In response to:

Why the War Party Fears Hagel

wpqr Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 10:41 AM
The problem with Hagel's views is that if you take the military option against Iran off the table and end the sanctions, what is the point of negotiations? Does he really trust this regime to negotiate in good faith if we tell them ahead of time that no action will be taken against them?
skip59 Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 11:50 AM
That is exactly the problem. What the lefties commenting here hope we will ignore is the poor behavior of the Iranian regime.

First and foremost Iran has repeatedly demonstrated bad faith during the so called negotiations. They made a fool of Javier Solana and continue to simply lie at every opportunity. What they need is time and stalling at the negotiation table is way to obtain it. Remember, the Iranians are closely allied with the North Koreans who set the benchmark for stalling negotiations when the began to demand changed to the shape of the table used for the conferences. Iran is simply doing the same thing.

skip59 Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 11:45 AM
That is exactly the problem. What the lefties commenting here hope we will ignore is the poor behavior of the Iranian regime.

First and foremost Iran has repeatedly demonstrated bad faith during the so called negotiations. They made a fool of Javier Solana and continue to simply lie at every opportunity. What they need is time and stalling at the negotiation table is way to obtain it. Remember, the Iranians are closely allied with the North Koreans who set the benchmark for stalling negotiations when the began to demand changed to the shape of the table used for the conferences. Iran is simply doing the same thing.

skip59 Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 11:49 AM
Further the left is engaged in magical thinking if they really believe that Iran will modify its behavior absent a serious threat of military intervention. Remember these are the guys that killed innocent citizens of Buenos Aires and got away with it. This is evil and we should recognize it as such. Instead of engaging in childish name calling perhaps folks such as RyanM can offer concrete proposals for halting Iran's plans. I doubt it. Beating up on Americans is vastly simpler than facing a world that is based on the aggressive use of force.
RyanM Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 12:32 PM
Skip,

I don't worry about Iran. It isn't a threat and the Iranian armed forces aren't the Wehrmacht. I worry about the crazies here and in Israel and what form of stupidity they will demonstrate next.

By the way, you make a mistake in assuming that everyone who is against this stupid idea of bombing Iran is on the left. You need to get beyond the phony left/right paradigm so beloved by neocon talk radio.
skip59 Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 12:40 PM
Tell ya what pal, I'll decide what's important in my life. I don't need your advice, thanks so much.

I don't know what your political proclivities are and I don't much care. But it is clear that all you've got is name calling and ad hom. Given the lack of debate skill and fact you exhibit, coupled with the boldness with which you assert your ignorance, it is quite safe for me to conclude that you are a liberal. Are you embarassed to be so named? YOu certainly should be.
RyanM Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 1:04 PM
It wasn't a debate, skip, as the point that Corbett and I made flew right over your head. Neither of us approve of wasting money for overseas or domestic nonsense. Corbett's right, Turn off the radio and attempt to preform an action you haven't done in years. Try using critical thinking skills and think intelligently for a change.
skip59 Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 2:00 PM
notice the baggage. To you it is "waste" as if your opinion is the only operative opinion in the country. I hardly think so.

Further you continue to demonstrate a level of bigotry that only the left currently possesses. What do you know about me? NOTHING. You are just engaging in the kind of stereotyping that we opposed in the civil rights movement. I disagree with you (imagine the nerve) so the only choice you have is ad hom and name calling.

Thanks oh so much for proving my point about you. All you have is name calling and ad hom. That's it. So given the limited tool set you possess, it is only natural that you'd demonstrate your ignorance just as forcefully as possible.
JustMC Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 3:35 PM
Let's see. Skip and Ryan disagree over defending Israel. Ryan wants to stay out of it, but is happy to allow Skip to go to Israel and pick up a gun, or to let Skip start writing checks to Israel to buy weapons or mercenaries or whatever.

But Skip isn't satisfied with that. Skip chooses to point guns at Ryan to SEIZE his money by threat of force, to send that money to Israel, against Ryan's will. And Skip is willing to send American boys, who surrendered their freewill in good faith to defend the USA, to fight and die to defend a country that is not the USA. Also under the threat of force against those American soldiers, if they disobey orders to defend a country they didn't sign up to defend.

And thus, Ryan is a bigot.
Corbett_ Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 5:15 PM
JustMC: That about sums it up. If these people are so dead set on the defense of Israel, there are flights every day. Let them get on a plane and walk the walk. Or, if they cannot bring themselves to do that, let them put THEIR money where their mouths are.
Corbett_ Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 11:02 AM
First of all, the sanctions are not effective, so what is the point of keeping them in place? Second, the military option IS off the table. We simply cannot afford another war in the Middle East. You act as if you think our economy is doing well and that we are not in debt.

Shouldn't our policy be touched by realism? Or should we allow talk radio fantasies to drive our foreign and defense policies?
RyanM Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 11:01 AM
No, the problem is that US foreign policy is dominated by a collection of warmongering neocons who want nothing less than another war for Israel. This isn't in the best interest of America for a number of reasons, one of the most important is that the US is broke.
Corbett_ Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 11:10 AM
Ryan:

There is a HUGE disconnect between these people's stance on the economy and on war. People like wpqr will be on other threads bemoaning the fact that the US is broke and in debt, but they act like we have all the money in the world where the military is concerned. This is especially true when they propose a war with Iran. They seem to think that war with Iran will be free of cost.
RyanM Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 11:24 AM
Corbett,

I've noticed that. I note that neocon talk radio show hosts like Hannity and Limbaugh suffer from this disconnect as well. Funny how the US doesn't have any money laying around for the social program nonsense but has a trillion or so laying around for another stupid war in the M.E.

As for paying for this maybe they'll trot out the refurbished lie that Iranian oil exports will pay for it once Iran is "liberated".
wpqr Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 11:49 AM
Nobody , neither the United States nor Israel "wants" a war with Iran. And to be honest, I don't really have an answer. The choices seem to be bad or worse. However, unlike a lot of other people, the thought of a nuclear armed Iran terrifies me.
And it has nothing to do with Israel.
skip59 Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 11:52 AM
This is more silliness. It isn't the amount of money we have, it is the uses to which that money is put. YOu're underlying assumption is that rather than defend ourselves we must insure that EBT cards never default.

And yes, I'm calling it social program nonsense. I do this because I live in the hood and I see the abject failure of liberalism each and every day.
Corbett_ Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 11:52 AM
Ryan:

Yeah -- just like Iraqi oil paid for THAT misbegotten war...

They can't even think of any original lies.
RyanM Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 12:01 PM
Corbett,

It is funny to see them recycling old lies for new ones. And to think, all the neocons have to do is change one letter, a "Q" for "N".
Corbett_ Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 12:12 PM
Skip:

There is a HUGE difference between defending ourselves against attack and going out and starting a war. Furthermore, our debt is the biggest threat to national security that we face. Our debt will push us into hyperinflation and national collapse. There is no need to hasten that day by starting yet another war.
Corbett_ Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 12:26 PM
wpqr -- Natanyahu DOES want a war. He has been trying to get one started for 20 years.

As for being afraid of Iran with nukes, don't you think that the time for that is when there is some evidence that they are building a bomb? No one has any such evidence. And the CIA says that if they ever start building a bomb, we will have at least a year or two prior knowledge before they get one.
skip59 Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 12:31 PM
Our debt? Again, it gets back to your assumption that the EBT cards must never default even if America needs to weaken itself. I don't agree with that at all. for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the simple fact that we only have a government for protection. We don't need a government to insure we get food, we'll do that on our own.

Who said anything about starting another war? My position must be too nuanced for you. The serious threat of military intervention has to remain part of the negotiations. Iran has repeatedly proved that nothing else much matters to them.

Nice try though.
Illbay Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 5:04 PM
No, the problem is you creeps throw around labels like "neocon" as if that's all you need to say to end the argument.

All "neocon" means is a former Leftist - usually of Jewish extraction - who has since shifted his stance toward pro-American foreign policy.

To you people, ANY foreign policy is wrong-headed, so you come up with stupid pointless labels like "neocon" to keep yourselves from having to explain that you are complete neoPHYTES when in comes to understanding that this world is a dangerous place for America and Americans without keeping ourselves ever vigilant.

Children.
Corbett_ Wrote: Dec 28, 2012 5:12 PM
Skip:

You clearly don't understand American politicians. They are not going to just give up their main means of reelection -- spending. Already, the rest of the world is staying away from US debt. So the government's answer is to roll the printing presses. Hyperinflation destroys nations. And hyperinflation is what we face. Let's not bring it about faster by starting an unnecessary war.

As far as the "military option" being on the table, it isn't. Look at a map. Iran can close the Persian Gulf and cripple the world economy -- including ours. We have already had 2 "cake walks" in the area. We should have learned by now that they are anything but.
In the fortnight since Chuck Hagel's name was floated for secretary of defense, we have witnessed Washington at its worst.

Who is Chuck Hagel?

Born in North Platte, Neb., he was a squad leader in Vietnam, twice wounded, who came home to work in Ronald Reagan's 1980 campaign, was twice elected U.S. senator, and is chairman of the Atlantic Council and co-chair of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board.

To The Weekly Standard's Bill Kristol, however, Hagel is a man "out on the fringes," who has a decade-long record of "hostility to Israel" and is "pro-appeasement-of-Iran."

...