In response to:

The GOP's Amnesty Caucus Raises the White Flag

goatlockerloungelizard Wrote: Feb 01, 2013 12:20 PM
Per usual, the libertarian approach would solve the problems on all sides: 1) Substantial reductions in the welfare state would send all the leeches back where they came from, leaving only truly hard-working immigrants in place. 2) Elimination of the FICA/Medicare mandate would likewise eliminate the institutional advantages illegals have re. wage demands in building/service trades (self-employed U.S. citizens currently have a 15% disadvantage) Our government forces some to labor for the benefit of others. Eliminate that injustice, and you mitigate the vast majority of hostility towards immigrants.
Beethovens10th Wrote: Feb 01, 2013 12:29 PM
That's not a libertarian approach, but a conservative one.

And your unconscious omission of "illegal" when referring to "immigrants" in your first post is telling beyond words.
Fuzzy2 Wrote: Feb 01, 2013 12:31 PM
At the very least, I think this is common ground between conservative and libertarian. I think they are much more similar than adversarial.

Beethovens10th Wrote: Feb 01, 2013 12:44 PM
No, they are not similar in the least.

A libertarian is for unfettered "liberty" at the expense of regional public morals, which is not liberty at all. In nearly every respect, this is more the radical liberals' position. Any restrictions a libertarian would agree to would be based on utilitarian concerns.

Conservatives are for reasonable restrictions to some behaviors, BASED UPON TRADITIONAL MORES ROOTED IN THE MORAL TRADITIONS OF CHRISTIANITY AND ITS PRECURSOR, JUDAISM, as well as common sense and science. Without morality, WHICH IS OBJECTIVELY DETERMINED, there can be no real liberty.

The suggestion to eliminate the incentives to prevent criminal invaders from coming or staying completely misses the PRINCIPLE of the RULE OF LAW.
Fuzzy2 Wrote: Feb 01, 2013 1:21 PM
Beethovens10th - Then why, pray tell, do I find the posts from Libertarians to be very reasonable?

I think it is because non-libertarians lump them all together as extremist. In reality, I am willing to bet there is a range of moderate to extremist, just like any other party.
Beethovens10th Wrote: Feb 01, 2013 6:36 PM
True, but then they are not true "libertarians" and violate their own theology. I'll admit, it's a nice alternative to the disappointing "conservatism" that's been sold to us in the past few election cycles, but at least recognize real libertarianism for what it is. It has elements of conservatism, such as freedom, but completely repudiates non-negotiables.

I have yet to meet a true libertarian who doesn't want recreational drug use made legal, who wants the eternal definition of marriage between a man and woman maintained, who doesn't want unfettered pornography sold, and even displayed in public. Of all the popular political ideologies out there, I find this one to be the most monolithic.
goatlockerloungelizard Wrote: Feb 01, 2013 9:30 PM
Libertarians adhere to the Golden Rule. We respect the property rights, and civil rights (including the right to privacy) of our fellow citizens, and demand the same in return. That's hardly a "radical" idea.

You think it's okay to use government force to bend others to your views on morality. For example, you probably think it's wrong for people to get inebriated on pot, or cocaine, or whatever (everything but alcohol, presumably), therefore you support the atrocities committed in the war on drugs, against citizens who've done no harm to anyone else. That's not liberty, my friend. That's oppression.

On Monday, Sens. John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Jeff Flake and Marco Rubio emerged with an offer of a Republican surrender to Barack Obama.

We will accept amnesty for 11 million illegal aliens, said the four, but you must get serious about securing the border against yet another invasion. Only after an independent commission agrees the border has been secured will the 11 million be given green cards and put on a path to citizenship.

The next day in Las Vegas, Obama, reveling in victory, instructed the four waving their white flags that the defeated do not dictate terms.

Get cracking on...