Missing the Obvious

I'm proud to be one of the "found" sheep. Thank you.

It is very difficult for me to remain polite while someone so painfully stupid keeps calling me a liar...

"I'm Catholic, these motives and emotions you are ascribing to me are only in your own mind."

I am Catholic. I don't practice often, but I was baptized and confirmed into Catholicism. I have no motive other than fniding and speaking the truth.

"Most people didn't believe Jesus was the son of God when he was alive. How could God possibly expect people to believe 2000 years later when the only proof is hearsay and a 2000 year old trail of corruption and butchery in the religion?"

Can't see anything wrong or untrue about that comment. For every Mother Theresa there are 3 Cardinal Wolsey's in...

It's a strange sort of thinking to believe that narcissism and drunken sodomy and AIDS and childhood trauma and pride are not sinful.

It's a strange sort of thinking that states that homosexuals are "victims."

It's a strange sort of thinking that states that sodomy is "normal."

starts out by refuting a post and states: "I'm Catholic, these motives and emotions you are ascribing to me are only in your own mind."

Then goes on to say:

"Most people didn't believe Jesus was the son of God when he was alive. How could God possibly expect people to believe 2000 years later when the only proof is hearsay and a 2000 year old trail of corruption and butchery in the religion?"

Then on to:

"My wife is Catholic and I converted for the marriage. I went through the RCIA program.

I was never baptized and figured it would be better to be a bad Catholic than nothing."

Kimbery is a fraud. Period.

If you went through the RCIA program you would HAVE to be baptized. That is the main part of the program. If you've already been baptized, then you go through the program for Confirmation. Or you go through the program for both baptism and confirmation. But you don't get out of the program without being baptized--so please quit lying.

Lol... yes I am a tool of satan.... you got me!


I didn't say I was a devout Catholic. My father isn't religious and my mother was a non-practicing Baptist. I probably went to church 10 times during my childhood.

My wife is Catholic and I converted for the marriage. I went through the RCIA program.

I was never baptized and figured it would be better to be a bad Catholic than nothing.

"Even if we had the "autographs" of the Gospels preserved perfectly in a museum. We'd still have no idea if the authors were telling the truth."

Excellent! You are absolutely correct!

That is the same for any book - even today's newspapers and talking heads on TV. That is why we are told to test all things and examine the evidence.

"I envy people who can put aside all reason and just believe. Unfortunately, I am not one of them."

Please don't envy them. Consider instead those who have NOT put aside reason, yet believe.

You might find interesting Kierkegaard's paradox and description of the abyss that is not subject to reason. He says that even interviewing the apostles won't help. It is in ...

I'm telling you--Kimbery is not doing anything but trying to start fires. She claims she's Catholic--then she claims that she is a non believer. She is a fire starter. Nothing more. You are needed on other threads to evangelize and spread the vast knowledge you have attained to spread the good news.....I wonder if Kimbery is paid to keep intelligent and holy people "on the line" so they don't have more time to do God's work. Satan uses many techniques--just saying, this could be one of them....

Your play on words is very childish indeed. So is this in which you state: I envy people who can put aside all reason and just believe. Unfortunately, I am not one of them.


Hmmmm......I thought you said you were Catholic?
Liar.

I don't disagree that it is possible.

What I do disgree with is the notion that our eternal soul is dependent on our belief in a document which does not exist.

I don't care that Homer's works are copies. Nothing depends on it. But when the most important thing in a person's existence is at stake I'd like to have more evidence than a few scrolls which were copied centuries after the events they describe.

I admit I have learned alot reading about these things over the last few days. However, my original problem remains.

Even if we had the "autographs" of the Gospels preserved perfectly in a museum. We'd still have no idea if the authors were telling the truth.

The vast majority of the...

"How anyone can be "assured" when the source documents do not exist is beyond me."

Just, I accept that it is beyond you, and many things are beyond me, but that doesn't change the fact that it is possible. I could give you many references, but you can find them on line. If you will spend just a little time learning how textual criticism is done, you will see how it is possible. Try reading the original article that I posted for a start. The same methods are used to determine the best texts of Shakespeare's plays - there is a science to it.

Here are a few:

Erikson, A Beginner's Guide to NT Exegesis
Fee, NT Exegesis
Green, Hearing the NT
Soulen & Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism
Black, Linguistics...

"I worked in special ed."

Technically the students aren't "workers".

Ask a grown up to look up the word Fiction for you.

Maybe then you'll see the difference between crucifixion and crucifiction...

You never told me you changed your name to Randy.....

Also, I wouldn't waste too much more time on someone who claims to know so much about Christ but can't even spell, "crucifixion."

That is a total disconnect with being a real Christian. Sometimes you just can't "beat" any sense into people....they need to fall on their faces many times if necessary. I should know--I worked in special ed.

"Sir William M. Ramsay goes so far as to claim that "antecedent probability founded on the general character of personal and contemporary Greek of Greek-Asiatic society" would indicate "that the first Christian account of the circumstances connected with the death of Jesus must be presumed to have been written in the year when Jesus died.""

Key word "PRESUMED", that means he doesn't know, nor can he.

"The mass of briefer records and Logia which the habits and culture of that age would produce must have been welded together within 10 or 20 years by the external necessities."

What necessities? And so much for your "oral tradition" is this is the case...

"Now however, the science of textual criticism...

"Sir William M. Ramsay goes so far as to claim that "antecedent probability founded on the general character of personal and contemporary Greek of Greek-Asiatic society" would indicate "that the first Christian account of the circumstances connected with the death of Jesus must be presumed to have been written in the year when Jesus died.""

"The mass of briefer records and Logia which the habits and culture of that age would produce must have been welded together within 10 or 20 years by the external necessities."

There goes your 30 years!

"Now however, the science of textual criticism has so far advanced and the textual problems of the Greek Testament have been so well traversed that one may read the Christian...

Not one of Paul's original epistles/"autographs" are still in existence.

"The autographs of the New Testament writers have long been lost... In the first place papyrus was probably the material employed by all the New Testament writers, even the original Gospel of Matthew and the general Epistle of James, the only books written within Palestine, not being excepted, for the reason that they were not originally written with a view to their liturgical use, in which case vellum might possibly have been employed. Again the evidence of the writings themselves witnesses to the various literary processes followed during the first century. Dictation was largely followed by Paul, the names of at least four of his secretaries,...

Kimbery, you are possibly the only person in the world who thinks that Paul would write in Hebrew or Aramaic to a Greek-speaking group in a city 40 miles west of Athens! You say:

"The earliest evidence of Paul's letters comes from the P46 papyrus. It is in Greek and it was written in the 3rd century AD. Almost two centuries after Paul's death. This source document is a translation from earlier documents. Paul would have written in Aramaic or Hebrew, not Greek."

Still stuck on stupid? NOBODY thinks that the autograph of this uncontested epistle of Paul to a Greek-speaking Christian community IN GREECE (it's still there!) is a translation from another language except possibly those who are candidates for a mental...

The earliest evidence of Paul's letters comes from the P46 papyrus. It is in Greek and it was written in the 3rd century AD. Almost two centuries after Paul's death.

This source document is a translation from earlier documents. Paul would have written in Aramaic or Hebrew, not Greek.

It is hysterical that you can shriek about ignorance when you so clearly have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

"The decayed papyrus scrolls we get Paul's epistles from are almost 2 centuries AFTER Christ lived and they are translations..."

You are stupid - they are copies, not translations, and I pointed you to a website saying that. Also, they are mostly parchment, not papyrus.

"...the ORIGINALS DO NOT EXIST!"

You are stupid. I told you that already and pointed you to a website that says that.

"And again... they were not written in Greek."

You are stupid. They WERE written in Greek. NOBODY doubts that!

"The originals do not exist."

Been there, done that - are you on drugs? BTW, you mean autographs.

"You cannot look at the translation 200 years removed and declare it to be...

holding her breath to get what she wants. Grow up.

RD: "More obfuscation. Nobody doubts 1 Corinthians (except you?)."
K: None of the FAITHFUL doubt it.

Even the faithless don't. How stupid are you? What scholarly credentials do you have to assert that Paul didn't write 1 Corinthians, or that neither he nor that church community existed?

K: And again, it is irrelevant as what Paul did or didn't write does nothing to validate the miracles. "

You are stupid. Your claim was that no miracles were mentioned, not whether they were true or not. Keep holding your breath.

"It seems that you don't realize the letters weren't written in Greek either."

You are stupid. I've already said that I read them in...

"I did NOT claim that the manuscripts were true, only consistent - that's for you to decide. I wish you well in your search."

And again... they were not written in Greek. The originals do not exist. You cannot look at the translation 200 years removed and declare it to be consistent. You have no idea and cannot know if it is consistent.

But, logic doesn't seem to be able to penetrate your condescending cro-magnon skull.

"See - you can't even copy a name correctly!"

really? am i arguing with a 12 year old now?

"False. 39 of the books are from the OT."

And none of them do anything to prove the superatural either.

"More obfuscation. Nobody doubts 1 Corinthians (except you?)."

None of the FAITHFUL doubt it. And again, it is irrelevant as what Paul did or didn't write does nothing to validate the miracles. All it does is prove that he or whoever wrote them wanted people to believe as well.

"More stupid argumentation. I think that most are aware that all current copies in English are translations, and that we do not have the original autographs. Did you know that?"

It seems that you don't realize...

"You consider the Bible to be fact and not open to debate."

I'm glad that you reminded that previous post are here for all to see. That's why I posted the above summary.

Now you make another absurd claim - the post history shows that I claimed that the manuscripts agree in the essentials and the original can be known to quite good accuracy. That IS open to debate, and the debate has gone on for hundreds of years, and it takes a new turn when new manuscripts are discovered. You might want to read some good articles on textual criticism, such as this one for a start . (I make to claim for the definitiveness of it - it's just one of the first that I...