Can't Elect a Mormon

Moving to this thread. Other is getting too big.

But, from memory, first, let me be clear: our physical bodies will be eternal, and will be physical in every sense of the word.

You assume much based on very sketchy and unclear, and definatly unsubsantiated references in the Bible, like being able to baptize the dead. Your assumtion of authority is not really Biblical either. You also assume Joe was telling the truth, despite loads of evidence against its likelihood. Finally, you assume that the factual details don't matter concerning the BoM. So, yes, you assume much.

You also claim to have a better understanding of the Bible. This is not so. You may have better memory of verses, but a better understandign of the Bible? I think not. I think not because you do not see many fallacies and discrepencies of your theories, such as Christ claiming to be I am, and God saying there are no other gods besides him. You fail to recognize the paradox presented by faith and works. Two examples to start. You simplify it to the point of distortion. When you take these together, and see what is being talked about and why with the other thoughts in mind, it is very clear you do not understand the Bible.

making a mountain out of a molehill in regards to history. Well, no, not really. First of all, history is terribly complex. Secondly, if we do not look at the faults we miss a huge part of any issue. For instance, taking the fact that many of the founders were slave holders (even reluctant) really changes the dynamics and puts some context to the development of the 19th century and essentially all US history.

Let's discuss, then, Joseph Smith. It is very telling that there are many (not just one, but many) question marks about his character. Utilizing tools of black magic, implicated in several fraudulent schemes (perhaps even charged in at least one), a developing story of how he came to know his truth, and secrecy behind his sexual advances among other questions really puts suspicion behind his authenticity.

Further, the spin your president put on the past to emphaisize the good and not the bad is evidence of the claim Mr. Lanborn made in regards to censorship. This stuff is pushed to the side, as if it matters not. Your church definately supresses this information.

Second thing you mentioned wsa humbleness. Sorry, but I do not see humbleness within your attitudes and posts. Constantly attacking, constantly avoiding, and consstantly saying simply you are right and I am wrong. On this note, your goal to become a god is certainly not a humble one, no matter how much rhetoric you put around it. I humble myself before my God. Nothing else matters. Sure, I stumble, but I cannot ever be equal to him. You think you can be. This is a huge difference.

V: let me be clear: our physical bodies will be eternal, and will be physical in every sense of the word.

GB: How can they be eternal if they are made of elements that were created from nothing. Or in other words had a beginning?

There is a contradiction there. Either the elements are eternal and there was no "ex nilo" creation or;

there was "ex nilo" creation and the elements aren't eternal.

Which is it?

Our bodies are created, and will last from now through eternity. I have no problem saying this. See, the play on words you creatively use is to take our use of eternity out of context. You also limit what God can do. So, God certainly can create something, and keep it with him forever. This is perfectly reasonable.

Nice try.

CLUE!!!

Eternal = without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing.

So the play on words is your doing not mine.

There is a contradiction there. Either the elements are eternal and there was no "ex nilo" creation or;

there was "ex nilo" creation and the elements aren't eternal.

Which is it?

You limit God.

It is entirely possible given God is involved.

He knew us from the beginning, but created us. God created all, including the angels! His knowing us is part of his omniscience, or do you not think he is omniscient?

Like it or not, this is truth, and it is not complicated.

V,

You are acting like a coward. Afraid to answer the question.

It is simple logic.

IF God created it from nothing then it didn't always exist and therefore isn't eternal.

So again, either the elements are eternal and there was no "ex nilo" creation or;

there was "ex nilo" creation and the elements aren't eternal.

Which is it?

And you claim that I attack you? You call me a coward, and this is OK? I love it.

I am not responding like a coward. I gave you my response, and you attack me, rather than my response.

But let me change the focus here. You believe that you keep your physical bodies, right? You believe you were not created, and are eternal, like the gods, right?

Explain for me Genesis 1:26-31. I'm not sure it can be any clearer: we are created. So, your argument really discredits your stance as well, and since this is a big part of your faith-- becoming a god-- if we aren't eternal, than neither are you, and neither can you become a god.

You are afraid to answer a simple question. I think someone who is afraid of a simple question qualifies as a coward.

I have never said we weren’t created. I have only claimed that we weren’t created from nothing.

Gen1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So God (the Father and the Son) clearly created man in Their image. But They didn’t create man from nothing.

Gen 2: 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen3: 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

So then if They “created” man from elements of the earth. Then They created the heavens and the earth from pre-existing material!!!

There is no Biblical support for "creatio ex nihlo". The whole idea is contingent on whether in the Hebrew Genesis 1:1 is a singular sentence or whether it is contingent upon the next verse as a subordinate clause. If you can find it I would suggest the article “The Initiation of Creation” by William R. Lane written in the journal “Vetus Testamentum” January 1963 (Volume 13. Fasc. 1 pp. 63-73).

Now, if you want to believe in "ex nilo" creation that is fine with me, but you should be willing to accept its implications.

So be brave now V and answer the question.

I am sorry you do not like my answer, but that is it. Call me what you will, but you are attacking me rather than my answer. So, please address my answer.

You yourself are saying that your theory is not settled, and you have no basis to assume (there you go, assuming again) that the universe came from something. God created us, plain and simple. We did not exist, no matter the form before God created us. If we were dirt before, we were just dirt. Just as a chair is just wood before it is made to a chair, or as a pot was just clay before it was made to a pot, or as a clock before all the parts come together.

Now, you have my answer, and have had it. So please refute it and address the claim.

Again, God created us, he knew us before he made us, as he is omniscient (he knows everything), but he still created us, ultimately from nothing. You rest on the assumption that the world came from something first.

And as I think about this issue, I don't think it will lead you anywhere, as we can get into the whole new v old earth theories and evolution even. If we are to take this to its logical conclusion, then god does not exist. We both know he does, so be careful.

Hope all is well.

Not a juvenile answer but a mature, reasoned answer.

Essentially, yes. You have my answer. Discuss it. Do not berate me with words like childish and cowardly when doing so.

Come down from your perch and discuss what I have to say instead of goading me into the response you want.

God created us after he created the world. He created the world from nothing, and us. You can argue he created us from dirt, as it does say so in Genesis. Though that dirt came from nothing. So, it is fair to say we came from nothing. Further, we were just dirt before, not humans. We did not exist before God created Adam.

This is my answer. So, stop playing games and discuss it or move on to another topic or end the conversation.

the elements are not eternal. Correct?

Again, I answered your question. Why don't you go back and read my answer and tell me what I have stated.

Do a little reading and critical thinking.

Am I still a coward by not playing by your rules?

Do you see what I mean when I say we have vastly different outlooks?

I guess you got frustrated and moved on.

God bless, gunlock. See you 'round.