In response to:

The Malicious Mangling of the Virgin Mary

AmyDB Wrote: Nov 16, 2012 12:15 PM
eddie again said.... people who believe Jesus established a Church without leadership are not to be believed or followed. _________________ Jesus was to be the head of his Church even as the husband is the head of the wife. This is how the bible it's self describes the Church & it's relationship with Jesus. Doesn't say anything there about the pope, the cardinals, or the Roman catholic church. Also any one who says that a mortal should be the head of what is to be an immortal being of Faith & the Spirit should be questioned for his or her foundations.
McD2004 Wrote: Nov 16, 2012 12:40 PM
It also doesn't say anything about "The Nicean Creed" but it DOES say that His church would be built upon a foundation of apostles and prophets, with Christ being the Chief Cornerstone. That it would have apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists and so forth. That it should have a foundation of apostles and prophets seems to be an inconvenient truth to many Christians, especially with the glaring omission of 12 apostles that He Himself had.
eddie again Wrote: Nov 16, 2012 12:39 PM
why should current followers of Jesus believe that the hierchical structure of the first christian communities did not survive the lifetime of the apostles?

why should current followers of Jesus believe that the apostles, who were especially chosen by Jesus, did not understand that as Jesus chose them to succeed Him as the earthly leader of the christian community so too they were to emulate Jesus and choose others to succeed them as earthly leaders of the christian community after their deaths?

why should current christians believe that the structure Jesus set up ended with His death or the death of His chosen twelve?

eddie again Wrote: Nov 16, 2012 12:29 PM
Christ's Church is an earthly organization of those who believe in Jesus and Hist teachings.

Jesus chose twelve apostles to receive in-depth training in His teachings and the meanings of those teachings.

Jesus only chose twelve.

Why believe that those twelve did not have authority and understanding that exceeded the authority and understanding of other followers of Jesus?

the bible tells us that the christian community accorded the twelve special status and authority.

the bible tells us that Jesus taught the apostles with information that was not provided to others who believed in Him?

why should we believe that the current followers of Jesus have no human beings to lead them?
AmyDB Wrote: Nov 16, 2012 12:40 PM
Did Jesus sert any of the 12 over the others?
No he did not.
They were to act as moved by the Holy Spirit now as led by a mortal man.

If you actually study history you'd find that some of the Pagan / Heathen religions were set up _EXACTLY_ as the Roman catholic church is organized. From the ranking of the priests, to the sisterhood of the nuns, to the private confessions, to many of the colors to represent the holidays.
Hella's Gates if you read the writings of the Roman church's "fathers" you find that they ADVOCATED using the trappings of the Pagan / Heathen faiths to make conversions easier.
AmyDB Wrote: Nov 16, 2012 12:42 PM
Damn...sorry...error...

"They were to act as moved by the Holy Spirit now as led by a mortal man."
should be
"They were to act as moved by the Holy Spirit _not_ as led by a mortal man."
mlund Wrote: Nov 16, 2012 12:43 PM
More to the point - without those Apostles and their successors, guided by the Holy Spirit, there would be no Gospel Canon. The Apostolic Tradition predates the Bible by hundreds of years and is the foundation upon which the Bible was compiled.
eddie again Wrote: Nov 16, 2012 1:18 PM
where in the bible does it say that Jesus did not set the 12 over the others?

on what basis do you assert that Jesus did NOT set the 12 over others?

all available evidence, at least until the 16th century indicates that Jesus did set the 12 over others.

maybe you have some evidence to support your contention that christianity did not have a hierchical structure from its very beginnings.

why would you ignore the fact that Jesus gave special teachings and instructions to the 12? why ignore the fact that the 12 were hand-selected by Jesus?

are you suggesting that His selection of the 12 for specific and exclusive instruction had no specific meaning in tems of understanding and authority?
A Christian can be crushed gazing at the picture of Mary standing at the foot of the cross, watching her beloved son suffocate and die. But in that vision, she stands there for hours, patiently enduring her suffering. For two millennia, she has been a role model for Christians, a woman who practiced obedience in the most difficult of human circumstances, with fervent hope for what this sacrifice will offer all mankind as it struggles with sin.

This is why it seems so hard to reflect that vision of patience when black-hearted "artists" practice character assassination on the Blessed Virgin...