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The Conservative Showdown Yields a Winner

wmou Wrote: Apr 27, 2012 11:41 AM
Yes providing for the national defense is in the constitution. Madison believed in enumerating the central govt;s powers, so it would be limited to only those things authorized.
Wendy60 Wrote: Apr 27, 2012 3:33 PM
Rick, you are self-delusional. Your statement that Madison would support a welfare state defies any sort of historical or rational verissimilitude. How can you live with yourself spouting this obvious garbage?
Rick5105 Wrote: Apr 27, 2012 2:16 PM
Madison was a student of history and a student of human nature. If madison was alive today, do you think he would be content to quote 225 year old pearls? Absolutely not. He would learn all he could.

Federalist 41 and 51 reveal his thinking process. Quotes about him being against benevolence in government reveal only his conclusions at the time.

Just think...

(A) can you stop generous people like my mother-in-law from voting for government to be benevolent?

(B) can you stop selfish-people from voting for government to be generous (so they can receive)?

No you can't. You can't stop benevolence in government any more than we can stop people from being greedy, or being ambitious.

wmou Wrote: Apr 27, 2012 12:25 PM
Projecting what Madison would believe today is not realistic. Based on everything I have read about him, he would fight hard against the central government being benevolent and would leave that up to the states and individuals.
Rick5105 Wrote: Apr 27, 2012 11:47 AM
Yes, but I think you missed my point.

My point is Madison (if alive today) would change his opinion on those enumerated powers and specifically authorize the federal government to be in the benevolence business (under a strict cap, and possibly the pressure of a prioritized budget).

My argument is that he would do so because it would be clear to him (today) that keeping benevolence out of government is impossible if you allow everyone to vote. And so he would allow it, but cap it, and make priorities more transparent so only the most benevolent spending could win.

That makes Madison a "reform conservative", not a libertarian-conservative.

WASHINGTON -- The last few years have been the most decisive and divisive ideological period since the early 1980s, perhaps since the late 1960s. Barack Obama has pursued Keynesian economics on a breathtaking scale, racking up three deficits in excess of a trillion dollars and presiding over a national credit downgrade. In a march of partisan votes, he passed a health reform plan that relies on unprecedented federal powers to reorganize one-sixth of the economy.

The ultimate success or failure of grand executive ambition is measured by its effect on the other ideological side. Opposition to the Reagan revolution...

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