Jimmy Carter (the ex-prez, not TH's esteemed blogger).

So Peppermint

you are willing to bet the WH and who gets to be the C&C of our troops fighting the WOT on your being right?



In the ONLY polls that count

The Illegal Immigration issue LOST...which is why none of the leading candidates is running on that issue.

And the fact that you absolutist won't even LISTEN to people like Senator Kyl just taught the GOP a lesson alright...STAY away from this issue.

And again, IF I am right Peppermint...if they do take THEIR marbles and go home...what does the absolutists do?

The Left won't do anything, 3rd parties can't, and the GOP is just dang tired of trying to be perfect.

Now what?

Game over, we have the AMNESTY that the conservative icon Reagan gave us decades ago...and in 18 months, the woman who hates our military will become their Commander in Chief.

Bright huh?

Oh and one thing to think about Peppermint... those who claim to want the Right to stand on principles and the results be damned are the very ones who don't understand why YOU won't discuss politics at work and RISK losing your job.

Principles are hills that very few of us have the luxury to die on.

Fourth of July

Fred Thompson will announce. If he comes out running against the current bill or it's equivalent in the House, he can win the White House. That's my bet.

Sanity

I don't care what other people think of me to be frank. And, I don't care what you think. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I won't pretend to try to change your mind because I don't care.

You have one strategy, accept this bill the way it is written. That sounds "absolute" to me.

The American people are simply saying close the borders, then let's talk about who is in our country and what to do with them.

I want to fight this bill so we Americans, the majority, get a different bill, one that secures the border first. It's not rocket science. It's not even a luxurious demand. Our country is not a country if the borders are not secured.

Go ahead and accept anything these cowardly and treasonous pols want to throw down your throat.

But, you are in the minority on this one.

And, Phil is right. Pols on both sides of the fence are going to lose seats over this because a whole spectrum across this country is angry over this bill.

People aren't stupid any more about this. People know the borders need to be closed.

I think you're attaching too much significance with this bill and who gets the WH.

btw, I don't say I'm right or wrong, I just speak my opinion. That's all. Why do you spend so much time harassing me on it? I'm not that powerful. Like I said I have one vote, that's all.

Peppermint

A few points to consider:

If you are wondering why the GOP might be forced to steer well clear of illegal immigration issue, research the UK conservative party during the late eighties and into the ninties.

There the European debate (how Britian integrated in Europe) tore the party apart, forcing the then Prime minister John Major to effectively stand down and call an internal election. He won his position back, and only then did his critics quieten, but only for a while.

The situation worsened to the point that the conservative party were unelectable, and the UK is still under a liberal government. The Conservative party now will not even entertain the European debate because of the damage it dealt.

Ever heard the saying: 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'?

"And yet, YOUR PRESIDENT, is telling us that we are unpatriotic if we don't support him! Gingrich is right. Bush is the new Jimmy Carter (the ex-prez, not TH's esteemed blogger)."

PasadenaPhil, regardless of how passionate you are, who do you think this comment is helping? The GOP or the Democrats?

"I'll be voting for conservative candidates who truly are conservative and not repubs in dems clothing."

And Peppermint, if Hunter is not chosen, then you will be third party? If so who is that helping?

A few other polls for you:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1196405-2,00.html
http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=27307

Polls prove nothing Peppermint, as Mark Twain was accredited to say: There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

Jim

This is an open discussion for the whole world to see. I really doubt that were it to pass that Hillary became president, it would have been my words that made it happen. I reserve the right to criticize Republicans, Democrats and anyone else who works against my interests. IMHO, George W. Bush IS the GOP's Jimmy Carter. He will forever by wedded to Ted Kennedy. I cannot imagine a Democrat could have done any worse. They couldn't because Republican Congress would have blocked the Bush agenda were it presented by the Dems. We ARE allowed to criticize our own party. This is not Venezuela.

Jim

Ditto what Phil said.

This is America. Criticizing my government is my right. The last time I heard we weren't living in a dictatorship where you get shot for criticizing what your government is doing.

Obviously you don't like free speech because you want people like me and Phil to shut up.

As Phil said, if Hillary is elected it won't be my fault. I'm not on the world stage. And the repubs will have done it to themselves. You've got it backwards, Jim. We did not give up our conservative principles, the republicans did, at least some of them.

I have my limits on how much I'm going to take from my government. Pols are elected by the people to do a job for the people. That is not what they are doing. On either side of the political spectrum.

And, quite frankly, Jim, it is really none of your business who I vote for. My vote is private and sacred. I will vote for whomever I choose.

I'm not telling you who to vote for so I would appreciate you set aside your arrogance and not tell me who to vote for. Or even question it.

I am an American citizen who has as much right as you to choose who I want.

You don't like my opinion that is just too darn bad. I don't care.


Brief change of subject:

What happened to Sheila. Did she leave townhall too?

"The only polls which count"?

The only polls which count take place the first week of November 2008.

BrianR

Most of what you write I disagree with, but on this you are absolutely correct. Election day is the only one that matters.

Most other polls are easy to disprove, prove or anything else you want to do with them, dependant on what questions you ask and who you ask. The Time one that has bandied its way around TH is no exception.

Peppermint, YOU addressed me

first, not I you...and now you're accusing me of harassing you?

You have every right to your opinion and every right to speak...but Peppermint, only Liberals think that there should be no consequences for what they say...and I believe that you aren't a Liberal so I wish you wouldn't use that liberal "freedom of speech" card.

As for having "enough"...yes, that's what I say the GOP minority is feeling right now.

PasadenaPhil

"George W. Bush IS the GOP's Jimmy Carter. He will forever by wedded to Ted Kennedy."

Simply repeating the statement does not improve the argument. And yes I am aware it is an open discussion for the world to see. I am counting on that.

Just out of interest did you bother to do any research? How many individuals on the British conservative party thought it was their fault?

Becoming unelectable is not a group decision Phil. It is a decision made by individuals who decide that the party "works against my interests."


Peppermint

"My vote is private and sacred."

Yes to first part and no to second. Many people have worked and some died to protect your vote, but sacred it isn't. It is a prize for freedom not a god-given right.

As to who you actually are going to vote for, that wasn't the point, as you know, which suggests you are clutching at straws.

"The last time I heard we weren't living in a dictatorship where you get shot for criticizing what your government is doing."

Funny, I asked who was your comments helping the most? I guess you figured it out then. The question was not "can you critize the government?"

"because you want people like me and Phil to shut up."

I would like you to make your points eloquently and backed up by a few sources. But if you prefer that, I am more than happy not to interfere in that decision.


Sanity and Jim

I'm not clutching at any straws, but the two of you certainly are. The two of you are clutching at straws in the repub party, with conservatism nearly dead and gone. What principles are they standing on these days? Just what are you clutching? There is nothing there to hold onto with the repubs right now. That is your problem, thrashing trying to convince others that we should support this horrible bill when the American people know it stinks to high heaven.

When two people keep trying to make someone feel guilty for having an opinion different from theirs, it is my opinion you are thrashing about trying to make an argument that doesn't fly.

As for sounding like liberals, both of you sound like liberals.

Willing to allow the government to ram this bill down our throats that flies in the face of everything a conservative stands for what do you call that?

Here is a copy of the last thing I put on Sandra' blog:

"Do any of you
go to the columnists' threads and debate with people on those threads? I wonder because other than davecatbone I don't see any of you on the threads.

The debates on those threads are often heated and passionate. I think that is good. You will see many varied opinions on those threads. People come here with any number of ways of looking at issues.

I personally like to see what others have to say. I like to see a difference of opinion. I like to see others' thoughts on the issues. What things look like from their angle.

Which leads me to impeachment.

About the impeachment. I threw that out because I was thrown that by a blogger on a column. The individual gave me the reason for thinking that way.

I thought about it. At first I was taken back by it. But, this person made sense to me. What is our President doing caring more for Mexico than he does for our country? I have supported Bush with just about everything else, his wars, his tax cuts, his justice appointments. I cannot support him on this immigration bill.

Would I actually call for his impeachment? Probably not, but it is a thought, something that makes most people look up with the same small shock I did when first presented to me by another blogger who I may add was a conservative.

Why do conservatives like yourselves want to pay taxes for all the illegals here when you want your taxes cut. At least that is what I assume you want since you are conservatives.

Is it not the belief of conservatives that social programs should not exist? Are you not the conservatives who do not want to pay for "crack" babies because some woman made a mistake. Are you not the conservatives who say that woman should take responsibility and not us? Do you say we should not pay for that woman's mistake?

Are you not the same conservatives who do not want government paying for food for the poor, programs for sick people, national health insurance? Are you the same conservatives who don't want drug programs for seniors?

Are you the same conservatives who want abortion struck down because it is not in the Constitution, this mythical right to privacy?

Are you the same conservatives who want the WOT fought?

Are you the same conservatives that believe that laws exist taken from the Ten Commandments so that we have an ordered society and not anarchy?

Because if you are then I don't understand your reasoning for wanting to pay for illegals, to give them rights that they don't have, to allow lawbreakers to storm our country, to drive our health care system into a national crisis.

Would I shoot illegals coming across the border?
No, I threw that out for the very same reason I threw out the impeachment. If we cannot see that our country is being driven into the ground and losing its' sovereignty with this globalism that Bush has grasped onto and won't let go no matter what it does to our country, we are in big trouble here.

We conservatives have sat back and allowed a lot of things to go by us. Roe vs. Wade slipped on by and barely a whimper.

Eminent domain has slipped by us and barely a whimper. Who brings it to our attention? Only talk show hosts on the right.

How many lines have to be crossed before enough is enough? How many times can one allow oneself to be betrayed before enough is enough?

How many times does a woman believe her husband who beats her and apologizes? He tells her the next time will be different. He tells her this time he means to hold his promise to her?

But, what happens? He does not. He beats her again.

Then one day that line is crossed. She no longer will take it from him. Enough is enough she says.

The line for me has been crossed. Enough is enough."

So, I speak out as a conservative. As far as hurting anyone, I don't believe I hurt anyone by speaking out. You making that argument is ridiculous.

Jim:
"Yes to first part and no to second. Many people have worked and some died to protect your vote, but sacred it isn't. It is a prize for freedom not a god-given right."

Yeah, I'm well aware of that. Every male family member of mine fought in one of our wars. My uncle gave his life in Vietnam. So, don't try to throw that one on me like you would some liberal.
I know very well the pain of those who fought and their families being one of those family members who felt the pain. Both of my uncles fought in Korea, my brother in Vietnam. They all came home wounded. So, yes, they fought too to preserve your right to freedom and my right to freedom of speech.

As far as you crabbing at me and Phil about speaking out, you need to take a look at some of the columnists' threads to see just how many people are speaking out about this bad bill. It is not only Phil and me. You behave as if Phil and I are the only ones speaking out and somehow "we" are to blame for the repubs gong down the tubes.

If the republican party gets hurt by this, it is their fault, not mine. Put the responsibility on where it lies. Write your reps about their fallacies and mistakes. Go to the source of the problem rather than blame individuals like Phil and me.

Like I said, Jim, you've got things backwards. The republicans did it to themselves for having thrown away conservative ideas and principles. Big spending, big earmarks, corruption, behaving no different that the democrats. There is not much difference in the two parties, except on national security. And, if the republicans don't want to secure our borders, they appear not to care about national security either.

I'm not as eloquent as some of the columnists who write here at TH. Try reading them, like Terry Jeffrey, or Sowell, someone who points out all the reasons this bill is bad. Read the comments under the columnist's threads. You will see how much of a minority you are in.

And, once again, my vote is private and none of your business.






Fascinating

I'm enjoying the irony of seeing the Republican party defended by an devout anti-ideologue independent who is choosing only one principle, against a group of conservatives who feel betrayed on nearly every principle. Big tent indeed. But Pepp, you and every other person here who has served or has family that has will always have my deepest appreciation. So much of this robust debate seems to cycling about rhetoric and not fact. Sanity, Sandra and Jim are interpreting the bill's effect one way, and just about everyone else, (except Steve Maloney) are seeing it another. But I believe even McCain just made the statement that the Senate should make adjustments to the bill. And if he recognizes that the language has it's faults, then......

Peppermint

We cannot allow anyone to get this bill passed.

It flies not only in the face of what conservatives believe in, but what any American should believe in.

This bill as written is a horror.

The country is being invaded this must be stopped. Secure the borders first, enforcement, then we can start to think about the rest of this.

I have gotten into this "birthright citizenship" situation. These "guest workers" come in and what happens if their wife has a child here? Will it be another "anchor baby?" We have to change the entire outlook of birthright citizenship.

Dave: You bet yer as$ it'll

be another anchor baby!

We are being sold down the river, being bent over the log and never getting a kiss, being screwed out of our birthright, getting tubed without lube, and any other obscene aphorism I can come up with, because this bill is an abomination and an abortion.

And believe me, you STILL haven't seen me steamed up.

Peppermint

Geez, for someone who doesn't care what I think, you sure went out of your way to explain your reasons behind attacking the bill, wanting to shoot illegals, and wanting to impeach Bush.

Peppermint, let me save you from wasting your breath--and my time.

1- I have never needed a popular consensus to decide an issue so being in the minority doesn't affect me one iota.

2- I am an Independent, not a Republican, not a Conservative. I am not particularly touchy about being called a Liberal or not conservative enough since I know that I am neither.

3- I support border control and want the wall but I will not risk losing the WH and making Hil who hates the military the Commander in Chief by attacking the only other viable party.

4- For or against this bill...this bill is DEAD...and I predict (or does your freedom of speech card work only one way?) the GOP will not go near this issue again...which means we get to keep Reagan's amnesty for years or until a Dem Congress AND a Dem WH decides to give you a bill of both our nightmares.

5- As for speech not hurting anyone...is that what you thought of Cindy Sheehan or Reid...did you think their words didn't hurt our military, their families and America?

And finally, if what I say is so off the mark and ridiculous...ignore me.

I only replied because you specifically addressed me...and because I think you know that what you are doing is hurting your cause...and because you of all people know what it's like to put your principles and your right to speak freely behind your need for your job.












Sanity

Why don't you get on the threads under the columnists who are writing about this horrible bill and debate it with the many people who feel the same as I do?

Get a bigger audience for yourself and try to convince other people of your way of thinking if you are so convinced you are right. Get yourself heard out on those threads where you can have more people hear your voice and use your freedom of speech.

No one is trying to shut down your freedom of speech. As if I had the power or the inclination to do so. You post here don't you. If you want to use your freedom of speech please do so. Try the threads too.

You won't do that though because you are too afraid because you know you will get eaten alive. You already know hardly anyone agrees with you.

Try playing with the big boys under the columnists and get a spine.

Here's a scenario

We pass this bill. Hillary still gets elected. Within the first year of her term, she steps up to the podium to announce, that in the interest of the greater good of the collective, she's "certifying that the border is secure, so we can get on with helping these poor people become American voters, I mean, productive members of society, I mean getting the help they need to improve their lives.

Peppermint,

Ask your friends about me playing with the big boys...if that's what you think commenting under the pundit's stories are...and how I did there. How do you think Sandra and Dave and a bunch of people FOUND me? They came to my blog...they addressed ME.

I don't comment on the main page very much lately because I DO have a life. I barely have the time to post to my own blog, read those whose blogs I enjoy, and comment, much less join the cattle run on the main blog site.

You REALLY do have a problem with popularity don't you? You seem to need the consensus of other people and despite your declaration, their approval.

Well I don't...when I say I'm an Independent, I mean I AM an Independent. I am well capable of doing my own research and making up my own mind. I don't wait to see which way the wind is blowing and I'm not afraid to be the only one standing up for what I believe is right.

I don't want to entertain anyone on my blog or have anyone come and tell me how right I am or to agree with me. My blog is my private corner to rant or just make sense of what I am considering (such as who to support for President). I don't have dreams of influencing tons of readers thru my essays nor do I want one big happy family of people who think just like me.

I am quite amused when people like you seem to need that.

But let's cut to the chase here because my time really is limited.

Do you believe I have nothing worth listening to? If so, please stop asking me questions and I'll stop replying. You go play with people who agree with you and will rack up your comment count on your blog and I'll spend my limited time having discussions that will actually benefit both people involved.




Hi everyone!

Thanks for stopping by!

Will, thanks for inquiring...yes I'm still here at TH, and Sanity, thanks for the kind words.

I just got back from a great trip to beautiful Pagosa Springs Colorado, Sedona Arizona and Oak Creek Canyon where I have great memories from my childhood, and always enjoy time there...nothing like time to relax, hike, swim, fish, do the rapids, or just kick back and enjoy this beautiful country God gave us.

Looks like the debate is raging here at TH... seems you're all still passionate and debating even in my absence...:)thanks for checking in here at "one eighty"!

Seems the process is working. We are letting our politicians hear our voices, and there will be adjustments to the immigration bill...

I'll be posting a new blog tomorrow, so stay tuned...meanwhile I'll try to comment on some of your posts here.

Welcome back

I love Sedona and Oak Creek Canyon. Got cousins in Flagstaff and Prescott so I have been through there a couple of times. Looking forward to your new post.

While I was away

as I checked in on the news, it continued to be very clear to me that we face a clear and present danger in this mad insane spiraling out of control world.

As the debate rages on about how to handle the problem of illegal immigration here in the US that has been going on for years, the world continues to become more and more dangerous.

We cannot afford to have dictator wannabes in power in this country, ie the demsocialist party, and we in the GOP need to realize the best hope for our nation and the world is still the Republican party.

As we continue this debate, we need to remember the enemy is listening, and hoping the demsocialists win here, because it will mean their cause will be advanced. They do not want the Republicans to win. They are hoping this illegal issue will cause our defeat.

As passionate as we can be on our side, if we defeat our own party we will be the losers, and we will wake up to an America we won't recognize after the 08 election. Not only will we have a repeat of the Clinton/Al Gore immigration disaster, we will have a repeat of the Carter administration's failed foreign policies which will further endanger our country's future.

The demsocialists are hoping to divide and conquer, take over the reigns of power for another 40 years to finish the job they started on America, re-making her in their image...

I believe we will work things out with the immigration bill, and we will surprise the demsocialists and their friends in the media, and we will have a landslide for the GOP in 08.

I for one will do everything I can to defeat the America haters...I do not want a future America with Hill, Obama, or Edwards in the WH.

Will comment further on your comments...:)

Will

Thanks, good to be back.

Yeah that is a beautiful area...I have relatives in Flaf too!

Prescot is quite a place these days...a friend just moved there, and we stopped by to see his new place, and played a round of golf at a gorgeous golf course called Hassayampa... (I think I spelled that right...:0)

When I was a kid we'd stay at my grandparent's place on the edge of Oak Creek, and we'd swim in the freezing creek, and sun on the rocks. It was a great place to be.

Sorry, Wil

...

I'll try to get the spelling right...:)