Fort Hood Fallacies in Wake of Tragedy

"...Islam is about as violent as Christianity and Judism. They all have vengeful gods that justify horrific acts against non-believers. It could be argued that any violent act could be justified with religion."-jack

Thus you have arrived at the crux of the matter. Religion is simply one's beliefs, therefore anything may be carnally justified by religion; however, you fail to distinguish between religion and salvation, ignoring the latter. Salvation is not defined by the world's religions, but true Christianity is defined by salvation.
It is defined as a personal knowledge of the Saviour, Jesus the Christ, and an indwelling of the Holy Ghost which is promised to all true believers. It is what makes one "Christ-like" which is where the term "Christian" derives from.

You are also correct about the vengence of God Almighty that awaits the unbelieving. He has said that hellfire awaits those who trod the blood of His only begotten Son underfoot, and count it as an unholy thing:

Deuteronomy 7:10
...repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Isaiah 59:18
According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies...

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.


But God has shown His love also, in that He has offered it to the very nonbelievers you mention:

Romans 5
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


So the message is clear. To escape the vengeful God Almighty, flee to His only Son, who gave His all for our redemption. There you'll find the love of God.

You fail to apply your assessment to your own faith, which you seem to set apart as something different. It isn't. Belief in salvation through Jesus Christ is still a religion just like Islam or Buddhism. It assumes spiritual beliefs and spiritual principles and a supernatural being called god that lives in a mythical realm called Heaven. It is religion. It isn't different than what Hasan believed in in principle. Just the details are different.

And belief that vengeance awaits non-believers is another assumption based on religious dogma. Justifying it with the bible is no different than justifying it with the Quran. The bible is a book. It isn't god and it wasn't written by god. You don't know any more than I do. You just believe that you know and your belief doesn't make it true.

The message isn't clear. It's your belief and nothing more. Christianity is no more right than Islam or Toaism. It has the same shortcomings and to believe otherwise is to be arrogant about your own beliefs and ignorant to your own assertions.

Again, religion and salvation are not the same. Darwinists are religious, Buddists are religious, we can be religious about many things such as washing our car or going to the gym, but religion of itself does not bring eternal salvation. Worshipping something, anything, only allays the longing of our conscience which realizes we are made to worship God.
Salvation, however, is the gift of God through faith in Christ Jesus:

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The mark of salvation is the Christ-like spirit, which we strive to apprehend:

Acts 4:13
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

No man striving to "put on Christ" guns down 40+ people shouting "God is Great", nor does he pilot a plane into a building, nor does he strap a bomb on and kill innocent people. Nor does he work ill at all to his neighbor.

I guess your readers will all know, when the last breath is drawn, if your antiChrist vitriol is correct. But then, if I am correct, it will be too late for unbelievers such as yourself-hellfire will await (Revelation 21:8).

Or, we can know now, if we'll flee to the Son in whom we find the covering to hide us from the vengeful Almighty God:

1 Corinthians 15
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Again Chiefest, your beliefs are not exempt from the same standard you espouse. Salvation is still a religious concept. Think of it logically. Christ was all about salvation from a sin committed against an invisible god, which he claimed to be the son of. God is a religious concept. A god-like being is needed in religion. That is why Christianity and everything you describe is a religion. To say otherwise makes you a hypocrit because you're using a different standard for your own beliefs. And that is not an admirable quality to have. You're better than that.

And you're wrong. People will praise god before doing plenty of atrocious things. It's not just muslims. Christians have done it too, just not as much as they used to. They did it in the inquisition and they did it during the witch hunts and they did it during the crusades. That doesn't make it right even if they believed it was ordained by their imaginary god.

If you want to believe that's fine, but don't be a hypocrite. You're beliefs are subject to the same standard as every other believer out there, whether they're muslim or their part of the actual cult that believes in the teachings of the Jedi code from Star Wars (yes, it's a real religion for some people). Jesus and the bible is still a religion. There's no way around it.

Again, you fail to understand or accept the concept of salvation. You refuse to distinguish the religious from Christians; and no, they are not the same thing.
Calling oneself a Christian is also not enough. Christians, again, were called thus because they were "Christlike" in nature. Religion does not accomplish this. Salvation does.

It is that simple.

Chiefest, you're being a hypocrite again. Christianity is and always has been a religion. Even ardent believers admit this. You're ignoring the truth. It may not be comforting knowing that what you believe is not very different than the vast array of other religions. But it's the truth. You can't escape it no matter how unsettling it may be. There is no proof that Christianity is any more valid than another religion. It has as much evidence going for it as Shintoism, Taoism, and the Jedi religion.

I understand clearly. Salvation is a Christian concept and Christianity IS a religion because it assumes supernatural forces that cannot be verified or proven. Christ himself was a religious figure because he asserted (like that of Buddha and Alexander the Great) that he was the son or incarnation of a deity. You can't have that without religion. To say it's different is to ignore the truth and set up a different standard for your own beliefs that don't apply to others that are different. That is hypocrisy plain and simple.

"Christianity IS a religion because it assumes supernatural forces that cannot be verified or proven."-jack

When have I said otherwise? Your definition of religion is really much too narrow, due mainly to the enmity in your heart against God. Seemingly, you will stop at nothing to incur His wrath.
Religion is a term used to denote the worship or adherance to a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held with ardor and faith. This can be supernatural in nature or Star Wars.

Is it possible that you do not understand that there is a difference between those who espouse Christianity and those who are actually Christian? AT no time have I ever said that Christianity is not a religion. But, I am not preaching and testifying of religion, for RELIGION IS EMPTY WITHOUT SALVATION. What I did say is this:

"Again, you fail to understand or accept the concept of salvation. You refuse to distinguish the religious from Christians; and no, they are not the same thing.
Calling oneself a Christian is also not enough. Christians, again, were called thus because they were "Christlike" in nature. Religion does not accomplish this. Salvation does."-my previous post

I could call myself Chinese, white, or black, but that wouldn't make it so, unless I had the attributes to indicate it. Christianity is much the same. Without the attributes, a professing Christian is just a "a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal".

Now feigning ignorance of my position in order to justify calling me a hypocrite really exposes the weakness of your position to those who can read and understand.
It really doesn't matter that YOU don't care to understand, nor will it aid in your defense at the coming judgment.

Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.


Your knee will bow and your tongue will confess, just like everyone elses, before a just Judge.

After that, death in HELLFIRE for eternity.

You're twisting the word definition now, Chiefest. Yes, religion can be used to describe someone's adulation of something. But that is NOT the context to which this article was written nor was it the context to the points you were making about Christianity. I have no enmity in my heart against your god. No more than I do against any fictional character in literature, theological or otherwise.

I do understand that there are Christians of different interpretations. That's why there are so many sects, just as there are with every religion. But the premise is the same. You believe in the principles espoused by someone named Jesus who claimed divine heritage just as so many others have before him. You have no proof that what you believe gets you anything other than a dirt nap at the end of life. You just believe based on a 2000 year old book and what your priests and pastors tell you.

There is no distinction between Christians and the religious. They're the same thing. They all believe in the same flawed reasoning. It's a different punchline to the same old joke that keeps getting funnier every time it's told. You assume a supernatural concept like sin and salvation that have no merit in the real world. That is why it is religion. It has no more evidence for it than Buddhism or the Jedi. To say otherwise is to be a hypocrite, using your own criteria for something you judge others for.

You claim you understand perfectly, but at least I'm humble enough to admit I don't have all the answers and I don't turn to an invisible spirit to compensate for my lack of knowledge.

"That is why it is religion. It has no more evidence for it than Buddhism or the Jedi."-jack

Again, you're wrong.

1 Corinthians 15
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


This is the difference between Christianity and the rest. Our Saviour is not rotting in some grave like Mohamed, Budda, etc. If He were then we would have no hope:

1 Corinthians 15
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Now you can say that the Bible is a book of myths, and is not correlated outside of itself. But to do so is to expose yourself to the same charge of hypocrisy you like to level. There is archeological and literary work that support its claims, but you chose to ignore it or reinterpret it because it doesn't support your worldview. You reject out of hand anything that indicates you might be responsible for your actions to a higher power.

But your rejection is merely a symptom of the disease of sin, not the cure.

You are still responsible.

"Our Saviour is not rotting in some grave"

How can you say this reasonabley when it is and always has been assumed on faith, just like every other religious concept ever created? Of course Jesus is dead. He was crucified. Now you may claim his spirit ascended, but that's again assuming religious concepts like spirit and soul. These have no basis in the real world. They cannot be tested, verified, or proved. That is why Christ and everything about him is based on religion. Call it whatever you want. It is religion and the more you dance around it the more a joke your own faith becomes.

As for the bible, there is also archeological and historical evidence that supports the Illiad and the Rig Vedas of India. Same with the Quran. But they still have the same flaws in that they assume supernatural forces. Nothing in history or archeology can affirm any of the claims of Jesus or Christianity.

My rejection is not a disease. It simple questioning through intuitive reason. I am just as responsible for my actions as you are, but I don't revert to supernatural forces to verify my assertions. I try to be reasonable and I try to be humble. Religion takes a certain level of arrogance and that is why it remains civilizations greatest joke.

will be when you see the joker you put YOUR trust in for what he is:

Isaiah 14:12-17
16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

You can call Christianity a joke if you want; all you do is fulfill the Word you despise:

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

You'll have your evidence someday soon jack:

Revelations 6
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


What will you do when, after the judgment, you stand on the brink of that awful burning abyss, knowing you'll NEVER escape the torment?

I'll bet it'll be no joke then.

Responding with baseless and childish threats only sharpen the punchline, Chiefest. Warning me that I'll suffer when I die is pointless because you don't know. You can't know because you don't have any special powers that I don't. You just have a belief about a certain god and a certain guy who claimed he was the son of god 2000 years ago. Citing a 2000 year old book written in three different languages at different times that has been translated by countless authors doesn't offer proof. It just shows you can read, copy, and paste.

You keep threatening me as if you're going to have it any better after you die. You won't. We all go the same way. There is no evidence of any kind that people keep living after they die. That more than anything is the greatest joke, people living their lives as some Bronze Age culture tells them to thinking they'll be rewarded when in reality they end up in the ground just like everyone else. The biggest punchline is there's nothing they can do about it in the end because there's no way to know for sure until it happens. Even then, you're too dead to confront it. That only leaves those who get the joke and those who propagate it behind.

I'll say this one more time. I have nothing against god, Jesus, Buddha or any divine figure. It's the people who believe in them so ardently and try to make rational arguments with them that are the joke and it keeps getting funnier every single time.

I do know; you would understand that if you'd ever been a Christian. Saying you were doesn't make it so.

Ephesians 1:12-14
12... who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

To say I possess no special powers is a lie of your father. I have the ultimate power residing in my soul, and if I ask with faith believing and not according to my own lusts, He tells me I can have whatever I ask of Him. This is the same power that will cause your knee to bow and your tongue to confess to Him, one day very soon.

The Bible correspondes perfectly concerning what I know, what I believe, and what I have experienced-either firsthand or in witness of others. You continue to fulfill it's prophesies every time you find it funny. Everytime you shake your fist and say there is no God but the creature. Everytime.

You keep laughing, I'll keep rejoicing in His truth. We'll see if there is no difference in death.

It takes a certain level of arrogance to claim that you know something that is by it's own nature unknowable. It also takes a lot of selfish pride, a hellworthy sin according to Christian tradition, to believe you're right and everyone else is misguided.

The fact remains, Chiefest, you are as human as I am. We're both made of the same stuff. We both have the same limits realistically speaking. Saying you somehow have this supernatural knowledge because you just happen to believe in a narrow interpretation of a 2000 year old religion. To believe your own cognition is somehow the voice of god is not just irrational, it could be interpreted as a symptom of mental illness.

The bible may correspond with what you know and that is perfectly fine, but that is still a subjective assessment. The bible is a book, namely a book of theology. It is not a lists of facts and knowledge. It is in the same traditions of the Illiad, the Oddesy, the Rig Vedas, and the Maharbarta. Your experience is not proof that it's true. That's called anecdotal evidence and that's a fallacy. The bible and many of the claims it has made about cosmology, history, and science have been disproven. But that doesn't take away from it's theological and literary strengths. It's still no more true than Star Wars.

Now you're free to enjoy your beliefs, but when you try to pass them off as truth you make a mockery of yourself and your god in a way that is nothing short of a joke.

jack, you know I had another post ready for you, illustrating the absurdity of your unbelief, but there is no point. You refuse. Bottom line. You see it would seem you are past helping. You are as the addict, who refuses treatment because he is in denial. I have no problem, they say; they are always the last to know. Someday you will know. So, no railing accusation:

Jude 1-25
"...the Lord rebuke thee..."

Please Chiefest, feel free to post whatever you want in order to prove your point. I'll continue to point out the fallacies if there are any in your argument. So far everything you have posted has had major fallacies that you claim are not there. You call my non-belief absurd, but that's like calling NOT collecting stamps absurd. You're using absurdity to prove absurdity, as if a magical being from a 2000 year old book is somehow less absurd than every other magical being human beings have ever concocted.

Now I would be more than happy to recant every bit of non-belief if you or anyone could provide some positive evidence to support your god. Point out miracles that have been scientifically verified to be tied to your god (quote mining the bible doesn't count because it can't be verified). Point out Christian prophecies that came true BEFORE the events were recorded that weren't a result of the self-fulfilling effect. Cite an area in the bible where Jesus explained some accurate knowledge that was so advanced he never could have known it at the time, as if he said "I say unto you, energey equals mass mutlipled by the velocity of life multiplied unto itself." Or have a group of people who have actually fully died (death being brain death) and came back to life and described something beyond death that matches up with Christianity.

If you cannot offer such proof that is free of fallacy, then I cannot accept it as a man of reason. You don't care for evidence. It's assumed on faith and that is the flaw of all religion. It always has been and your narrow Christianity is no exception.