In response to:

Keeping Business Honest

ftorres Wrote: May 23, 2012 10:32 AM
Re: Mr. Hillinger, First, I believe you made a mistake when phrasing the scenario - it would be business B that would go out of business if one goes by your premise. In reality, it would be Business A that would go out of business after a few settlements in court with the private owners downriver. The problem is that you;re totally ignorant of your own history: Businesses WERE taken to court and, regularly, lost to private owners because of the courts. Then, suddenly, Progressive judicial activism at the end of the 19th Century changed the paradigm from protection of private property to "helping the country achieve Progress" and businesses were given a free ride.
inkling_revival Wrote: May 23, 2012 11:46 AM
M. Hillinger (aka Quiet Reason) Wrote: May 23, 2012 11:36 AM
So, if this is such an easy legal issue, then why was it not pursued? Why did not towns, prior to the Clean Water Act, just sue the businesses that were polluting their drinking water? Why did the Cayuhoga, Charles, Connecticut, and others become open sewers if there was such an obvious legal solution?
inkling_revival Wrote: May 23, 2012 11:30 AM
"What grounds would the private owners have? I have already stated that there are no regulations so what the business is doing is not illegal. "

Dear God, you really are completely ignorant of the law, aren't you?

The entire legal field of TORTS (look it up) addresses the question of how damages are recovered when there is not a criminal law involved.

You are asking questions that any 1st-year law student could answer, about problems that have been solved literally for centuries. GET. A. F**KING. EDUCATION. before bothering us further with your drivel.
M. Hillinger (aka Quiet Reason) Wrote: May 23, 2012 11:14 AM
You are correct about the 100 million bond. But that was for sewer upgrades and not sufficient to clean up the heavy metals and other toxins from the industrial waste. That cleanup had to wait until the clean water act gave govt the power to restrict those effluents.

As to history, the Cuyahoga had burned at least nine times since the late 1860s. A 1912 fire had killed five dock workers when the blaze spread to the shipyards and a 1952 fire caused an estimated $1.5 million in damage.

So much for laissez faire.
Daily Steve Wrote: May 23, 2012 10:53 AM
the single largest state or local environmental bond item in history up until that point, voter approved. It was in fact, a little over half the size of the federally approved cleanup funds for the entire country! So, prior to the fire even happening, environmentalists were already celebrating a victory.
Daily Steve Wrote: May 23, 2012 10:53 AM
Happy to oblige: In 1965, a local car dealership owner decided to do something about it, and kicked off the "Save Lake Erie" campaign, garnering over a million signatures for petitions. The movement was entirely Cleveland based - almost all the signatures collected from people from Sandusky to Painesville and south towards Akron, and largely focused on cleaning the Cuyahoga. Around this time major municipal figures started making a stink about it, like when the Cleveland city fire chief publicly declared the river a "fire hazard" and it became a talking point for then candidate for mayor Carl Stokes.

In 1968, a municipal bond item to clean up the river was put up for a referendum and passed. The bond item was for $100 million dollars, the
M. Hillinger (aka Quiet Reason) Wrote: May 23, 2012 10:43 AM
"In reality, it would be Business A that would go out of business after a few settlements in court with the private owners downriver."

What grounds would the private owners have? I have already stated that there are no regulations so what the business is doing is not illegal. Furthermore, if many businesses are dumping effluent into the river, how could you possibly affix blame to any one.

As to my ignorance of history, please illuminate me as to how people where able to clean up rivers (The Cuyahoga comes to mind) prior to the clean water act.
Instinctively, we look for people's motives. We need to know whom we can trust and whom we can't. We're especially skeptical of business because we know business wants our money.

It took me too long to understand that business's desire for profit is a good thing. To get our money, businesses -- if they can't look to the government for favors -- need to give us what we want. Then they must make continuous improvements and do it better than the competition does.

That competition is enough to protect consumers. But that's not intuitive. It's intuitive to assume that competition isn't...

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