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Comment on: Fletch for Freedom

Taking From Those In Need

27 Comments

I learned it,too

I used to collect toys. In my quest to complete a collection, paid $90 for a specific item. My friend kept telling me that there were hundreds, thousands of these things around....be patient. I didn't want to wait. I paid the premium. several months later, on a toy hunt, I found two of the same item and purchsed each for a whopping buck. It is only worth what I was willing to pay!!!
An aside,here. Heard a talk show last night. Since you are the "Economic Man" I thought you might be interested. (You might already know this.) The new job figures that have come out in the last few days show we are holding steady and I was listening to a guy(definietely a left-mindd thinker)wussing about the deficit and how it's getting bigger by the second. The host had to correct the caller and say that no, actually the deficit is getting reduced. Most people would think that is good news, right? This guy went ballistic and screamed the guy must be from another planet!! I was stunned that the guy didn't even pause to think about that!!! Maybe we need to be informed by the guru!! :)He was totally pissed that somethig good was happening...go figure.

Excellent essay

It's especially ironic that government -- which is ever-inefficient and usually loses money -- should take upon itself the power to tell others in the market what they're allowed to charge.

As I recall

The Soviet Union had a similar pricing system. And what a whopping success that was.

Another point: By restricting the price, it delays the entire supply chain of goods going into the area. It also transfers the "excess" cost to other regions.

Anyone trying to by plywood or strandboard anywhere in the country paid a price premium due to the short supply caused by Katrina. No legislation will create a sheet of plywood out of thin air, and if a lot of it is suddenly in demand, the price will rise for it somewhere in the marketplace. If not in Louisianna, then here in Indiana, but the market will have its way.

Another Thing for Me to Be Angry Over!

There's such a sense of entitlement in this country that people ignore the prices others pay to even make certain products available! (Like compaints over expensive drugs -- ignoring the money and research that went into creating them in the first place. Um, if there were a magic pill to cure your cancer, would it not be worth a lot of money to you?)

Other sellers are free to steal the competition's business by selling at a lower price. And people can refuse to pay if the item is not worth the price. Bottom line: if the outrageously priced item is not worth the cost, don't buy it! If you really really want that rare item on Ebay, you gotta outbid others who might pay a huge price. Is this any different from selling ice at a higher cost when supply is down?

Seems like a very free system to me, despite the label of 'gouging'. And here comes big daddy government again to make things worse.

So when will the government start regulating the 'price gouging' that happens when movie stars and athletes make enormous amounts of money? Is that fair to the person making minimum wage taking tickets at the theater or stadium?

Well, that's the premise behind the harmful economics that lead to failed systems like socilaism. Everyone has to have equal outcomes... meaning equally poor and stagnant.

Wait, Doc!

You don't know how many will be filing returns to get Earned Income Tax Credits!

Gordon Gekko said it best ..

.. when he opined "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good." I realize that he is a fictional character in a movie. And although I don't remember all the details of the movie, Gordo came to a sticky end in the movie - I think that he was eaten by either ET or Godzilla!

Gordo's rather reptilian name (and his untimely passing) are Hollywood's way of convincing us that:
* self-interest is a 'base' instinct in humans
* good humans should practice altruism
* selflessness is virtuous and should be revered

THAT is the philosophy of the Leftist credo - but, observe that it is also eerily reminiscent of most religious teachings. The fact that it goes against the reality of incentive-driven human action is somehow ignored. In fact, this credo has been used successfully (with religion-inspired altruism as a sort of catalyst / facilitator) to gain POWER and CONTROL over others. How ironic is it that Leftists can subvert altruism into a weapon of control and power? How stupid are we that so many of us fall for that?

In the jungle, no one would ask a deer to walk instead of running - because it would mean certain death for the deer. But humans are asked to work AGAINST their nature. Impossible (and actually immoral) altruistic 'ideals' are raised that are contrary to human nature.

Leftists create grandiose schemes such as Public Education & UHC which cannot possibly work with 'normal' humans. And, what is a 'normal' human? One who respond to incentives based on self-interest.

When those selfless, sacrificial schemes fail, it is blamed on the 'selfish-gene' that inhabits ONLY the bodies of the greedy sumbiches among us.

The trump card is played when humans are told that if they fail to act in an altruistic manner during their lives, then will be consigned to the ash-heap of he||.

Those who advocate (or prosecute) anti-gouging are perpetrators of the same ugly double-fraud.
1) Altruism is an ideal and to be a good human is to behave selflessly
2) If (when) that 'ideal' doesn't work as intended, the failures are blamed on human weakness

Although their ostensible purpose is to 'protect' consumers, the end result of anti-gouging policies is to REMOVE or REDUCE the supply of those high-priced commodities.

All the altruism in the world could not get ice or drinking water into the storm-affected areas quickly - it took self-interest to make that happen. BTW, if self-interest was encouraged in our culture (despite the circumstances), the proper role of Govt would be to ensure an orderly market, free from chaos and violence. In reality, there would quickly be enough pvt suppliers that would mobilize to bring essentials into disaster areas, with the usual competitive forces bringing prices into line quickly.

All this is relevant to the "Faith and free markets" topic because many who believe in 'free-market' principles don't often give too much thought to the underlying moral and ethical principles. When they do, they have to resolve the thorny dilemma which comes from faith-based ideology.

VoR

"In the jungle, no one would ask a deer to walk instead of running - because it would mean certain death for the deer. But humans are asked to work AGAINST their nature. Impossible (and actually immoral) altruistic 'ideals' are raised that are contrary to human nature."

But does the mother deer abandon her doe when a predator is around?

So when Grandpa gets too old to drive the tractor, we just take him out back to the barn and shoot him, instead of taking care of him?

Your argument borders on DeSade nihilism. So I have just a couple questions, in reference to your defense of greed and selfishness.

Do you have any children?

Have you ever been so sick that you have been dependent upon another to take care of you?

And how do you describe the man whose country is under attack and so willingly enlists in the military, with a vow to lay down his life to protect his people?

Altruism is NOT contrary to human nature, nor is it immoral. There are PLENTY of people in this world who do for others with no benefit other than a sense of having been useful to humanity. If only the Mother Teresa were still alive, I'd encourage you to take your argument to her. Service and sacrifice ARE a part of human nature.

The problem is that these things have to come from the heart, not from a government mandate, backed up by police coercion. That's when it ceases to be altruism and becomes a kind of slavery. The fault in liberal thinking is in not understanding one from the other.

Inkshadow,

Q) But does the mother deer abandon her doe when a predator is around?
A) No, and neither do human parents - because they 'selfishly' love their children.

Q) So when Grandpa gets too old to drive the tractor, we just take him out back to the barn and shoot him, instead of taking care of him?
A) No, because my parents took care of me when I was a kid - so, I reciprocate by taking care of them in their old age. However, as much as I like them, I wouldn't take care of my neighbor's granparents (or parents)!

Q) Do you have any children?
A) Yes. Two boys - ages 12 and 9. And yes, I would jump into the pits of He|| (or the rapids above Niagara Falls) to rescue them, if needed. Because, I (selfishly) cannot imagine living in a world without them.

Q) Have you ever been so sick that you have been dependent upon another to take care of you?
A) Yes. My parents, when I was a kid and had a near fatal accident. In later years, my wife took care of me when I was recovering from surgery.

Q) And how do you describe the man whose country is under attack and so willingly enlists in the military, with a vow to lay down his life to protect his people?
A) Honestly, I am in awe of such men (and women). I have never served in the military - so, I cannot speak from 1st hand experience of such physical and moral courage. However, if I had to guess, I would say that such brave men (and women) refuse to consider living under any terms except their own. I define that as 'self-interest', the word selfish having been relegated to only its pejorative usage in our upside-down morality.

INKSHADOW: "The problem is that these things have to come from the heart, not from a government mandate, backed up by police coercion. That's when it ceases to be altruism and becomes a kind of slavery. The fault in liberal thinking is in not understanding one from the other."
VoR: When they come from the individual's own thoughts, they are 'selfish' impulses (as defined above) due to the individual's own value system. When they result from following the exhortations of politicians, clergy, scripture, they are usually distorted by social posturing. Extrapolate from there, and you wind up with a welfare state!

I happen to know a very nice couple who work as missionaries, teaching kids in Africa for months at a time - while leaving their kids in the care of others in the US. When they are back in the US, they are busy raising funds for their charity work. Not surprisingly, their kids turn out to be brats, with limited focus and no particular goals. In the prevailing culture, this couple would be called 'selfless'. In my terminology, they are NOT SELFISH ENOUGH!

Inkshadow, re: Mother Theresa

I admire Mother Theresa for her:
* dedication and perseverance
* single-mindedness and focus
* ability to tolerate hardship in pursuit of her cause
* passionate belief in her cause

Personal anecdote: For some reason, I get called upon to 'counsel' kids in their late teens and early twenties. In most cases, it is their parents who send them to me with the suggestion "Talk to Unca VoR, he'll set you straight!"

It is amazing how many times Mother Theresa's name is raised by earnest, thoughtful, intelligent youngsters who have decided to quit school and:

* become missionaries in Africa
* volunteer for the Peace Corps
* fight for environmental causes
* chain themselves to the White House fence

Most of these kids are bubbling with altruistic fervor that begins with years of religious values (not all bad) which set them up for a few years of indoctrination by 'selfless' teachers with a Leftist slant (almost all bad).

Therefore, I bait the hook by asking whether 'tis nobler to donate $5000 a month or $50 a month. The answer is usually the former - but, "I don't care about money". Did I mention that these kids are usually from affluent homes?

My next point is whether they could help (insert favorite cause here) more by chaining themselves to a fence, or staying in school, becoming a (engineer, lawyer, doctor ..) and enhancing their value from $7/hr to $250/hr? The answer remains (albeit weaker, this time) "But I don't care about money".

Using THEIR definition, I ask "how could you be so 'selfish' as to look for the instant gratification of marching with attractive people in the streets - when you could do so much more AFTER you get an education? If you were educated, you could (a) donate more or (b) work tirelessly and passionately as an EDUCATED crusader for justice - instead of being part of the rabble."

OK, so my success rate isn't very high! But they sometimes send me an email when they are (a) getting married or (b) graduating from college.

Back on the topic of Mother Theresa: my problem is with a world-view that reveres her and despises Bill Gates (except for the few millions he gives away).

Quoting (selfishly) from "Somethin' dirty goin' on?" at http://voice.townhall.com/g/078b6d85-013f-400f-ac48-c959548cd019

"This is a philosophical dichotomy that causes us to 'feel' our way towards huge mistakes - with the noblest intentions at heart and the counterfeit currency of altruism. As a result, we 'feel' that Public Education is the only way that we can ensure a quality education. Or, we just hate the idea that doctors, nurses, hospitals and pharmaceutical companies make a profit while providing life-saving services and products. So, we 'feel' our way towards Universal Health Care.

The result: we pretend to be altruistic, and fake our way through life. Since our affluence comes from actions taken in our self-interest, we feel guilty for our success.

We claim altruism as a Value - but secretly value our affluence - setting ourselves up for guilt over our well-deserved high standard of living. So, the Joy of attaining our real value (earned through hard work and careful risk-taking) has to be hidden.

Perversely, we honor philanthropy over well-earned wealth. We seem to forget that the process of earning wealth is actually more difficult than the process of giving some of it away. The process of earning wealth also directly or indirectly contributes much more to 'society' than a wealthy person's philanthropy. So, why is Bill Gates reviled for earning billions (while revolutionizing the business world), but lauded for giving away a few millions?

What is it in human nature that sets us up for these contradictions? Why are we so susceptible to the mostly manufactured aura of selflessness? If we could answer that, we would have a good understanding of the instinctive dislike that many people have of the profit motive. "

Philosophical dilemma

This is about a friend - yes, really, this IS about a friend - who happens to be a very good engineer.

He charges $150/hr for his engineering services, and has to turn away projects because of the high demand for his skillset.

On weekends, he spends as much as 20hrs, building homes for Habitat for Humanity - because he 'believes in giving back'.

I suggested to him that he could work on engineering projects for 16hrs during the weekend, and use the extra $2400 to pay an out of work handyman $60/hr to work a 40hr week, building those homes.

His response - it wouldn't be the same, I feel so much better while working on the homes that I know will help the poor.

PS: I happen to know that he isn't particularly gifted in the homebuilding area!

So, what's a well-paid engineer to do? Is he being selfish?

So?

Your claim in the first post is that altruism is immoral and against human nature. That is what I am addressing.

You are simply wrong.

If you think these things are immoral and against human nature, then you are saying that what the Mother Teresa and Ghandi did were unnatural and immoral. That's just ridiculously dumb.

Your defense is to muddy up the waters, regarding the actual definition of self interest and selfishness and selflessness.

And THIS is precisely why I told Fletch that I no longer use the term "self interest" but "individual interest"...because too many people like you don't understand the distinctive difference.

"Selfish" is the all consuming regard for oneself...without thought to the society and environment one lives in. Most people are selfish to varying degrees, some very much so, some hardly at all. Contrarily, the idea of altruism comes from having a "conscience"...that is, AWARENESS of these things around you, that you are interacting with.

"Self interest" on the other hand, refers to the fact that individual humans have complex minds with individual values...that is to say, we don't live by a "hive mind" mentality, like certain types of socialized insects, or like robots.

Thus, a person can be altruistic and that still stays within self interest...but that isn't immoral or against human nature. Your muddy definitions pervert the entire concept

And for every argument you give about missionaries and charity organizations gone ary, I can point towards things like the Tibetan monasteries that operated quite harmoniously and did nobody any harm.

"We claim altruism as a Value - but secretly value our affluence - setting ourselves up for guilt over our well-deserved high standard of living. So, the Joy of attaining our real value (earned through hard work and careful risk-taking) has to be hidden.

Perversely, we honor philanthropy over well-earned wealth. We seem to forget that the process of earning wealth is actually more difficult than the process of giving some of it away. The process of earning wealth also directly or indirectly contributes much more to 'society' than a wealthy person's philanthropy. So, why is Bill Gates reviled for earning billions (while revolutionizing the business world), but lauded for giving away a few millions?"

We...we...we...Questions and statements where you assume to speak for everyone are not even worth responding to. Speak for yourself. Speak for "some but not all" and if you can find a statistic, speak for a percentage...but don't be so careless as to speak for the nebulous "we". That's not a rational argument. It's a manipulation.

Altruism (ref: Inkshadow's post above)

I don't knock Mother Theresa and Gandhi for their individual choices and actions. Within the context of their chosen philosophy, they were exemplary, consistent practitioners.

I do, however, question the validity of altruism-based philosophies - without distinction as to whether they come from Catholicism (e.g. Mother Theresa) or Hinduism (e.g. Gandhi) - as being either fair or efficacious.

Incidentally, I have the same problem with non-religious altruism. So, this isn't an anti-religious position, but a consistently anti-altruism position. This is important, because many religious people believe (incorrectly) that altruism lies solely within their province. Political ideologies such as Socialism (and its big brother Communism) are also based on perverse altruistic principles.

FAIRNESS
Why is Altruism unfair?
Because it makes victims/slaves of one segment of the population while making parasites of the other. BTW, didn't we see this 'divide' in Soviet Russia - until the time when the slaves quit working and the whole hive collapsed?

What if people are voluntarily altruistic?
I've no problem with them personally, but if everyone dropped out of profit-making enterprises and went off to 'help the poor', there would be a lot more poor people!

On our planet, nothing is handed to us for consumption. And, humans will only work for themselves - otherwise Socialism would've been a great hit! Altruism can only exist if there are productive, selfish people around somewhere to provide 'funds' behind the blank check of altruistic people.

Personal note: in the 1980s, I had the oppty to visit Calcutta, India - the city in which Mother Theresa spent most of her life (from the 1940s through the 1990s).

As a visitor, I was struck by the unimaginable level of poverty and disease in Calcutta. It is far more visible in Calcutta than in the rest of India.

Not to take away from Mother Theresa's remarkable achievements (in the toughest of all environments), but semi-socialist India's policies were no match for her healing touch. You may be surprised to learn that the Communist Party of India is still the dominant party in Bengal, the state within which Calcutta lies.

EFFICACY
The salubrious effects of Capitalism on a city/state/country is tangible, even in a poor country like India. I haven't had a chance to visit India in recent times, but I've heard from people who have visited semi-capitalist areas such as Bangalore, a city in Southern India. I understand that it compares quite favorably with Calcutta, which is just a few hundred miles away!

Bill Gates (in his selfish, predatory, dollar-chasing incarnation, not as a philanthropist) has done a lot more for more people in India than Mother Theresa.

Despite all the fluff that surrounds the 'ideal' of altruism, it:
(a) doesn't accomplish very much
(b) relies on non-altruists to keep it afloat

So, why do so many people support an ideal that is UNFAIR and INEFFICIENT? Why is there an orgy of self-sacrifice in our world?

Inkshadow (Gandhi & Mother Theresa)

It is almost blasphemous to speak ill of great people such as Gandhi and Mother Theresa - but it is worth noting the following:

* Gandhi (and his ideological followers such as Nehru, the 1st Prime Minister of free India) were proponents of Socialism.

* From 1947 to 1991, India was Socialist - in no small part due to the ideological beliefs of Gandhi

* Poverty levels increased during that period, despite ambitious-sounding Five Year Plans (a hallmark of all Socialist countries)

One could make a connection between Gandhi's altruistic principles and the poverty that Mother Theresa fought altruistically with so much personal courage.

However, what has begun to change India for the better were the semi-Capitalist policies adopted in the wake of the post-Soviet era!

Hmm...okaaaaaaay

I think your entire view on this is unnecessarily complicated. What you're talking about, that you despise, is externally expected altruism, imposed either by force (as in Marxist ideas) or by simple guilt tripping.

I agree...but again...look at how this complicated view leads you to say something like "altruism is immoral and against human nature".

Now you said this:

"What if people are voluntarily altruistic?
I've no problem with them personally, but if everyone dropped out of profit-making enterprises and went off to 'help the poor', there would be a lot more poor people!"

I don't recall stating that anyone had to drop out of profit-making enterprises to be altruistic. Is there some reason why you must characterize it as such, and not acknowledge a harmony of both? You mentioned Bill Gates. He has donated more money to AIDS funding than the Federal Government has. He is both an entrepreneur AND a philanthroper.

"Despite all the fluff that surrounds the 'ideal' of altruism, it:
(a) doesn't accomplish very much
(b) relies on non-altruists to keep it afloat"

Pardon me if I don't just take your word for that. Seems to me like what it accomplishes and how it stays afloat probably has a lot to do with the focus and application...ie the difference between giving people fish and teaching people to fish.

And as far as relying on non-altruists...let's break that down a bit.

The whole point of distinguishing between selfish and altruist is to highlight the importance of the very obvious fact of human nature that:

1. people are aware of their environment, including other people, and have responses to it

2. that awareness varies in degree from individual to individual, and the responses also vary according to several factors.

This is the reason the hive-mind ideas of Marxism won't work, that Fletch has been talking about. Different needs, values, interpretations, and concerns.

However, it's also well known that voluntary cooperation can often be more effective than competition. People working together to make something happen.

Now, like you, I happen to favor capitalism, but for different reasons. Your praising of selfishness, greed and competition RELIES upon an agreed system of consensual exchange, which takes us back to the the idea of cooperation, and therefore an awareness and concern for one's surroundings. Otherwise, we'd still be living in an era of pillaging and barbarism. So in reality, altruism and non-altruism are somewhat symbiotic.

"So, why do so many people support an ideal that is UNFAIR and INEFFICIENT? Why is there an orgy of self-sacrifice in our world?"

Hasn't it occurred to you that there is more to the human experience than collecting money and material items? Some people find that to be incredibly empty. You have to give it all up when you die anyway, so why bother? Ideas about self-sacrifice relate to ideas about loyalty, honor, comraderie, compassion, and the desire to NOT be a parasite.

And be honest. One way or another we all make sacrifices. You sacrifice some of your income to feed and clothe your children, don't you? I bet you sacrifice a LOT more than that, in fact. Why? Why did you make the choice to have children and take on that responsibility? You've no guarantee that they'll take care of you when you're old, so what was in it for you? Am I to believe that you would put all that work and sacrifice into merely making sure your genes stay in society?...or is it possible that you wanted something NONMATERIAL out of the deal? To have a personal experience of compassion and loyalty and responsibility to another human? Virtually every choice involves a sacrifice. By choosing one thing, you sacrifice another. The money making enterprises you speak of require initial investments, time devoted to strategy, and work. These involve sacrifice. In terms of the market, I believe economists call this "opportunity cost".



Altruism: Simplicity

Inkshadow,

Thanks for an interesting discussion! I also appreciate the even tone of your responses. It makes it so much easire to focus on the topic when we can take opposing viewpoints without rancor.

I intend to respond to all your points, but would like to break it down into individual point-by-point responses - partly in the interest of time, but also since each one is an interesting facet of the overall discussion.

I hope that is OK with you?

VoR
-------------------------------------------------
Inkshadow: your entire view on this is unnecessarily complicated.

VoR: Here is my view, in one simple sentence: “Human beings are not altruistic”

I offer no qualifiers about internal/external expectations or mandates. Those who approach their philosophical positions via religion have to impose such qualifiers so as to reconcile their 'capitalist' views with the religious exhortations that unequivocally favor altruism.

Of course, those who drink the Marxist kool-aid lead with “Human beings MUST be altruistic”, which is also a simple, one-line definition – but completely wrong! Simplicity isn’t, by itself, a virtue if it comes at the expense of logical consistency or accuracy – which definitely ARE virtues.

Altruism: in harmony with profit-making

Inkshadow: I don't recall stating that anyone had to drop out of profit-making enterprises to be altruistic. Is there some reason why you must characterize it as such, and not acknowledge a harmony of both? You mentioned Bill Gates. He has donated more money to AIDS funding than the Federal Government has. He is both an entrepreneur AND a philanthroper.

VoR: When debating ‘world-views’ it is often useful to extrapolate to prove a point – and that is what I was doing (you caught me).

With that ‘confession’ out of the way, see if this makes sense:

Most of us have to budget our time and money. For those who work for a living, time = money, so we can use the terms almost interchangeably.

Since humans have a finite lifespan, every moment of our lives is spent (either consciously or unconsciously) making the following decision: is this the best way that I can spend this moment. Yes, this applies to leisure too, including the hours that we spend ‘blogging’ here at TH.

If you work for $100/hr, you value $100 as being worth more than or equal to one hour of your life – your employer, of course, sees the $100 as a good trade-off against the output of your work that he received for $100. The same applies when you spend money: you value the $10 in your pocket less than the lunch that you purchased, and the restaurant values your $10 more than the food they provided.

When you voluntarily donate $10000 to charity, you have effectively given them 100 hours of your life. You just made the ‘selfless’ decision that you had no better use for those 100hrs of your life.

Or, did you receive something intangible (e.g. spiritual or emotional satisfaction) in exchange? But if you did, isn’t that selfish?

Bill Gates certainly doesn’t have those constraints. You might say that “even Bill Gates has only 24hrs in a day”. Yes, but he has an army of paid staffers to administer his altruism via his trust.

Actually, the Bill Gates example would also be 'extrapolation', don't you think?

Altruism: and cooperation

Inkshadow: it's also well known that voluntary cooperation can often be more effective than competition. People working together to make something happen.

VoR: humans that band together to cooperate do so by mutual consent and for mutual benefit. Whether they huddle together for warmth in a cave or they form billion-dollar corporations, it is done by mutual consent and for mutual benefit.

Cooperation does not involve sacrifice, and is therefore not altruistic.

Defining sacrifice: it is the exchange of something of value for something of lesser value.

Altruism: don't we all sacrifice?

Inkshadow: You have to give it all up when you die anyway, so why bother?

VoR: see my previous point about the finiteness of human lives.

Inkshadow: One way or another we all make sacrifices. You sacrifice some of your income to feed and clothe your children, don't you? I bet you sacrifice a LOT more than that, in fact. Why? Why did you make the choice to have children and take on that responsibility? You've no guarantee that they'll take care of you when you're old, so what was in it for you? Am I to believe that you would put all that work and sacrifice into merely making sure your genes stay in society?...or is it possible that you wanted something NONMATERIAL out of the deal?

VoR: let me repeat the above definition:

Defining sacrifice: it is the exchange of something of value for something of lesser value.

A parent who drives an old car so that s/he can send a child to a good private school is NOT sacrificing.

Why?

Because s/he values the kid's education more than the 'new car smell'.

If s/he valued the new car MORE, then it WOULD be a sacrifice. If that sounds confusing, please examine it in the context of the definition of sacrifice.

My two cents worth

I haven’t gotten involved in the fray because I have been too busy defending other points and I wasn’t about to just drop in on a discussion by two intellects that I respect without giving the matter due consideration. But I’ve been on the sidelines long enough.

It seems to me that it all comes down to what constitutes “altruism”, whether or not it is exercised as a function of self interest, whether or not it is exercised at a level removed (impacting third parties), what criterion defines altruistic “success”, and whether or not the morality of altruistic behavior can be assessed on utilitarian grounds.

We’re all in agreement that self-interest is the most powerful force available to achieve economic and societal goals. Individuals needn’t be coerced in order to act in their own interests and three people like us prize liberty for its own sake. On the other hand, altruism, defined generally as a “selfless concern for the welfare of others” is typically lauded as a societal virtue. It is apparent that these concepts are in conflict.

Actually, I contend that altruism in this context DOES NOT EXIST – hence the conflict. It is my contention that ALL human behavior is in accordance with self interest even if that behavior involves sacrificing one’s own life (as that “cost” is deemed to be less valuable to the individual than the results of the act itself). Whether the trigger is described as morality or conscience or loyalty or friendship, the response to these motivations is still a function of the self-interest imperative.

So then we must examine “altruism” as it is referenced in PRACTICE and since we are not discussing (as a repeatable societal act) such things as diving on a live grenade, we are primarily discussing the charitable impulse. This needn’t be too constraining as it can cover everything from getting your significant other a drink (either because you care or because you wish to avoid the aggravation if you do not makes no difference) to donations of time and large sums of money to traditional charitable pursuits.

In this context, I cannot accept the premise that altruism is immoral, per se. Rather, as with any other function of self interest, the determination of morality rests upon whether or not the rights and privileges of others are infringed upon. And one cannot voluntarily become the “victim”; it is the imposition upon others that creates victims. Thus, the engineer who donates large amounts of time to Habitat for Humanity is acting in an entirely moral manner and the individual who responds to the demands of conscience by forcing others to give (or advocating that a third party require it) no matter how small the amount in question. It is this latter example that is “the leftist credo”.

Religion (and I use the term in the broad sense to include non-theistic and agnostic belief systems) serves self interest by giving something (self realization, justification, community, etc.) to the adherents to the faith and often provides an outlet for exercising the charitable impulse. Religions, of course, can act in an immoral manner as well (alas blind zealotry deludes some into believing otherwise) but they certainly needn’t do so. And, in the absence of coercion, asking the deer (parishioners) to walk only induces them to do so, even at times of great peril, if they perceive the benefit (heaven, perhaps, or, at minimum, serving the belief in that particular heaven) to outweigh the cost (getting there a whole lot sooner).

Thus the problem is never seeking the internal satisfaction or completeness or wellbeing of pursuing the impulse (even if others deem the act to be irrational), but the attempt to inflict one’s beliefs on others and the disconnect from reality that at once assumes that, because the act is perceived to be selfless, that it is either inherently good or effective and any failure can be attributed to the selfishness of others. To be fair, the assessment is essentially correct. The failure of such leftist initiatives inevitably stems from the inability of those advocating such policies to correctly assess the behavior of self interested individuals in any particular circumstance.

If, as I contend, altruism in practice is nothing more than the normal seeking of a certain emotional or intellectual reward, then it may be considered as if it were very similar to a form of entertainment. What you choose to do with your own resources to engage in activities that you find entertaining is your own affair. You are not, however, entitled to demand the resources of others to enjoy such pursuits; nor – as is relevant to the missionary example – are you justified in foregoing your responsibilities as citizens/parents/members of society in order to do so.

That just leaves the utilitarian argument. Is it more effective to contribute to society through productivity, or through sacrifice and charity? And is that a question of morality? Here the area gets a lot greyer. Obviously, since I have made the argument in the past that public charity is immoral (and private charity is not) on such grounds, I believe that it can, but only under very specific circumstances.

Heeding the charitable impulse is like firing a gun. The act itself is neither moral nor immoral in and of itself – what matters is the intent and the outcome. Let’s concede that, in general, the intent of charitable giving is not going to create a moral hazard. What matters then is the outcome and, more importantly, its predictability.

If I fire a gun and stop a crazed killer, that’s moral. If I fire a gun at a crazed killer and, due to circumstances I could not have predicted, a ricochet harms an innocent, the act was not immoral even though an innocent was harmed (accidents are not examples of immorality). If, however, I fire a gun into a crowd of innocents, it is inherently immoral because I know (or certainly should) that such an act would harm innocents.

If, on the other hand, I give to a reputable charity known for getting care to the truly needy, I have engaged in a moral act. If it turns out that an employee of the charity takes the money and skips to Costa Rica, I have not committed an immoral act unless I should have known that such a result would ensue. If, however, I insist on pushing government charity, in the face of the overwhelming evidence that such charity does far more societal harm than good, the act is immoral because there simply is no excuse for not knowing that public charity doesn’t work as advertised. I might be willing to concede that an individual who voluntarily siphons resources from productive means to spend on altruistic endeavors MAY meet this criterion, but it is not so clear cut.

The utilitarian argument about whether or not going to work for the Peace Corps or first improving oneself so that I might better contribute to society strikes me as solely a practical matter as it is likely that neither option is detrimental to society so much a one alternative is demonstrably better.

In the final analysis, I guess I agree with both of you. I would say that altruism as it is commonly defined does not exist. On the other hand I see the liberal tendency to embrace feelings over realities as a distinct failure distinguishable from the altruistic impulse (as a function of self interest) and thus side with inkshadow that altruism, in a practical sense, is not immoral, per se.

You will notice that I said:

VoR: Impossible (and actually immoral) altruistic 'ideals' are raised that are contrary to human nature.

I don't say that altruism is immoral - and, the difference is more than just semantic, as I elaborate below:

If altruism is put on a pedestal (rather than treated as a choice, e.g. entertainment, as Fletch notes - BTW, I agree), it becomes the Holy Grail, the touchstone of our policy.

For example, in the debate on Universal Health Care, the policy goal is stated altruisticly as "we must take care of everyone". Once that die is cast, the debate is effectively dead, and UHC is a foregone conclusion.

So, "we must take care of everyone" is an immoral ideal that derives from altruism.

Altruism itself, ehh .. that's one choice in the total spectrum of human activities. It isn't intrinsicly more or less valuable than any other pastime that gives joy to some and not to others.

It is, at best, a subjective value. And, as volitional creatures are wont to do, they reserve the right to change their definition of WHICH altruistic activities give them joy at any particular moment.

Voice

Ain't nuthin' wrong with altruism if it's voluntary. It's when you're told you gotta be altruistic or you're a bad person that I get my hackles up.

F1etch

I couldn't find one single word to disagree with. Maybe I could add something, but it would be redundant. Well said.

Altruism is an unlimited virtue

NOT!

CM (and others),

I agree with the voluntary/involuntary distinction.

However, in practice it is not enough because of the general acceptance of the dogma that 'altruism is an unlimited virtue'.

As long as altruism is revered to that extent, it is dangerous because it dictates our policy goals. You will notice that almost all debates on entitlements are framed along altruistic lines.

Is it any surprose that we find ourselves fighting a losing battle against welfare-statism.

More dangerously, even national security goals are now being framed along similar lines, e.g. "fighting for a better Iraq" .. or .. "spreading democracy in a troubled world".

PRAGMATIC arguments against entitlements are not enough. Our Leftward slouch will continue unabated, and we will always be the valiant rearguard that fights the good fight, but is vanquished by sheer numbers of 'do-gooders'. And, we will be branded as 'evil & selfish' to boot!

If you disagree, consider how many entitlements have been reduced or eliminated since the 1960s. Or, if you want to be really sick, consider how many have been added or expanded.

We need to win the argument on MORAL/PHILOSPHICAL terms in addition to PRAGMATIC terms. If we do, the tide will turn.

Otherwise, we will be the People's Republic of America in about 20 years.

Voice

I'm not disagreeing with you on anything except: Revered by whom? Certainly not by me and I refuse to be influened by people who try to shove it down my throat. If theyn they try, I just throw up on them - then they go away.

Altruism is revered by:

* Religious Leftists: whom I define as those that arrive at their Leftist positions as a result of the concept of unearned guilt (for the Original Sin of living in affluent America) AND/OR the general indoctrination wrt sacrifice and share.

* Secular Leftists: same as above, except they substitute the 'state' for God in their ideological reasons for why humans should sacrifice (read: be enslaved).

* Some conservatives who arrive at their conservatism via their religious beliefs. Note: many who lead with 'social' issues (not economics or issues related to American self-interest) tend to fall in this category.

I realize that there are those who make the distinction between voluntary & coerced altruism. But a belief system can be a difficult thing to shake!

Our religious leaders regularly encourage us to be altruistic. In a one-two punch, they also admonish us for our 'worldly' desires. While some of us can draw the line between the private & public spheres, there is a predisposition that inevitably carries across.

This makes us vulnerable to Leftist arguments - or at least to their rhetoric.

Witness the spectacle of a florid, overfed Sen Kennedy (or other Leftist) in populist high dudgeon, screeching that "We must tayk cayh of ouh people" as he launches support for the latest entitlement scam.

Now, consider that the conservative response is a weak "but your scheme doesn't work properly (and you are a drunk with questionable aquatic skills)." This allows the Leftist to dab a misty, unfocused eye and say "that's because people like you don't care enough for the working man".

From that point on, it is mostly downhill - with conservatives trying to staunch the bleeding, by fighting to whittle down the more egregious aspects of the entitlement.

This has happened before, and is happening again in the '08 campaign. The big issue to watch will be Universal Health Care.

My prediction: UHC will be the law of the land in 2009.

Opposing UHC will take more than "it doesn't work" counter-arguments. That is because it will seem like a panacea when it is 'sold' to the American public.

Personal note: As a business owner, I feel the pain of paying $250/mo/employee in health-insurance premiums and it is stupidly tempting to think of 'big momma Govt' stepping in a picking up the tab. But then, I also think about the huge amt of taxes that my business pays currently and imagine it going up by 20-30%.

Defeating UHC will take a mobilization of capitalists (def: everyone who lives off their labor or capital is a capitalist) in support of 'greedy' insurance companies, 'rich' doctors, 'profiteering' pharmaceutical companies etc.

Can you see Americans taking to the street, carrying picket signs in support of those 'selfish' baahstahds? I can't either!

Re: My two cents

That was fantastic! That could've been an essay of it's own.

I can speak from my own experience on this. The times that I have engaged in what many would consider a selfless act, I did for one of 3 reasons.

1. I recieved a feeling of satisfaction from doing it, call it a hit of feel good.

2. I did it hoping for a return on investment from the recipient(s) of my charitable act.

3. I did it to feel superior, or to gain praise and admiration form the recipient(s) and my fellow man. Basically projecting a false image of myself as a wonderful and caring human being!

Few would probably admit to 2 or 3, but I imagine many do it for those reasons.

I agree, true altruism doesn't exist.

One of many reasons why I have gotten out of the rendering judgment business. I can't say I'm always 100% successful in this endeavor, but I've realized in the past several years that I'm in no position to judge the behavior/choices (good, or bad) of others, since I don't have access to theit state of mind.

D'oh!!!

I coulda saved the effort of writing another column!

Ah, well.

I try to be to be nonjudgmental as well (and the Myers Briggs personality test seems to indicate that I succeeded. I do have little tolerance for nonsense...

...such as the argument that most graduate students are paid by the university when, in fact, Linux was developed by Torvalds as a 21-year old undergrad...

...but I promised not to go there....