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Comment on: Heartland Patriot

Moral Vacuity from the Pulpit

55 Comments
Sunday, February, 24, 2008 3:10 PM Jimmy Carter writes:

I would have walked out too.

Does he really think that the only difference between north and South Korea is that noone gives norks enough?

Crazy!
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Sunday, February, 24, 2008 3:21 PM Scottie writes:

Jimmy

norks? What's a nork? And if you have too many of them, watch out that some of them don't get confiscated and sent to ROK.
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Sunday, February, 24, 2008 3:30 PM Jimmy Carter writes:

A nork...

...is the 'noid's cousin...avoid them both at all costs.
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Sunday, February, 24, 2008 3:36 PM Scottie writes:

Jimmy

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I knew about the 'Noid's other cousin, 'Roid, but that Nork kinda came from out of left field.

On a serious note, have you seen the nighttime satelite maps of the Korean peninsula? The south is lit up like Manhattan, while the north has but a single point of light, the capial city where Little Elvis lives.
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Sunday, February, 24, 2008 3:41 PM Scottie writes:

Here ya go pard

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/8351/1207koreaelectricit ygrikf0.jpg
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Sunday, February, 24, 2008 5:37 PM Gray Ghost writes:

Christ Did Not Preach Socialism...

Christ did preach charity (See Parable of the Good Samaritan; Luke 10:25-37)

I know that very early churches were almost like communes (sp?); but that was a special case (Acts 4:32-37). They were setting up to spread the Gospel to the world.
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Sunday, February, 24, 2008 5:57 PM Scottie writes:

Grey Ghost

Unfortunately, this preacher sees the government taking from those with more to give it to those with less as charity! I call it state sanctioned armed robbery. And therein lies the difference. He believes charity can be compelled, I see it as a voluntary act.
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Sunday, February, 24, 2008 6:16 PM PDX Dave writes:

Marxist doctrine on the rise

I hear it a lot of late, and those Democrats quoting it are completely nonchalant about it's source: "From each according to his ability. To each according to his need."

I feared that with the fall of the Soviet Union, the left would sooner or later wax nostalgic about it, ignoring the inherent inhumanity of communism and focusing on it's lofty humanistic rhetoric.

This is what you witnessed in your church: The wistful resurrection of Marxist dogma by a left who deeply mourned Communism's death in the Soviet Union. For this they will never forgive Ronald Reagan.

PDX Dave
Behind Enemy Lines in Portland, Oregon

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Sunday, February, 24, 2008 8:16 PM Sheila writes:

Scottie

New blog at my place...I mention you...wanted you to be the first to know!
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Sunday, February, 24, 2008 8:22 PM Scottie writes:

PDX Dave

Welcome to the Heartland Dave. It looks like we're going to have to reassign the loneliest conservative outpost award from BrianR to you. Portland Oregon! You should be getting combat pay, dude.

I think the good reverend is the most morally misguided person I've ever had the chance to meet. He's utterly unable to reason through the consequences of these old and discarded nuggets that properly reside on the ash heap of history.

I guess it's easy to ignore over a hundred million deaths these idiotic theories have visitied on humanity. In my previous essay "Being Methodist Means Never Facing Moral Issues" (see my featured columns list), I point out the church's seeming inability to even address the deaths of nearly fifty million babies here in the good old USA.

If they think socialism works, let them look to France and Germany for the inevitable results. Better yet, if they truly believe in socialism, let them move there and in so doing, raise the IQ on both sides of the Atlantic simultaneously!
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Sunday, February, 24, 2008 8:24 PM Scottie writes:

Sheila

Very considerate of you dear. On my way over.
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Monday, February, 25, 2008 9:12 AM Virginia Daddy writes:

I'd leave the church, too

Not a place for political indoctrination.

Even if I agree with it...
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Monday, February, 25, 2008 10:35 AM Scottie writes:

Virginia Pat

I agree. I sure don't look for religious inspiration from politicians, even those I happen to agree with.
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Monday, February, 25, 2008 6:59 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

what a coincidence

My wife and I were discussing Christianity and socialism a few days ago. I had not thought of it before. Gray Ghost beat me to it but, in fact, Acts is all about a Christian socialist society. I believe God does approve of it but I think it can only happen under special circumstances. It has been tried lately by atheists so it has failed.

On the other hand the bible talks about if you don't work you don't eat and how a man is supposed to provide for his family. Quite interesting. I'm going to study it a bit more and do an entry on it soon.

Moral equivalence amongst nations and societies and lifestyles is ridiculous.

I am blessed and quite happy with my common sense conservative church. Amen.
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Monday, February, 25, 2008 9:41 PM Scottie writes:

Scarlet Pimpernel

I look forward to reading your thoughts on the matter. Do stop by and plug it here; I'd appreciate a head's up when you post it.

If you haven't read it yet, may I direct you to one of my featured posts "Being Methodist Means Never Facing Moral Issues" from the archive. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.
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Monday, February, 25, 2008 10:05 PM Jimmy Carter writes:

I most certainly remember that..

....when that picture hit the web, that's when I composed the post "Capitalism vs. communism."
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 9:17 AM ScarletPimpernel writes:

much to say, Scottie

I just read your "Moral Issues" entry. First, I didn't know you were a former Catholic. Join the club. Maybe I just didn't do it right but your complaints about the Catholic Church are my complaints, and I'm sure, many others.

Second, I went to a couple of churches trying to find a home. They were the warm and fuzzy kind that leaned Left and avoided talking about sin. It was the Joel Osteen approach. I figured if I'm okay as is, why go to Church? I wanted to be taught and challenged and hear about right and wrong according to the Word.

I understand how comfortable it is for many folks to be lukewarm Christians but it is not for me.

Here's my pitch to everyone who likes a challenge: Why not try evangelical? We are not as scary as many think. I was even worried about the label but have found that this is what I was looking for. My faith preaches God's love as well as fire and brimstone. And we are encouraged to be active outside the church walls. That is probably why we are so small. We don't consider it "religion" but rather "relationship".

Anyway, if one is unhappy with a church one can either try to change it or try a different church.

I'm stepping down from the pulpit now.

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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 11:10 AM Gray Ghost writes:

Scottie, One Last Thing!

Don't walk away from your Church. Take it back. Debate your Preacher. Show him the error of his ways.

Christ never backed away from a fight. He debated (and won) against the Pharises in their "home court". it means you have to study both Old and New Testaments and be prepared to "back up" your arguments. But that is a good thing!
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 11:20 AM Nee writes:

Alas,

As my ability to "temper" sucks, I would have had to leave as well, and no way would I be able to "debate" as Gray Ghost suggests. If that is how the Preacher really feels, one will be hard-pressed to change that!!
Norks= North Korea? or 'Noids if you prefer,LOL
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 11:47 AM davecatbone writes:

charity vs. socialism

charity at the point of a gun held by the State. I can't see Jesus supporting that.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 12:02 PM 1maschrom writes:

Scottie


Alas, nothing stinks like being totally disillusioned by the leader of your church. I wish you good luck finding one that is not steeped in liberal, socialist rhetoric. ScarletP is lucky in that regard.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 1:15 PM ShiningCity writes:

Scottie...I have also seen

"interesting" perspectives held by ministers in my faith. My favorite minister is a guy named Ken Westby at ACD (we are not Methodists), but he's a die-hard conservative, and often does give sermons discussing points of conservative ideology.

My own minister, however, while I care very deeply for him, is a "pacifist" and sometimes includes "survey statistics" in his sermons that say things about how people in Denmark and other European nations are "happier" on various accounts. I have discussed some of these issues with him (especially the part about careful interpretation of stats), and he just laughs. Fortunately, he does not do this too much, or I do think I would have to look for another place for worship also. I couldn't stomach getting hit with this stuff every week.

My own opinion is that ultimately there will be a sort of "socialistic" system in the Kingdom of God under the supervision of Jesus Christ. But any other system which attempts to circumvent His participation in the process is doomed to failure. The tenants of Christianity (as I understand them) are strictly conservative & stress individual responsibility, eschewing of self and selfish desires, and productivity.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 1:16 PM ShiningCity writes:

I'm wondering...you said

that you walked out. What did your wife think?
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 2:26 PM Gray Ghost writes:

Scottie, I have an Advantage...

I am a member of the Church of Christ (not be confused with the United Church of Christ). The preacher is hired by the Church Elders and does not govern his particular church. Each Church stands on its own (i.e., no nationwide governing body). Also, I live in the South, where most everyone is conservative.

I have debated a Preacher before on Christians owning guns; and I did make the Preacher think. (He was a good man anyway; but he now owns a shotgun.)

Good Luck and may God help you in your decision.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 2:37 PM The Interface writes:

Nailed it spot on...

...on so many ways. Liberal theology is socialism brought into the church after biblical foundations have been abandoned and God declared dead and irrelevant. Historically, it's an old movement, and I could mention many an instance if this weren't a comments section. The pilgrim's initially tried this communal living and nearly killed themselves as it ignores man's sin nature and resulting selfishness and laziness (see Bradford's account...um, yes, he was there, unlike the revisionist who may have taught your history class). They saved themselves by returning to, horror of horrors (for the liberal mindset), the personal profit motive and the truly biblical rule that he who does not work does not eat (2 Thess 3:10-12).

As for leaving, both that particular service, and the church, I give you 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, which reads in part, "...what communion has light with darkness?...what part has a believer with an unbeliever?...therefore come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord." (Have I mentioned I'm one of those rabid independent fundamental Baptists? Stark raving mad, ya know?! I actually believe the Bible, pretty much literally too!)
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 2:39 PM Virginia Daddy writes:

Christian Socialism

Is a very different thing than government run socialism. When all want to do it and are motivated by helping others in that manner, it is, as Dave so well pointed out, is very different than when a gun is pointed at their heads...
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 6:30 PM Scottie writes:

WOWSERS!

Let me digest this thread and respond to you all individually. So many great points, and I have some time. I'm humbled by this response. Give me a minute to regroup.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 6:33 PM Scottie writes:

Scarlet Pimpernel

I'm tending towards going to the Baptists, which I believe is an evangelical branch. We share a lot in common indeologically you and I. I look forward to your posts here and on your blog. Thanks again for weighing in.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 6:43 PM Scottie writes:

Grey Ghost

I'm still sizing up this coconut before I try to crack it. The first consideration here is this isn't my church, it is the Missus' church and she's been a lifelong member, as are her parents, and a great many of her friends. I am an outsider, and have deliberately chosen to remain so.

I will likely debate the good reverend on equal terms outside of the church, but there is no benefit to being a skunk at the picnic on his own turf. So while I share your instinct to fight for what is right, first and foremost, that isn't likely the best course of action here.

I will challenge this vacuous ideology, but the time and place will not be in the sphere where he enjoys, perhaps without merit, the air of moral authority.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 6:54 PM Scottie writes:

Nee

I share your passionate temper, and as such, I must exercise great care here. I think the proper venue may be through the exchange of e-mails, where there is time to reflect on what I am saying, and time to avoid emotionalism. I am most comfortable when I can fully develop my ideas, and I seem to be developing a knack for doing so as a result of my time here in the trenches blogging.

Written exchanges have the benefit of one side speaking, and the other listening without interruptions. They also have the benefit of capturing exactly what was and was not said. Further, they have the benefit of the Missus' review and input before they are sent, and the option of setting a spell and rereading them "cold" to assure nothing out of line is said or implied.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 7:25 PM Scottie writes:

Shining City

The first thought that comes to mind is: "Lies, Damn Lies, and then there's statistics!" I don't mind stats if they come at the beginning of the thought process through objective means; but all too often they are offered to support a postion which had already been held anyway. And as a doctor, I'm sure you know that many statistics are generated to support a conclusion that had already been determined in advance, or at the very least "spun" to support the desired conclusions. The recent statistic that 25% of women will be raped while attending college comes to mind.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-mac_donald24feb24 ,0,4173776.story?track=rss
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 7:39 PM ShiningCity writes:

Exactly Scottie!

That's a great example of how stats are misused. I also think of that one that says something akin to how 1 in 4 women are raped some time in their lives. And it all boils down to how rape is defined (very loosely).
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 7:52 PM Scottie writes:

Shining City

For Socialism to work, it would require leadership of the divine. So far, humans have killed about 100 Million people trying to get the wrinkles in the theory ironed out to no good effect.

As for the Missus', she understands and supports my position. Also, my leaving during services isn't unusual (dieuretics can do that you know), it's the not coming back that tipped her off.

So long as I'm not stupid enough to put her in a position to choose between me and the church, which I would never do, we'll be fine.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 7:55 PM Scottie writes:

Dave Cat

Apparently if he can't pursuade people, the good reverend has no problem coercing them at gunpoint, so long as the ends are "fair".
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 8:11 PM Scottie writes:

1maschrom

I've been disenchanted with this church from the beginning. The last preacher was a sanctimonious vegan and true global warming believer. I was also privy to some pretty shady dealing on his part. So I wasn't very enthused to begin with. I stayed put to see what his replacement might be, and as you can see, we got a better speaker with even worse ideology. There's quite a few Baptist churches here in Terre Haute, I think I'm going to check a few of them out.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 8:34 PM Scottie writes:

Interface

Thanks for the passage citation, those are real gems. I think this socialist twist is a retrofit, a twisting of Christ's teaching to advance yet again this dismal philosopy under the guise of religion.

My question for the good reverend, supposedly a moral guide and leader of the church, is this: If morality is relative (e.g. the Palestinian Israeli issue), what do I need you for? If there is no overarching morally correct set of standards, what need is there for a moral leader? To wence are you leading us and to what purpose? Isn't this akin to taking painting lessons from a blind man?
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 8:37 PM Scottie writes:

Virginia Daddy

Amen to that my friend. Christianity is a voluntary construct, free will. I don't recall Jesus asking the government or the establishment for anything other than to be left alone to preach his message in peace.
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 10:28 PM Sheila writes:

Scottie

An interesting topic...I once rebutted a letter to the Editor on a similar subject...the assumption from the writer was that Jesus was a socialist!

Your post is right about this being a concern...

It's regretable that charity is described as socialism, and something the Church should ascribe to. I agree that is not Biblical, and should not be preached from any pulpit.

Christians as individuals are admonished to happily share with those in need, not through a gvnt bureaucracy confiscating money from one person to give to another!

Sad to hear this is happening from your pulpit...hope you find a good Bible based church, Scottie.


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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 10:35 PM Scottie writes:

Sheila

Well, I'll probably have to lower my standards some; to join a church that would have me as a member I mean.

h/t Groucho Marx
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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 10:40 PM Sheila writes:

Ha Scottie,

You sound pretty non-grouchy and reasonable to me! It's wise to check things for oneself from Scripture rather than accept everything said from the pulpit without question.

It might be worth asking your minister what he meant...;)

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Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 11:04 PM Scottie writes:

Sheila

Sorry dear, that was a reference to an old Groucho Marx line: I would never join a country club that would have me as a member.

I've spent many a good hour with the good book, and hopefully many more to come. Good advice, thank you.
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Wednesday, February, 27, 2008 12:37 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

Scottie

You may be seated:

My wife-to-be attended a church that I did not like much. We decided that we would both attend the same church when we married. I found one that we both liked and joined before we got married. Then she joined.

Our main reason for attending the same church is so we can pray together which strengthens our relationship. (we do pray together outside of church too, of course) We want to keep our lives entwined as much as possible.

Peace be with you in your decision making.

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Wednesday, February, 27, 2008 12:39 PM ShiningCity writes:

Scottie...

Yes, thank you for clarifying about your wife. But, I'm interested in her response to what the preacher actually said. How does she feel about staying at a church that espouses such teachings? From the review of your posts to others, it looks like she was there also through the Vegan shady minister too?

If you go to a baptist church, will she go with you or stay there?

I've been married a while and understand totally how people can be in a marriage, yet find certain ideals unacceptable when the other partner is completely content. And I do believe the two can figure out a solution that makes both happy, even if it requires going in separate directions for certain things. I'm just wondering how you would work it out.

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Wednesday, February, 27, 2008 2:33 PM ShiningCity writes:

Hey.

I want to weigh in.
http://shiningcity.blogtownhall.com/2008/02/27/christian_so cialism_an_old_testament_review.thtml

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Wednesday, February, 27, 2008 3:07 PM Scottie writes:

Shining City

My wife is very supportive of my position; however, this has been her church for nearly all her life, and her parent's church as well. They have seen many preachers come and go, with varying degrees of piety and of various political pursuasions. Her roots in this church run very deep and as do her bonds with her fellow congregants. She sees clearly what is bothering me, and it bothers her as well.

You are correct that I must tread carefully here, but I cannot abide what is happening in silence. The situation requires deep reflection on my part before I do anything further. All I can say for certain is that I cannot follow this man, nor can I accept what he is teaching. It is morally bankrupt from my point of view.
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Wednesday, February, 27, 2008 3:15 PM Scottie writes:

Scarlet Pimpernel

I think you've hit on the crux of the matter and I am currently pondering it at great length. The current situation definitely places loyalty and fortitude at odds with one another here. If you would, say a prayer for me and the Missus, that we will have the wisdom between us to work this through.
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Thursday, February, 28, 2008 2:19 PM The Interface writes:

Regarding the oxymoron of...

...Christian socialism, let me add, in a temporary moment of self-aggrandizement, you might be interested in this post that points out a critical distinction between biblical Christianity and socialism:

http://theinterface.blogtownhall.com/2007/09/13/the_value_o f_the_individual__911_thoughts_for_everyday.thtml
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Thursday, February, 28, 2008 2:54 PM Scottie writes:

Interface

Now THAT'S a rebuttal. Good job buddy.
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Friday, February, 29, 2008 9:47 PM ScarletPimpernel writes:

Scottie, btw

I posted on Christian Socialism...
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Saturday, March, 01, 2008 12:54 PM Sheila writes:

Scottie LOL

I like your sense of humor...I did get your joke...it fits with the line I've heard "if you find a perfect church don't join because it won't be perfect anymore"...:)

You sure have a tough decision there...
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Sunday, March, 02, 2008 8:28 AM Scottie writes:

Doc Steech

I have no problem with a church circulating the collection plate. Beyond the mundane matters of keeping the church itself functional and maintained, there is a Christian obligation to reach out to others, to sustain those that forego more lucrative endeavors for ministry, and to subsidize the costs entailed by those efforts.

However, I think the subsidy should be for acts, rather than financial contributions to larger organizations and efforts. This tends to comport with the idea that the larger and more distant the crusade, the less accounatble it becomes.

For example, I'm all for financing the effort to send volunteers to Mississippi this summer to help out with the rebuilding there. I will likely join that effort myself. And construction does require materials that must come from somewhere and fuel to go there, etc. This is "in the trenches" Christianity and I support it wholeheartedly.

I tend away from efforts to alleviate the suffering in Africa, thinking much is wasted, and the effort in fact causes more harm than good in the long run. Who will expend the effort to grow a crop when food is literally given away by the truckload? How does one reform a corrupt government when its ability to bring in outside support keeps it in power, despite its inability to make the country function in its own right?
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Sunday, March, 02, 2008 8:38 AM Scottie writes:

Sheila

I am corresponding with the good reverend and trying to bring him to see the light. In the end, socialism is nothing more than coveting the wealth of others, and usurping it for what one deems more worthy uses.

That any mortal possesses the ability to do so "fairly" is impossbile to demonstrate. That every mortal body that has attempted it thus far has made quite a hash of things is, on the other hand, fairly easy to demonstrate.

Since at its essence, it violates two of the ten commandments, I find it irreconcilable with proper Christian teachings.
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Sunday, March, 02, 2008 10:28 AM CW writes:

Excellent post

Over the years, as I’ve tried to understand what draws people to liberalism, I’ve come to realize that ideology is only half the equation – strategy is the other half, and it may be more important than the ideology itself. Your preacher employed at least two of the strategies that the Left relies heavily upon. First, they love to have a captive audience where they are in a position of authority and where instigating any debate or disagreement would bring great discomfort to most people. This is why teaching is a favorite profession for liberals. There’s nothing like a young, impressionable audience that’s easily cowed by peer pressure. Second, they know that they can avoid any substantive debate on serious issues, such as advocating socialism, if they present it in very simplistic and idealistic terms. Who is going to stand up in church and argue about sharing food, or that children dying is a bad thing? As your brilliant post illustrated, to truly understand the principles and forces involved with these issues requires complex thinking and discussion that are difficult to bring up in the midst of a sermon. My guess is that you weren’t alone in seeing the preacher’s sermon for the political indoctrination that it really was, but if nobody spoke up then the Left just scored again.
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Sunday, March, 02, 2008 6:56 PM Scottie writes:

CW

Couldn't agree with you more, and welcome to the Heartland. Always good to see a new face around here. Your observation regarding the one sided nature of a sermon, or college lecture, certainly has the ring of truth to it, as does the simple minded presentation of complex problems.

As it stands, my departure and continuted absence speak volumes, especially to those that choose to remain in silence. As in most churches, the substance of the discord is likely widely known at this point among the congnoscenti.
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Saturday, May, 17, 2008 7:09 PM voice_of_reason writes:

Religion and Socialism

Scottie,

I realize that you are now a wizard/lizard, and don't have as much time for TH-related activities. However, may I (respectfully) suggest the following links for some articles that are along similar lines:

http://voice.blogtownhall.com/2007/10/12/killing_us_softly, _with_that_s_word.thtml

http://voice.blogtownhall.com/2007/06/28/are_all_leftists_g odless_commies.thtml

http://voice.blogtownhall.com/2007/06/15/slouching_leftward _in_america.thtml

http://voice.blogtownhall.com/2007/06/15/trojan_horses_snea k_in,_along_with_judeo-christian_values.thtml

http://voice.blogtownhall.com/2007/05/29/illegal_immigratio n__good_samaritans.thtml

The last one is particularly appropriate given the fact that debate on Illegal Immigration is likely to get quite heated between now and Nov4th.
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