In response to:

Some People Just Deserve "Free" Healthcare

bachcole Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 11:01 AM
Some people just deserve to be stomped on by upper management in authoritarian companies. Oh, I forgot, every company except co-ops are authoritarian. The upper of echelon of every company garners more money than they deserve because they make the rules and if you don't like it, you can go to another authoritarian structure and get screwed by their upper echelon. Unless of course you get extremely lucky and gain employment at a co-op like Mondragon. Go ahead and call me names, but you know that it is the truth. In Japan, which does not have a union problem, the CEOs make 10 times more than the lowest worker. In the USA, 160 times more. Or has that number gotten worse lately.
Colonialgirl Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 1:22 PM
Sure nothing like a communist business. Do they REALLY pay the Janitor the same as the most skilled worker? Does the account get the same pay rate as the toilet cleaner? I suspect that there are LOTS of details being left out of that fairy tale.
bachcole Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 3:23 PM
Of course. Communism sucks. Socialism is not much better. I want government out of almost everything. Voluntary co-ops are the solution. Voluntary means the government stays out and conventional businesses do not use government to stifle the co-ops. No government support for ANY business or co-op.
DoctorRoy Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 3:31 PM
Sounds like Anarcho-Syndicalism to me.
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 4:57 PM
Again, as co-ops have NEVER worked in all of human history without governmental support...
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 1:10 PM
As usual, when bachcole's socialist fantasies are challenged with facts, he falls back on his staple:

a yellow puddle and a vapor trail.
bachcole Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 3:20 PM
That means absolutely nothing. I would be careful about accusing other people of drivel. Your post above was drivel and ad hominen, and said exactly nothing.
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 5:12 PM
And yet you keep making bald assertions that you can't defend and then disappear into the ether. As is also typical of trolls like yourself, having failed spectacularly to undermine anything I said, you go to the post that notes nothing more than your regularly scheduled vanishing act and pretend that it is my main point (when ALL of your possts have proven to be "drivel").
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 12:19 PM
This is in direct contrast to conditions in Japan (whose interventionist policies have desteroyed their economy and why its been a shambles for more than a decade and a half now) or Spain where the only thing keeping (otherwise failed) cooperatives afloat are MASSIVE governmental subsidies and favorable regulatory treatment without which they could not possibly compete.

It isn;t a question of calling you names. If you have so unbelievably FAILED to do even the most basic research into the (universally failed) socialist alternatives you keep espousing that's no one's fault but your own.

"Upper management" has the sheer gall to actually CREATE JOBS giving people an opportunity to improve their lot in life (ooo, that rat...
bachcole Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 3:19 PM
I am not espousing socialist alternatives. I am merely happy and guilt free with getting my massive government tax "refund", and I hope that we keep that program. I am also happy that we have a bus system in this town. I had occasion to take the bus recently when my car broke down. Almost everyone on that bus was mentally retarded. So, in your enthusiasm for individualism and free markets, do you want to force all of those mentally retarded people to walk. The temperature at the time was like 23 degrees F. I wonder how many would die if they had to walk, just so that you can be an ideologue. Or perhaps you are happy that the weak die in your social darwinistic mind.
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 4:57 PM
Co-ops, by their very nature, are socialist alternatives, if firo no other reasion than that they have never survived absent the aid of the state. You shouldn't feel guilty about getting a "refund"; you should be outraged that they took resources from you in the first place (it is obviously not a "program"). That the private sector does a better job of providing mass transit has been repeatedly proven (of course they cannot compete with government subsidy), so your point about bus service is ridiculous particularly given the idiotic contrary-to-reality Social Darwinism reference.
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 12:14 PM
Actually, irt is clear that your "knowledge" of companies does not progress beyond that of the average diaper wearer. There is no such thing as an "authoritarian" company unless of course you are "authoritarian" because you don't let the town drunk use YOUR car whenever he likes. The company OWNER (that is - the person or persons who OWN THE PROPERTY) have found that they can make more money by CREATING JOBS (at the point where those jobs pay for themselves) and must provide a MARKET WAGE to employ people. It's a process that ... WORKS!
bachcole Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 3:13 PM
All businesses are authoritarian. If you don't believe me, go tell you boss that you want a raise or else you are going to fire him. Be surprised if he doesn't call the police on you.
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 4:53 PM
Saying that "all businesses are authoritarian" doesn;t make it any less monumentally stupid and contrary to reality. Businesses are all about individuals acting in concert to acheive a particular goal. If the business does not pay an adequate compensation, there is always another business (the competition) who will happily get a leg up on that original business. At the same time, BECAUSE the market determines wages, the business cannot pay more just because an employee demands it. And, I HAVE demanded a raise or I would fire him (go work for someone else); it happens all the time ... unlike what you have suggested.
True Conservative! Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 12:01 PM
How much more does the average Hollywood moron make than the lowest worker? How much more does AlBore make than the lowest worker? John Kerry? Athletes?

It's all driven by the market, by the way ... you know, the thing that delivers inexpensive products to your local store!
Vic156 Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 12:18 PM
You can't teach the truth to Commies. This fool sounds like my great uncle (I have no clue what he did for a living) or my mother's brother. He finally died of anarchism.... I believe in the rule of law. I don't believe in total gov't. Unfortunately that is what we are being offered both by Republicrats and Demoncrats.
James____Tx Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 11:19 AM
Companies are controlled by the great leveler known as Free Market Capitalism. The cases where this influenced is lost is where government and management meet. So stop having monocular vision and look at what is really going on. It's two tiered, Government and Corporation Joining to in-rich both the Pol, and the CEO. Every time this happens the free market (or semi free considering what we have had over the last decades) becomes corrupted.
Vic156 Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 12:01 PM
In a free society you are always free to change employers. You are also free to start your own business if you don't like the way your employer treats you.
bachcole Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 12:09 PM
Vic156, if all employers do the same thing, which they do, then that option is not freedom As far as starting your own business, just how many businesses do you think that the economy can tolerate. Your only proposal left for freedom is that everyone have their own business. Just how reasonable is that?

We are a free society only outside of employment. If you work for someone else, then 40 hours per week you are a wage slave. And if you work near the bottom, then you are oppressed. If you want true freedom in employment, the only recourse is co-ops like Mondragon. Right now, you are free to TRY to go from one fascist organization to another fascist organization.
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 12:22 PM
Yes, your a-historical nonsense "ain't so"". The Marxian notion of "oppression" or "exploitation" that you keep putting forth was debunked before you were born by people much smarter than you (though my beaagle would fit that bill). The long-proved reality (come out from under your rock) is that there is a COMPETITIVE MARKET for wages (the notion of monopsony has likewise been disproved). In a competitive market, the "fair" wage is the point where workers and employers voluntarily consent to an employment agreement. That you FEEL that you (or anyone else) "deserves" more has nothing to do with reality.
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 12:25 PM
If all uneducated socialists do the same thing (which they do) and claim that they understand value better than the marketplace and that (despite the overwhelming and essentially unrefuted evidence to the contrary) believe that employers are colluding to "keep the workin' man down", it doesn't make the claims any less ludicrous.

Only a blithering idiot uses the term "wage slave" because it merely demonstrates a profound ignorance of economics, history, political science and ... basic reality. Mere use of the term prevents anyone with sense from taking the user seriously.
Colonialgirl Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 1:23 PM
More trollish nonsense spewed from the leftist troll.
Colonialgirl Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 1:24 PM
MOre fairy tales and nonsense from the left. Nice move drag up a "victim"; I see you learned that lesson well from the leftists in the democrat party.
Colonialgirl Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 1:25 PM
More trollish nonsense from a floor sweeper with no intelligence or knowledge of business or the economy.
DoctorRoy Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 1:35 PM
Stick to your guns Bachhole. You are on the right track. You have changed though, lol. Unless you are channeling Loyal Democrat I don't remember you thinking like that. You aren't pulling our leg are you?
jimmyjames4 Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 2:35 PM
When I entered the workforce, in the seventies, I don't recall what minimum wage was, however, my first job paid $1.35 an hour, after a few weeks because I got proficient at my job I was given a .20 raise. Soon after, I found a job with another company in a different industry that paid a $3.50 an hour starting wage, and after I became more proficient and productive at my job I was making $5.00 an hour. Point is, opportunity is what you make of it, but, there may be limits in some opportunities. America is still the land of opportunity, even for those people ensnared by government welfare programs, or in dead end jobs. Oppression only happens if you let it.
bachcole Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 3:10 PM
Show me the debunking. If you can't debunk it with your own words and without trying to be insulting, then your post is a waste of bandwidth.

My wife is a terrific worker and that place could not function without her. It is normal and natural that those who control the finances will make sure that more money flows into their pockets than into the pockets of those who don't control the finances. It is simple human nature.

I am not a Marxist. I understand that a free marketplace is essential to create and grade value. But each individual business is a chunk of exploitation (thanks for that word), if all businesses have the same attitude towards workers.

In fact I voted from Romney and against ObaMao.
FletchforFreedom Wrote: Feb 17, 2013 4:50 PM
Try reading ANY economics book (or an actual history book). Marx's theory of opprerssion is based on the labor theory of value which has been long refuted (value is subjective and determined in the marketplace, NOT at the time of production). Whether your wife is a terrific worker in YOUR opinion (or, for that matter, who you voted for) is irrelevant. The ONLY thing relevant in the determination of labor value is what it can command in the competitive marketplace that is the norm for labor.

If you read ANY economics text, you will learn that, because those who seek labor must compete for it like ANY other resource, that there IS no "control" of the finances any more than you "control" the price of the groceries you buy (maybe, you...

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