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Comment on: ANTI-LIBERAL ZONE

WHERE IT ALL STARTED-The Shot Heard 'Round the World.

111 Comments
Friday, December, 05, 2008 8:54 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

As I was SAYING

MONTGOMERY, Ala. – For farmers, this stinks: Belching and gaseous cows and hogs could start costing them money if a federal proposal to charge fees for air-polluting animals becomes law.

Farmers so far are turning their noses up at the notion, which is one of several put forward by the Environmental Protection Agency after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2007 that greenhouse gases emitted by belching and flatulence amounts to air pollution.

"This is one of the most ridiculous things the federal government has tried to do," said Alabama Agriculture Commissioner Ron Sparks, an outspoken opponent of the proposal.

Federal Colossus...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081205/ap_on_bi_ge/farm_scene_ cow_tax_2
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 9:32 AM The Crawfish writes:

Great essay, Guns!

I've already taken it and posted here: http://www.allmilitary.com/board/viewtopic.php?pid=158457# p158457

The part about the Brits tossing the weapons into a pond and the Americans retrieving them later is my idea of proper RECYCLING!
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 9:35 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

The Crawfish

Thanks.

I was stunned to find a few RINO quotes about gun grabbing! We need to watch these bastids CLOSELY!

The Brits threw a few cannons in there as well and we took those too! haha.

But the main point of this is that a smaller force, with trained marksman, operating as a guerilla unit, following guerilla doctrine to the letter, can and will overcome a larger conventional force every time.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 9:37 AM The Crawfish writes:

BTW, Gunny

You have more readership than I do, so I'd appreciate it if you could make a plug for all vets and family members of vets (members of the State Defense Forces count as military folks and vets at our site, we appreciate their service too!) to get their free membership at allmilitary.com. 50 posts and/or comments in the forum gets you a free shirt! (yeah, that took me all of about 3 days)

Speaking of that...what's your screen name over there?
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 9:55 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

The Crawfish

I'll push that out via email.

I think I'm Gunny G there as well but it has been a long time since I've been there. I'll have to check later.

Consider it done.

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Friday, December, 05, 2008 9:56 AM James writes:

Out of my Cold Dead Hands

As Charlton Heston said Out f My Cold Dead Hands, that is how they will get my guns. But a few I will tell you will go with me before they get them.

Gunny in reply As I was saying, maybe the EPA needs to go after our leaders, because much of what they say can be described as flatulence. I think most of the non existent Gorebal warming is done by all the putrid hot gases coming from there mouths. Maybe if we get rid of some of them we will save the environment. I also heard that there is a whole in the ozone right over Washington DC.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 10:15 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

James

HAHA! If the EPA outlawed hot air, the pols in DC would have to find honest work! haha
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 10:21 AM AliveInHim writes:

Great essay, Gunny!

I've asked Santa for a .38 for Christmas; Smith's "Lady Smith" seems a good one. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks, and keep the history coming! :)
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 10:46 AM USA Eagle writes:

Gunny

Lots of excellent content.Two things stuck out to me and they're well worth remembering:

"Remember, the more self-reliant you are, the more individualistic you are, the less power Liberals have over you!"

and

"When we stand up for ourselves, it is a direct contradiction of the Liberal philosophy of nanny-statism and power elitism."

Good read today...
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 11:14 AM The Godfather I writes:

Gunny a great and stirring rendition

of the birth of our nation. Reads like a novel and all the more meaningful because it's all so true. Anyone libturd wondering about the intention of the men who created this nation need go read the last line of the Declaration of Indepence. They pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor. An they weren't doing that with their weewee's in their hands.
Kind of surprised about Rudy. No one debates guns in limo lib land. Didn't know he had gun control leanings. Funny about Bloomberg as he walks around with armed body guards. Maybe someone should take their guns.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 11:42 AM clyde writes:

Gunny

Good post. I KNOW you did NOT get this out of a modern-day history textbook. These are the lessons the liberals DO NOT want your children to learn.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 12:16 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

AliveInHim

I recommend the S&W Airweight with Hogue grips to cushion the recoil somewhat. Ensure it is a +P capable weapon and ALWAYS use +P self-protection rounds.

Attend an NRA approved firearms safety class.

Get your CCW permit.

Practice Practice Practice
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 12:18 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

USA Eagle

Thanks for the kudos. It was great researching it and reading about the absolute GUTS of these guys challenging the STRONGEST nation on Earth! They faced what we face today...the Colossus.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 12:19 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

The Godfather I

I did not know about Rudy aka the Bald Hillary, until BrianR took me to the woodshed on him! haha.

A gun grabber.

You wrote: "They pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor. An they weren't doing that with their weewee's in their hands."

I could not have said it better.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 12:24 PM Mrs. AL (Always Learning) writes:

Great Read, GunnyG

Thank you so much for putting all this together. Couple of thoughts came to mind when I read your post ...

1. Our foundational document is, in my humble opinion, the Declaration of Independence.

2. The U.S. Constitution's first 10 Amendments are clear (read in context, that is) that the Government cannot take my rights away. They were forever banned from doing so, but I do have the option of giving those rights up to the government. Me, nope. Not going to give up a thing.

As a gentleman said to mr at a Home Depot 3-4 years ago ... buy it cheap and stack it deep. I do so respect my elders!
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 12:33 PM buck writes:

I Do Not Understand Cops!

Cops see crime daily.
They see the unarmed and defensless gunned down.
They go into homes that have become crime scenes because the homeowner had no means to defend themselves.
And
They see the crime scenes where the business owner/home owner had the means to defend himself and his property.
Still;
Why are so many Cops so anti-gun?

In light of the fact that so many illegal guns out there proves gun bans do not work.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 12:44 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

If Only

Thanks for the comment.

And as far as: "buy it cheap and stack it deep."

I could not agree more and have BEEN doing it haha!
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 12:44 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

buck

Not all cops are like that and I have read where some cops don't like being ARMED! I guess there are liberals in EVERY occupation!
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 1:02 PM buck writes:

You Still Don't Get It


The Constitution, to the government, is nothing more than a "Treaty" between them and the American People.

A "Treaty".

Like the "Treaties" between the government and the American Indians.

And the government intends to honor the Constitution as they have done all the other "Treaties".

I guess it's hard to keep another man's word when his word stands between you and what you want. For politicians it is damn near impossible...

When Lenin (or Marx, or Trotsky, or somebody) said mankind was in a continuous class struggle between the haves and the have nots, he could have put that between the people and the politicians just as easily. And been a lot more accurate.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 1:03 PM Jennifer writes:

where to begin...

Wow, lots to comment on about this post!
I loved how you described the colonists when they arrived. Everything was not handed to them. They had to work, and work hard to establish a new community. I respect their tenacity in gaining and maintaining freedom.
I read your statements about our govt and what it has become. A govt of bribes, scandal, taxes, debt, oppression of freedoms etc...
My question is, in light of where we are in 2008... How long will the American people sit back and take what we are taking ? History tells
us....not long. Is there a possibility of revolt/rebellion? I have wondered this for sometime.
I mean 7 trillion dollars of debt for us to pay!
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 1:08 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

buck

Oh, I get it. I see the tyranny of the politicians but unless it reaches critical mass and the POPULATION gets p*ssed en masse, we're just gonna circle jerk it.

They are liars and cheats and scumbags, no one can argue different but until we can replace them and BOY! have I worked my brain on how to, we're just spitting into the wind.

I've said many times that I would love to arrest 535 members of Congress and 50-same members of the Senate and try them for crimes against Americans. On C-Span no less!
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 1:11 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Jennifer

The resentment is there, one only has to look at the approval rate of Princess Nancy's Politboro, now at 9%, to see that the nation is mad as H*LL.

But when do you stop peaceful efforts and go to Condition Red? Would you, me, us be willing to forego EVERYTHING to start it?

I've played a game called "Rome" on my PC and you can only invade Rome, as a Roman General, i.e., Caesar, and wipe out the Senate, when you have the support of the people.

I'd say at this point, people are more concerned with American Idol and Jennifer Aniston's t*ts showing than liberty and freedom.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 1:20 PM The Crawfish writes:

James, you're not far off

There's a story at Yahoo today about the EPA getting ready to tax ranchers and farmers for their livestock, because they fartt and burp.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081205/ap_on_bi_ge/farm_scene_ cow_tax_2
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 1:23 PM The Crawfish writes:

Gunny

I wanna see Jennifer Anniston's t*ts!
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 1:24 PM Jennifer writes:

hmmm

Yes, we would have to for go everything, storm the gates of govt. I was talking with a friend about this yesterday in regards to how abortion became legal...I had never understood how "the people" would stand for such legislation. Then I thought, it's like us today...Are we too complacent? apathetic?
I personally do not care one iota for Am. Idol or the other example you gave, hahaha.
there is a big distrust and disgust among all of my conservative friends. But I wonder what it would take for an uprising ???
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 1:37 PM Mrs. AL (Always Learning) writes:

Buck -- I do not understand cops

Don't mean to beat this subject to death, but the fact is -- there are very, very few cops. There are a lot of policemen/policewomen. The difference between the two is astounding.

Historically, I would say cops stopped being cops when college degrees were required and these people became glorified social workers, not cops.

As a dear retired cop friend of mine told be years ago, 'you're on your own.'
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 1:57 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

The Crawfish

I have. She screams my name and that is why Brad left her!!
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 1:58 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Jennifer

Row V Wade was inflicted on us through BAD LAW, at a time when we were the silent majority and the libs ruled the media.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 2:04 PM buck writes:

Gunny

The way back would be to return to the original intent of a 2 year congressional term.
The reason was to permit American Citizens to go to oversee the government and to control the politicians ie senate and president. It was 2 years instead of 4 or 6 because it was expected that farmers and merchants would be going as REPRESENTATIVES of their areas and 2 years was as extreme an imposition as could be expected on a private citizen to go babysit the pols. The process has been corrputed to just another bunch of professional career politicians which do nothing to oversee the workings of the government and everything to line their pockets...just at 2 year sprints instead of 4 or 6.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 2:13 PM buck writes:

And a lot of it is because we seem

mesmerised by lawyers. Lawyers! Our founding fathers prohibited "lawyers" from charging for their "advice". Study of the law was considered a form of entertainment or a hobby. Lawyers were not even allowed to advertise until just a few years ago. Now look at all the ambulance chaser comercials you have on daytime tv.
Lawyers.
And not particularly good lawyers, at that.
Joe Biden was expelled (or failed) for plagarizing;
Hillary Clinton could not pass the DC Bar Exam.

I'm sure some of you readers can come up with other shenanigans politician lawyers have done...

The walk-off area of the podium at a law graduation ceremony should be covered by an M-1 Garand with 4 Hollywood bullets in its 8 round clip....
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 2:42 PM Dean D. writes:

Kudo's Gunny

Once again, job well done on a nicely written piece!

You expose the gun grabbers for what they are in their own words. A person would have to be blind not to see that they desire to RULE, not govern. I hope some of the sheeple will be enlightened before it is too late.

Keep up the good fight, Dean D.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 2:44 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

buck

I could not agree with you more. In fact, there should be NO PAY for Congcritters or Senators but rather, a supervised reimbursement for legitimate expenses.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 2:44 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Dean D

Thanks. You know me, I LOVEEEEEE hoisting libs AND Rinos by their own petards.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 4:40 PM arik writes:

Gunny

I never really thought much about this issue until recently. In my younger days, I thought gun control was a pretty good idea. With age comes wisdom, they say, and as I grew older I realized the intent of the second amendment was not just to protect us from foreign governments, but against the possibility of our government turning to tyranny.

Nowadays, i'm becoming more and more concerned about what kind of country we are going to leave our kids, and so have joined the NRA, which would have been unthinkable fifteen years ago or so.

Even more amazing is that my wife, who was never big on having guns around the house, wants to go and get a few before BHO takes office.

March on Washington? Give em a little notice, and I'll be there.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 4:41 PM arik writes:

Oops!

Give ME a little notice.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 4:41 PM arik writes:

Oops!

Give ME a little notice.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 5:08 PM Jennifer writes:

arik

We had not even thought to be armed until the past few months. Our eyes have been opened to what is going on in Govt, and how people are becoming increasingly greedy and just plain "Crazy". It would take one catastrrophe for riots and such.
Good for your wife wanting her own firearm. She is like me, after BHO was elected, I knew it was time.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 6:56 PM Greg England writes:

US politics

US liberals defend the (unconstitutional) right of mothers to abort the unborn.

US conservatives defend the (constitutional) right of ordinary citizens to arm themselves.

It's like Dennis Prager said, there are two Americas:

http://townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/10/14/ther e_are_two_irreconcilable_americas
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 7:48 PM CKHustler writes:

GunnyG

Spectacular essay!

Intertwining the two stories was a great way of doing it. It really brings to light the similarities in a way that cannot be dismissed. Thats probably the reason you don't have many trolls coming by on this essay.

I feel the same way. Liberals can do all these things and get away with it for now, but if they try to remove our guns, they will be in for a war.
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Friday, December, 05, 2008 8:45 PM Bobbie writes:

Hey Gunny,

been catching up on your blogs. Every one of them good stuff, well thought out and accurate. On the gun issue, we don't dare let them take them away. Then we'd have no way to protect ourselves against THEM.
Scary thought.

Keep up the good work.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 12:06 AM steve writes:

Gunny

Your "bottom line" about liberals makes no sense. If you need a bogey man, consider Karl Rgggove.

Your paranoid ramblings are amusing, but confused and disjointed.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 8:54 AM caday5 writes:

Greg England

It is like you need so few facts to come to a conclusion. Both Democrats and Republicans, "liberals" and conservatives, abrogated their Constitutional duties in 2002 when voting to permit Bush to fight wars as he pleases. And certainly certain privacy rights guaranteed by the Constitution have been usurped by Bush. And didn't I hear complaints about violations of Posse Comitatus? That started with Bush and now Obama will inherit the powers that Bush gave himself.

I agree with you about the abortion issue, but it is not the only issue involved. And what the "liberals" and conservatives of our gov't have shown is that they can be bought if the price is right. Thus you have deregulation, ethanol, and needless as well as immoral wars and defense spending. In the meantime, "capitalism" is packing its bags and is getting ready to leave on a jet plane. Because our gov't has allowed the investor class to attack the working class, we are losing the consumer power that attracted investors. Now that there are not enough people to buy, along with the jobs they have taken, they will take their money and we will lose all that we have worked for.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 9:35 AM Greg England writes:

Caday

"It is like you need so few facts to come to a conclusion."
More often than not, I find detail is used to obscure rather than to enlighten.

"I agree with you about the abortion issue."
Fair enough.

----------------------------

"Because our gov't has allowed the investor class to attack the working class, we are losing the consumer power that attracted investors."
For all sorts of reasons (including the Fannie Freddie debacle) economies are going south. I have been concerned about easy credit since 2006, and have commented on this in letters to national newspapers.

-------------------------

"Both Democrats and Republicans, "liberals" and conservatives, abrogated their Constitutional duties in 2002 when voting to permit Bush to fight wars as he pleases."

"... needless as well as immoral wars and defense spending ..."

You can complain about foreign policy. However, complaints about defence spending are a bit of a red herring. Either you are for the existence of a military capability or you are against it.

If you are against the military (e.g. pacifist) then of course you want to close down defence industries, but that's only part of a wider package of disarmament.

However, if you are for the existence of a military then you have to have defence spending - military operations require logistic support.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 9:45 AM Greg England writes:

Caday

Actually, I find it ironic that every central bank's solution to the economic crisis is ... to cut interest rates even further.

I thought easy money was at the heart of the problem. Unless money is earned (through creating value) then it's just paper.

Capitalists and socialists can disagree as to how the money is earned.

Marxists believe that this requires good old fashioned hard work (hence the labour theory of value)

Free market capitalists believe that capital should be liquid, so that investors are free to maximise their profits. Capital thus naturally migrates to profit making businesses.

At least there ought to be a small island of common ground in that we believe that too much "magic money" is ultimately no good for anyone.

(Otherwise why don't we all move to Zimbabwe ... they are all billionaires over there ...)
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 10:16 AM Greg England writes:

Caday

"It is like you need so few facts to come to a conclusion."
More often than not, I find detail is used to obscure rather than to enlighten.

I don't necessarily mean this as a criticism of you. I mean in general. In everyday life, lots of people like to put the case for the defence, and obscure their arguments with unnecessary detail.

I don't mean because they are trying to make a truce with others (that's a perfectly legitimate thing to do, e.g. at work). I mean when they are trying to dishonestly win an argument.

That's why I like Dennis Prager so much. Even if you disagree with him, or think he's being simplistic, he isn't trying to hide who he is, or what he values. And values debates are more constructive than "... UN resolution XYZ blah blah blah ..."

In the UK we have a British socialist politician Tony Benn who is admired across the political spectrum because he is very good at articulating his worldview. He has even won parliamentary awards for his speaking ability.

I suspect that you might find common ground with his views:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Benn
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 10:45 AM caday5 writes:

Greg England

I find the defense budget to be a continuous rather than a discrete issue. For how does being in favor of having a military imply that you agree with all defense spending proposals?

Regarding capitalism and socialism, if you are saying that socialists believe that wealth should be based on labor on productivity and that American capitalists believe that wealth should be based on speculation, then I agree with you. But what is not acknowledged by many American capitalists is that while they blame the poor for their plight, as investors they say to the employed either like what you are being paid or the job will leave. THe result is that we often end up with 2 kinds of poor people, the working-poor and the unemployed. Without a balanced approach to capitalism, the investor gets to live off the labor of others while, again, blaming the poor for their plight.

Since we know the faults of totalitarian socialism, we see that both systems, when led by self-interest, is harmful to the majority of people. Currently, we are not in the position where, because the investor class has sorely attacked the working class, there are not enough consumers to support the economy.

Finally, you succeeded at not obscuring your argument with details. But what does the absence of facts show?
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 12:02 PM Jeffrey writes:

Caday5, replying to Greg E

You say "socialists believe that wealth should be based on labor on productivity and that American capitalists believe that wealth should be based on speculation"

"Socialist" is the nom de guerre of control-freaks. They don't care what wealth is BASED on; they care only that they CONTROL it. In practice, this means that the "socialist" extracts wealth by coercion. Which explains the dismal productivity of "socialist" economies.

"Capitalist" is the slur control-freaks apply to those who believe that the gov't shouldn't be allowed to loot people's wealth.

"Speculation" is the mis-label control-freaks apply to the natural balance of risk & reward in a free economy which has actually produced the fanastic wealth humanity has enjoyed in the past couple of centuries (at least where the control-freaks were held at bay).

Regards,
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 12:09 PM Jeffrey writes:

Caday5, replying to Greg E, con't

The control & coercion which is so necessary to the control-freaks' dominance is why (to return the the topic of this thread) they lust so strongly to disarm the populace.

Looting is SO much easier when the prey can't shoot back.

Regards,
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 2:52 PM Navyvet writes:

Gun Grabbers

When these sound bite producing nitwits get the guns away from the gang bangers, criminals, ex cons, etc, etc, etc, ie enforce the 10,000 laws they have already passed, then lets talk about the legals with guns. That said, we wont ever have to worry about it. Why would they go after criminals, thats a big part of their voting base?
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 3:50 PM The Godfather I writes:

C5

I'm shocked! Shocked to see that you have finally agreed that the Congress declared war and that it was not President George W. Bush all by his lonesome. Well you've made my week. But back to the essay at hand, I'm wondering C5 if you would pick up a gun to defend your liberty?
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 7:12 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

arik

Good post and thanks for joining the light! Gun sales are up 50% in Chicago where they know this clown well!

It's only going to get worse before it gets better.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 7:14 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Greg England

What an outstanding contrast! SO TRUE!
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 7:16 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

CKHustler

The libs know it but they are desperate to acheive their utopia before they pass from the scene. Frank, Reid, Piglosi, all old and stupid. This is their last chance and they know it. THAT is why they're gonna overreach.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 7:17 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Bobbie

You can count on it. As you can see by my regular trolls, I've pretty much over the target every essay.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 7:19 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Jeffrey

Capitalist" is the slur control-freaks apply to those who believe that the gov't shouldn't be allowed to loot people's wealth.

PERFECTLY PUT! The liberals whine and mewl about the evil CEO's making a profit for their shareholders yet overlook Franklin Raines making 90 MILLION in Fannie Mae bonuses in 5 years!
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 7:20 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Navyvet

HAHA! Right on the money. Who wants ex-cons to vote? Liberals. Who takes ballots to jails? Liberals using the excuse that "they're not convicted yet!"
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 7:23 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

caday5

Keep hanging around here and you're gonna start thinking straight, seeing straight, and GOD FORBID! shooting straight!

Congress declares war and I've glad you finally see that.

Hanging around CONSERVATIVES can be lethal to your pacifist chomsky views.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 7:25 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

The Godfather I

I had to read his post TWICE to catch that. As with a few other liberals I've chatted with recently, there is a conservative in them dying to get out! Converting liberals is what keeps me going. I have converted a few libs over time at work and about 10-15 on the shooting range when I was instructing.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 7:53 PM caday5 writes:

Gunny

I saw that a long time ago. In fact, you might find that you agree with some leftists on certain things.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 7:57 PM Steve writes:

Dear GunnyG

Good article. I'm not sure how Jennifer Anniston's "mammies" got into the conversation, but at least it was more interesting Caddy's more-of-the-same. By the way, isn't Caddy a female? If so, I demand visual evidence!
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 8:02 PM caday5 writes:

Godfather

Actually the Congress did not declare war. They gave the President unlimited power to do what he wanted. In addition, Congress continues to fund the war, they could end it by refusing to fund the war.

But the point is still that the President is guilty of War Crimes for the invasion. Congress did not declare war, they gave Bush a blank check. And despite all of the warning regarding sectarian violence, the humanitarian disaster that would occur, and that world terrorism would increase, Bush went along with the invasion. In addition, Bush decided to invade despite the fact that the UN inspectors on the ground did not verify the US charges. And finally, Bush himself said that he was invading to stop a "gathering storm". That is simply the same defense Nazi Germany gave for their war crimes in Eastern Europe. And he invaded despite the fact that it was in violation of international law.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 8:08 PM caday5 writes:

Jeffrey

Your statement is nothing more than a gross overgeneralization of socialists without proof.

There have been a number of socialist regimes, some totalitarian for sure, but others have not been. And in fact, when you consider that the US has overthrown, or attempted to, over 50 gov'ts since WWII, you might want to consider whether either socialists do not have a monopoly on being control freaks or that the US has been a socialist country.

Finally, again most of our wealth had been based on speculation, such as speculation regarding the value of houses. Outside of weapons, we hardly manufacture anything. This means that not only is there no money coming into the country for what we produce, we have to import basic needs
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 8:51 PM arik writes:

Caday5

" voting to permit Bush to fight wars as he pleases."

You may not have noticed, but the Constitution makes the President "Commander-in-Chief." This means that, in the end, wars ARE fought as the President pleases.

And you may have missed it, but 500 tons of Yellowcake Uranium, which can be used to make nuclear weapons, was transported to Canada from the place it was found: Baghdad. WMDs were there, ask the Kurds. And this war was about more than just the WMDs. If you think Saddam Hussein wasn't a clear and present threat to the U.S. and its citizens at the time of the invasion, you weren't watching CNN.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 9:15 PM arik writes:

Gunny

Federalist #29 - Hamilton - "...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, should it exist.

1764 Letter and speech from Thomas
Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari) - "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

There's a whole page of good ones here: http://www.vtgunsmiths.com/arms/ffquote.html
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 10:03 PM caday5 writes:

arik

What you might also want to know about the Constitution is that it is Congress' responsibility, not the President's, to declare war.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 10:18 PM The Crawfish writes:

Hey Gunny

Squids and Jarheads: 34
Dogfaces: Zip, Zilch Zero, Nada, Nadadamnthing!
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 10:22 PM The Crawfish writes:

C5

Yes, it is Congress' job to declare war, but the President (as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces) can order military action at any time. The Founding Fathers knew that. Did Jefferson ask for a formal declaration of war when he had the Navy and Marine Corps team kick the Islamic terrorist bastages known as the Barbary Pirates in the azzz?

We were never at war with the people of Iraq. Just Saddam's government.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 11:13 PM arik writes:

Caday5

What Crawfish said.

Also, there is a long history of this country taking part in undeclared wars. I believe the two most famous would be Korea and Vietnam. The President has the Constitutional authority to initate military action.

Frankly, this war should have been unnecessary, as Hussein should have been deposed during Gulf War I. That he was not, with the resulting slaughter of Iraqi nationals, the Kurds in particular, lies solidly at the feet of the "United Nations."

I often wonder why it was so imperative to go into Bosnia, and why everyone is so intent on us, essentially, invading Sudan to "liberate" Darfur, but couldn't find a moral justification for stopping the gassing of the Kurds, and puting the rape rooms of Uday and Qusay out of business. I can think of two good reasons, both, in my estimation, equally likely: 1) The Kurds were the wrong shade of brown, and 2). The UN hates the US, and, as going into Iraq might also aid US interests, such as oil and not having a homicidal maniac in charge of a country already under (useless) UN sanctions, they opposed it on principle.
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Saturday, December, 06, 2008 11:35 PM Darvin Dowdy writes:

Gun grabbing is just the effect...

...the symptom. The cause can be traced back to those foreign influences that are attempting to circumvent the Constitution and turn this nation into just another piece of the puzzle called the World Community.
Gosh your scarin' the heck out me Gunny. This whole process of our nation being taken from us is moving along much faster than I expected it would. When Obama announced the need for a new civil defencse force the first thing I thought, "they will be the ones coming around collecting the guns".
Hey new post at my blog if you have time. DD
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 6:03 AM beachmom writes:

Gunny

I'm waiting for some brave reporter to ask these people why they think the Constitution is worth no more than a piece of toilet paper and which of the rights guaranteed to be left alone by it are they going to grab for next.
I know, I'll be waiting for a long, long time.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 7:48 AM Jeffrey writes:

Caday5, re: "overgeneralizations"

Anything that fits onto a blog comment, must of neccessity, be an overgeneralization!...:)

As for evidence of "socialist's" anti-social effects, research: Stalin's famine, the Holocaust, the Gulag, the Great Leap Forward, the Killing Fields, Vietnamese boat people, Cuban boat people, E vs W Germany, N vs S Korea...

"...socialist regimes, some totalitarian for sure, but others have not been." By "not been" I presume you mean places like Italy, France or post-USSR Russia. All of those are dead societies walking. Check out their demographic projections to see. A slow, comfortable death by poison is still murder.

Regards,
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 8:00 AM Jeffrey writes:

caday5, "socialism"

"Socialists" by no means have a monopoly on the lust for control. The brillance of our Founders was to recognize that, & craft a system of gov't that restrained the effects of the addiction. Which is why the Left is ever eager to explain away & circumvent the Constitution.

By the way, I quite agree that Congress has gone wobbly on the matter of declaring war. It's one symptoms of the control-freak addiction: politicians saying "This crisis requires that we not obey the rules". We should have had the debate about Iraq BEFORE going in, not after our troops were in harm's way. See also, the recent financial cover-up...er, I mean, bail-out.

The danger in "socialism" is that the gov't tends to discard, "for the good of the people", restrictions on its exercise of power. Kinda like giving the addicts the keys to the pharmacy - you know how the story's going to end. Gov't officals indulging their need for control may produce sudden collapse (USSR), protracted misery (Cuba) or lingering death (Italy). But it kills.

Regards,
Regards,
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 8:10 AM Jeffrey writes:

Gunny, re: Franklin Raines

Also, to add to your stack of ammo:

Rahm Emmanuel, White House Chief of Staff to-be, "served on the board of Freddie Mac...by some accounts pulled down more that $250K for less than a year's work...earned millions working for hedge funds & Wall Street speculators..." (American Specator Nov/Dec 09)

Robert Rubin, who "as Bill Clinton’s Treasury Secretary, oversaw the deregulation of Wall Street that certainly contributed to the present meltdown", while at Citigroup, "took in an aggregate $115 million in pay and bonuses — even though his bank’s stock crashed and lost 75 percent of its value,". And, Rubin "protégés Lawrence Summers and Timothy Geithner will now oversee the nation’s financial policy for the new Obama administration" (Victor Davis Hanson @ NRO)

Wonder is that will be on the evening news...?

Ha, ha, ha...ha! I crack me up sometimes.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 8:45 AM MJSJR writes:

GunnyG

Great Essay. I think that people should be able to own any gun they feel as necessary for their own protection and the protection of their family and property. These idiotic liberals do not get it. The more guns the better. If more people had guns there would be less violence.

It reminds me of the old Reagan argument about nuclear weapons, the more we build, the fewer problems we will have.

The same amount of people would be murdered each year even if we banned all guns. They would just be killed in different ways.

Once a person has decided to take a life, they are going to do it, it does not matter what device they use.

A gun is a device that can be used for good or evil just like anything else, and should never be banned.

Keep up the good work.



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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 9:21 AM Greg England writes:

Caday

"Finally, you succeeded at not obscuring your argument with details. But what does the absence of facts show?"

I won't accept a debate on those inductive terms. That's a tactic often used by debaters to put the opposition on the backfoot ... the debaters come readily prepared. It's a trap.

If I entered such a debate, you might draw on the stacks of information that you have accumulated over the years that backs up your worldview.

Implicit in the debate is the idea that I am without good character, and cannot be trusted to hold an opinion that contradicts yours unless I prove it using lots of data.

I would also end up spending vast amounts of time trying to assess the veracity of your data, rather than debate ideas.

This isn't the professional political arena. I don't have the time or resources to conduct such a debate today.

--------------------------------------

I would much prefer an open discussion of ideas. By open, I mean that I am happy to hear your opinions on a range of subjects:

For example:

(a) What do you believe that US foreign policy should be, once Obama is elected?

(b) What future military strategy would you accept for the US military? For example, do you wish to abandon pre-emption? Do you think that all future military strategy should be deterrence based?

(c) What should the relationship between the US and the UN be?
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 9:27 AM Greg England writes:

Caday

It is perfectly acceptable for you to be deeply and angrily critical of US foreign policy, and military strategy. It's your duty as part of the democratic process to question, and to vote accordingly.

However, I won't enter into extended debates about the moral standing of US or UK forces.

I will just offer one thought, which you can respond to if you wish.

Advanced nations such as the US spend lots of money on precision weapons. The whole point of precision weapons is to ensure that the weapons hit the right targets.

That's why the US military has terms like "collateral damage" to describe unintended innocent victims of war.

There are also numerous subjects like "defence doctrine" and "rules of engagement" and "target recognition" all of which underwrite the approach adopted by advanced nations such as the US.

You can oppose the US military, and you can oppose US foreign policy, but I'm just not prepared to accept that the UK/US are the belligerant party.

Especially when you consider the tactics of terrorists. Terrorists are so disinterested in who they kill, that they:

(a) Are happy to kill their own people in an attack
(b) Happy to deliberately target innocents
(c) Are happy to kill THEMSELVES in an attack. That's just plain nuts!

The recent attacks in India also illustrated once again, that Islamist terrorists are happy to extend valuable resources to targetting completely innocent Jews for no rational strategic purpose other than murder.

And that's deeply sinister.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 10:28 AM steve writes:

greg england

you have arrived at the core problem with Caday. He seems to have no ideas of his own and uses Chomsky and a few others to speak for him. Every discussion is about morality with him - I think it's ironic that this is a political web site and he's talking about morality. A false sense of "morality" in politics is largely to blame for us having 8 years of the worst presidency in US history. I prefer to consider politics and morality as mutually exclusive and I think the world would be a safer place if more of us did.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 10:33 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Steve

I don't know, I've seen some manly lib females! YIKES!
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 10:34 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

arik

Thanks for putting that out there. The trouble is, is that this information is no longer taught in schools but the leftist teachers.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 10:44 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

The Crawfish

EXACTLY! And THAT is the fine point of the whole Iraqi affair.

But what is even more disturbing is the mindset of people like caday5 who were OK with letting Saddam rape, pillage, and plunder his people at will!

I've seen the bloody elevator in Al-Faw and heard some of the stories from Iraqis themselves. Their daughters taken and raped, sometimes murdered, and their sons tortured and murdered. But liberals like caday5 would not lift a finger to help them.

As my father often noted about liberals, once they have their's, f**k the rest of us.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 10:46 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

DD

Could you imagine the outcry if a Republican had said something about creating a national security force!

Obama is a far left weenie and staunchly anti-gun.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 10:47 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

beachmom

The cowards in the media would never THINK of asking any hard questions, they are too busy licking Obama's boots.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 10:48 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Jeffrey

And all of that from the clown promising "change!" haha
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 10:57 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

MJSJR

I totally agree. What liberals fail to note is that the first recorded murder was Cain bopping Abel on the grape with a CLUB!
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 10:59 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

steve

"I prefer to consider politics and morality as mutually exclusive and I think the world would be a safer place if more of us did."

That is a good point and really, if politicians were open and honest about their stances, it would be much easier to make a choice!

Look how hard it is to determine a D from an R on their website, reelection posters, etc.

Did H*ll freeze over?
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 5:00 PM caday5 writes:

Greg England

Did you know that the first 50 smart weapons we used in the Iraq War missed their targets with many of them causing collateral damage?

We so often limit our definition of terrorism to tactics failing to apply our own gov't's definition which says that the targeting of civilians with threats or violence for political purposes is terrorism. Seeing how we targeted Iraqi civilian infrastructure with smart weapons in the first gulf war and sanctions during the Clinton Presidency, and seeing how many civilians whose deaths we made inevitable by our "Shock And Awe" invasion, all of which occurred because we wanted Iraq's political leaders to change, what keeps us from being classified as terrorists?
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 5:01 PM caday5 writes:

steve

You have your wish, we have a gov't that quite successfully separates morality from politics. As they would say in the musical "Wicked", "I hope you're happy."
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 6:05 PM Doug writes:

Essential Freedoms..

"Louis Freeh, FBI Dir:

"The American people must be willing to give up a degree of personal privacy in exchange for safety and security." 1993."

In response to the delusional and impotent "pragmatism" expressed in the "logic" of those who would gladly trade their birthright for a bowl of soup, one esteemed poet of the Constitutional delegation wrote..

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporaray safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"..



Who knows when the time could come. But the insanity in Washington is definitely out of control.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 6:40 PM Jeffrey writes:

Morality vs Politics

Politics is a tactical undertaking. How do we gather the votes to pass the legislation? How do we pitch our agenda to get public support? How do we spin the bad news so that our opponents take the blame?

Morality is a strategic undertaking. What are we trying to accomplish by passing that legislation? What should our agenda be? Why is the bad news "bad" & what should be done about it?

We may safely assume that anyone claiming not to let their morality affect their politics, is merely a pirate.

Regards,
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 6:48 PM steve writes:

caday

I do NOT have my wish. A majority of Americans still confuse the two (politics and morality). Your fixation on political morality still has an audience in the masses, don't worry.

For those more pragmatic, I am happy to see that they have a voice here as well.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 7:47 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

caday5

Did you know that the first 50 smart weapons we used in the Iraq War missed their targets with many of them causing collateral damage?

Absolute crap. Have a CREDIBLE source? That means something nuetral, not NY Obama Times, Daily Kooks, etc.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 8:01 PM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

caday5

Did you know that the first 50 smart weapons we used in the Iraq War missed their targets with many of them causing collateral damage?

Absolute crap. Have a CREDIBLE source? That means something nuetral, not NY Obama Times, Daily Kooks, etc.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 8:07 PM The Godfather I writes:

C5

While your sources are questionalbe. The answer to your question lies in your own statement where you describe collateral damage. That means damage that was not the intended target. While you may not see the difference morally try this one. We won. In turn we will write the history. That's why we're not terrorists.

BTW you still didn't answer my earlier question would you pick up a gun to defend your liberty?
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 8:50 PM caday5 writes:

Godfather

Two points. First, what is the difference between between intentionally killing and making someone's death inevitable? Second, We have done our share of intentional killing.

BTW, sources are good.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 9:00 PM Gray Ghost writes:

Concord and Lexington.....

It is coming quickly (a year, 2 at the most). O'Vomit MUST do something on the guns because his power and the Dumbocraps power will turn on the 2010 election.

For them to steal it (i.e., the 2010 election), and get away with it, we the citizens must be powerless.

If O'Vomit doesn't do something quickly, the times will really be interesting in 2010.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 11:00 PM steve writes:

caday

Everyone's death is inevitable. It sounds like you are suggesting that we should never fight and risk collateral or intentional damage or death. I'll be the first to agree that the Iraq war is a horrible mistake, but your larger premise does not work. We are humans, apes in fact.

Some of us need to get our a5s kicked for the benefit of the whole community. If those in need of the a5s kickings would smarten up, there would be no need for war, and you could be happy. I look forward to that day, but I don't think it will be in our lifetimes.
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Sunday, December, 07, 2008 11:10 PM caday5 writes:

steve

Certainly everyone's death is inevitable,but there death at this time by our hands do not have to be. By your statement, there should be no laws against murder.
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Monday, December, 08, 2008 6:19 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

caday5

"We have done our share of intentional killing."

Are you married? If so, how the H*LL does your spouse put up with your constant whining.

War is h*ll. Period. U-boats, Zeppelins, Firebombings, Nukes, etc.

You fight to win.

BTW, I'm still waiting on that source material on the collateral casualties.
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Monday, December, 08, 2008 6:21 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Gray Ghost

The Congress and Senate are so out of touch and so out of control, that I have to agree. The backlash against the left is going to tsunami-sized in 2010 and they'll not let THAT happen. They've regained power thanks to the RINOS and they won't be giving it up easily.
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Monday, December, 08, 2008 6:24 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Doug

The more I read about our Founding Fathers, the more I realize that they were visionary geniuses.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with the economic idiots and social experimenters.
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Monday, December, 08, 2008 6:26 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Greg England

Advanced nations such as the US spend lots of money on precision weapons. The whole point of precision weapons is to ensure that the weapons hit the right targets.

Agreed. While in Iraq, I was able to witness a number of strikes like that and I can attest to the fact that they are, PINPOINT!

NO ONE avoids killing innocents like the US does. Too bad caday5 wasn't a human shield for the Chechins, the Russians killed them en masse.
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Monday, December, 08, 2008 6:46 AM Steve writes:

Dear GunnyG

I still recall the witness of a newscaster who was in a top floor hotel room in Baghdad when the war broke out. Looking out the window (at just the right moment!) he actually saw a Tomahawk cruise missile zip down the street at virtual eye level and turn a corner (!!) in following its guidance system to its target. THAT is what we mean by "precision munitions"! We've come a long way from the V-1.
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Monday, December, 08, 2008 8:47 AM steve writes:

caday

of course there should be laws against murder. Death in combat is seldom murder. Please look up the definition before you try to twist my words.

I'm guessing you think we shouldn't be fighting in Afghanistan - right? Should we have fought the Japanese 67 years ago?
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Monday, December, 08, 2008 11:25 PM marcy writes:

2nd AMD

"Mary Ann Carlson (D-VT): "We must be able to arrest people before they commit crimes. By registering guns and knowing who has them we can do that... If they have guns they are pretty likely to commit a crime.""
===================================


Yea the criminals really run right out and register their weapons! Are these people really that stupid? And they are the ones in charge of the government. How do you say disarm America and install the brown shirts…history repeats itself…again and again!
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Wednesday, December, 10, 2008 6:32 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Steve

EXACTLY!

I've seen video of them going in the front door!

Obviously, the shooter had a sense of humor.
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Wednesday, December, 10, 2008 6:32 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

marcy

That's liberals for ya.

Don't worry, they'll never disarm us and they know it. It's all a pipe dream on their part.
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Wednesday, December, 10, 2008 7:03 AM Steve writes:

Dear GunnyG

The only thing they don't do is knock first! Can you imagine how quickly WWII would have concluded if we (or they!) had that technology back in 1944? And, by the way, how much destruction it would have prevented and lives saved? Yet, to the liberals, it's as though we'd carpet-bombed the entire Middle East with a million B-17s.

It should be remembered, though, that Linebacker II had won the Vietnam War for us (after Tet had already won it before in 1967). How many times DID we win that war (as Giap himself admitted), only to have the liberals throw it away again? If you throw in the Cambodian invasion (were John F-ing Kerry wasn't) that makes three. How many victories, bought in the blood and sacrifice of American troops, have they betrayed?

Didn't they use to hang guys for far less?
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Wednesday, December, 10, 2008 12:42 PM caday5 writes:

steve

the targeting of civilians in war is a war crime. No twisting of words are needed. When you target vital civilian infrastructure during the First Persian Gulf War and the greatly interfere with its repair during the sanction year, the resulting deaths are your responsibility.
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Thursday, December, 11, 2008 6:23 AM Gunny "knuckles" G© writes:

Steve

Oh yeah, no doubt about that! Hanoi John was and IS a traitor and a liar.
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Sunday, December, 21, 2008 2:44 PM Steve writes:

Dear Caddy

When you bomb targets that are necessary to an enemy's war waging ability (strategic communications, military transportation, ball bearing plants, marshalling yards, etc.) you are attacking targets recognized as legitimate. Sometimes, in the process (especially in urban areas) civilians get hurt. That, unfortunately, is all but unavoidable. Modern precision munitions (invented by Americans) have cut that instance down tremendously from the days of World War II, Korea and Vietnam, when the technology was cruder.

However, to liberals, every instance where an enemy civilian has become a casualty- regardless of circumstance- becomes an American War Crime. The reason for this is plain. Liberals hate America and all it stands for. Thereby, America's enemies are to be exalted and portrayed as victims in every instance. Once upon a time, this was considered treason and sedition. To liberals, who have successfully decriminalized these deeds, it is just a means to a political end. You demonstrate it here.

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Sunday, December, 21, 2008 11:10 PM steve writes:

caday

You are such a wussy.
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