In response to:

Beck, Marriage and The State of The Union

CLF Wrote: Dec 09, 2012 9:41 AM
But it didn't stop there. The LDS Church had almost all property taken away from them, including their temples. That was the breaking point. They had withstood men and women (yes women) being hunted down by federal authorities and thrown into prison. They had withstood the breakup of families and children of plural wives being officially declared illegitimate. They had withstood their voting rights being taken away from them for even believing in plural marriage. But when their temples were threatened to not only be confiscated but closed down -- thereby not giving them a place to practice their sacred ceremonies and saving ordinances, that's when they gave in. So, was that really a great American example? I don't think so. I don't agree w
David3036 Wrote: Dec 10, 2012 7:46 PM
In 1578, 13 same-gender couples were united in a high Mass at St. John Lateran in Rome -- traditionally the Pope's parish church. Vatican clergy participated, and the couples took communion, were blessed by nuptial scripture, and ate and slept together afterward. And Marjorie Topley wrote about lesbian marriages in Guangdong, China, that existed well into the early 20th century.

The American Anthropological Association wrote in 2004: ”The results of more than a century of anthropological research on households, kinship relationships and families, across cultures and through time, provide no support whatsoever for the view that either civilization or viable social orders depend upon marriage as an exclusively heterosexual institution."
David3036 Wrote: Dec 10, 2012 7:36 PM
Byzantine Emperor Basil I (867-886), founder of the Macedonian dynasty, was actually married to two men, and both weddings took place in churches with priests presiding. Another gay union that was celebrated in ancient art and literature involved two Roman soldiers who became Christian martyrs and were subsequently canonized -- St. Sergius and St. Bacchus. They were described as lovers in Greek writings, and their relationship was considered a marriage.

Historian Allan Tulchin researched a same-sex union called an "affrèrement” in medieval France -- a legal contract that created a civil union between two men. Homosexual “marriages” also took place in Ireland in the late 12th to early 13th centuries.
David3036 Wrote: Dec 10, 2012 7:30 PM
People have been unjustly punished for all kinds of things throughout history. My point was NOT that homosexuality was accepted in Europe, but that the notion that marriage has been unchanged fro thousands of years is patently false. Even Mormons make such statements, as if they have forgotten their own history of polygamy.

In his book Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe, John Boswell offers evidence that the early Christian church had liturgies to unite same-sex couples. He found such evidence in archives in the Vatican, St. Petersburg, Paris, Istanbul and the Holy Land. The ceremonies he describes had all the earmarks of a wedding: a gathering in a church, a blessing by a priest at an alter and a banquet to celebrate afterward.
CLF Wrote: Dec 10, 2012 7:56 AM
Thank you for the little National Geographic tour.

For the handful of same-sex marriages that might have taken place in Medieval Europe (and I would love to see legitimate documentation), I can show you many more cases of punishment (usually severe punishment up to and including death) for homosexual activity in medieval Europe.
David3036 Wrote: Dec 09, 2012 8:37 PM
So, if the LDS Church was dragged kicking and screaming into this "one man, one woman" view of marriage, why are they so adamant about it today? They act is if that has been their stance all along, and they point out that it's been that way for thousands of years -- which is a lie in itself. Marriage “norms” have included arranged marriages, “purchased” wives, child marriages, slave marriages, forced marriages of widows to their brothers-in law -- and, yes, same-sex marriages in medieval Europe, Japan and China, and among native tribes in Africa and the Americas. Both Chinese and Sudanese cultures allow for marrying dead people. The Nga people of Tibet,have no marriage at all. Children are raised with no regard for who the fathers are.
CLF Wrote: Dec 09, 2012 9:43 AM
So, was that really a great American example? I don't think so. I don't agree with gay marriage nor do I want legalized gay marriage.

But I definitely do not want to happen to gays what happened to Mormons. Their constitutional rights were trampled upon by our wonderful federal government.

My buddy, Glenn Beck, has made a great contribution to the TEA party movement and to a renewal of popular interest in our Founding Fathers and their ideals. For all that he deserves praise.

But, I believe, he is making a serious error in abandoning the civil right of marriage. The Republican Party was founded in opposition to two historic wrongs. The party’s first platform in 1856 denounced “slavery and polygamy—the twin relics of barbarism.” Slavery was finally put down with a terrible toll—630,000 Americans dead in the Civil War. The new movie, Lincoln, tells the dramatic story of the...

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