In response to:

Lincoln Re-Examined

jcrescenzi Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 2:17 PM
I've yet to see the movie and hope to soon. It is time however, for Lincoln and the Civil War to be brought out into the open. Not from the common story of a war to end Slavery, but from a point of view of all the facts. Tariffs, the concept that our Union of Sovereign States was no longer to exist, the abuse of Constitutional separation of Powers and all the hairy ugliness that caused over 600,000 American casualties. "Are we better off today because of Abraham Lincoln?" is a question that must be brought to the public with all the facts. History is written by those who win the war, was never a truer dictum than with this war
Marek3 Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 2:21 PM
It is a great thought Jcrescenzi. Unfortunately people are far too invested in the rhetoric of the Civil War then its reality. People on our side ( Conservative) refuse to say that Lincoln could have done bad, while people on the other side, refuse to listen to anything but word "Slavery" which fits so well within their agenda.

Tariffs, and Government rights were far more important than any other issue in Civil War. Which, if someone just took a second to think, would make sense. Think, how many would fight for or against a Slave? Especially in the bloody, disgusting trenches of the Civil War.
Dreadnaught011 Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 2:31 PM


Oh my; Yes.

They were bloody, they were disgusting. And Johnny Rebs had rights!

Only the Union side was evil. Make another movie! Fire away, plantation owners!

Haaahaa!

rickmcq Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 2:38 PM
Not much of a contribution when com pared to many of your other posts, Dreadnaught011. The subject of secession is actually very interesting, as is the subject of States Rights. Wishing to discuss either or both of them does not make one an apologist for either side. It would be a shame to have a conversation about this shut down because some are too sensitive or ill-informed to address these topics.
Marek3 Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 2:40 PM
Dreadnaught011 doesn't have an argument Rick, so don't bother. He simply emotes. Which is another way of saying "Troll", and its always bad to feed the Trolls :)
rickmcq Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 2:44 PM
It is just tough for me to understand why some believe that discussing States Rights means one supports slavery, any more than a discussion of the Potsdam Declaration of Unconditional Surrender means that one is a proponent of Nazism. Dreadnaught011 will usually offer a reasonable comment, unlike what I am reading from Milt37 here, but this may be a 'hot button' for him...
Marek3 Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 2:58 PM
Because people love to see things in black and white, and not understand that in almost all things there are shades of Gray.

It is far easier to paint you as a racist, than to touch your ideology, or your believes.

The reality was that both South and Union were wrong, although South had a better claim, their support for Slavery did in FACT ruined their argument. You can not speak of freedom while holding people slaves. You can not speak of Liberty while denying it. Most importantly you can not have liberty while Government ensures Slavery, which means by definition Government must be large and powerful. (Slavery requires Government, a private person may hold another illegally, but never legally without Government monopoly of force).
Dreadnaught011 Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 3:15 PM


Don't harp on states rights.

The subject is this movie. An honest movie about Abraham Lincoln; which ticks off a lot of dopes.

Right up front Fields wants to know who can shake off the "video games" mentality of simple children. Because it requires a grown up and clear understanding of American history. Today all we see in public are teeny numbskulls who can't say who the hell was Lyndon Johnson or Jimmy Carter. They never heard of the Cold War. Wuzzat?

Ask if they know Pearl Jam. OH!!! Yeah! We love that group!

Marek3 Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 3:26 PM
Hey Dread.. that almost made sense.

I agree vast majority of people are completely or mostly ignorant of our history, or of history in general... while knowing everything about some American Idol or what Actor is married to whom.

That doesn't change the fact that there is a huge difference between impassioned learning of history and one with ideological biased. History, happened, for good for bad, evil or not, it happened. The best we can do is learn from it, but not ignore any wrinkle no matter how inconvenient it may be.
Dreadnaught011 Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 4:05 PM


Actually, no. Not such a button at all.

I just saw the film. It blew me away; and here we are; umpteen cave-dwellers dumping on Lincoln! It's too unbelievable to keep quiet about; what madmen some Americans are.

Dreadnaught011 Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 4:10 PM

Come on; I haven't blacked out the human weaknesses of Lincoln. His methods were not only dominant. They were a sign of those times. He isn't a saint.

But we see obvious chumps here making a demon out of him.

Just don't go see the movie! I found it to be excellent.

rickmcq Wrote: Nov 30, 2012 4:36 PM
I hope that it is excellent, as I intend to see it, but a movie is not history, and Lincoln did what he did for the reasons that he did - just as Jefferson Davis did what he did for the reasons he did. Neither was a saint, and neither was a demon. One can discuss Lincoln, and even mention his political dealings, without being a "cave dweller".
Every schoolchild with enough smarts and curiosity to get beyond the latest video game of "Call of Duty" ought to go see "Lincoln," the movie, and check out the references and his own attention span. It requires patience, but it shows through dramatic action how a self-taught rustic from the deep backwoods had the emotional and intellectual discipline to overcome poverty and grow up to be a president to rank among the greatest.

This is not about the American Dream or a Horatio Alger story. (Does anybody remember him?) Nor is it mythmaking. It's made of sterner stuff than that....