In response to:

The Obama Inaugural Address

anderson659 Wrote: Jan 29, 2013 3:46 PM
Obama and his legion of drooling sycophants (The MSM) have decided anything that reflects poorly on the goals of the left will not be published. The country no matter how anyone slices and dices it is in the throes of recession and there is no job growth. Thanks to Obamacare taxes have increased and the FEd policies of quantitative easing have made sure we all are paying inflationary prices in a no inflationary economy. Stand by for more misery, courtesy of the academic left and its intellectual dissonance.
Jimmy21 Wrote: Jan 29, 2013 5:12 PM
what a lot of people don't recognize is that driving inflation is another tax.
Bill110 Wrote: Jan 29, 2013 5:49 PM
It's worse than a tax, it's theft. At least with a tax you hope there is a benefit. Inflation destroys/consumes your savings, pension, life insurance and social security,
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 29, 2013 6:06 PM
Taxation is theft as well. Because the thief tells you about how he will spend your money on your behalf doesn't change the fact that it was taken under threat of punishment.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 29, 2013 7:35 PM
Why should I leave? Are you claiming that my home and my earnings do not belong to me, but are granted me by the benevolent State? The notion that one is "free" to leave in order to abstain from being robbed is founded on the false notion that the State has some rightful claim to all the land of the nation. Where did this right come from? If it exists, then every individual is a renter of the State. You seem to agree with this concept in your "our infrastructure" and "how we run things here" model of collectivism.

Because you can't "understand" the concept does not make it untrue. And the notion of "voluntary taxes" is an absurdity.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 29, 2013 9:20 PM
Then where does the "right" of taxation derive, Sky? From the collective? So if enough people agree to enslave the minority, then this becomes a "right"? Until you can justify how the State has a "right" to confiscate the property of individuals, then I stand by my assertion. The State has no more "right" to take property than the mob has the "right" to "protection" money.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 29, 2013 9:56 PM
You still can't produce a compelling justification for this so-called "right" to tax. It cannot derive from our individual rights as we have no right to take from others against their will. The right to form a government does not create new "rights" that infringe on the rights inherent in the individual. It would be absurd to claim that man has the right to form a government in order to deprive him of his rights.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 12:09 AM
So says the person who cant support his argument. Uh huh.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 7:50 AM
And yet you cant provide any serious justification by which it has a right to take the property of others. Implying that taxation is an effective means to fund its existence does not change the fact that taxation is theft. Because you realize you cant defend your position, you are forced to end the discussion. Understandable.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 11:55 AM
My "worldview" is irrelevant. A logically reasoned argument is true regardless of who makes it. You don't have to know my reasoning to hold and defend your own propositions. From our discussion, you imply that taxation is not theft because a lot of people accept it and don't believe it is theft. My position is that regardless of what they believe, the taking of other's property, against their will, is theft. The fact that taxation makes government's job at fund raising easier is not a compelling argument.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 1:25 PM
Your continued distractions of where I live and what I do are telling as they have absolutely nothing to do with the topic. And your claim that I have some sort of "hostility " toward others is laughable. It is you that believe that the property of others must be taken against their will. Until you can give a compelling justification why forced confiscation of ones property becomes a moral good when done by the State, then I stand by my statement.
goldilocks Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 2:34 PM
Syk, I don't understand you any more!

What has happened to you?
Wandered Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 2:50 PM
If, in the acquisition of your property, you used any common infrastructure such as public roads, a legal system to enforce contracts, currency, air protected against unfettered pollution, and so on, taxation is how you pay the freight. Taking advantage of common infrastructure necessary to acquire property and then refusing to help pay for it - that is theft.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 5:55 PM
"If, in the acquisition of your property, you used any common infrastructure such as public roads, a legal system to enforce contracts, currency, air protected against unfettered pollution, and so on, taxation is how you pay the freight. Taking advantage of common infrastructure necessary to acquire property and then refusing to help pay for it - that is theft".

Wandered, your argument doesn't address the issue as you never showed where the State was justified to tax in the first place. Because a thief plans to use his takings for the St. Jude's Hospital or to fund a school does not alter the fact that his means was through theft.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 6:02 PM
Sykocon, HOW is my definition not equivalent to taxation? Your argument of "voluntary taxation" was as absurd as taxation is not voluntary and never addresses the justification for the taxation in the first place. Neither does the argument that the State is "elected" by the masses. Many have this notion that when a monarch taxes, this is tyranny, but when our neighbors vote to confiscate our property, well that is just swell. Majorities have historically voted for all manners of atrocities. Because the majority says "yay" doesn't mean it is moral.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 6:08 PM
"By living here using our infrastructure and institutions, participating in a political process you are not giving your consent to abide by are laws? Is citizenship free?"

This is classic collectivist mentality. The perception that the system we live in is a totally planned design orchestrated by the State, instead of the reality that the majority of it is the result of voluntary collaboration between individuals. Because the State takes from us to give us "benefits" doesn't justify the taking to begin with and doesn't prove that such benefits wouldn't arise from private market processes.
Wandered Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 6:24 PM
"Wandered, your argument doesn't address the issue as you never showed where the State was justified to tax in the first place."

The infrastructure for you to acquire property predated your acquisition of it. How are you justified in using it without paying?
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 6:46 PM
You still fail the argument, but the answer is that I do pay, as I am forced to pay under penalty of incarceration and further property theft. Now that you now that part, you still need to demonstrate how such taking is not theft. Until then, no one has provided any compelling reason why taxation is not theft.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 8:52 PM
"Forget about "taking" your property and income. It never was 100% yours free of any encumbrance or obligation in the first place."

Really? And what percentage was never truly mine and by what reasoning?
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 30, 2013 9:01 PM
"You are making an accusation of wrong doing."

Which I have repeatedly stated. Taking property involuntarily is theft.

"That makes you the prosecution and therefore the burden of proof is on you. But you keep asking us to disprove your assertion- an assertion which has no practical or theoretical proofbutis simply how you feel about the matter"

This is rich. I have stated why and do so above but you ignore this and claim I give no reasoning. The just powers of government are derived from the natural rights of men. They cannot grant it rights they themselves don't have. Men cannot steal from others and they cannot create systems to do it for them. The State is a gang of thieves writ large.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 31, 2013 12:42 AM
I tire of the constant dodges and dishonest claims of "telling how I feel". No one has offered any compelling argument that taxation is not theft, even though the issue was originally addressed as though the reasoning was self evident. Instead we get shocked inquiries over how the State can function if it doesn't take or distractions of all the things the State does with the money. Or the all to common "then leave" rhetoric. I stand by my position.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 31, 2013 12:55 AM
"Semantics again, feeling it is theft does not make so."

And feeling it is not theft does not make it so. Pretty easy to play your game.

"Would it be possible that the natural rights of man include the right to assess members of the community for the cost they impose on the community so as to prevent one member from infringing on another and using, damaging or impairing his property without compensation. or are you going to argue with that?"

No, there is no such right to deprive others of their property in order to protect their property as it is logically contradictory. If men will not freely pay for such services then such services are not highly valued.
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 31, 2013 8:34 AM
Hahahahaha!!!! "Nature produces governments"!!! And governments "evolve" through "natural selection". That is rich. Your revisionism on the origin of States is absurd. But I guess that's just you emoting and telling us your "feelings".
nawlins72 Wrote: Jan 31, 2013 8:38 AM
"And I have been playing with you all along, just for sport."

Of course you have, champ. And I'm sure you were about to spring upon us the definitive justification for the "right" to tax and how taxation is not theft, but you were just waiting for the right moment, huh? Yeah, uh huh.
Wandered Wrote: Jan 31, 2013 9:24 AM
The mere fact that you used any common infrastructure to acquire property is the reason taxation is not theft. But you yearn to be one of those "takers" the GOP is always on about. The fact that society doesn't allow you to mooch is not a legitimate claim to victimhood.
Wandered Wrote: Jan 31, 2013 11:37 AM
Honestly, I'd much rather have them around than authoritarian social conservatives.
To understand leftism, the most dynamic religion of the last hundred years, you have to understand how the left thinks. The 2013 inaugural address of President Barack Obama provides one such opportunity.

--"What makes us exceptional -- what makes us American -- is our allegiance to an idea articulated in a declaration made more than two centuries ago: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.'"

What American does not resonate to a president reaffirming...