Why do the People Plot a Vain Thing?

May God grant it to me! So good of you to mention Daniels prayer!!!

Dan 9:
18O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

19O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

Not for our righteousness, but for thy great mercies! For thine own sake, for thy people are called by thy name!


We also see the humility and understanding of David in his prayer of Ps 51:

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


David,a man after God's own heart (Act 13:22). When the Spirit convinces us of our condition (John 16:8), then we can know this kind of humility. Until then we will trust in the "arm of flesh" and be "cursed" (Jer 17:5).


Jonah 2:8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

many of us have been suppressors. Perhaps we Christians should remember the parable of the two men praying before pointing out the sins of others.

Certainly not all of Obama's decisions could be considered righteous. Take the stem cell decision. But what many people did not care about was that these were stem cells that were being disposed of. Where was our protest?

And I don't care for Obama's abortion stance. But how many unborn or newly born Iraqi children died because of our foreign policies?

The Church isn't a shrine where a nation worships the shrine until the gods are pleased and respond with blessings. That isn't true religion, that is superstition.

The culture reflects the state of the church. As theology goes so goes the culture. Do you know Daniel's prayer? You are right; the repentance must start with us.

My point is that we have been distracted from preaching the Gospel by visions of grand missions that require domination

I, for one, have no problem with a government composed of Christians dominating anywhere and anytime.


Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

Who is the 'we' you are refer to? and what do you mean by domination? Please define your view of church and state.

That is if being a Christian automatically sanctifies your decisions, but it doesn't. Our righteousness, with regards to being rulers depends on our decisions, not on whether we are Christians

In addition, Jesus called us to serve, not to dominate. In fact, he says that we are not to be like the heathen who "lord over" others.

Finally, not many people rejoiced when Bush was President.

C5, the reason I asked for your view of church and state is that you have a tendency to mix the two realms of authority. And you have just done it again with Chiefest.

In 1 Peter 5 we have authoritative commentary on Jesus’ reference to ‘lording it over’ as the Gentiles. It is clearly in the context of ministry in the church. Are you intentionally misusing the Scriptures by making this kind of reference?

So, as witnesses for Christ, you say we can lord over people if they are not in the Church but we serve those in the Church?

THere was no NT Charge to do so. In fact, there was a lack of concern exercised by Paul in exercising control in society (I Cor 5). And how we relate to non-Christians is vital in how we share the Gospel. There are no Scriptures that tell us to distinguish between how we relate to non-Christians and how we relate to Christians and in terms of being servants. In fact, Paul states that he became all things to all men in order to win them over.

As far as "sanctified decisions" I am to assume from your post that we are incapable of judging righteously under any circumstance, whether or not we are guided by the "unction" John referred to. I also am to understand that you evidently have a different interpretation of Proverbs 29:2.

I would also like to know your judgement on whether or not Jesus serves or dominates?

And finally, your political prejudices are showing. I never said (and I don't believe I have read anything ever on this site) that Bush, the Republicans, or America was ever entirely righteous in their dealings. I have read, however, that America is becoming increasingly unrighteous, due to the lack of what Vft would call "sound doctrine" from it's churches.

Please name another country in this world where you can enjoy the same freedoms that are under assault here in America. Having lived and visited abroad, I can say that even with all her faults and failures, there still is "no place like home", and I thank God that I was born in the "land of the free".

Jesus said himself that he did not come to rule, he came to serve and he served by teaching, not ruling, and sacrificing his life which was followed by his resurrection.

He will return to rule but in the meantime, we are to imitate his first coming. Also in the meantime, we see no NT command or example of Christians dominating society.

When you apply the verse regarding when the righteous rule, you need to consider whether how you rule affects your righteous status. Otherwise, we see an old theme of ruling by decree of superiority.

I am saying that the theocracy has ended in the NC. There are now two distinct realms of authority ordained by God in the church and state. As Christians we should understand these and keep them separate.

The state carries the authority of the physical sword in the restraint of lawbreakers. The church has the sword of the Spirit. She removes the lawless and unrepentant from the assembly of the saints with the intent of restoration to fellowship. The state’s responsibility is clearly laid out in Romans 13. It sounds like you want the state to be run with directives given to the church.

This is the inherent failure mode of socialism. It wants to assume the role of church and lord over the people with its good intentions. The sound doctrine of which Chiefest spoke is headed by the sovereignty of God and the authority of His word. It was this view that put an end to the rule of elites and made the state a servant of 'we the people'. Now the culture is reverting back to the tyranny of elites because it has no other authority.

It is written that Christ must reign until His enemies are His footstool. What is your understanding of this passage? Do you actually believe that He is not ruling now as He gathers His people from the nations according to His will? How is it that nations rise and fall and the church remains?

your first two paragraphs, but ethical behavior in society is not up to the Church alone. This is especially true since the Church removes members who are unfaithful.

It is simple common sense that we all bear a responsibility for each other. Part of that is because we live in an interdependent society and so our success is not just because of us.

I would also point out the article whose link is below:

http://extrememoderate.blogtownhall.com/2009/03/03/why_cons ervatives_oppose_taxing_the_rich.thtml