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Comment on: Gray Ghost Country

Foreign "Hackers" Have Penetrated the US Electrical Grid Controls

50 Comments
Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 10:23 AM Mrs. AL (Always Learning) writes:

Gray Ghost

I believe you nailed it ... WW IV. I was aware of some of this information but the links and details you provided are well worth the read.

I hope all who visit here will take advantage of this most significant information.

Thanx for putting this up.
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Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 11:48 AM Gray Ghost writes:

No Problem Mrs. AL

As an electrical engineer, this is of great interest to me. This info is well worth reading about.
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Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 11:50 AM BrianR writes:

I read the article, too


Raised some interesting concerns.

Over the years, when flying around (I'm a pilot), I've often thought that our infrastructure is very thinly defended. For instance, while tooling around SoCal, I can freely fly right over rivers and reservoirs, and in fact it's pretty hard to avoid doing so.

There'd be absolutely nothing in the world to stop me from throwing a vial of some chem or bio agent out of the window of the plane right into the reservoir, and no one would be the wiser.

For that matter, I could mount an aerosol dispenser to the plane, and fly right over densely-populated areas, spraying away with whatever my evil little heart desired.

As an engineer, you know that the more complex a system is, the more potential vulnerabilities it has. We have a VERY complex system in this country, particularly as to infrastructure.

Frankly, I consider it impossible to effectively protect; far too many points of vulnerability.

The upside is that it's also large and complex enough that it would be very hard to completely cripple; many redundancies.

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Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 12:19 PM Gray Ghost writes:

BrianR

Complexity = Vulnerability

You are so correct. That is one of the reasons I am so interested in the "shipping" of electricity via the "ether". Then all you have to protect are the electric power production plants. The "electrical grid" is HIGHLY vulnerable and so complex as to be understandable only by engineers with advanced training in computers, relaying, surge studies, metering, transfomer design, breaker design, and line design.

Mississippi is less vulnerable in the domestic water field. Most of our water is not obtained from surface water sources. Water wells are more easily protected.

However, in California, the surface water sources are so large as to prevent 99.9999% of potential contaminates from having any effect.

If I were a terrorist, I would go after the electrical grid. Coordinated attacks at a very vulnerable location (Line crossings of the Mississippi River for example) could cause serious problems.
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Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 12:34 PM Pen Captain writes:

100% right GG

God bles you for this timely-and correct post! Joe Biden says we are "safer" now--yeah right.
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Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 12:48 PM BrianR writes:

True, Ghost


As I said, it's always interested me, too.

I don't think our surface water storage sites are as impervious as you imply. A self-replicating agent (probably bio) would surmount that problem.

Further, how many would you have to hit to wreak havoc?

Terror isn't really based on attack effectiveness. It's fear-based. For example, how much true damage to our system was really caused by the Twin Towers on 9/11? Hardly a ripple.

But the fear factor was huge, and very effective.

As to ether-based transmission of power, it seems to me its Achilles Heel is vulnerability to EMPs. I'm not an electrical engineer, but it seems to me that by its nature its vulnerability would be greater by orders of magnitude compared to wire transmission.

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Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 12:56 PM Gray Ghost writes:

Pen Captain

Thanks for stopping by. I have not seen you here before.

Joe Biden says we are safer? Yeah, right; and I have bridge property in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.

Even worse, is that not only are we not safer; but I believe that the danger is increasing exponentially. The electrical grid is an increasingly vulnerable target. A target that is over 75 years old in some places and "rusting away". Fewer and fewer electrical engineers have any concept of the design, construction, operation, and maintenance of the grid outside a computer. This reliance on a vulnerable "link" (i.e., the computer and the internet) places the US in a vulnerable position.
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Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 1:16 PM Gray Ghost writes:

BrianR, Interesting Question

"As to ether-based transmission of power, it seems to me its Achilles Heel is vulnerability to EMPs. I'm not an electrical engineer, but it seems to me that by its nature its vulnerability would be greater by orders of magnitude compared to wire transmission."

Perhaps, field studies were never my strong suit. But think about this: Is it possible that transmission via the ether would be invulnerable to anything but the destruction of the entire earth? Theft from the "ether" might be much easier; but an attack from EMP's might require the attacker to commit suicide? The sheer size of the "ether" might require the size of the EMP to be so large that the earth's destruction would be required to do any damage.

You could conceivably cause a "spike" locally from a small EMP, but the damage would be slight and corrected almost instantaneously by the "unaffected" ether surrounding this area.

Perhaps I am completely wrong. As I said field studies were never my strong suit. But I do know this: If you "impinge" a magnetic field (instantaneously) onto an extremely large coil, the extremely large size of the coil diminish the effects of the instantaneouly impinged field. (I.e., an ant cannot effect an elephant)
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Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 1:24 PM Gray Ghost writes:

BrianR, A self-replicating agent

That is another problem; but wouldn't a biological agent (such as a virus) have to be vulnerable itself to chemical agents such as chlorine?

All water supplies in the US (except for a very small number) use chlorine as a disinfectant agent. Consider: water is pumped from the surface supply, treated to remove dirt and chemicals, and then is pumped into the water distribution system. But just before it goes into the distribution system it is chlorinated. The water distribution system must also maintain a "residual" level of chlorine thru out the system.

The chlorine should "kill" the biological agent.
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Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 1:29 PM BrianR writes:

I don't know, Ghost


Again, you're obviously better than I on electricity. I'm thinking this on EMPs: even if the event effect is localized through dissipation or absorption, the nearby devices being operated are going to be impacted by the power surge of the EMP.

So a well placed pulse -- say, near a government facility or financial center -- would have the potential to fry all the circuits of those nearby devices.

It wouldn't take much, either, as those devices run on micro-currents. As you know, even minor spikes of static electricity can fry a computer circuit; that's why you have to have grounding and other anti-static measures in place when working on those devices.

You couldn't harden the buildings containing the devices, because they have to be permeable to the initial and desired ether-based power transmission, so it has its own inherent strategic weakness by its very nature.

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Wednesday, April, 08, 2009 1:36 PM BrianR writes:

Ghost


Chlorine in the concentrations used for potable water isn't universally effective as an anti-biological agent.

Further, it would obviously be completely ineffective against non-bio agents, some of which have incredible lethality potential even in small concentrations.

Again, I never worked in that area, so all I know is what I've read in publications readily accessible to all, but water supply is a very vulnerable target.
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Thursday, April, 09, 2009 2:15 AM sgt.stryker writes:

GG

I was dismayed when I heard this on FNC last nite. Especially alarming, IMHO, is the fact that the hackers may have left software that they can trigger in the future that may disable our comm preceding a military/nuclear attack.

Rule #1...when possible, disrupt gov't communications. Straight out of the espionage playbook. Can you imagine the chaos if all of the tv/phone/radio/electrical grids go out?

There better be a plan B.
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Thursday, April, 09, 2009 7:27 AM Gray Ghost writes:

BrianR: Part 1

"So a well placed pulse -- say, near a government facility or financial center -- would have the potential to fry all the circuits of those nearby devices."

Brian, the facility is "hardened", so anything inside is safe. The "service entrance", with the receiver, is outside the building and has TVSS equipment (shunts all spikes to ground). The wires going inside are thereby protected from any "spikes" coming inside (it is easy to protect wiring with shielding).

The service entrance equipment would be the ONLY equipment that would see the "EMP". It would have to be protected from the "EMP", but would be the only device at the facility so protected.

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Thursday, April, 09, 2009 7:36 AM Gray Ghost writes:

BrianR: Part 2

"Chlorine in the concentrations used for potable water isn't universally effective as an anti-biological agent.

Further, it would obviously be completely ineffective against non-bio agents, some of which have incredible lethality potential even in small concentrations."

Brian, I only know of a "few" viruses and bacteria that are not harmed by chlorine (3 or 4 at most). Even though I am a certified water and sewer system operator in Mississippi, I am not an expert in this field. A good friend of mine works at the State Dept. of Health. I will ask him about this.

As for "non-biological agents" (arsenic, etc.), you would still have to get them in the water distribution system not the water reservoir to have a concentration to do damage. That would mean a pumping system (to overcome system pressure) and an injection point. These are not that easy to find or to do, undetected.
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Thursday, April, 09, 2009 7:43 AM Gray Ghost writes:

Sgt. Stryker

"Rule #1...when possible, disrupt gov't communications. Straight out of the espionage playbook. Can you imagine the chaos if all of the tv/phone/radio/electrical grids go out?

There better be a plan B."

I hope so (Plan B). Right now we are in the position of having to start "securing" tv/electrical systems. Radio is much easier. Unless an "EMP" "fries" the transmitter and receivers, you just start transmitting after the attack.

Telephones are not my field. I am not sure about those.

Small towns will probably "ride" out this type of attack. Large cities, I am not so sure.

Either way, this is serious.
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Thursday, April, 09, 2009 11:58 AM BrianR writes:

Ghost


Well, as I wrote, I defer to your expertise on the electrical issue, and good to hear it's solveable.

Gotta say, though, as you yourself note, there are a few viruses that are impervious.... and it only takes one.

Further, though I obviously don't know details, I DO know for a fact that at Ft. Dietrich we work on all kinds of esoteric bio and chem agents for warfare apps, and those are obviously not going to be defeated by standard operational procedures. And if we're doing it, you can bet your bottom dollar others are, too.

And, of course, none of this solves the problem of simply strapping an aerosol dispenser on the bottom of a Cessna 172 and flying over an urban area at 2,000 feet.
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Thursday, April, 09, 2009 8:32 PM clyde writes:

Gray Ghost

"Has WW IV started"? No,but it sure as hell looks as if the seeds are planted. Just need to make sure they don't sprout. Easier said than done,I think.Interesting post on a subject I would think has not even made a ripple on Obama and crew. They would most likely turn the investigation over to the U-f-ing-N anyway. Or,as he said today when asked about the Somali pirates,"We are talking about housing".Translation: Obama to the Captain and crew of the Maersk Alabama: "Sorry,boys,you're on your own".
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Friday, April, 10, 2009 2:35 PM buck writes:

WWIII Began 9/45

The "Cold War" was the opening shots of WWIII. The "Cold War" consisted of communism probing for weaknesses and strengths in capitalist/democratic countries.
Destruction of the wall in Berlin was read wrong by the free world. The west celebrated the end of the "Cold War" erroneously believing the end of the communist agenda was also achieved.
Not so.The end of the "Cold War" was the communist movement merely shifting into the next gear.
The communist movement learned through the "Cold War" that they could not win WWIII through military might or economic competition. The communists did learn that through infiltration into schools and government was the best, if not the only way to defeat the West.
We have been in WWIII for over 60 years. The first phase is over. And we learned nothing.
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Friday, April, 10, 2009 3:28 PM buck writes:

World War III Pt 1

World War III began with the destruction of the Axis forces in 1945. The "Cold War" was the period of time of the communist bloc probing the Western strength and resolve. The first test came with the Berlin Blockade and the West's answer with the great Airlift.
The second test came in 1950 with the communist aggression in Korea. But again this was merely a probe erroneously interpreted as a regional land grab by a small time communist regime, not a test by the larger powers using a small regime as a pawn. This test was met by a free world resolve and the communists learned two lessons: 1. They were going nowhere against the free world militarily; and 2. the free world alliance was relied on by the strongest of the free world countries as necessary assistance in combating global communism. So the communist movement set out to destroy the Western alliances. The roundabout method was first to infiltrate education systems so a generation of the free world could be "brainwashed" and then another theater of conflict wherein the newly indoctrinated 'students' could work to undermine American will and resolve.
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Friday, April, 10, 2009 3:31 PM buck writes:

World War Pt 2

Gooood Morning Vietnam! Destroy America's resolve to defend an ally and you destroy America's alliances worldwide. So we promise South Vietnam of our aid for however long it takes then after our assurances, the "useful idiots" begin agitating for withdrawl. Communist infiltration into the education system coinsides with the "dumbing down" of Americans as well as the socialism of thought. America bowed under the pressure of a small minority of the population and bend with thewind politicians and picked up and left an ally alone and without support or aid. Not content with deserting one enemy, the same ruse was again used and American bend with the wind politicians came together and the Shah of Iran was overthrown by radicals hostile to Western traditions and ideals. But let's do it again so after Desert Storm we encouraged the Kurds to rise up against their oppressors. They did but we did nothing and they were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands. Today European nations are reluctant to ally themselves with America in the War on Terror...or any other American led endeavor. And everyone is scratching their heads and wondering why Europe does not want to become an American ally.
World War III began in 1945 and in 65 years the communists have managed to infiltrate our educational system as well as our government and destroyed the trust our former NATO allies had for us.
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Friday, April, 10, 2009 3:44 PM buck writes:

World War III Pt 3

Divide and conquer.

finis
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Friday, April, 10, 2009 3:53 PM buck writes:

Now to your question...

We gavethem control of the Pananma Canal.
We gave them control of our seaports.
They now have the capabilities to sabatage our electrical grid.


Our only allies now are the AnZacs because the Brits have become deferential to their muslim minority.

We're in a world of doo-doo..
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Sunday, April, 12, 2009 7:14 AM davecatbone writes:

So Ghost

How hard is it for them to get rid of the programs left behind in the system?
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Monday, April, 13, 2009 7:04 AM Sgt Relic writes:

Timing is strange

I noticed last night that IBM is running commercials hyping smart grids and advocating for them to control everything under the sun.

Full integration makes a system efficient but also increases vulnerability. It's a big system with lots of places to hide. Size can be an enemy. Evidence the fact that my blog roll editor hasn't worked since the TH change took place a year ago last Feb.

I've been watching the updates on the conflickr worm. That little jewel looks very much like a test run to me. It is a very slick piece of code streaming in one bit at a time using a peer to peer network structure to invade.

These attacks really argue for compartmentalization and the retention of the ability to disconnect and go local in the event of cyber attack. JMO.
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Monday, April, 13, 2009 11:56 AM Pen Captain writes:

Gray Ghost

Yeah-I am a new blogger here-I just cannot stand to see all the crap washington-led by their party -is diong to our nation--you have another culture warrior on your side.
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Tuesday, April, 14, 2009 10:36 AM Gray Ghost writes:

buck

"We're in a world of doo-doo.."

Amen. But events in the world lead me to believe that we might have reached a "turning point" in this war for the "hearts of men".
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Tuesday, April, 14, 2009 10:38 AM Gray Ghost writes:

davecat

"How hard is it for them to get rid of the programs left behind in the system?"

Not sure, davecat. My sources tell me that some "control programs" might have to be deleted due to the "viruses" embedded.
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Tuesday, April, 14, 2009 10:41 AM Gray Ghost writes:

Sarge

"These attacks really argue for compartmentalization and the retention of the ability to disconnect and go local in the event of cyber attack. JMO."

I believe that you are correct. Several TVA power distributors and several generating municipalities in Mississippi are doing just what you recommend. TVA has not said what they plan to do. I am also not sure about Alabama, Louisiana, and Arkansas.
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Tuesday, April, 14, 2009 10:42 AM Gray Ghost writes:

Pen Captain

Thanks for stopping by.

Welcome to the fight.
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Tuesday, April, 14, 2009 11:04 AM sloandog writes:

But China and Russia are our friends.Not

So can anyone explain to me why China owning our debt is a good thing?They would back stab us in a NY minute.What do you think will happen when our currency is drastically devalued by this congress and administration.China and Russia will call for a new monetary standard and we will be left out in the cold.We are being attacked from so many points and this administration is abetting the process.
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Tuesday, April, 14, 2009 11:13 AM Gray Ghost writes:

sloandog

Or worse, China and Russia will demand payment for our debts that they own.

Or worse, they will use our debts as a "barginning chip" with the Obama Administration.

etc.
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Wednesday, April, 15, 2009 1:19 PM bob's my uncle writes:

Hey Ghost

I agree that cyber attacks on our infrastructure are very troubling, and a successful attack rendering our nation defenseless may spell our doom. I am equally concerned about the attacks our own government is making on the Constitution and the history of this great nation. They are trying to fundamentally change the foundation of this country. When THEY succeed, will my country be worth defending?
Don't know if you've been by the Grill lately. I have a 1934 cartoon up that could be in today's paper.


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Wednesday, April, 15, 2009 10:30 PM Jim writes:

Here's The Real Threat

Most Cyber Crime originates from Russia, China, Turkey and Nigeria.The stuff from Nigeria is pretty bush league. Turkey is more sophistacated. China and Russia are extremely sophistacated and could cause catastrophic problems. Imagine this, with our economy as vulnerable as it is, a hacker breaks in to the Federal Reserve. All exchange is shut down for several hours. The dollar plumets on world markets. Total amrket colapse in a couple hours.

The problem is that we spend money on pet pork, not enough on things like web security. It's really scary.
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Thursday, April, 16, 2009 8:21 AM Gray Ghost writes:

bob's nephew

"When THEY succeed, will my country be worth defending?"

What you and I have to do is to make sure they don't succeed.

I will be by in a little bit.

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Thursday, April, 16, 2009 8:24 AM Gray Ghost writes:

Jim

"The problem is that we spend money on pet pork, not enough on things like web security. It's really scary."

The reason is that are entire US Congress is more interested in "lining" their pockets instead of taking care of the business at hand. It is scary.
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Thursday, April, 16, 2009 4:06 PM Sue writes:

Gray Ghost

Hey, nothing to see here...just move along. They got into the grid, not worries here.

Gee, I am surprised they are not miffed that this might push back their "green" ideas.

I think that China and Russia are to be feared with the technology. But India is not really slacking either.

I am sure homeland security is on this, right? Isn't Janet doing her job? Oh wait, she is defending a ridiculous report. Oh sorry!
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Thursday, April, 16, 2009 5:22 PM Gray Ghost writes:

Good One Sue!

"I am sure homeland security is on this, right? Isn't Janet doing her job? Oh wait, she is defending a ridiculous report. Oh sorry!"

Yes, it does appear that our "PC" DHS is now going after my uncle (78 years old, retired col. USAF; Silver Star, Bronze Star, etc.). It does make one proud that Janet has discovered that my uncle is a threat and the Radical Islamists are not to be worried about.
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Thursday, April, 16, 2009 6:55 PM Bobbie writes:

Just about everything

we read now days either makes us mad or scares our socks off. this does both. Thanks, (I think) for clarifying what we need to be aware of. Good post as usual, GG.
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Friday, April, 17, 2009 12:39 PM Mrs. AL (Always Learning) writes:

Ok, Gray Ghost

I have done my best to follow the discussions in your thread. So if you have addressed this please accept my apologies:

Bottom line … if you had the resources, manpower and authority, what would you do to address this situation? Remember, I am a schmuck and don’t have your background – lol.
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Friday, April, 17, 2009 7:27 PM Sgt Relic writes:

Ghost

All things being considered it's probably just as well that TVA doesn't make public what they plan to do. That would be too easy.
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Saturday, April, 18, 2009 12:03 AM Sue writes:

Gray Ghost

Yep, I feel so safe with Janet, especially after the words coming out is that the report was not to be released and it got released accidentally. Well, isn't that swell.

By the way, where was the "Grid Czar" with the hackers? Probably joining hands and singing with the others!!!

OH super!!!!
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Saturday, April, 18, 2009 8:21 AM Gray Ghost writes:

Bobbie

"Thanks, (I think) for clarifying what we need to be aware of. Good post as usual"

My only hope is that certain engineers I know and know about are "deep" into the changes in "controls" programming needed to eliminate this problem.

Trouble is, I only know those engineers in the Southeatern US. I am not sure what is happening in the rest of the US.
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Saturday, April, 18, 2009 8:38 AM Gray Ghost writes:

Mrs. AL

"Bottom line … if you had the resources, manpower and authority, what would you do to address this situation? Remember, I am a schmuck and don’t have your background – lol."

Interesting question. First, I would go to complete localized controls. In other words, set up areas across the US that could stand on their own (if necessary). To me "Grid Integrity" is not essential.

Second, no internet connections to the control programming. (Eliminate all outside connections to the controls.)

Third, each area should set up "load shedding" within its own area to protect the generation "on line" at the time the problem occurs. (This keeps generating facilities in operation during and after the problem.)

Fourth, all controls must be protected from "EMP". This in and of itself will take a minimum of 5 years and be very expensive. But in the event of an "EMP" attack, right now we lose everything.

Mrs. AL, that is the barest of answers. Your question borders on being a PhD thesis.

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Saturday, April, 18, 2009 8:41 AM Gray Ghost writes:

Sgt Relic

"All things being considered it's probably just as well that TVA doesn't make public what they plan to do. That would be too easy."

My sources in TVA say that the problem is being worked on right now. (I worked for TVA in the late 1970's and early 1980's.)

TVA can be very "quiet" when it wants to be.
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Saturday, April, 18, 2009 8:44 AM Gray Ghost writes:

Sue

"Yep, I feel so safe with Janet, especially after the words coming out is that the report was not to be released and it got released accidentally. Well, isn't that swell."

Safe with Janet?, yeah I know what you mean. I am buying more ammo today and looking for a stainless steel revolver for my son-in-law.

Frankly I wouldn't trust Janet with a burnt-out match.
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Tuesday, April, 21, 2009 2:15 PM dawndawn writes:

Or Could They Be

the new White House plumbers! It`s all about control. First electricity and then water.

The power grids and dams and reservoirs do make very tempting targets for radical extremists, Gray Ghost. I have no clue what to do to protect this infrastructure! I doubt there is anything in the porkulus or "budget" that addresses these concerns. A very scary post!
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Tuesday, April, 21, 2009 4:46 PM Gray Ghost writes:

dawndawn

"I doubt there is anything in the porkulus or "budget" that addresses these concerns. A very scary post!"

As far as I know there is NOT anything in the stimulus pakage to address this. However, the feds are now advertising for "hackers" to work for the US government and help set up protection (sort of like "To Catch a Thief").

Thanks for stopping by.
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Wednesday, April, 22, 2009 11:20 AM Eric writes:

Gray Ghost

It's amazing what one can do on the internet if they try hard enough. Let's hope that our electrical plants are safe, because an attack on the plants could render many helpless and/or defenseless against terrorists, especially if they had built and detonated an EMP.

Good post.
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Wednesday, April, 22, 2009 1:02 PM Gray Ghost writes:

Eric

"especially if they had built and detonated an EMP"

I would assume that the "sleeper" progams would be run before an EMP attack. Our enemies would want to disrupt all communications and electrical power BEFORE detonating an "EMP". (At least I would do it that way.)
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Thursday, April, 23, 2009 2:06 PM Sue writes:

Gray Ghost

Did you hear Janet babbling about Canada? Yeap, lets say the highjackers got in from you.

How about this, how about we secure our borders. Now wouldn't that be something.

And someone do something with all of the hacking. Hello, we need protection here people. Oh we probably have to spend the money on the party favors for the 100 day celebration. Swell!

You know I was not a big fan of Chertoff. At times, I called him a few names, but good grief, he is sooooo much better than this woman Janet.
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