FREEDOM OF RELIGION

You bring up some good points, but your modernistic philosophy is bereft of historical accuracy or substance. For e.g. this is only one of a multitude of faith statements made by our founders, supreme court justices throughout the nineteenth century, and a host of other influential Americans....

" Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." - George Washington

Freedom from religion can be found in late Communist Russia, and in the continuing human rights violations of China. Yes it is true that in the annals of history people holding religious power abused others, but that was not necessarily the fault of religion, or that religion per se, but with the abusers. Non-religious activists have done much worse.

Religion has always been a part of humanity (AND IT MUST BE PUBLICLY EXPRESSED). Your sex privacy metaphor is bogus. A true metaphor would be comparing religion to the wedding ceremony -openly vowed and expressed!.

Interestingly, the more Pagan Rome in the past tried to suppress Christianity, the more it flourished. The more present day Communist China tries to vanquish the gospel, the more people are converted to the Christian Faith.

Furthermore, each nationality and ethnic group (since time immemorial) is usually distinguished by a particular religion, viz., Catholic Spain, Hindu India, Muslim Arabia, etc..

In America that distinction always was and still is "Judeo-Christian". It is too well rooted, and isn't going to change!

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfm3xzhs_1v9f399fw

I'm glad you read the post, your writing only reveals & makes my point: you want your view of life upheld over the views of other pluralistic Americans who don't believe the same as you.

You negate the development of society by thinking that because views once held must always be held.


You want ownership, it's why you espouse such, ownership, you believe, gives you the right to impose on others through laws, legislators, the courts or bully majority votes.

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson

It's quite amusing how those who desperately look for evidence under every philosophical stone in an effort to deny America's Christian heritage will so quickly resort to Thomas Jefferson; and so nonchalantly by-pass the wisdom of other founding Father's on the matter. But since we are cherry picking Jeffersonian quotes, what about this one:

"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815 (And what religion was that T.J.?)

Jefferson never denied America's religious depth and ingrained Christian makeup. He ever affirmed it. What he did object to, and swore eternal hostility against, were the schemes of any one denomination trying to manipulate the government into favoring their peculiar dogmas, or intolerance toward law abiding free thinkers by any particular religious community. We all applaud his perspicacity and courage in opposing such foolishness, and his articulate skills in highlighting this important constitutional feature of true religious freedom (and freedom from religion) for all Americans.

It should be duly noted that Christian heritage advocates are not negating, or ever tried to negate, the positive contributions made by non-Christians to America's liberties and qualities (as you accuse). All citizens have either been free (or have been set free) to believe or disbelieve as each may choose; are free to speak their opinions and engage in verbal dissent as each may choose. And we firmly agree that such an exercise of freedom, properly expressed, is likewise beneficial to America's character. We (of the Judeo-Christian faith) only claim ownership of, and refuse to allow revisionists to negate, that which is historically and currently true. To wit:

With all of its' pluralism (secular and religious), America is predominately rooted in, and abundantly influenced by, Christianity in almost every aspect of her culture! This is documented fact. IT IS NOT MERE OPINION, as some would argue. And by the grace of God we trust, whatever challenges and oppositions may be forthcoming, that she will continue to be so rooted and so influenced. This we do rightly hold to.

"Woe unto any nation that forgets or forsakes its' true heritage." ~Wisdom of the Ages

Thanks again for responding.

The bottom line still remains that my point is made very clearly: you have a derivation for deciding how your life should be lived & "believe" that everyone else should be living it, too.

So much so to this extent, that like liberals, you want to control others by any means necessary in order to get it to happen - if that's law, legislation, identifying the nation, defining things for others, the courts or bully votes.

I take no issue with your stance, you believe what you believe, but your opposition to my article & comments is evidence enough that freedom for you is only free when others make the choices you think they should make.

Well, this is hypocrisy, contradiction, control & manipulation.

Not giving people a choice is control.

Religion is but one philosophy in this world. Your religion & the people who propagate it have put into your head that it is "the word", it is the inerrant word.

Science has a method, the scientific method, which seeks its own falsification - to find where the flaw is in order to find where it is wrong. Religion never thinks it's wrong. What is the nature of something that tries to convince you that you're never wrong if you "believe" it?

Question the motivations of those who espouse religion/god for the self-interest they seek.

Freedom never questions because it seeks only more freedom.

It would be interesting for you to answer the question: if religion didn't exist would you still be "a good person"?

Would I be a good person if religion didn't exist?

Religion doesn't make good persons, Gregory, that comes from grace. Religion just reminds us of those things that are important to us, our devotion to God, and our responsibilities with each other. Without religion we would live in the vacuous and illusionary world you seem to advocate. A vacuum that gets filled with all kinds of ever changing deceptions and manipulation. Case and point - Communist States.

You really need to stop this false spin nonsense that is characterizing your debating style:

" I take no issue with your stance, you believe what you believe, but your opposition to my article & comments is evidence enough that freedom for you is only free when others make the choices you think they should make. Well, this is hypocrisy, contradiction, control & manipulation. Not giving people a choice is control."

Anyone with intellectual honesty reading my posts can see that your above statement is false and desperate, and what appears to be paranoia. Since you are starting to use such tactics, this can only mean that you are either disingenuous or really just mixed up. You leave me with no choice but to end this discussion and let you happily ride on your own merry-go round of circular reasoning. Hope you're not to dizzy when you get off.

Let freedom Ring!

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death." ~Wisdom of the ages

Again, you attribute who you are from a source(s) outside yourself. This is the development of dependence & not self-reliance, self-governance.

Your statement, again reveals, "without religion" which means you do "believe" that without religion you could not be who you are - which borders then on behavior, that of a sociopath that needs to be controlled - which I'm sure you're not intending.

No doubt any American who upholds freedom would infringe on your freedom to believe your derivations for life's philosophy. It is the religious position, however, that does not extend the same freedom.

As each of your posts continue to reveal.

It is not the business of the religious to decide how others should live, yet they, like liberals, will not mind their own business.

If they wanted to mind their own business, then they both would get gov't out of all social issues & support freedom.

Neither do. How do you know this? By the laws, legislation, majority votes, the courts - all seek to impose by writ someone's moralizing of the world.

We do not live in a democracy where the bully/gang like behavior of a majority decides the fate of all others.

"And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, indivisible with liberty & justice for all"

yes, god was interjected by fear & writ as our founders would have none of that - if they did, they would have stated such in our charter - the Constitution.

I do find it interesting that you want to call my stance paranoia.

Where is the paranoia in seeking freedom for every human being to live his life as he sees fit without the demands for subjugation by yourself or any person of religion?

Not giving people a choice IS manipulation & control.

Thinking that your way of viewing life is the ONLY way & MUST be lived, is you being myopic & controlling.

Again, you do not assimilate the understanding of "subjective" so it creates illusions to you about what is real in this world & what is not. You "believe" your opinions are facts, when in fact, they are not - they are simply opinions.

When does an opinion become a fact? When it is proven with evidence. No less than what you would demand of your life should it be on trial in a court of law.

Why heavens sakes, these anti-christian blogs are all alike: Erroneous, annoying, filled with insults, and make believe arguments. It seems the rise of atheism is coming like a black plague. True believers who stand against it will be victorious.

I see a number of things contributors need to be wary of concerning this blogger (and probably a host of others that will follow):

1)projects own failings on those who disagree.

2) Doesn't respond to comments in a way that does credit for the bloggers cause, or lack of cause. (Shifts, jumps, redirects- no rhyme or reason).

3)Needs to prove something; has a pre-set agenda and pre-conceived anti-sentiment notions about religion. It seems, especially Christianity.

When will men learn that true and permanent freedom comes from above. That is why America is free today. It comes from the Creator.

"When will men learn that true and permanent freedom comes from above."

do you not see that this is a subjective statement from you?

do you understand the difference between subjective & objective?

do you understand between fact & opinion?

btw - the word Creator means many things to many people - it's why it embraces ALL HUMANKIND because each can decide for self - freedom to decide.

you give it one meaning and think everyone else should give it the same meaning.

freedom is in every one of us, taken away by those who seek to limit choice in order to control because of self-interest; because of subjective opinion about "their" creator over another's.

and once again, you don't even answer the question: would you still be the person you claim to be if religion/god didn't exist?

you won't answer because you know that if you answer yes, then it negates the need for religion/god as you would act as you do already

if you answer no then you admit you border on being a sociopath because you are incapable of not infringing on another's freedom without your crutch.

so, you, like so many other religious people, take the dodge instead.