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Fuzzy: A reasonable answer, though I think that something dropped out of that last sentence. On the other hand, it does seem to me that the libertarian label is used by a whole range of people, starting with constitutionalists and "19th century liberals" and going on to some outright libertines.
IT: This is in response to your suggestion that I am attributing vile motives to you. I actually suspect that quite a few people feel very good about themselves for their efforts to promote hedonism, materialism, and selfishness. They think that such things are "liberating" men from the dead hand of superstition, pre-scientific modes of thinking, myth, etc. etc. What matters, of course, is not how they feel, or their subjective "good" intentions, but the catastrophic results. Or are you just sensitive on this point because you know, as I do not, the nature of your own motivations?
Organized hostility MAY beget organized defense. If the objects of the hostility are weak and selfish, it may equally well beget cowardice, flight, and an attempt by the clever to make sure that others are eaten first so that they will be eaten last. Even on the entirely secular level, I am not sure that promoting hedonism and materialism and indifference to kin and country is a good idea.
Cf: Is it that low already? Well, I fear that we will find out in due course that the few, as in "Many are called, few are chosen," are very, very few indeed.
Teaching children the Ten Commandments and the Our Father is akin to pedophilia, but teaching them to put rubbers on bananas in first or second grade is just fine?
When we do bad, we SHOULD feel guilty.
If you do not have a virtuous people, a government that reflects the values (such as they are) of those people cannot and will not force them to be virtuous. Conversely, if you have a reasonably virtuous people, it is likely to be sufficient to promote their staying that way. A very good argument can be made, I think, for the proposition that the maintenance and preservation of a modicum of virtue and of the institutions that foster it does fall under "the general welfare" or, the older term, "the common good." Practically, the moral issues that are also politically significant boil down to abortion and gay marriage. Well, would a restoration of the legal regime that prevailed before Roe v . Wade or a roll-back of today's pro-sodomy court decisions be an intolerable assault to our liberty? Would a libertarian really care to argue that we were an unfree people for all those years because abortion and sodomy were legally disadvantaged and that we are all better off because of recent developments?
True, but in the meantime it is going to be a nasty ride and many souls will be lost.
Countering the silly with the sarcastic, IT. No logical fallacy at all.
"[T]hey demand freedom from political oppression in the hope of instituting religious oppression." I can assure you, IT, that there really is a vast conspiracy of Christian fundamentalists out there, preparing to put videocams in your bedroom, to take away your prophylactics, to make you wear heavily starched underwear, and to burn you at the stake if you are not "saved." Yes, sir, just last week the members of this vast conspiracy held a meeting to review the situation and assign tasks. I can tell you that much, because the conspiracy is so vast and so powerful, not to mention that it is so well hidden, that there is nothing you can do with that information. I would tell you the location of the phone booth where the meeting took place, but we have to retain a few secrets until our plot comes to fruition. [sarc off]
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