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In response to:

Defining Life

J415 Wrote: Jul 23, 2014 7:53 PM
USS Ford FFG 54 90-94 I agree it is what God says, but we are all guilty of sin. I try my best to follow Gods word, but I always fail. I strive to be better everyday. I am guilty of making some very bad choices in my life. I think about them everyday. That is what drives me to be better and make better choices. I think it is a far better punishment than anything society could ever do to me. Catholic guilt is a very powerful thing.
In response to:

Defining Life

J415 Wrote: Jul 23, 2014 7:40 PM
Anon, trust me when I say I know your arguments and they all carry weight. I or you don't have a right to take away a woman's free choice. You like examples so here is one. A 17 year old woman is pregnant. She won't tell her parents, she is scared to have the baby because she knows she shouldn't have had sex. The babies father is pressuring her to have an abortion. She knows it is wrong to have an abortion, but she is scared about anybody finding out that 1 she is pregnant and even more scared that anybody would find out that she had and abortion. So she convinces herself she has only one choice, to cause an abortion that nobody will find out about. She does all the physical type of activity that will cause an "miscarriage" by falling down the stairs by "accident", or any other type of action that will cause a "miscarriage". She was successful. Her parents didn't find out, her secret is safe between her and the boyfriend. There is nothing you, I or the law can do about it. But she is still guilty of terminating the life in her consciously. She will feel guilty the rest of her life and she will ultimately answer to God. She may never get retribution in this life other than living with the guilt, but she will face justice when she meets St.Pete. Nothing you or I did could have stopped this. She freely chose the wrong path. But on this subject, I guess, we should agree to disagree. Like I said, you and I most likely agree on the vast majority of issues.
In response to:

Defining Life

J415 Wrote: Jul 23, 2014 7:12 PM
Darby, First Happy Birthday. You sir seem like a very good example of what America is about and what the Founding Fathers envisioned. The Lord has blessed you with what seems like a very nice family, sorry about your wife, I am sure she is in heaven. I believe you and I and even Anominus probably agree on 99% of issues. My Catholic mother and my jack Mormon father, both agree with you and Anominus on the abortion issue. We still debate it now and then. Even though I am very much more conservative on other issues then they are. I guess the disagreement is this, I would refuse to my last breath anybody ever forcing me to do something I choose to do because I feel it is in my or my families best interest, even if they don’t agree. Since I feel this way, I refuse to be hypocritical and believe I can force somebody else to do the right thing, just because I say. Yes Anominus, I do know my view is in opposition of the Catholic Church, which my sister and mother both give me grief over. But as my sister and I had a debate the other night, she is now against capital punishment because she feels she is being hypocritical since she is pro-life. I do support the death penalty; I think incarceration for life is a far worse punishment then being put to death.
In response to:

Defining Life

J415 Wrote: Jul 23, 2014 6:43 PM
Darby, to answer your question you posted below. I am 45 born and bred in Northern Arizona (small town). Raised and practicing Catholic, Ex-navy and now a Technical consultant for a computer company. I can't stand or trust big government or big business. I don't believe anybody who says they have my best interests in mind, if I only do X. I think a farmer should be the next President and his success would be determined on how many laws he gets rid of instead of creating. I believe in God, Family, and then Country. I believe family and the church can help people better and more efficiently than any type of government program. I think man-made global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on man. I think the left since the 1930's has always had as their goal a Communist USA and have done almost irreversible damage since Obama was elected. I was a big supporter and donated to Rick Santorum in the last election cycle and still think he is the best choice the GOP has so far.
In response to:

Defining Life

J415 Wrote: Jul 23, 2014 6:28 PM
Darby, listen for a second. I think you have me totally confused with somebody else. I agree with the intent of your arguments. But your missing or misusing the principles of individual freedom, choice and free will. I must be a flaming crazy progressive leftist if I agree that abortion is murder, that I would do anything in my power, with the exception of force, to change the mind of a woman who is thinking about getting an abortion. Just because I believe the individual is sovereign and can't be forced to do the right and just action. I am thinking you just might have more progressive tendencies than I.
In response to:

Defining Life

J415 Wrote: Jul 23, 2014 6:17 PM
I would always proactive to save life. Are you seriously stating that these far left progressives wouldn't go to the point of forcing abortions? Margaret Sanger! The whole point is that once you write down and place into law the ability to take away individual freedom and choice it is a slippery slope and the far left progressives will always misuse it to do the most evil actions possible. Are you willing to kidnap and incarcerate a woman to stop them from having an abortion? I totally understand all your arguments, but they can all be used by the left to undermine the principles of individual freedom and choice. Remember we are all responsible for our choices and actions, both good and bad.
In response to:

Defining Life

J415 Wrote: Jul 23, 2014 6:06 PM
Tuffone, Anominus, You are pointing other cultural subject also. I will give you an example. Historically in the Navajo culture there was no reference to theft or thievery. If a member of your tribe saw a possession that was not being used by somebody, they could pick it up and take it, and keep until somebody else just came by and picked it up and took it. Plus there is also the harm principle: The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right...The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns him, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign
In response to:

Defining Life

J415 Wrote: Jul 23, 2014 5:54 PM
Thank you to all who have responded. I feel I must clarify a few things. (1) I believe life begins at conception. I believe the creation of human life and bringing that life into the world is a miracle. (2) I believe that God gave humanity the gift of free will, which we can use for good or evil. That the gift of free will is a test given to use by God. (3) The elimination by force of the use of free will is not Gods plan. (4) That is the parents and the culture of the community's responsibility to encourage an environment where the idea of getting an abortion would be unthinkable. So I choose to believe that forcing my free will to override another's free will amounts to slavery. Which I think is the worse possible condition for any human.
In response to:

Defining Life

J415 Wrote: Jul 23, 2014 5:41 PM
Darby, I am not even remotely close to being anything like a progressive leftist. I believe that we all have the right to choose to do right, just like we have a choice to do wrong. I choose to do everything I can possibly do to inform, sway, and convince a woman that abortion is the worse possible choice they can make in life. That they really are murdering a miracle that only she can produce. I can't force her to the right path, I can only offer to lead her to the path, she must choose to take it. Forcing others behavior by eliminating choice really is the progressive type of path.
In response to:

Defining Life

J415 Wrote: Jul 23, 2014 5:35 PM
Would you rather be dead or a slave? Not trying to be divisive on this honestly. But I rather be dead than made a slave. I know of (3) woman in my life who have had abortions, one was forced by her father. She and other other two wish the choice was different. I am against abortion and will do everything in my power to convince a person it is the worse choice available. But I can't force my choice to override another's individuals choice. If they choose to damn themselves, we can't change their minds, only offer what help we possibly can.
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