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In response to:

Gay Weddings and Free Association

Sandy511 Wrote: Sep 08, 2013 3:17 PM
" preconceived ideas of right and wrong instilled by a belief system not based in reality " Sounds like Christianity to me.
In response to:

Gay Weddings and Free Association

Sandy511 Wrote: Sep 08, 2013 3:17 PM
I would hardly expect the people of Miss Black America to turn to the very institution that excluded them, twenty years later, and say, "Oh, NOW you allow us? Great, let's dissolve our organization so that we can now bow to the people who didn't want us in the first place." I think that is an incredibly ridiculous thing to expect them to do, but I guess that makes makes me a bigot. I'm sure you feel better about yourself by calling me that.
In response to:

Gay Weddings and Free Association

Sandy511 Wrote: Sep 08, 2013 1:57 PM
There is a huge difference. I presume you are a white man? It is very easy to overlook the day-to-day experiences of minorities if you have never been a minority. Ask a woman why they might prefer to work out in an all-female gym, or why a gay man would feel more comfortable living in a predominantly gay community. Discrimination does not always work both ways: you may have not had an easier time in life by being a white man, but your life sure was never made any harder by it. You should consider yourself lucky.
In response to:

Gay Weddings and Free Association

Sandy511 Wrote: Sep 08, 2013 1:53 PM
I suppose the 1964 footage of crowds of white men pushing and shoving black schoolchildren was also only because of "government force"? You are so skeptical of government that you no longer see that elected officials are indeed a reflection of public interest, good or bad. Those laws were created because the citizens WANTED those laws in place.
In response to:

Gay Weddings and Free Association

Sandy511 Wrote: Sep 08, 2013 1:51 PM
Miss Black America began in 1968 when the Miss America pageant did not admit black women. It has continued to exist since the Miss America pageant began admitting black women in the 1970s. The first black woman to win Miss America (Vanessa Williams), however, did not do so until 1984. That is why we have Miss Black America.
In response to:

Gay Weddings and Free Association

Sandy511 Wrote: Sep 08, 2013 12:43 PM
What purpose would a Caucasian Caucus serve?
In response to:

Gay Weddings and Free Association

Sandy511 Wrote: Sep 08, 2013 12:35 PM
Because they are not equally weighted forms of discrimination. White people have always been in the majority, and as such, have enjoyed cultural privileges that black people have not: they have never felt ashamed or out of place for being white, and have not been denied opportunities in the way that black people have. White people do not have to change the way they speak to "fit in" with the rest of the world, and they feel at home in business and professional settings because they are and have always been the cultural norm. Black student unions (and black organizations generally) are places for people of color to feel welcome, to "fit in" where they might normally feel like outsiders, and to be able to express opinions they might not feel comfortable sharing in front of a group of white students. There is such a thing as a "White Student Union." It's called the Student Union.
In response to:

Gay Weddings and Free Association

Sandy511 Wrote: Sep 08, 2013 12:01 PM
jrpublic, I am speaking in absolute terms, just as everyone else here is speaking about an absolute "freedom of association." I am saying that freedoms can never be justified when they infringe upon the liberty of others. Very little in life is absolute. As individuals we have the right to bear arms to ensure our personal safety, but we do not have the right to own chemical or nuclear weapons because that would threaten the safety of others. We have the right to free speech, but we do not have the right to slander or harass others, because that infringes upon their rights. I am not saying that the scenario I described in my previous post would necessarily happen, but merely that it could. The law should protect individuals from something like that ever happening.
In response to:

Gay Weddings and Free Association

Sandy511 Wrote: Sep 08, 2013 11:49 AM
"The market" would have "solved" the problem of blacks in Birmingham 1964 with violence and several more generations of segregation and abuse. It appears you like to think of freedom as an absolute, but it is not always so cut and dry. One person's freedom can be another person's prison.
In response to:

Gay Weddings and Free Association

Sandy511 Wrote: Sep 08, 2013 11:44 AM
Paolo, I ask you the same question I asked below. At what point does our freedom of association infringe on the freedoms of others? Many businesses deliver crucial services to the public. What if a phone or cable TV company denied access to a gay person or a Muslim (or a Christian, for that matter)? What if grocery stores wouldn't serve them? What if they couldn't get a package delivered, or their car repaired? At what point does discrimination and bigotry so affect the daily lives of minority citizens that the freedom of association the majority enjoys becomes actually antithetical to the freedom of others?
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