In response to:

Immoral Beyond Redemption

Warren81 Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 11:38 AM
As someone on Social Security, I do not like when it is implied that I am getting a "handout"! I and my employers paid into it si9nce I was in high school. Since that time the stock market has increased in value by at least 20 fold. Because the Federal Government can NOT manage money, SS is now a problem blamed on the people who receive payments. I'll bet MetLife or some other reputable Cos could have done better.
DocA Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 12:57 PM
Actually, you were getting the handout when your employer was forced to match what you put in for social security. Also, the people who are receiving the payments now are the same ones who continued to elect the people who were spending their retirement money.
Warren81 Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 1:59 PM
Not true that was part of my pay package!
conservative_librarian Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 2:08 PM
the problem is you werent actually promised a pay out
you were promised as part of your compensation that withholdings would be removed from your check and matched by your employer (if not self employed) to meet those tax obligations that if not met would result in you being penalized or jailed.
you were not jailed (?) and therefore the compensation has been met
Paulus Textor Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 12:26 PM
When a Ponzi Scheme fails--as it eventually must--lots of people get really angry. The question is: do they blame the wrong people?

In Warren81's case, the guilty party (as with all Ponzi Schemes) is the guy who originally set up the flim-flam: the sainted FDR (sarcasm intentional).
Corbett_ Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 12:19 PM

You realize that the money was spent by the politicians. In other words it was stolen and is now gone. Does that give you the right to take money from today's workers? THEY didn't steal your money, did they?
Warren81 Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 1:57 PM
The politicians are their elected representatives, and they are the ones taking from them,
(todays workers) not me. All insurance/retirements could be called Ponzi Schemes by some but insurance Cos invest and continually monitor demographics and adjust so they do not
loose money and are still able to meet their obligations.
Corbett_ Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 3:20 PM
Warren -- you are the one getting the money. So you are the one taking from today's workers. Just because you have some hired guns in the form of government do the dirty work for you doesn't change that fact.
conservative_librarian Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 12:10 PM
while I can sympathize with the situation, it is misguided to believe the government owes you anything. while the system has been touted as a retirement vehicle, and many people have that expectation... that is not what the law says. this is regardless of whether the money should have been managed differently (which it obviously should have). at any time they can change the benefits/requirements, and they should have been actively doing this all along (when established the avg lifespan was only a few years longer than the beginning of payouts as one example of a major demographic change that has never been accounted for)
conservative_librarian Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 12:14 PM
further we need to move away from a thinking that requires the system remain in place to pay obligations. as you have touched on... there was a lot of money paid in that was looted for other purposes instead of being invested. for all intents and purposes this leaves us with IOUs from the general fund. for the general fund to make good on these IOUs, we dont need Social Security withholdings in the future... we need taxes that are going in to the general fund. we can entirely scrap the farce that is the social security withholdings system and migrate to a general tax strategy that pays current obligations and future obligations while phasing this failure of a pseudo 'retirement' system
OldEnoughToKnowBetter Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 11:50 AM
Agreed, Warren. I'd happily go my own way if the government would simply give me my money back (and the money that my employer was forced to pay instead of paying me), but NOOOO, they've already spent that money. It's all a legalized Ponzi scheme to buy votes.
oldnjal Wrote: Jun 06, 2012 11:58 AM
If, as the politicians promised, Social Security was kept and not used as a sort of Ponzi Scheme, or confiscated, to meet other obligaitons, there would be more.
As it is, also, Warren paid in dollars, perhaps worth a dollar, and is getting back dollars, perhaps, comparatively worth 18 cents.
An ice-cream cone may have cost him 20 cents, when he started working. Check the price, now.
Benjamin Franklin, statesman and signer of our Declaration of Independence, said: "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." John Adams, another signer, echoed a similar statement: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." Are today's Americans virtuous and moral, or have we become corrupt and vicious? Let's think it through with a few questions.

Suppose I saw an elderly woman painfully huddled on a heating grate in the dead of winter. She's hungry and in...