I think you misread JackK's post: "I voted ***against*** Clinton and Obama."

Born with that orientation. Were you something other than straight before your first sexual experience?

Valid points, AliveInHim, though there are always exceptions and some men can be more nurturing than some women. Politically correct or not, I agree that kids are better off if the have both male and female parental role models, assuming they're actually good parents. It's gotten a little lost in all the replies, but what originally started this thread was DCM's statement "there is great value in even a childless (real) marriage that no other arrangement can give." A little off topic from the article, but that's where my request for examples came from.

I agree, same sex couples will have a different dynamic than straight couples. But a marriage between a liberal and a conservative, an atheist and a christian, or an introvert and an extrovert will all have very different dynamics than couples with the same mindset/personality. This may just be one of those "agree to disagree" situations.

I'm not denying there are fundimental biological differences that do drive personality traits. What I am saying is that isn't the only thing that matters and that thereare many, many people that don't have the personality that you'd expect purely from a biological stand point. Women are not always better suited as the primary caregiver, men aren't always the breadwinner, etc. I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just having trouble seeing things from your perspective. Perhaps it's my experience working in a male dominated field - I have much more in common personality/behavior wise with the guys than I do with most women I know. Are there any examples you could give where biology is always going to be the defining factor?

I agree with your statement, except I see it more that individuals naturally have different gifts and abilities. Just a a woman isn't interchangable with a man, an individual woman isn't interchangable with another woman. Gender cetainly affects our personalities, but isn't the definitive factor. For a relationship to work, it takes the right mix. And yes, there is an appallingly low level of commitmnent in many gay relationship, but it's a huge issue in the straight community as well. Any relationship, be it romantic, familial, or platonic friendship, takes discipline, patience and hard work - traits not particularly valued by society at the moment.

Out of curiousity, what "great values" do you see in "childless (real) marriage that no other arrangement can give?" Personally, I fail to see how the genders of any committed couple make a difference.

My parents always told me to find something that provides income that you don't hate. You don't have to love it - it's called "work" for a reason. Then you can use the money you earn to pursue other interests. That's why this software engineer can afford paint and canvas, while her art school trained friend can not.

It seems everyone refers to universities as "bastions of Leftism" or "Communist indoctronation camps." Guess I had a different experience - my professors taught engineering. I've no idea about the personal politics of most of them, and the few that I do (some conservative, others liberal) I learned about only from conversations OUTSIDE the classroom.

Thanks Ken, I'll check them out.