In response to:

War of 1812: Waging War With the Navy You Have

Walter115 Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 7:35 AM
I trust Prof McCranie pointed out that Article I, Sect. 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the power to raise an Army and to MAINTAIN a Navy. You can train up a soldier in 3 months, but to build and equip a warship takes years.
Jay Wye Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 9:27 AM
it also takes a long time to build modern fighter jets and armored vehicles. The US doesn't have the manufacturing base it had in WW2. Modern warfare consumes combat aircraft,armored vehicles,and ammo at very high rates. To stop the F-22A at only 100-odd planes is stupid,especially for an F-35 that isn't even completely developed yet.
KPar Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 1:31 PM
Hello, Jay,

The response to your comment is rather complicated. The US mfg base isn't what we had in WWII, but we didn't have that base at the beginning of WWII, either.

The big push for "efficiency" and maximizing use of available resources has reduced the amount of "spare" capacity- I think that is what you were getting at.

"Modern" warfare may or may not consume large numbers of fighting aircraft, armor, and ships- our military leaders have placed their bets on superior quality making up the difference- I guess we'll find out if that's the right call, eventually...

Stopping production of the F-22 greatly increases the per-unit cost of the plane, giving its critics another shot at the program (just like anti-nuclear nuts filing
KPar Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 1:36 PM
lawsuit after lawsuit against powerplants, then complaining about the cost of nuclear power). A more legitimate question about the F-22 is "what is the mission of such an 'over-capable" aircraft?" Are we paying for something we don't need? Ask Col. Ralph Peters his opinion and stand back!

The F-35 does not have the same mission as the F-22. It would properly be called the F/A-35.
Reginald10 Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 3:50 PM
"A more legitimate question about the F-22 is "what is the mission of such an 'over-capable" aircraft?" Are we paying for something we don't need?"

Well, it depends... Did we know that the B-52's were going to be in use 60 years later? Had we any idea what enemies and weapons they might encounter, 60 years later? Were they "overbuilt" for their current missions?

We can't know what enemies we will face, from Jihadis with suicide bombs to Aliens with miles-wide flying saucers. I'd rather have more-capable, than less-capable, weapons systems - just so we won't have to turn around and replace them in 10 years, when The Next Big Thing comes along.
Jay Wye Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 7:26 PM
having a small number of "high quality" weapons systems means that when you LOSE one of them(inevitable),it has a much greater effect than if you lose one of something you've got thousands. Plus,those complex weapons systems take longer to build.

So what we have NOW is all we're going to have for the duration of a war.

Sherman tanks were relatively poor tanks compared to German tanks,but we made FAR more of them; we lost many in battle,but we had made so many more that we still had superiority on the battlefield.
Jay Wye Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 7:28 PM
we have less than 100 B-52's,less than 100 B-1A's,and only 20 B-2 bombers.

New START requires we dispose of some of those delivery systems,BTW,since they are "dual-use" and can be used to deliver nuclear weapons.
KPar Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 11:09 PM
Burt Rutan developed a really cheap "Mudfighter" back in the 80s- you could have a hundred of 'em for the price of 1 F-22. I still wonder what the best way to spend that money is. Your point is well taken.

BTW, I also caught the "Footfall" reference above. It's been a pleasure corresponding with you...
Dr_Zinj Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 9:03 AM
Actually, liberty ships took an average of 42 days to build in WWII, one being doing in less than 5 days.
Mare Island constructed the destroyer USS Ward in less than 2 months.

If we needed to, we could build the facilties from scratch to construct and launch a nuclear-powered spaceship between destroyer to battleship in size within 6 months - provided we didn't mind the radioactivity from the launch fallout.
Jay Wye Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 9:29 AM
somebody is thinking of Niven-Pournelle's Footfall....

But the US today doesn't HAVE the heavy manufacturing that we had in WW2.
PatV Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 11:04 AM
Actually no. Virtually all the commercial ship-building is dead. What private concerns are left are totally dependent on the Gov't for ship construction. Newport News shipbuilding (Huntingtion-Ingals (I think now)) Is the only yard that builds Aircraft Carriers and General Dynamic in Groton shares submarine construction. Bottom line there is little shipbuilding capacity to convert for wartime construction as was the case during WWII.

Commercial yards in Californial, Mass, R.I, Charleston all started closing down in the 60s, as commercial shipbuilding shifted to other countries. Our repair work for Navy ships are done by a combination of private and government yards that no longer build ships (Puget Sound, Portsmouth Naval Shipyard,
PatV Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 11:05 AM
so our ability to convert for rapid expansion is limited. Unfortunately.
Selek Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 11:58 PM
Nor anything like unto it.
para_dimz Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 8:35 AM
We were quicker than that in WWII.
Selek Wrote: Jul 11, 2012 11:57 PM
Actually, the pre-war buildup began (depending upon whose numbers you use) as early as 1935.

Yes- once American industrial might was FULLY brought to bear on the problem, we were knocking out ships as though from a printing press. But that re-tooling took years to accomplish.

The other problem (especially with the Liberty ships) was that the vessels were considered "disposable" and were both incomplete and barely habitable. It took a lot of time and manpower underway to correct the basic deficiencies the crews inherited with their new ships.

By way of reference, the Navy had to discard over half of the WWI four-piper destroyers rushed into service because they were so poorly constructed and were falling apart.
silentCalfan Wrote: Jul 12, 2012 3:59 AM
Victory ships were successors to the Liberty ships, and were slightly bigger and much better built. From laying the keel to delivery took about 90 days. In the mid-sixties I spent 3 years on one, an attack transport, USS Renville (APA 227), delivered to the Navy in November 1944. I thoroughly enjoyed the sea duty, although standing engine room watch in an ambient temperature of 130 degrees was a bit uncomfortable. On our trips to Vietnam we carried 1200 U.S. Marines and they hated it. My best memory of that time was serving under Capt. Frank Ault, a great skipper who later captained USS Coral Sea and started the Top Gun school. As chief engineer I supervised Renville's decommissioning in early 1967.
Last month (June 18) marked the 200th anniversary of the start of the War of 1812. In this "second round" of the Revolutionary War, a weak, aggrieved yet ornery United States confronted its former colonial master, the eminently powerful but also riled Great Britain.

The diplomatic vocabularies of several current international conflicts echo, albeit distantly, 1812's route to war. Economic sanctions and (backfiring) embargoes aggravated U.S.-British relations. Britain's apparent lack of respect for U.S. sovereignty angered Americans. The forced "impressment" of U.S. sailors into Royal Navy service, usually backed by the threatened broadside of a RN warship, was a Yankee cause...

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