In response to:

What's Good for the Noose is Good for the Pander

Anominus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 4:03 PM
Sorry, but women can't have children without men involved, so men deserve just as much say in the issue of abortion. There should be no exception to a ban on abortion because there is no justifying an abortion. There is no crime that, in the course of justice, entitles the victim to injure or harm another innocent person, so abortion in the case of rape is against justice. It goes against the Hippocratic Oath to intentionally end innocent one life, even if it is to save another, so abortion even to protect the life of the mother is against medicine. The left will always engage in hystrionics to protect the "sacrament" of abortion, something which many women have been brainwashed by into believing to be a "reproductive right".
Anominus Wrote: Nov 19, 2012 1:29 PM
If there is any assumption here, particularly one which lacks consistent logic, it is that human DNA is not enough to prove that an organism is a human.

"DNA is not the sole standard used for what makes something human. It's a part of it. But not the ONLY part."

And yet, you refuse to actually say what the other "part" of the standard for identifying what a human is. Once again, what other creature possesses human DNA other than a member of the human species?

"So why would DNA be the only part when as I pointed out with twins that at conception, it isn't distinct to an individual human."

As I have already said, not all the DNA possessed by a set of twins is identical.
HeraldOfGalactus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 6:09 PM
"That's what genetics has defined it to be," still isn't a valid reason. It comes off as an assumption and if there's no consistent logic behind that assumption, then it's not a reasonable conclusion. You're using a standard of "human" and "alive" that is based on DNA and as I've pointed out, DNA is not the sole standard used for what makes something human. It's a part of it. But not the ONLY part. So why would DNA be the only part when as I pointed out with twins that at conception, it isn't distinct to an individual human.
Anominus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 6:00 PM
It's not an "exception," it's proof that the DNA is still different, even between "identical twins."

"So if life beings at conception and conception only happens once, then why is it logical to accept that two human lives begin under this one standard for life?"

I never made the argument that it wasn't possible for conception to form more than 1 life.
Anominus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 5:56 PM
Because that is what genetics has defined it to be. If something has human DNA, that thing is human. It is observably different from that of any other animal.

As I have told you, if something is both human and alive, it must be a human being / person. If it is not, then the concept that "all humans are created equal" is false, in which case, slavery is justified due to the implied inequality of man.
HeraldOfGalactus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 5:51 PM
So now you're making an exception with mitochondrial DNA? That is logically inconsistent because you keep saying that DNA makes us human. Even if fingerprints are different, the DNA is the same in identical twins. At conception, that DNA was the same for both individuals. So if life beings at conception and conception only happens once, then why is it logical to accept that two human lives begin under this one standard for life?
HeraldOfGalactus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 5:48 PM
You did not answer my question. You only repeated your previous statement. The logical shortcomings are the same. Why is the blueprint for this structure that you admit is a blueprint considered human? I'm not talking about what makes us human, but what constitutes a living human being. Science can only explain what happens at conception. My question is how do we determine when that chemical process becomes a human being?
Anominus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 5:45 PM
Identical twins have the same nucleic DNA, but different mitochondrial DNA, so they are not exactly the same. Even their fingerprints are different. Also, twins, barring any errors, develop as two, separate and complete organisms, rather than one organism.
Anominus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 5:38 PM
DNA is the information, the blueprint for the structure, development and function of our cells. It is what determines that we are of the human species. EVERYTHING is made up of "chains of molecules," so what's your point?

When we die, we are no longer considered a living organism, and therefore, a dead human is dissimilar to a fertilized egg at the point of conception because it is a living organism according to the biological definition of life. If an organism possesses both human DNA and the characteristics of life, chances are that organism is a human being with all the rights inherent. No other argument can be made that has any facts to stand on.
HeraldOfGalactus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 5:32 PM
There's also the issue of identical twins. Two sets of twins each have the same DNA. Yet we consider them two individuals. By your logic, their DNA makes them only one individual. If both twins die and their bodies are mixed up, there's no way to positively identify them on a strictly genetic basis. So by your logic, are twins the same human being? If not, how do you rationalize this?
HeraldOfGalactus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 5:29 PM
Lover of Mark, making ad hominum attacks don't prove anyone's point.
HeraldOfGalactus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 5:29 PM
That's not a valid response, answering a question with a question. You're the one that said DNA is what makes us human. I'm asking what the logic is in that. But DNA is only information. It doesn't make something alive because DNA itself isn't alive. It's a chain of molecules. It only acts as a catalyst for the processes of life. It doesn't "control" anything. It is a bio-chemical catalyst. Even when we "die," our DNA in our cells is still present. Just because you cannot surmise a different standard for what makes us human doesn't mean that DNA has to be it.
Lover of Mark's Momma Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 4:43 PM
Anonymous just owned Harold. He thinks arguments have testicles. What a pussified excuse for a man.
Anominus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 4:40 PM
Correct, because personhood is a social construct without any factual basis. Therefore, the personhood argument is insufficient in determining when a human possesses the inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Tell me, if our DNA does not make us human (which it absolutely does, as DNA controls the structure, development and function of our cells) then what does?

All bacteria possesses DNA. Even some viruses, which are not classified as "life," possess DNA.
HeraldOfGalactus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 4:32 PM
Science doesn't prove what constitutes personhood. It only proves that at conception, two gammet cells merge to form a new combination of DNA. How does that combination constitute a human being? DNA is not what makes us human. DNA isn't even required for something to be considered alive. Bacteria doesn't have DNA, but it's still considered a living thing. There are a lot of forces at work in life. Why is DNA an appropriate standard?
Anominus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 4:24 PM
If men can be forced to pay the child support, hospital bills, etc., for 18+ years, then women can be forced to bear a child for 9 months.

All living humans are persons, or slavery is perfectly justified. At the point of conception, science proves that a new human life, as defined by biology, is created, complete with its own unique DNA.
HeraldOfGalactus Wrote: Nov 15, 2012 4:18 PM
You forget that while men are required to participate in procreation, men will never have to actually carry a child to term like a woman. As such, I give more weight to their positions because they're in a better position to understand the ramifications.

You also claim that abortion harms another person, but how do you determine that a fetus is a person? This is the position that deserves focus and the rape exception only distracts from it.

Recently, Ann Coulter wrote a controversial column suggesting that numerous Republican losses in the 2012 election cycle could be tied to the GOP stance on abortion. After lamenting the problem, she suggested a solution: the GOP should officially abandon its opposition to the so-called rape exception to a ban on abortion.

Ann's position on this matter is wrong for three reasons. First, it is unprincipled. Second, it will not be received with the popular support she envisions. Third, it is not the best political response to the problem. After elaborating on each problem associated with Ann's position, I propose an...

Tuesday, May 21 | 11:12 AM ET
Tuesday, May 21 | 11:12 AM ET
Tuesday, May 21 | 11:12 AM ET
Tuesday, May 21 | 11:12 AM ET