In response to:

Strangulation by Union

Bayou Charley Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 7:09 AM
Actually too many of you buy the idea that in the beginning unions were good because you buy the history written by biased historians as it is today. Good research with a perspective prior to the Industrial Revolution would show they were as damaging then as now. Many of the horror stories were told because it sold. To look at history, begin before the event. How were lives of the common man before the IR and how were they after? Much better you will find if you do your homework.
dmarn Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 11:53 AM
Coming from one living in Louisiana,one of America's impoverished states,your comments show what's wrong with many American citizens.Especially in the south where poverty runs rampant and a good education is lacking.
hiimterry Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 11:58 AM
Are you talking to me? Can you be more specific?

I'm a born and bred Georgian, FWIW. From Southern roots going back before the Revolution.
dmarn Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 12:07 PM
The people of Georgia too are a good example just as Bayou Charley from Louisiana is!
You People ALWAYS vote against your own best interests!
hiimterry Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 1:40 PM
So, you don't care to elaborate? You'd rather just throw out meaningless comments?
hiimterry Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 9:31 AM
My understanding of the genesis of unions is based on documentaries I have seen about West Virginia coal miners and their efforts to unionize at the beginning of the 20th century. My understanding is that miners were paid in company script (think "16 Tons") and worked 12+ hour days with little protection. When miners attempted to unionize for better working conditions and wages in actual legal tender the mine owners hired private armies to shoot down the organizers. Those shootings are historical fact.

I agree that unions do far more harm than good now, but I have to disagree that unions were not good in the beginning. Those coal miner's unions fit the American ideal of solutions through citizens, not gov't.
OldMexicanblog Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 10:24 AM
Re: hiimterry,
-- My understanding of the genesis of unions is based on documentaries I have seen about West Virginia coal miners and their efforts to unionize at the beginning of the 20th century. --

And then you happily extrapolated that incident towards your understanding of corporation and worker relations in general, or am I wrong???
hiimterry Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 11:16 AM
You're wrong. I extrapolated from that incident that there was a time when certain industries in certain areas had a need for unions. WV coal mining being chief among them. The miners couldn't just quit the mine because they lived in houses owned by the mines and shopped at mine operated stores using mine printed script. They had to organize, it was the only way. So, to say that unions were always horrible and unnecessary is wrong.

Of course, today's unions are a bastardization of that original purpose. The union bosses have replaced the mine owners.
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 11:34 AM
Actually, those "hisitorical facts" aren't. In fact, in the West Virginia coal miners strikes the violence was begun BY THE STRIKERS. Pro-union gunmen (supported by the local sherriff who was sympathetic to their cause) surrounded deterctives as they were trying to board a train and LEAVE the area. While four townspeople were killed, seven detectives lay dead.

The fairy tale that the clash between organized labor and management was EVER one of employer oppression of innocent or justified workers is pure bovine fecal matter.
hiimterry Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 11:39 AM
Is there a book or something that you would like to recommend? The only version of that story I have ever heard has the mine owners being the agressors. I have only ever heard of the politicians being in cahoots with the mine owners, too. If there is an alternate version that has the miners being the agressors I would love to read it. I'm all about knowing the truth.
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Sep 26, 2012 2:28 PM
Even Wikipedia gets it right for crying out loud! If that's the only version you've ever heard, then you've clearly made no effort whatsoever to look.
hiimterry Wrote: Sep 27, 2012 12:08 PM
Yes, stupid me. There are no other things in life to occupy my mind. I should be focused like a laser on the history of unionizing in the Appalachians. WTF was wrong with me? I mean, I have my nerve trying to engage in a little discussion based on the information I have gleaned from the little time I have devoted to the subject. Yes, this should have been chief among my concerns and I should have already researched the topic before trying to ask questions and engage in a discussion with strangers on the internet.

You're what's wrong with discourse, jerk.

The Chicago teachers strike is over, but the public didn't win. Schools will still transfer bad teachers to other schools because it's nearly impossible to fire them. When bad teachers go from school to school, principals call it "the dance of the lemons." It would be funny if those teachers didn't slowly wreck children's lives.

The basic issue is: Who decides how to manage a workplace? Unions say it's good that they protect American workers from arbitrary dismissal and make sure everyone is treated equally.

But it's not good.

Rules that "protect" government workers from arbitrary dismissal and require everyone...