The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints As A Cult

>Druids burning captives alive in wicker baskets

You know, I think I saw the Deacons try that once, though, at Scout camp...:)

Ahh scout camp.

Knots anyone?? "The bunny goes around the tree and blah blah..."

Have you ever read the Early Church writings? Every religion and every cult or sect includes and excludes people on some basis unless you are going to say, "anything goes." If it does not matter what you believe, then why believe anything in particular; why be a Mormon? No one is forcing anyone to be a Christian, but you should be able to say something meaningful about what it means to be one; otherwise, you are just wasting everyone's time. You may not like being on the outside looking in, but Christianity has certain objective characteristics which Mormons reject, and one of those characteristics is a belief that some will not believe the truth so as to be saved. It is a little odd for a man to reject criticism from others only to criticize others himself. True Christians believe that the faith was "once for all delivered to the saints" and that the Apostles handed down "everything pertaining to life and godliness." (Jude 3; II Pet.1: 3) Nothing Luther, Calvin, or Joseph Smith had to say thousands of years later could be added to the finished and complete faith of the Early Church. If you like checkout my blog, "Faith Is As Faith Does."

You may recall, or not, Mitt Romney's so called... "Mormon issue".

The purpose of this blog was to answer the anti mormon rhetoric which seemed to permeate the republican primaries.

"Have you ever read the Early Church writings?"

Yes.

"Every religion and every cult or sect includes and excludes people on some basis unless you are going to say, "anything goes."

Agree

"If it does not matter what you believe, then why believe anything in particular; why be a Mormon?"

What is your point?

"No one is forcing anyone to be a Christian, but you should be able to say something meaningful about what it means to be one; otherwise, you are just wasting everyone's time."

See above for explanation of the original purpose of this blog. Also, it would behoove you to look at the whole blog before "wasting everyone's time" with such a generalization that there is nothing meaningful about what it means to be a Christian.

"You may not like being on the outside looking in, but Christianity has certain objective characteristics which Mormons reject, and one of those characteristics is a belief that some will not believe the truth so as to be saved."

I believe in Christ,therefore I am a Christian.
I'm not outside any church looking in or trying to get in. If so...should I pick yours, the Lutherans, the Bereans...etc...? "Christianity" is not unified,many denominations reject each others "characteristics", which has nothing to do with who can or can't be considered a Christian.

"It is a little odd for a man to reject criticism from others only to criticize others himself."

Criticism and disagreement is perfectly ok.
Its not odd at all to reject criticism and or criticize those who paint our doctrine as though we interpret it the way they do. It is quite alright to have disagreements, it is not alright to schew Mormon doctrine outright or for profit, though, legal, it is not alright.

"True Christians believe that the faith was "once for all delivered to the saints" and that the Apostles handed down "everything pertaining to life and godliness." (Jude 3; II Pet.1: 3)

Who are the "True Christians"? Any Christian, or just the ones that believe as you believe? For the record, I believe that too, we may interpret it differently. I also believe that the Church was and is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Eph 2:20). I believe that God's work is not accomplished and has a prophet on the earth today.

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets(Amos 3:7).

Having different interpretations of doctrine doesn't make me less Christian nor diminish my devotion to Christ.

"Nothing Luther, Calvin, or Joseph Smith had to say thousands of years later could be added to the finished and complete faith of the Early Church."

Well I agree with you, but I believe that an apostasy occured and a restoration was needed.

If you like checkout my blog, "Faith Is As Faith Does."

"Magic Underwear, forced tithing, forced missionary work under supervision, forced testimonies to be given out at any time,ostracizing members who doubt, excluding non-members, secret handshakes. It's pure mind control. That defines a cult in the modern sense more than comments about druids and wicker baskets."

I still see you have an innate inability to pick to a topic and continue to trash those that don't agree with you.


White Salad writes: Saturday, January, 03, 2009 7:24 PM
"So, JL You think the way to win arguments is to beat up people who disagree with you when you lack the intellectual firepower to make your case? There's a place for people like you, and it's called "prison"."

IRONY

Has it occurred to you that your focus on Mormonism only focuses on info provided by people who don't believe as oppose to those who do believe?

Has it occurred to you that ex Mormons obviously don't believe as active Mormons do?


I know you like to rile people up for kicks and giggles, but the fact of the matter is, you choose to remain ignorant as far as my religion is concerned, for example, it's quite cultish and convenient of you to think that we fit your description



"I am giving you a definition of a cult in the modern sense of the word and showing how the LDS is just the same as Scientology, the Unification Church, the Hare Krishnas or any other group that preys on religiously confused youth."

Sure people get confused, they take it up with God, unlike some people, who when they get confused, damn God and everyone around them, get bitter, attack others beliefs, and cry about religions enslaving the minds of men and wish use the govt to force everyone to unbelief.

"It has all the halmarks- Unquestioning obedience to the leadership (even when the leadership contradicts the previous leadership)"

Examples of contradictions please, doctrine, policy or personal opinions?

"control of all aspects of life,"

As I recall, it's people like you who want to beat people with hoses and force the govt to alienate stupid people for their belief in God.


"complete exclusion on non-members who might introduce alien ideas, etc."

how are non members completely excluded? This is too funny, you are the best at playing devils advocate, either Mormons are too exclusionary or they are trying to work with other faiths and invite others to their faith.

AS far as far as exclusion of non members who might introduce alien ideas, what is your point? On doctrine? On Humanitarian projects? Clearly on matters of doctrine, why would alien ideas be recognized? Or do you think that the US should allow China and Russia to introduce their alien ideas on our soil, to our children.


"Guy, it's all there."

Look in the mirror.




"Come on, are you saying that there is not ONE aspect of LDS doctrine that you don't think is a little silly?"

No, you are saying that. Just as my faith is silly to you, to deny God would be silly to me.

"That seems to indicate mind control, not a belief system that is arrived at through contemplation."

My faith is between me and God, not me and Joseph Smith or Thomas Monson and is derived through much reading, study, contemplation, and prayer. Mind control is non existent in my faith, it is an accusation used by angry scared people to make themselves sleep better at night.

This exchange makes me curious about what it was that you posted on white silly moron's (my name for him) blog that embarrassed him so much that he had to delete it.

I had a similar experience with another anti-mormon idiot. He ended up deleting everything from his blog, and I mean everything. LOL.

As Salad dressing likes to get off topic and get personal or keep talking about how stupid someone is for believing in "invisible sky pixies" I simply tried to take the conversation to his house so that thread could maintain its original topic.

He likes the limelight I guess...he'd rather belittle people without actually dealing with his comments.

The following is my response to him and was erased by White Salamander on his sight.



You have completely unhinged yourself.


"Oh, so now you are an expert in Roman history? That's a laugh."

And you are? It's also a laugh to think that you claim to be an expert on Mormon history.

"The fact is that in the ancient world, they were much more tolerant of homosexuality, even when the Empire was on the rise. So where the Greeks, for that matter. (Which is why it is called "Greek" style.)"

You could argue that all day, the fact is you could not prove that homosexual behavior was rampant in all societies as it was in the Greek and Roman, saying that the Romans and Greeks were much more tolerant of homosexual behavior makes my point.

"None of this had to do anything with Rome's decline, as much as puritans of the last century liked to think so. So reading historians like Durant has to be looked at the prism of their thinking (I actually like Durant- who was an agnositic, but I think he was full of himself, sometimes.)"

You are the worlds foremost devils advocate...you claim so much cerebral superiority over everyone on TH, you claim your poli sci and history degrees, but those degrees have to be looked at as a prism of the thinking of your professors, apparently, they were, like you, full of themselves.

"The reason Rome fell was because it was a society based on the acquisition of slaves. (another wonderful institution endorsed by the bible!) and they had replaced the institution of participitory government (The Republic) with a military dictatorship (The Principitate, or as it's called today, the Empire)."

That's one reason of many, not the principal reason by a long shot.


"And by your logic, when Constatine made Christianity the official religion of the Empire in 313, that should have fixed everything, right? Uh, no, the empire split and the Western Empire fell in 476."

I never said that, assumed it, or believed it. So much for your logic.



G- "Back it up. I guarantee you will only find instances where you are doing what you are famously known for, trashing Mormons, like you just did."

Me- "guy, you were the one who brought the subject up."

That is absurd, I wasn't even their.


G- "All you do is whine about "sky pixies" and "cultists" and rip everyone(especially Mormons)for their beliefs which you enjoy defining as totally stupid."

"Well, I don't whine,"

If you say so, everyone is a whiner and stupid, but you, got it, that philosophy, aka your "darwinistic approach to life" has worked wonders for you, where did you get your degree's from?

"I just point out the ludicrousness of believing in invisible sky pixies and imposing the mores of ancient sheepherders on the rest of us."


Yes, you are merely doing your civic duty, you're the perfect gentleman. You're not imposing your thoughts or beliefs on anyone at all, and neither are the gays. Right.


"It strikes me that if you are still going after gays, but aren't killing your neighbor for working on Sunday (as the Bible commands), then you are picking and chosing your religion, aren't you? (My guess is that you won't answer this one.)"

Clearly you aren't a scholar of history, let alone history of religion or New Testament vs Old Testament history. Your guess is that I won't answer this one? You're right. I've taken the bait before, I've done the research that you refuse to do, and you move on to other topics. Your the smartest person in the world( by far the healthiest), you've figured everything out, life is going according to your plan. That's why you could totally make money on a reality series and enlighten others.

G- Gay people in long term commitments? That's like saying porn stars in long term commitments, very rare.

Me- "My very good friend has been in a long term relationship with her partner for nearly 20 years. They raised three kids together. (Two of hers, one of her partner). My guess is that you know about as many openly gay people as you know porn stars."

Great, you know a gay couple...now as to the general gay population...get those stats. You could know a grip load of gay people, whats your point? I know gay people, I haven't discussed gay marriage with them, they haven't brought it up to me either. Maybe they take the Elton John approach. My guess is you know more porn stars than most single recluses.

G- The gay agenda isn't interested in marriage, hence the whole "alternative lifestyle", if you visit gay blogs and newspapers you can clearly see that. Most homosexual and bisexual behavior

Me-" Well, I don't visit gay blogs. (Why do I get the feeling you secretly do?)"

I do visit the gay blogs and newspapers, why would I have to do so "secretly"? Like I said, most gays, especially those who are behind the gay movement are anti religion and are are leftists. If you did, visit those sites, you'd know what the gays are saying.

"So exactly why are gays fighting to get someting they "aren't interested in"? Just to spite you? Hmmmmm..."

Exactly. That's why it's never been about civil rights, as gays already have every right as a straight person. It's about using the government to force everyone to agree with them and punish churches with hate crimes for not accepting homosexual behavior.


"Big Plagarizer
Big G, copying my format doesn't make you sound any smarter. Actually make smarter arguments, we might be impressed..."

When you say "we" you make it as though you are speaking on behalf of an audience, unless you are... the me, myself, and I crowd. You've been alone for along time.

You- "I'm still waiting for any leftist to tell me how abnormal sexual behavior benefits families, communities, societies, and nations in any way shape or form."

1) "Define 'abnormal"."


Adultery, Fornication, Molestation, Abortion, Homosexuality...."Thou shalt not commit adultery... nor anything like unto it."


"What's abnormal to you might not be abnormal to me. Or vice-versa."

Apparently so.

"Personally, I think Joseph Smith and Brigham Young wanting to have sex with multiple teenage girls was abnormal. (You know, guys you lionize.")

Well, that's the ironic part, you see, where as you claim, that others have varying viewpoints on what is abnormal sexual behavior, you claim that you know that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith had sex with teenagers, first off, I don't believe they did. Your rants to to the affirmative don't prove me wrong.


2) "Why does every relationship have to benefit society. A relationship should be about making the people in it happy. Period. Soceity should mind it's owned damned business."

Are you saying that what one does has no consequences or effects on others?
A relationship should be about making people happy, period?

Between consenting adults? Between consenting adult human and animal? Between consenting boys and girls? Between consenting boys and male adults? Between consenting boys and adult females? Between consenting girls and male adults? Between consenting girls and adult females?

You make the point that I have been making all along. I quote again for you Will Durant:

Moral and esthetic standards were lowered by the magnetism of the mass; and sex ran riot in freedom while political liberty decayed.

"Personally, I think people staying in an unhappy relationship "for the children" hurts society. You have kids with a screwed up view of marriage..."


Personally, I think our society is agreeing too much with you and is too selfish and focuses on self gratification. They do too much what makes themselves happy that they neglect their responsibilities. They should focus on the problem, not run away from it. Then they run away from their responsibilities and claim that society somehow has forced responsibility on them. Then they create their own reality and demand that everyone else conforms to their new found freedom from mental slavery and sexual oppression.

Go be happy, fornicate, adulterate, abort, have lots of gay sex, as long as y our happy, no one else is affected. That is the biggest lie in world.

"Screw all these sanctimonious phonies AND their invisible sky pixies, as far as I'm concerned.
If they refuse to perform marriages, treat them like ANY OTHER public accomedation that discriminates. Better yet, revoke their tax exempt status and open their books to scrutiny just like every other money-making enterprise."


"I don't hate religion. I just don't respect and don't think much of it."

You are schizophrenic.

You are off your rocker, you feel the same as the gay agenda. Which is to say that if churches refuse to marry gays that they should be spurned as bigots and their exempt status should be taken away, and you would have to use the govt to force others to believe as you do.

Religion is between the individual and God, and you and the gay agenda would use the govt to force religious persons to cater to homosexual behavior.

I thought you and gays just wanted to be happy? But nope, clearly you want everyone to take notice and approve of homosexual behavior, and that is the agenda, and they are using the govt to demand that religion approves of them, if not, that the govt destroys religious liberty.

GOOD job!!!!!

There is no question that white silly moron is a hypocrite and a hater.

hypocrites don't like being exposed!

LOL!!!

Keep up the good work!

Have you ever visited in the home of a Mormon family?

Have you ever mentored Mormon kids?

Have you ever immersed yourself in the spirit of God listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or visited the bright, happy, clean spirited kids and faculty at Brigham Young? Their music, drama and religion schools produce more reenfocement for Christian culture in one week than any other "American" institution in a fiscal year.

I have no theological accomplishments. i simply go take a look for myself.

What I saw in Utah was damned uplifitng and reassuring. These Mormon folks can share my foxhole anytime they choose.

Big G, bud....
"Has it occurred to you that your focus on Mormonism only focuses on info provided by people who don't believe as oppose to those who do believe?”

Has it occurred to you that ex Mormons obviously don't believe as active Mormons do?

“You mean they realized the whole thing was silly?”
So.

“I quote ex-Mormons because they have a perspective thankfully I will never have - actually growing up in the LDS cult.”

Exactly, you are getting one perspective.

“I have yet to see active LDS people actually refute anything they've claimed, only attack them as atheists or something.”

I have yet to see an ex-mormon refute anything they have claimed. They leave the church but can’t leave it alone. You refuse to look at anything presented to you and poo- poo it because it was presented by a Mormon. That tells me more about your character than any of your rants.




Big G- I know you like to rile people up for kicks and giggles, but the fact of the matter is, you choose to remain ignorant as far as my religion is concerned, for example, it's quite cultish and convenient of you to think that we fit your description.

“I like to think I challenge people's preconceptions.”

You have hardly challenged my preconceptions with your accusatory rants and name calling while refusing to look at info provided.

“I challenge my own every day, and I find it quite invigorating.”

Outstanding.

Lack of evidence is NOT proof of absence. What kind of an idiot are you?

Real Christianity is controlled by the Spirit and Word of the Bible. Mormonism puts the Bible in the middle of its sandwich. First comes the Book of Mormon, Second the Bible, and third but most important is Doctrines and Covenants. The BOM is bait, the Bible is the legitimizer, and the D&C is what they actually live by.

Even Mormons will lie. The last couple of young "elders" (in light of God never authorizing or approving eldership, in fact speaking against positions in Matt. 23:8-10) who came to my house promised I'd get a D&C but I never heard from them again.

Like any denomination, it's included in God's condemnation being called a prostitute in Rev. 17:5 and Christ's believers are told to come out of them in Rev. 18:4 lest they suffer their plagues. I suffered one of their plagues by having a BOM on my nightstand. It was as a spiritual allergy where everytime I merely looked at it without opening it, a little more darkness took over until I had to stay awake all night praying against it. I couldn't shake it until I gave up then God showed me the source of many demons is a false picture of Jesus. So I wanted to burn it but since that was illegal at the time, I promised God to throw it in the trash and that broke the curse although it took longer to wash out the residue.

I was later told a few others have experienced this. Obviously it's not commonly experienced or Mormonism would disappear due to attrition. And I think that's because most of their population aren't spiritual, just living by their laws written in the Doctrines and Covanents. Real Christians are spirit led.

In conclusion, the LDS prostitute, daughter of the great Roman prostitute is like any of her other traditional religious groups God tells his people to come out of to the extent some people get saved and move their hearts to pursue Jesus, but otherwise it has doctrines of demons that can make a true spiritual Christian's life hell on earth.

"Real Christianity is controlled by the Spirit and Word of the Bible. Mormonism puts the Bible in the middle of its sandwich. First comes the Book of Mormon, Second the Bible, and third but most important is Doctrines and Covenants. The BOM is bait, the Bible is the legitimizer, and the D&C is what they actually live by."

Surely the Lord God will reveal his secrets to prophets, as in days of old. Since there was no such thing as a Bible until many years later, how were the people led? By Christ's servants of course,

Ephesians 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the bedifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


As far as sandwiches go it has been written that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. As a follower of Christ, I believe He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and continues to call prophets today and will continue to do so just has he did in ancient times and in the meridian of time. I don't esteem any revealed word of God above another.

"Even Mormons will lie. The last couple of young "elders" (in light of God never authorizing or approving eldership, in fact speaking against positions in Matt. 23:8-10) who came to my house promised I'd get a D&C but I never heard from them again."

'Even Mormons will lie?' Well sure, they are human aren't they, even "Real Christians" will lie, dig pits for their neighbor, or interpret scripture to suit there own way of seeing things. Having not been present in your meeting with the elers I cannot possibly ascertain as to why they didn't return to your house to give you a copy of the Doctrine and Covenants...it could be they talked about it later and decided that since you had considered burning the Book of Mormon and ultimately settled on throwing the Book of Mormon in the trash, after having languished all night, that it would be pointless o give you a copy of the Doctrine and Covenants.

NOTE:(The term elders is used in various ways in the Bible. In many instances in the O.T. it has reference to the older men in a tribe, usually entrusted with the governmental affairs. Their age and experience made their counsel sought often. This was not necessarily a priesthood calling. Gen. 50: 7, Ruth 4: 2, Matt. 15: 2, and Acts 4: 5 are examples of this usage.

There were ordained elders in the Melchizedek Priesthood in O.T. times, as in Ex. 24: 9-11 and Num. 11: 16.

In the N.T., elders are mentioned as priesthood offices in the church (Acts 14: 23; 1 Tim. 5: 1, 17, 19; James 5: 14-15).

The term ELDER as used in the N.T. is from the Greek presybter. The detailed duties of the ordained elders in the Church today have been defined by latter-day revelation (D&C 20: 42-45; D&C 42: 44-52; D&C 46: 2; D&C 107: 12).Elder is the proper title given to all holders of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Thus an apostle is an elder in this sense, and it is proper to speak of members of the Quorum of the Twelve or the First Quorum of the Seventy by this title (D&C 20: 38; cf. 1 Pet. 5: 1; 2 Jn. 1: 1; 3 Jn. 1: 1).

"Like any denomination, it's included in God's condemnation being called a prostitute in Rev. 17:5 and Christ's believers are told to come out of them in Rev. 18:4 lest they suffer their plagues. I suffered one of their plagues by having a BOM on my nightstand. It was as a spiritual allergy where everytime I merely looked at it without opening it, a little more darkness took over until I had to stay awake all night praying against it. I couldn't shake it until I gave up then God showed me the source of many demons is a false picture of Jesus. So I wanted to burn it but since that was illegal at the time, I promised God to throw it in the trash and that broke the curse although it took longer to wash out the residue."

"Like any denomination..." Except Kirks of course...Obsess much Kirk? Damn evil Mormons...and "the great Roman prostitute"...and "traditional religious groups"!



"I was later told a few others have experienced this. Obviously it's not commonly experienced or Mormonism would disappear due to attrition."

Kind of like UFO sightings and kidnappings...lucky!

"And I think that's because most of their population aren't spiritual, just living by their laws written in the Doctrines and Covanents."

Funny, other "Christians" say we get too wrapped up with the spirit and don't analyze enough.

"Real Christians are spirit led."

And the "Word of the Bible" too, Kirk. But hey, that's what I told other "Christians". Which goes to show you can't please every "Real Christian", especially since they don't even agree with each other.

"In conclusion, the LDS prostitute, daughter of the great Roman prostitute is like any of her other traditional religious groups God tells his people to come out of to the extent some people get saved and move their hearts to pursue Jesus, but otherwise it has doctrines of demons that can make a true spiritual Christian's life hell on earth."

You are a real charmer, a regular life of the party at "Real Christian according to Kirk" Bible study. By the way, way to make friends and influence people here, I seriously can't imagine why the elders didn't return to your dwelling.

Kirk, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a Restored, not a Protestant or Reformed church, thus is not a "daughter" to the "the great Roman prostitute".

Good luck out there Kirk, keep knockin em dead with your "Real Christian" spirit.