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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 5:18 PM
Originally, all Christians, Hellenists and Jewish, believed that Jesus rose spiritually: his spirit left his body and went to Hades or to Heaven. The story of Jesus evolved and by the time the Mark wrote his gospel (70 CE) the spiritual resurrection of Jesus was turned into a physical resurrection. “ From The Origins of Christianity and the Bible, by Andrew D. Benson pg 354.
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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 5:17 PM
To Matthew, these resurrections were so mundane that he did not bother to explain who those resurrected people were and what happened after they went to Jerusalem and appeared to people. He did not explain how those people lived the rest of their lives with those who knew that they had died and had returned from the dead. Many people around the Roman empire believed that Nero returned from the dead. Tacitus wrote, "Achaia and Asia were alarmed by a false report of Nero's return .. ." Dio Chrysostom wrote, "Even now his subjects wish he {Nero} were alive, and most men believe that he is." The phrase "wish he were alive" reveals the reason some of them saw him alive. According to the gospel writers, Jesus was a victim of an unjust execution. His spirit rose from the grave and roamed around Jerusalem for forty days. People believed that the spirits of victims of unjust killings rise from their graves and roam on earth to haunt their perpetrators or others. Josephus wrote " ... the ghosts of Alexander and Aristobulus go around all the palace {of Herod the Great} .. ." " ... he {Catullus} was terribly disturbed, and continually cried out that he saw the ghosts of those whom he had slain standing before him." Homer wrote that the spirit of the brutally slain Patroclus rose from the dead and appeared to Achilles: "Then there came to him {to Achilles} the spirit of unlucky Patroclus, in all things like his very self, in stature and fair eyes and in voice {Patroclus' spiritual body} ... and he stood above Achilles' head and spoke to him .. ." So the claim that Jesus' spirit rose from the grave and roamed around Jerusalem was not in any way out of the ordinary. And the claim that Jesus' spirit rose and went to Hades or to Heaven was even more ordinary. As we examined earlier, Paul believed that Jesus rose spiritually. " ... the last Adam {Iesus} became a life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45 NRSV) Paul also wrote, "Now the Lord [Iesus] is the Spirit...the Lord, {who is) the Spirit.." (2 Corinthians 3:17-18 NRSV) Peter, too, believed that Jesus rose as a spirit: "For Christ...was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit .. ." (1 Peter 3:18 NRSV) The writer of Hebrews wrote, "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers ... " (Hebrews 5:7-10 NRSV) As mentioned earlier, the expression "in the days of his flesh" implies that after "the days of his flesh" Jesus became a spirit.
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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 5:16 PM
cont'd Many people around the eastern Mediterranean believed that Asdepius had returned from the dead. Origen wrote, "It is said of Asclepius that a great multitude of men, both Greeks and barbarians, confess that they have often seen and still do see not just a phantom, but Asclepius {in the flesh) himself healing men and doing good and predicting the future." They believed that Asclepius raised many people from the dead. Ovid wrote, " ... and the dead to rise out of their graves." Origen wrote, "Several people are recorded to have returned even from their tombs, not only the same day, but even the day after." Matthew (the editor of Matthew) wrote that many dead people rose out of their graves in Jerusalem the moment Jesus died: "The tombs broke open and ... many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." (Matthew 27:52-53 Nl V)
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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 5:15 PM
“During the Hellenistic era the belief that people rise from the dead was widespread. For hundreds of years before Jesus, people saw apparitions of deceased persons and sometimes they claimed to have seen them in the flesh. Plato wrote that Er, the son of Armenius, after he had been killed in a battle and while his body lied on the funeral pyre ready to be burned, he rose from the dead. Plato believed that people saw the resurrected Er and talked to him. In another instance, some Athenians saw the mythical Attic hero Theseus, who returned from the dead. Plutarch wrote, " ... the Athenians were moved to honor Theseus as a demigod, especially by the fact that many of those who fought at Marathon against the Medes thought they saw an apparition of Theseus in arms rushing on in front of them against the Barbarians."
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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 1:38 AM
Well, if I wrote a book about all the wonderful things the spaghetti monster has done and promises for those who believe in him, would you listen then?
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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 1:35 AM
What about all the atheists who have not converted on their death beds? Don't they count in your little calculation?
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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 1:30 AM
That's nonsense. I am not an immaterial entity. I am an organic process within my brain. When my brain stops working, I don't exist anymore. The reason most of us believe in an afterlife is that it is impossible for anyone to imagine themselves dead--non-existent. Because, to do so, you must imagine yourself observing yourself being dead. These are two completely contradictory ideas. You must imagine yourself both alive and dead simultaneously. Can't be done.
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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 1:22 AM
Doc, I've never met an agnostic who didn't live like an atheist. Come out of the closet.
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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 1:21 AM
That's a bigoted view. It could also be said that believing you are favored by a supreme being over other human beings is prideful and arrogant.
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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 1:17 AM
I'm a conservative atheist. I agree with these comments completely.
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The Lawyer on Trial for Christ

johninohio Wrote: Sep 20, 2014 1:14 AM
But that's circular reasoning. The word 'creation' implies a creator. It gurantees the conclusion. If you want to get to 'creator', you must first allow the possibility that the universe just happened, then prove that possibility is highly improbable, if not impossible. The problem is, that the concept of creation (changing substances from one form to another) is derived from the universe itself, but it's not a slam dunk that the concept is so general that it can be applied to the universe itself. We know nothing, and can know nothing of what 'came before'. Assume, yes. Pretend, yes. Imagine, yes. Know? No.
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