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Comment on: Heartland Patriot

Some Thoughts on Immigration

58 Comments
Saturday, May, 26, 2007 1:49 PM davecatbone writes:

Emotion vs. Reason

The Liberal argument comes from emotion as always, and the need to be kind to the poor downtrodden - can't we just be nice?- has always clouded the reason of Liberals, as well as their recognition of a scheme to create a Socialist dream.

Your arguments are perfectly reasonable, but fall on deaf ears in the Left. It's the large Moderate Middle we need to persuade to see reason instead of emotion. Our conservative media could certainly help more with that, IMO.
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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 2:07 PM SLW writes:

Good article.

I agree. Check out my new blog "Let's get specific on illegal immigration."

Generalities are great, we can all agree on them.
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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 2:25 PM Jimmy Carter writes:

Not only were they expected...

...to assimilate into Our Own culture, but it was understood that immigrants were fleeing from their own and not to bring it Here.

I remember a court case that originated in Houston, Texas a year or two ago. A Hispanic woman sued a place of business because she said she was unlawfully discriminated against because the application was in English only and not in her native tongue, therefore unable to apply.

The Court of Appeals ruled in favor of the business 5-4. If she would have won, that would have led to a mandate to require all businesses to supply applications and workplace documents in every language spoken in America.

If I remember, I believe it was Ms. Schlafly who wrote the article. I am trying to find it.

Very well written post, Scottie.
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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 2:34 PM Jimmy Carter writes:

Another point:

I think the most important issue is about the respect for the rule of law. When that erodes, what are We left with?

My attempt at using Dr. Steech's tool; analogy.
A parent may tell Lil Johnny,"NO!" a thousand times, but if not backed up with punishment the parent loses all credibility and becomes a laughing-stock.
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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 5:04 PM BrianR writes:

Excellent, Scottie

Good work.

The system you described is actually the way our immigration system used to work up until about sometime in the 70s, when the McGovern wing of the Dem party started taking over and "American" values started disappearing from the Democrat and Left side of the aisle.

Unfortunately, I see no easy solution to the problem right now, and the current proposed legislation is an unmitigated disaster.

The bottom line on this new bill: Immediate amnesty.

Oh, the politicians create their smokescreen about other aspects, promising the moon with no intention of fulfilling the promises.

This time around, we're again promised all these ideas that sound great on paper: beefed up border securidad, toughened employer sanctions, better ID checking, etc.

But what's our experience been? Same promises in 1986, and all we got was the amnesty part. No Prez other than Reagan made the slightest effort to enforce or obey the law's mandates.

October 2006, we got the fence bill. Big brouhaha at its passage and signing ceremony. Only one problem: no enabling legislation was ever passed to fund the sucker. No money.

And that's what we'll see if this thing becomes law. Instant amnesty, no future funding or enforcement.

Forgive my skepticism, but it's based on experience and realism.


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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 6:36 PM Scottie writes:

Dave Cat

Hopefully this article will have some influence on the broad middle. Hope springs eternal. thank you for joining in here at the Heartland.
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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 6:39 PM Scottie writes:

Sandra

I hope you are correct. I think we will find even the reasonable assertions here will draw fire from some quarters. I'll be over to see your new post in a bit. Thanks for contributing here.
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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 6:43 PM Scottie writes:

Jimmy

5-4?! Wow! Maybe we need a Teddy Roosevelt as much as a new Reagan.

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 6:47 PM Scottie writes:

On the Rule of Law

from a post of mine at Sandra's blog earlier today:

Given how the 1986 Amnesty bill provisions were enforced, by what twist of the imagination do we suppose the current bill will be any more vigorously enforced than its predecessor? I don't feel out of line to be skeptical, indeed cynical, with respect to this new pack of fancy words with no teeth behind them.

Secondly, GWB took an oath to uphold the laws of the United States, and has utterly failed to do so with respect to the soverienty and security of our borders. He has a duty to enforce the law until it is changed. Instead he failed to do so and now points to the very problem his lack of enforcement created as justification for new legislation.

We don't need more empty words on paper, we need to summon the will to enforce the words that are already there.
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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 6:53 PM BrianR writes:

Scottie: Yes, it could

But a prerequisite is that they open their minds to logic, not simply party "rah rah"ism, particularly from the GOP.

A key element in assessing your chances of winning -- and in this case I'm talking about the next election -- is the willingness and ability to be objective about your own strengths and weaknesses.

This is where the GOP has been falling on its butt for about the last 10 years.

Look at warfare. That was the fatal mistake at Kasserine in WW2. The attitude was "Hey, we're AMERICA, Germany, we're here and and you're toast!"

Didn't work out so well; we got our butts kicked.

Hubris played a role at Pearl Harbor, the fall of the Phillipines, and almost at Midway. Japanese hubris was actually the deiding factor at Midway.

We're not immune! Nor do we have some God-given mandate nor guarantee to our survival! People need to wake the F--- up!

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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 6:57 PM Scottie writes:

Brian

Couldn't we at least TRY to enforce the law before we create more of it? I don't care that it is hard to do, I care that there is no will to do it.

We don't catch every bank robber, but it doesn't prevent us from dealing with those we do catch. Every time an illegal alien brushes up against the system and walks away, the system has failed to perform its function. Register your kids at school: Flag! Get pulled over for a traffic violation: Flag! Show up at an emergency room: Flag! Participate in a street demonstration for Mecha: Flag! Social Security Number invalid: Flag!

It's not like we can't find many or most of these people and deal with them. It's that we don't want to do the heavy lifting required to right our previous laziness. We aren't prepared to do what needs to be done and pay the price for our prior fecklessness. Instead we talk a lot while avoiding anything substantial.
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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 7:58 PM BrianR writes:

Scottie: Absolutely right

Man, I am definitely on-board!

You have exactly and precisely outlined the issue.

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Saturday, May, 26, 2007 8:00 PM Scottie writes:

Link to several good articles

on analysis of the current immigration reform bill from the Heritage Foundation:

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Misc/immigration.cfm

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Sunday, May, 27, 2007 8:29 PM Scottie writes:

Dunno Steech

Probably because more people read your blog than mine. That's probably because you're more active in the TH community than I have time to be.
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Monday, May, 28, 2007 5:10 PM BrianR writes:

Scottie and Company

A new essay up at the Island.

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Tuesday, May, 29, 2007 11:41 PM ch47 jockey writes:

great post Scottie

I think you nailed it with "We expected people to show an understanding of our collective culture, to understand and obey the laws of our country, to speak the language, and to discard the parts of their native culture that were incompatible with ours. This seems reasonable to me. If you want to join our club, you have to play by our rules and make the effort required to become a full fledged member of the team." the fact it is not easy to become an American citizen legally,but to grant amnesty to those who flout the law and come anyway is an insult to those who come here with the right mindset and abilities,wanting to be welcomed into the country instead of carving out their own little peice of what ever homeland they came from.
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Wednesday, May, 30, 2007 5:07 PM davecatbone writes:

President Bush

confounds me over his stance on immigration reform. His inflexibility to even consider changes doesn't square up with his commitment to national security and judicial appointments. I'm so disappointed in his attack on conservatives.
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Wednesday, May, 30, 2007 6:37 PM Jimmy Carter writes:

We'er thinking of...

..sub-contracting you, Scottie, to the Southern border to clarify the American Citizens' opinion on the current immigration issue.
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Wednesday, May, 30, 2007 8:15 PM Scottie writes:

Chopper Man

Good to see you here in the Heartland again, don't be a stranger.

Yep, If you want to be a citizen, you have to become an American. It isn't rocket science beyond the comprehension of mortal men.

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Wednesday, May, 30, 2007 8:20 PM Scottie writes:

Dave Cat

Bush is working on his legacy. He isn't up for reelection, he doesn't need the base's support, and he's always been soft on this issue. His record on enforcement speaks volumes. Even Slick Willie had a more impressive record.

On GWB's watch, the population of Illegal Aliens in this counrty effectively doubled. No one was made aware because the MSM didn't care to report it. Anyone on the Right bringing up the subject was shouted down as a racist or a nativeist or a xenophobe. Even the Minutemen were slandered by no less than the president himself as "vigilantes".
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Wednesday, May, 30, 2007 8:25 PM Scottie writes:

Jimmy

Throw in some good brisket, a couple of longnecks and I'm there.

Oops, the missus says she'd miss me too much if I went and I have to do my best from here. Sorry Jimmy, you've been overruled by a higher power. (But she can't do a good Texas Style BBQ brisket to save herself)
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Wednesday, May, 30, 2007 8:36 PM Jimmy Carter writes:

I understand..

..not even The Dictator of The United State of Texas can overrule THAT Executive Order.


Tell the Supreme Countess of The United State of Indiana to quit finding those "penumbras" in y'alls Constitution.
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Thursday, May, 31, 2007 11:43 AM BrianR writes:

Yeah, here's a comment

I left at Dave's last night on Bush's problem:

Here's the truly defining element: A President is rightfully viewed as the head of his party. He ran as a member of a party, promised to uphold party planks and principles, is the most visible member of his party, and is expected by his constituents to govern as if he meant what he said when he ran and would return their support and loyalty. Bush has basically taken the tack of giving his party and supporters the finger.

When Carter left office his approval rating was somewhere around 28%; Reagan left with a rating of over 70%. Bush is plunging into Carter territory, a man almost universally regarded as about the worst Prez of the 20th Century.

So by flipping off party members he not only spends his own political capital (remember his speech on "political capital"?), but that of the party in general, basically throwing it away and making it very difficult for others in the party now and later, who have to repair the damage he's done.

Further, as his popular support just plunges down the drain, he cripples his own ability to govern because he's burned all his bridges. Why do you think almost no one anymore comes to his support on the war? He's managed to make himself hated by all sides, that's why.

The guy couldn't possibly be any more politically incompetent if he tried.
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Thursday, May, 31, 2007 1:15 PM davecatbone writes:

You know

Bush just made it possible for all the GOPers to run against him in the next election. NOT Bush could help, not sure though.
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Saturday, June, 02, 2007 12:40 AM ch47 jockey writes:

hard to get by as often

took a 90 percent loss of operating capital,good money chasing bad. now I am back to punching a clock, luckily there was a company that expanded into my area recently and needed someone with helicopter knowledge,206 and 206l are the patients much smaller than I am used to but same principle. but with a 50 hour workweek it makes it hard to visit TH as much as before. Still reading the articles,just too tired to post some nights.
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Sunday, June, 03, 2007 3:15 AM BrianR writes:

Heads up

New essay up at the Island.
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Sunday, June, 03, 2007 9:52 AM Scottie writes:

Btrian

I think that Bush has been an abysmal communicator throughout his presidency. His speeches are syntactic train wrecks. He has failed to answer his critics forcefully, has failed to "sell" the administration's position, and is reaping the fruits of his inabilities.

I think DaveCat may be correct, running as NOT Bush may be the only viable strategy at this point.
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Sunday, June, 03, 2007 9:53 AM Scottie writes:

Chopper Man

Hang in there buddy. It will all work out. I appreciate how hard it is to find time when the food on the table is in jeopardy. Do what you must my friend; we'll still be here when you have time for us.
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Monday, June, 04, 2007 11:30 AM BrianR writes:

Scottie: LOL

I suspect that running as "not Bush" is going to be a popular tactic on BOTH sides of the aisle!
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Friday, June, 08, 2007 4:04 PM Husker Jeff writes:

Immigration

This debate is needed, but not now. I have a new post up that explains what I mean.

But of course, most politicians don't want to solve this. Business wants cheep labor and the Dems want reliable minority voters. Go figure.
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Sunday, June, 10, 2007 12:06 AM none06789 writes:

Good article

Well said. And we defeated the bill. When I say we, I mean the American people. For once we forced Congress to do our bidding, not theirs.

That's the trouble with Congress anyways, they're always talking about what "The American people want", yet they never ask what it is that we really want.

Instead, they try and shove garbage like the Immigration Bill down our throats. Then, they try and hide the actual bill, so we can't even read it?

Nice try Congress.

My advice to Congress: Put the bill in file 13 and leave it there. Then,take the trash out and burn it.
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Sunday, June, 10, 2007 12:19 AM Scottie writes:

Patriot Mortarman

Welcome to the Heartland. The bill was destined to go down to defeat. Now let's not forget who our friends and enemies were on this bill and vote accordingly during the upcoming primaries.

And put yet another notch among the many others used to keep track of the times John McCain stabbed his party in the back. They're not hard to find given his perpensity to attach his name to these outrages. McCain/Feingold, McCain/Kennedy, Gang of 14 (well there's an exception). . . .
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Sunday, June, 10, 2007 1:06 AM Husker Jeff writes:

McCain

I would vote for Democrat Ben Nelson as the Republican nominee before John McCain. In a speech explaining why he voted against the bill, he explained that all of the people want the border fixed first. McCain just does not match my views on much of anything except the war.
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Sunday, June, 10, 2007 1:52 PM none06789 writes:

Scottie

Ah, you figured out my little secret? Good job.

Oh I got a list of people that sided with us. I'll never vote for McCain. He's slipping fast anyways.

Even Jimmy-boy Webb voted against the bill. Maybe there really are a few good Demos in the mix.

I got this vision of a Congree like we had in WWII or Korea or even pre-war Vietnam with Johnson.

Dems and Repubs who were really interested in National Defense, and not political posturing, or wind checking to achieve it.

I'd vote for a Dem who had the guts of a Joe Lieberman who defied his party on Iraq. And even though his party dissed him in the election, he won anyways.

I hate Jim Webb. He's wrong on the war. But he was right on the Immigration Bill.

My point is, there are a few good Dems. And I'll remember them come election day.

On the other hand there are many in Congress that had their "macaca moment" and will pay the price at election time.

Bet you money that Harry Reid is one of them.
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Sunday, June, 10, 2007 8:22 PM Scottie writes:

Jeff

I think McCain is toast. I can't think of a single Republican constituency that he hasn't alienated in one fashion or another over the past few years.
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Sunday, June, 10, 2007 8:31 PM Scottie writes:

Patriot Mortarman

I was an 11B2PR my friend. Watch your tolerance level for Democrats buddy, it will NEVER be reciprocated.

The current immigration bill is a good case in point. For the past six years, the Dems have blocked virtually every significant piece of legislation with a block of forty senators. Now that the Reps are in the minority, the first thing they do is knuckle under to build "consensus" with the very Dems that have been kicking their teeth in when the roles were reversed. That's not statesmanship, it's foolishness.
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Monday, June, 25, 2007 5:19 PM jevica writes:

Scottie

Excellent post.

I have been going back and forth with Sanity102, and some guy named steve on this issue. They seem to have what I feel are strange ideas.

Again excellent and I agree with you.
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Monday, June, 25, 2007 6:01 PM Scottie writes:

Jevica

You're wasting yout time with (In)sanity. She's totally unhinged and beyond reasoning with. I avoid her when I can; you would do well to do the same. You are an articulate fellow with a keen mind; why waste such talent on the likes of her.

Just a heads up: you will soon be called a Bush Basher, a sell out to your party, and the proximate cause for the impending Republican defeat in 08. Drop back by and let me know how well my prediction worked out.
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Monday, June, 25, 2007 7:25 PM jevica writes:

Scottie

Those [on TH and talk hosts] that are speaking against the immigration bill already are. Seems like Sanity is going that way, if we continue against the bill [and this steve, is really out there].

Sanity is really down on the talk hosts who were against Miers in her SCOTUS nomination [stab Bush in back, etc.]

Scottie you are right on.

I don't want to get Sanity too upset but the discussion there is very much when I used to debate with my brother-in-law, he kept moving the goal posts whenever I made a point or answered his.

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Monday, June, 25, 2007 7:38 PM Scottie writes:

Jevica

We probably disagree on the current immigration bill, and I would be happy to discuss it with you in a rational manner.

I'm sad to say you won't get that from the Outside of the Box or Word to the Wise crowd, but you are free to try if you feel you must.

This bill suffers as much from process as it does from content. There is absolutely no resson border control need be linked to any other provisions in the bill. The congress and POTUS have zero credibility on the issue. I could go on, but you get my drift.
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Monday, June, 25, 2007 7:40 PM Scottie writes:

And Harriet Meiers?

Most unqualified candidate ever proferred EVER. You could tell cuz the Dems supported her!
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Monday, June, 25, 2007 9:17 PM jevica writes:

Scottie

If you support the current bill, as written, then we disagree.

Enforcement first. If we can/won't enforce what we have now, then what makes everyone think they will do it with a new bill?
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Monday, June, 25, 2007 9:36 PM Scottie writes:

In that case Jevica

We are of a feather. I agree 100%. We don't need more law, we need the will to actually do something instead of talking the problem to death.
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Tuesday, June, 26, 2007 4:29 AM jevica writes:

Scottie

I see what you mean on your comment from 5:59PM they do have some strange ideas about debate.
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Wednesday, June, 27, 2007 1:14 PM jevica writes:

Scottie

Thanks for your comment on my blog.

The two blogs you mentioned are the reason I put up that post. I have been trying to explain to Sanity that I can support Bush on the WOT, economy, etc. but disagree of the immigration bill. It seems to be an uphill battle. And this guy steve is really annoying.
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Wednesday, June, 27, 2007 3:05 PM Scottie writes:

Well Jevica

Make sure you wipe your shoes when entering the Heartland; we don't need any Steve tracked in here!
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Thursday, June, 28, 2007 5:16 AM jevica writes:

Scottie

Believe me that hill is real steep. Seems like I'm not allowed to not support the bad immigration bill.
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Thursday, June, 28, 2007 7:55 AM Scottie writes:

The Irony

is the reason the party is fracturing is directly attributable to the blind support advocated by these people. They think they are the solution when in reality they are at the center of the problem.
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Friday, June, 29, 2007 5:03 AM jevica writes:

Scottie

Don't let me go "outside of the box" anymore. The quicksand is too deep, and it's like swimming against the tide.

I'll save you the trouble "I told you so."

At least the immigration bill is dead.

I'll just post to my own blog and comment at sane places.

Be well
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Friday, June, 29, 2007 7:42 AM Scottie writes:

Jevica

One can tell a child as often as one will, but it isn't until the child suffers an actual burn that the true nature of fire is internalized and remembered.

I admire your desire to reach out, and lament that your hand was singed. Alas, so it goes . . .
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Friday, June, 29, 2007 2:47 PM jevica writes:

Scottie

I did try to reach out but it just became toooooo
much of a chore.

There are other blogs [commenters] on TH that think Box lady is great. I know you have your own opinion of her, I'm starting to agree.

BTW thanks for the comment on my post.
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Friday, June, 29, 2007 6:45 PM Jimmy Carter writes:

Too funny.

"I told you so," quicksand, singeing his hand, "Box lady"

Hilarious!!
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Saturday, June, 30, 2007 12:37 AM Scottie writes:

Jevica

I always encourage people to make up their own minds. But when you run into many people that appear sane; and all of them concur that your chosen path is not; best to pack some extra undies and prepare for a long hard slog. Glad to see you survived and managed to get back [Inside of the Box]! Live & Learn Jev
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Saturday, June, 30, 2007 12:39 AM Scottie writes:

Jimmy

How in blue blazes did you find this little conversation way down here in this backwater corner or the Heartland? Spooky!

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Saturday, June, 30, 2007 12:48 AM jevica writes:

Scottie

I'm glad I survived, being here and the "Island" and other "sane" places will be enough for me.

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Saturday, June, 30, 2007 9:40 AM Scottie writes:

Welcome Back Jev

I'm glad you survived your idealism and openmindedness. Like fire, you have to experience the truly intolerant and unhinged before you truly understand how impervious to reason some people can be.
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Saturday, June, 30, 2007 3:42 PM Jimmy Carter writes:

"I've been everywhere, man...

I've been everywhere, man
Crossed the deserts bare, man
I've breathed the mountain air, man
Of travel I've had my share, man
I've been everywhere..."
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Saturday, June, 30, 2007 3:48 PM Scottie writes:

Jimmy

It's hard to argue otherwise my well-travelled friend. Touche'
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