I hope that was clear by the last sentence in my post. I just believe that in some areas, especially those not directly concerned with our spiritual well being, God is content to have us try, fail, and try some more to organize our temporal affairs in what ever way we can agree to. In this regard I don't mean collective in terms of a socilist outcome, but as a collective effort to arrive at a solution. Unfortunately, sometimes we might get a socialist outcome from our collective effort. We should have learned by now that the market can produce a better result. Alas, we try, fail, and try some more.