False Gospels and a People without Shame

to blur church and state. When Americans believe in another Gospel, you seem to expect a punishment that would apply to Israel when God's people were considered a nation.

But we don't such pronouncements against the state in the NT. And in the past, you said that the Church, which is not a nation, has replaced Israel.

The Church is made up of all Christians from every nation. And it seems to me that if we are following Christ, we should have a greater affinity for Christians from other nations than non-Christian Americans that can even include many of the founding fathers of our nation.

Where is the scripture that says the Jews are no more a people or nation?

We know of a certainty, that the spiritual Jews makeup the NT Church (Rom 2:29).

May I ask what prompted this question?

We may have different views of Romans 11:26. I do not mean to imply that the Jews will cease to exist, only that their most favored status has been lost forever; as a nation they were a figure in types and shadows of the kingdom of God, now realized in the NC church. Will you give me your view of Romans 11:26? I will give you a partial answer…


From the parables of Christ…

“He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons…the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.’ [Matthew 21 parable of the Wicked Vinedressers]

‘But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.’ [Matthew 22 parable of the Wedding Feast]


From the apostle…

’wrath has come upon them to the uttermost’. Please look at this in context in 1 Thessalonians 2.

C5 made reference to this, and I was wondering where this idea comes from.

I will look at your references when time permits later today (I hope).

I can tell you this, though. God has sometimes disciplined His people, but I have never read where He has removed their birthright (Romans 11:1,5). Remember His remnant? Are they not still Jews, and chosen of God, even though the NT Kingdom of God is spiritual, in the heart of man? He "chose" the Jews, did he not? How can they not be a people or a nation, today? Verse 25 clearly would seem to indicate a future reconciliation of sorts. Remember, His gifts and callings are without repentance (vs 29). Perhaps I (and others) have misunderstood you.

Thanks for the welcome. I thought about contacting you, as we went through Waco twice in the last week. You are near there, aren't you? It would have been nice to meet. Maybe sometime.

Yes, I’m about an hour north of Waco on I35W; I35 splits in Hillsboro, west to Fort Worth and east to Dallas. Burleson is about 30 miles south of FtW. You are welcome anytime. Yearly at the end of September our church sponsors a Founders Conference. There is always good preaching from men like Tom Ascol and Fred Malone. We would have a good time around the word.

I would like to begin to discuss Romans 11 with you. Yes, there is still a remnant of believing Jews. I think that is exactly Paul’s meaning. All Israel in v26 is the summation of all the remnants from every NC generation (verse 27 is a quote from Jeremiah 31). It is the election of grace that is irrevocable.

If there is a definitive teaching on this subject it must be taken from Galatians 3…

‘For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.’

I would read Galations and in addition to what Jesus said about those who are the true Children of Abraham.

Paul equates being a mere physical descendant of Abraham with the works of the flesh and law, not the work of the Spirit and promise (See Romans and Galations.

Thus, a true descendant of Abraham imitates Abraham's faith because God enabled him to do so. Those who do not believe in Jesus, do not imitate Abraham's faith. And remember what Jesus said in John 8:39 when he told the Jews that if they were the children of Abraham, they would be doing Abraham's works.

Romans 11 does mention the Jews but God's blessing on the Jews is through believing in Jesus, not outside of that.