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Tuesday, November 21, 2006
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why I smoke (cigars)
by Dennis Prager
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There are few personal confessions more likely to alienate many Americans than to admit to smoking. Singles ads are filled with people who will never even go on a first date with someone who smokes. I strongly suspect that more women would date a millionaire who earned his money disreputably than a millionaire who smoked.

Drinkers are far more highly regarded than smokers, as are playboys, gamblers, lawyers, politicians and almost anyone else except child molesters.

So I have no doubt that some readers who until now have held me in esteem will lose respect for me when they learn that not only do I smoke cigars and a pipe, but I love doing so, have no interest in stopping and have been happy to pass this pleasure on to my older son. In fact, we regularly have some of our best talks while we enjoy our cigars.

For the record, I never smoke cigarettes, which I happen to dislike the smell of, and which I acknowledge to be dangerous. But what I write here largely applies to cigarette smokers as well. In fact, I find anti-smoking zealots far more dangerous to society than cigarette smokers, and would much sooner date a cigarette smoker than one of the zealots.

Having said that, however, it does need to be pointed out that there is little in common between cigar (or pipe) smoking and cigarette smoking. Most important, we don't inhale. This is not meant in the way former President Bill Clinton meant it when he said he "never inhaled." The purpose and joy of cigar and pipe smoking are to enjoy the taste of tobacco in one's mouth. The purpose and joy of cigarette smoking are only vaguely related to the taste of tobacco.

And that leads to two other great differences between cigarette smoking and cigar (and pipe) smoking: First, there is no issue of addiction regarding cigars or pipes. I have been smoking both since I was 15 years old, and could stop tomorrow if I wanted to. Indeed, as a Jew who observes the Sabbath prohibition on kindling fire, I do not smoke for a day every week, and it is effortless. Likewise, I am frequently on the road lecturing, and often miss days at a time with absolutely no discernible effect. Second, because one does not inhale when smoking a cigar or pipe, the likelihood of lung cancer is minimal.

Yes, I am warned by doctors that I am more liable to contract mouth or lip cancer, but while physicians may see such diseases, in 40 years of smoking I have never met or heard of one person with either cancer.

Indeed, I am quite convinced that my one-a-day cigar or pipe may well have had a positive impact on my health given how much relaxation it induces. Stress kills far more people than cigars or pipes do.

It is a sign of the times that the latest James Bond film has prohibited 007 from smoking a cigar. One of the most benign practices a person can engage in was banned, but our macho hero can be shown drinking alcohol and bedding women (and without any mention of condoms!), not to mention killing people and engaging in behaviors infinitely more dangerous than cigar smoking.

We live in the Age of Stupidity. This new age has been induced by widespread college education and widespread secularism -- Psalms is entirely accurate: "Wisdom begins with fear of the Lord" -- which explains, for example, why only well-educated secularists came to believe that there were no innate nonphysical differences between men and women.

Nearly 100 years ago, before widespread college education and before widespread secularism, when America tried to prohibit a vice, it chose alcohol, not tobacco. It knew that there were immoral consequences to alcohol consumption -- most child abuse, most spousal abuse, about half of violent crimes and most rapes are accompanied by alcohol. Nobody has ever raped because smoking a cigarette or a cigar numbed his conscience. And no one fears smoking drivers; we rightly fear drinking drivers.

Both in my hometown and on the road, I find great joy in visiting cigar stores and schmoozing with the owners and with the guys smoking there. In fact, cigar stores may be the last place men can get together without women.

Of course if you think I am really killing people due to the secondhand smoke they inhale from my cigar or pipe, I presume all discussion ends. I am then simply a killer who needs to be stopped. I find absurd the notion that more than 50,000 Americans are killed every year just by being in the presence of smokers. But if you believe it, all you need to do is open a window and enjoy yourself.

The late legendary comedian George Burns was a listener to my radio talk show. When he was around 90 years old, he invited me to his Beverly Hills home. In the course of our two hours together, he smoked two cigars and had a couple of martinis. I asked him what his doctor said about those habits. George looked at me and responded, "My doctor died."

My father is 88 years old and has been smoking a few cigars a day (in my 87-year-old mother's presence, I might add). They are both in near-perfect health. He not only taught me the joys of cigars. He also taught me the importance of thinking for myself and how to lead an honorable life that includes as much joy as possible.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Nice column
That's all I have to say. While you rely a bit too heavily on anecdotal fallacies, I agree with the gist of your article. For the most part, the risks posed by cigar smoking (and especially pipe smoking) are minimal. And secondhand smoke does not kill 50,000 people a year. That's a figure obtained from EPA studies that had their margins of errors warped until that number fell into it, which was then repeated by the media until it was treated as a fact.

All I can say is, smoke away.

I agree with you
I don't understand the prohibition of everything that doesn't directly endanger other people. I agree that alcohol is MUCH more dangerous than smoking a pipe or cigar and hardly anyone says anything about it and it is glorified in every TV program and movie that comes out. It didn't used to be SO blatant as it is now. Now EVERY time someone is happy it's "let's have a beer" If someone comes to your place it "how about a beer" or a cocktail or a glass of wine. Whenever they go out to eat, the actors always have some kind of alcoholic drink, before, during or after the meal or maybe all three.
Then there are the parents who have to go to the police station to get their kids and they say "Thank goodness it was only alcohol and not drugs" Don't those parents realize that alcohol is a drug and many times it is an additive one. You're right about all the problems caused by alcohol and that doesn't even begin to count the wasted money for the alcohol and the fines, lawyers and court costs that could have been used to make a better life for the family of the alcohol user.
Here in Texas we have such a strong liquor lobby that the legislature won't even raise the tax on alcohol by a few cents to help pay for all the damage that is done by the drunks and those foolish enough to get behind the wheel and drive after drinking. They raised the tax on a pack of cigarettes by a dollar just the last session of the legislature, but NOT a penny on alcohol.

Good subject
I too enjoy a good cigar or pipe, and even a dip of coarse snuff from time to time, but I must admit that my preference is the old nasty cigerette. I also have no desire to stop. Addicted? Must be:-),but that is my problem. I do my absolute best to honor people that do not smoke. The campaign against smokers may well help the younger generation, but it limits my exposure to the city. Once again it is my problem. Keep on puffin:-)

Non-smoking and non-peeing sections?
I agree with Dr Prager about the inconsistency of some anti-smoking zealots, and don't mind what he does in his own car or house. But he has no more right smoke in a public enclosed space than to pee in a swimming pool. The bottom line is that second-hand smoke is unpleasant for many just like second-hand pee, and can harm asthmatics.

Please consider the other side
I am an asthmatic, and I routinely have to walk by people smoking in front of stores, etc. Even a single breath of smoke is enough to send me into a coughing fit that lasts for a long time, if not a full-blown asthma attack. I have had smokers give me dirty looks, and just keep puffing away, perhaps thinking that I'm making it worse than it is. One time I was standing in a long line and I had to leave because of a smoker whose cigarrette was starting to make me very ill.

I don't care what you do in your own home or car or wherever. But it is common courtesy not to offend others with the horrid smell that is truly sickening to a lot of people.

Man, I Love Biblical Jews!
" We live in the Age of Stupidity. This new age has been induced by widespread college education and widespread secularism -- Psalms is entirely accurate: "Wisdom begins with fear of the Lord" -- which explains, for example, why only well-educated secularists came to believe that there were no innate nonphysical differences between men and women."

Amen. I would have been one of the last to make the connection, but you're right. The world is wading in folly because it fears not God.

Come to think of it, anyone who wouldn't be afraid of GOD is probably pretty foolish. No matter what thing you could fear, God is bigger than it and possibly responsible for it.

On another tangent,

Jews originally were allowed to make fires on Shabbat in the original ten commandments that Moses angrily hurled down at them from Sinai. After that, the second version was more restrictive, adding to the list of "you shall do no work" the restriction, "nor make any fire for yourself".

Sweet Lei
Not everyone is as sensitive as you. Smoking etiquette is that when someone asks you nicely to please put it out, you do so. Try it.

I could quit ANY TIME!
"I have been smoking both since I was 15 years old, and could stop tomorrow if I wanted to."

C'mon, Dennis, surely someone as smart as you knows how cliched that statement is.

I can only speak for myself
Yes, the line is cliched, and I can't speak for Dennis. However, I've given up cigars/pipes for Lent before, no problem. For me it's really only a once a week thing, so I don't hesitate to deny addiction at all. I am, however, almost definitely addicted to caffeine.

Good Ol' Dennis!
Yeah, it reminds me of Richard Pryor's famous line, "I been doin' cocaine 15 years, and I ain't addicted yet."

All I want to see before I die of cigarette smoking for 55 years -- I ain't addicted yet -- is for all the home fireplaces removed in California. I will personally show up at Rob Reiner's house, to watch.

Cry Babies
Dennis, Enjoy yourself. I lived around 2 heavy smokers for 18 years. I do not suffer from ANY of the crap that is spewed by the media and the anti-smoking zealots. Its all a lie. The only people affected by smoking are those that smoke. I smoked for 8 years and stopped one day because I got tired of managing my life around my smoking.

Percentages...
Anyone know the percentage of cigar smokers dying from cancer vs. the percentage of practicing homosexuals dying from AIDS?

Why Does Anyone Even Want To Try It?

Let me say right off the bat that while I'm a lifelong nonsmoker,
I'm no nonsmoking zealot. That being said, I've never understood
how anyone ever gets past the smell in order to even want to TRY
tobacco. The smell of cigarettes is absolutely vile. Cigars are
worse. Pipes are almost tolerable for brief periods, as long as
the person isn't smoking that fruit-flavored tobacco.

When I was a kid and smoking was allowed in airport terminals,
disembarking from an airplane always involved running the
gauntlet of smoke from addicts who had to light up the very
moment they left the boarding tunnel and set foot in the terminal
proper, as they'd been deprived of indulging in their habit since
the beginning of the descent phase of the flight. And there was
always some guy ahead of me who was smoking that fruit-flavored
pipe tobacco. Gack! I'll always associate that stuff with
airports.


-CB-

Second hand smoke
Funniest anti-second-hand-smoke measure I ever saw was in Oriole Park in Baltimore. The stadium is surrounded on two sides by an elevated highway and on a very short distance away stands a garbage incinerator. So, to make sure that the fans stay healthy, they banned smoking! Yes, that's right, second hand smoke is surely much worse than exhaust fumes and burning garbage. (Not to mention that the city was then averaging 300+ murders a year, but seemed to put more effort into stopping smokers than killers. People were stopped on the street and receiving warnings for smoking on the sidewalk in front of the University of Maryland at Baltimore, while entire neighborhoods were being described as "open air drug markets", and nothing much was being done about them. Just seems a strange prioritization of police efforts.)

Typo
"...and on a very short distance away stands a garbage..."

should read:

"...and on another side, a very short distance away, stands a garbage..."

Now I really gotta try one...
Prager says he likes the taste. So I hafta assume that the smell (they do stink) is completely unrelated to how they taste.
So I guess now I gotta try one. I'm anticipating heaven.

IT'S ABOUT TIME
Someone had the nerve to publish a pro smoking article. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the solution for people like Sweet Lei. As GunnyG said above, if you know that you have a problem with the side effects of second hand smoke, when your walking down the street and see up ahead that people are smoking and you just continue to walk their way instead of choosing to walk around them, well it appears you have other issues to deal with as well.

I will believe the research results and the advice of the EPA, and other effected people who say that you are violating my personal space when you smoke in front of me when the government does something (other than fines) about large factories and small shops that knowingly continue to dump hazardous material in to our waterways while the government watch dogs look the other way.

What about the big black cloud's of smoke that comes out the exhaust pipe's from all of the big rigs that are traveling the streets of America every single day. I guarantee you that the toxins that are released into the air by a diesel truck in one day far surpasses the smoke that comes out of the lungs over a lifetime of a million smokers.

Is taking smoke bad for your health? absolutely without doubt, but last month so was eating spinach. Many of the rescue workers who responded to the disaster of 9/11 are now experiencing health problems, mainly upper respiratory problems as a result of breathing in the toxins that filled the air that terrible day from building materials that are known dangerous but allowed to still used everyday. If you really want to really expose your lungs to toxins that make second hand smoke look like kids play just have new carpeting installed in you home or office.

Chemicals are all around us and are impossible to escape. Everyone one knows (including the government) that the chemicals that are rolled into cigarettes are lethal, yet do you see any government agency putting tobacco companies out of business and saving us from the effects of these toxins?...He11 no!

hntr admin
http://www.headsneedtoroll.org

I eat eggs and use real butter
I don't smoke and have no interest in it. And I am glad the dominant days of smoking are behind us. But I have long time felt that enough is enough. Pressing further against smoking is an infringement on people's right to be wrong. There are so many camels being swallowed whole while our society strains at this gnat.

My Experience with Smoking
I used to smoke a pack and a half to two packs of cigarettes a day. I love to smoke, and though I knew it causes serious health problems I didn't care because I was an idiot teenage drug-using heavy metal fan who just wanted to get high and laid.

Then I became a Christian and quit smoking along with everything else. I didn't miss the drugs, but I did have the urge to smoke now and then. For a few years I was able to overcome the urge.

Finally one day I had a very strong desire to smoke and gave in, saying, "just one." I was hooked for another year. I quit again thanks to a violent bout with the flu, but kept having periodic urges even a few years later.

The next time I couldn't seem to fight the urge I bought a cigar instead of a pack of cigarettes. I smoked it and was satisfied for several weeks.

It's been 9 years now and I haven't had one cigarette. I'm satisfied with one or two cigars a week, sometimes I go longer without one. They're much less addictive, they are made from 100% natural tobacco with no fillers or chemicals, and they don't thrash out my lungs because I don't inhale the smoke. At one or two a week it's MUCH cheaper than the carton a week I used to buy. And I don't have to smoke every 30 minutes, so I can choose to smoke when and where I won't bother anyone. Not as good as going smoke-free, perhaps, but much better than cigarettes.

Favorite Cigar: Rocky Patel Edge Maduro

Even though I don't smoke
I am astonished at the virulent attacks on smokers as if they were the devil personified. I have before smoked a cigar a day to relieve the stress of the day and when my situation changed and the stress was not there, I quit, no problem. The bogus studies on second hand smoke are simply more lies to control people. If tobacco was as bad as they say, they would make it a controlled substance. But, there is too much money to be made, so the hypocrits want to have their cake and eat it too. All the "do-gooders" that want to tell everyone what they should eat, wear, buy and use are simply the new "nazis" (food-nazis, tobacco-nazis, animal-nazis, etc). If you don't like it, don't do it! Otherwise, just shut up!!

I love CIGARS!
I've been smoking cigars since 1993 and have grown to love them more every passing year. My wife has not problem with me smoking in the house either. I do respect others when smoking around people but I also expect them to respect me by not making faces or saying stupid things (tough in the Gay State of Massachusetts). Anyway, I always tell my co-workers how I love cigars and have cigar related memorabilia in my office. One of my co-workers always admonishes me about smoking and how unhealthy it is. The irony is that her husband was diagnosed with tongue cancer and had some of it removed...he never smoked anything in his life!!! There are a lot of people out there who are just a little too smart for their own good.

Secondhand smoke, baa humbug
My grandfather smoked. My father smoked. Neither my grandmother (passed at 86) nor my mother’s passing (at 96) was due because of secondhand smoke.

The broad that deliberately came into the Cigar Bar, just so she could complain, deserves no respect.

cigars
Dennis,
Did you wake up and think I haven't had some good criticism in awhile I think I'll write an article and get some?!!!

I'm not a smoker (cigs or cigar) I don't particularly like it but what I can't stand even more is when people think it's their right to tell others not to and where to and try to set a moral standard!

go for it!
:)



Jerubaal and GunnyG
"Smoking etiquette is that when someone asks you nicely to please put it out, you do so. Try it."

I tried that for a long time when I had to be around smoke for a prolonged period. However, the infrequency of my success, and the number of outraged replies that I dare infringe upon their God-given right to polute the atmosphere and their own bodies with the carcinogenic trash, made me stop. By the time I inhale the second-hand smoke at all, the damage is already done. For example, that man in the line was one that a friend asked kindly to put it out, and he refused, turning the other way and puffing away. Even when other people, seeing how sick it was making me, asked him if he could put out his cigarrette out of politeness toward the young lady who by this point was having trouble breathing, but by this point I was leaving anyway.

GunnyG- I assure you that it isn't just ONE person. Jono64a, for example, is also against it. There are thousands and thousands of asthmatics, as well, many of them affected by cigarrette smoke to some degree or another.

The problem is, I often smell them before I see them, and my reaction to cigarrette smoke is severe enough that by then it's already too late.

The cigar bar story is amusing- was the woman blonde, or just illiterate so she could not read the sign in front?

Please understand, I'm not trying to force anyone to quit smoking (even though my personal opinion is that it's a disgusting habit), but is your addiction really so serious that you can't wait until you get home, or to your own car, etc?

Re: IT'S ABOUT TIME

hntr admin writes:

> As GunnyG said above, if you know that you have a problem
> with the side effects of second hand smoke, when your
> walking down the street and see up ahead that people are
> smoking and you just continue to walk their way instead
> of choosing to walk around them, well it appears you have
> other issues to deal with as well.

Depending on the locale, that may not always be possible
without stepping off the sidewalk and into the street.
And why should anyone have to step into the street to
avoid smokers, any more than they should have to step
into the street because people ahead of them are walking
several abreast? Or doing anything else that's unnecessary?

One thing that annoys me is the way smokers congregate
outside the entrances to buildings, so that anyone entering
or leaving must pass through a cloud of cigaratte smoke --
or the nasty, lingering odor thereof, at the very least.

Laws should be passed which compel smokers not only to smoke
outside, but to smoke at least some minimum distance away from
the nearest entrance to a building. If that puts them out in
the rain at certain times of the year, so much the better. It
would provide them with that much greater an incentive to quit.


> I will believe the research results and the advice of the
> EPA, and other effected people who say that you are
> violating my personal space when you smoke in front of me
> when the government does something (other than fines) about
> large factories and small shops that knowingly continue to
> dump hazardous material in to our waterways while the
> government watch dogs look the other way.

And likewise, the companies that own those shops and factories
could take the attitude of, "We'll do something about our pol-
lution when the government takes care of a much more common,
mundane, and everyday source of pollution: cigarette smoke!"
See the flaw in your reasoning? Cigarette smoke has no bearing
on industrial pollution, or vice versa.


> What about the big black cloud's of smoke that comes out the
> exhaust pipe's from all of the big rigs that are traveling
> the streets of America every single day. I guarantee you that
> the toxins that are released into the air by a diesel truck
> in one day far surpasses the smoke that comes out of the
> lungs over a lifetime of a million smokers.

What about it? Is there some natural law which states that no
source of air pollution can be addressed until society is prepared
to address all possible forms of air pollution simultaneously?

Look, I'm as tired of all the silly posturing over secondhand smoke
as anyone is. If tobacco smoke were a fraction as toxic as these
zealots insist it is, smokers themselves would die immediately from
smoking a single cigarette. Imagine how much more concentrated the
smoke is from THEIR perspective.

That being said, the fact of the matter is that tobacco smoke
annoys people. No justification for their annoyance is necessary.

The fact that some people protest too much, and whine about alleged
health issues as a way of being taken more seriously than they'd be
if they only said they disliked the smell, doesn't give smokers
social license to inconsiderately disgregard the fundamental fact
of their annoyance.


> Is taking smoke bad for your health? absolutely without doubt,
> but last month so was eating spinach. Many of the rescue workers
> who responded to the disaster of 9/11 are now experiencing health
> problems, mainly upper respiratory problems as a result of breath-
> ing in the toxins that filled the air that terrible day from
> building materials that are known dangerous but allowed to still
> used everyday. If you really want to really expose your lungs to
> toxins that make second hand smoke look like kids play just have
> new carpeting installed in you home or office.

Eating spinach was unhealthy only briefly, and for a reason that
was not intrinsic to spinach. Bad analogy.

Rescuing people on 9/11 was necessary, and exposure to potential
harm is part of the job description for firemen. Bad analogy.

Toxins from new carpeting or paint is a matter that should be
addressed -- and probably is. What's that got to do with
smoking?


> Chemicals are all around us and are impossible to escape. Everyone
> one knows (including the government) that the chemicals that are
> rolled into cigarettes are lethal, yet do you see any government
> agency putting tobacco companies out of business and saving us
> from the effects of these toxins?...He11 no!

Well, why do you think that is? The fact that lots of people earn
their livings from the tobacco industry is part of it, but only
part -- as is the fact that tobacco products are a significant
source of tax revenue. No, the REAL reason is that most of
society recognizes the fact that whether to smoke or not is an
individual decision, not something that's amenable to statist
social engineering.


-CB-


Re: Percentages

anti-socialist writes:

> Anyone know the percentage of cigar smokers dying from cancer
> vs. the percentage of practicing homosexuals dying from AIDS?


What a bizarre question. Why are conservatives so obsessed with
homosexuality? No matter what the topic in one of these forums
is, it's always just a matter of time before someone contrives
a homosexuality angle.


-CB-



Re: My Experience with Smoking

RedWhite&Blue writes:

> Then I became a Christian and quit smoking along with everything else.


Uh, I'm not sure I see how the one leads to the other. Has the
concept of becoming a Christian been tightened up to the point
where it's now tantamount to becoming a Mormon?



-CB-


PUFF PUFF PUFF
It's getting kinda smokey in here.

GunnyG
Nice metaphorical exhale at suite lay.

Antidote for political correctness.
We have a duty to smoke cigars, which I take quite seriously. My father smoked them. My Uncle John smoked them. I used to belong to a men's community and we smoked them. I love them. But, even more importantly, I believe myself to be an ambassador for masculinity in its traditional form in doing so. I believe that political correctness is a mental disease which indicates an insufficient supply of testosterone. Cigar smoke is its antidote. For the sake of my brothers and sisters, I ply my cure whenever and wherever possible. I hope some of you do the same. It's important. Cigar smoke and bull**** cannot occupy the same airspace. If we all do our part, we will break again into the fresh air of a balanced society. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Anti Smoking Zealots = Liberals
I happen to agree with Dennis that cigar and pipe smoking can, in fact, be good for you insomuch as they have a calming effect and is a great stress reliever. Also the bunk about second-hand smoke has as much credibility in science as global warming does.

Those who preach about the dangers of second hand smoke almost assuredly are the ones warning us about global warming, trans fats in foods, the dangers of kids not wearing bike helmets and a host of other popular “liberal” causes. The bottom line is liberals do not want people to enjoy themselves. It really is that simple. Smoking, eating tasty foods, driving your Porsche 911 which gets 4 miles to the gallon infuriate them because you are enjoying life and having a good time about it. Liberals, by their very nature, are all about gloom & doom. God forbid someone actually does something they enjoy and liberals will tell you 50 reasons why it’s bad for you, or the environment, or the 3-legged snail worm, or some other equally specious reasoning.

The bottom line is to have your cigars with a fine 25 year old single malt Scotch and thank God he has produced wondrous gifts you to enjoy.

The difference beteeen Cigar's &
Cigaretts, is obvious to the bystander.

Have you ever noticed when aproaching a building, and everyone outside smoking, is having a cigarette.
Yet' not too often do you see a Cigar smoker in the group.
Reason: Quite simple, the Cigar smoker truely enjoy's the moment and the ritual of the moment.
As to the cigarett smoker, is merely trying to quell their addiction.
I know' I used to smoke cigaretts 30 years ago, and yes I was addicted then.
But I will not light my Cigar, until I can sit it private, or by a stream, and spend the next 45 mins. enjoying myself without disturbing anyone else, if I did, that would ruin my moment as well.
It is one of the few pleasures in life that I do, that I can do alone to clear my mind of the day's event.
One more thought' I also love to get on TH, and rip a Lib. a new one while biting down on a good Cuban! A true "pleasure"

Smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette . . .
as the old song goes.

When the militant leftists started their "killer tobacco" rants decades ago, I was a smoker (quit in 1993). It seems their rhetoric is way overstated.

How long does it take for smoking to kill a person? It seems to take (surprise!): A LIFETIME!

How many 25-year old smokers die from lung cancer?

They're not just for guys
Roger that, GunnyG..
I recently attended the 65th birthday party of a close friend. It was a beautiful evening for sitting on his veranda with a warming snifter of Remi Martin and a Cohiba. There were about a dozen of us....half of them our wives!

GunnyG LOL
I'm not sure,but the comment's were mostly conservatives' Were'nt they.
I did'nt recognize one lib. so far.
I have a box of no brand Cubans coming this week, can't wait!

Burnin one as we speak, Brother'

Re: Anti Smoking Zealots = Liberals

JSG writes:

> Those who preach about the dangers of second hand smoke almost
> assuredly are the ones warning us about global warming, trans
> fats in foods, the dangers of kids not wearing bike helmets and
> a host of other popular ?liberal? causes. The bottom line is
> liberals do not want people to enjoy themselves. It really is
> that simple.

I don't think it's that. Or to be more precise, I don't think
that's all of it.

What I think is that liberals are neurotic by nature. That's why
they're so guiltridden, and you the rest of us should be, also.
They always find something to worry about; every silver cloud has
a dark lining, to mangle a popular truism. A liberal could win
the effin' lottery, and he'd find some reason to angst about it.

The liberal quasi-religion, environmentalism, provides lots of examples
of this mindset. Ever notice that whetever the proposed solution to
our energy problems is, the liberals always find some reason to object
to it? Windmills kill birds (personally, I prefer to think that they
just weed out the stupid ones). Hydroelectric dams interfere with the
migration of what fish they don't kill in their turbines (didn't we
take care of the problem decades ago, with those fish-ladder things?).

I think that at base, this is the result of a belief that things such
as pleasure and achievement are zero-sum games: any gains are made only
at someone else's expense. If you're happy, then you must be oppressing
someone. Or raping the environment. Or something.


> The bottom line is to have your cigars with a fine 25 year old
> single malt Scotch and thank God he has produced wondrous gifts
> you to enjoy.

Hear hear!



-CB-


Typo

A moment ago I wrote:

: What I think is that liberals are neurotic by nature. That's why
: they're so guiltridden, and you the rest of us should be, also.


That should've read:

What I think is that liberals are neurotic by nature. That's why
they're so guiltridden, and think the rest of us should be, also.

Note to self: Don't type when someone is talking to you.


-CB-

Re: Creighton Beryll

GunnyG writes:

> I work for DoD and the MINIMUM distance for smokers is 50 feet AWAY
> from any entrance and in my travels, that appears to be the norm.

Not in my experience in the private sector here in Silicon Valley.
Here, it's common for people to smoke right outside the doors.
Even the _lobby_ doors.


> What a lot of you don't seem to realize that agreeing with the
> legislation of someone else's rights away because YOU don't
> do it, i.e., smoke, drink, etc., is WRONG!

> What are you gonna do when they come after YOU like to do?

I understand that. (Not sure whether that was directed at me,
but I wanted to clarify my position.) Then again, mandating
that people smoke outside, and smoke some minimum distance
away from buildings, is hardly the same thing as prohibiting
smoking.


> You want to smoke? Fine, just don't expect money from the
> Feds to pay for your health care.

No disagreement there.


-CB-

Re: They're not just for guys

MarineDad writes:

> I recently attended the 65th birthday party of a close friend.
> It was a beautiful evening for sitting on his veranda with a
> warming snifter of Remi Martin and a Cohiba. There were about
> a dozen of us....half of them our wives!


Sorry, but I just can't wrap my brain around the idea of women
smoking cigars. Smoking in general is not a feminine habit,
IMHO, and smoking cigars, particularly not.

Should women be permitted to infiltrate _every_ masculine enclave?
To paraphrase the Talking Heads, sometimes the boys just want to
be with the boys. Prager recognizes this; see his comment about
cigar shops.



-CB-

CB
RedWhite&Blue writes:

> Then I became a Christian and quit smoking along with everything else.

"Uh, I'm not sure I see how the one leads to the other. Has the concept of becoming a Christian been tightened up to the point where it's now tantamount to becoming a Mormon?"

RedWhite&Blue writes:

>Uh, was I supposed to keep smoking? At the time it seemed like a good idea to quit ALL my addictions. I didn't intend that sentence as a commentary on Christian ethics, that's just how it happened for ME. Don't read too much into it.

PC the bane of masculinity
johnpaulcondon, you have it exactly right. It is no wonder to me that the terrorist of the world think they can kick our asses. What with Oprah, Dr. Phil, erectile dysfunction drug commercials, and other sissy stuff in the media these are the symptoms of the wussifacation of the United States. I enjoy my Labbats blue beer, my Onyx special reserve maduros, looking at beautiful women and hunting for my own food. If we don't turn this around we will all be speaking arabic.

Creighton Beryll: Wrote
Should women be permitted to infiltrate _every_ masculine enclave?
To paraphrase the Talking Heads, sometimes the boys just want to
be with the boys. Prager recognizes this; see his comment about
cigar shops.

I disagree' Some of my most ground breaking conversations, have been with women, while partaking in this ritual.
The woman that will share this expierence,is usually the most open minded of their gender.

Yes I prefer the company of men, when I smoke, but if you want to broaden your horizon, then invite a female to share a good one with you.
You might be surprized,they have alot to offer.

puffin' away
As a physician, I can't agree with all of Dennis' disclaimers about the benignity of long-term cigar smoking. Unquestionably some of the smoke (whether you inhale or not), gets into your lungs. And certainly one gets a substantial dose of nicotine when smoking/sucking a big stogie. And I also agree with other commentators that he is undoubtedly addicted to this once/daily dosing form.

Having stipulated to those factoids (as my attorney friends say), I must also confess to sharing many of his sentiments concerning the almost unrivalled satisfaction (including the much shorter rewards of sex) of a really good cigar in the right environment!

As for the liberal bashing which seems irrestible to some conservatives, I would simply say that the seeming inevitable turn to the topic of homosexuality in conservative discourse would be explained clearly by Dr. Freud as defensive against the obviously repressed fears of their own sexual ambivalence, which I always suspect is present just below the surface in those who revel in attempting to foist their morality ( or "family values", or "good Christianity", etc., etc. on others.

8 new bad habit bans
Wow, maybe if the people so against any kind of tobacco could lobby against all the things that are really unhealthy in our lives. I have a few bad habit policies that I think the government should enforce, because after all, they aren't intrusive enough in our lives:
1. No alcohol policy - drunk driving, cirrhosis and domestic disputes.
2. No sex policy - STD's, AIDS, population control, unwanted pregnancy's.
3. No fried or fatty foods - obesity, heart problems, support of the big bad corporations.
4. No talk radio - it causes one to actually think for themselves, and it's not fair for just one point of view.
5. No Fox news - it sometimes gives two points of views, unlike the "intellectual" MSM.
6. No pets - keeping animals captive may harm their self esteem.
7. No fee abortions - one shouldn't have to be burdened with paying for a "mistake" one made.
8. No religion - it causes one to have faith in something else besides the government and of course, it causes all the wars in the world.

I do agree that smoke can be annoying to people and one should be mindful at times, but as Amercians we have to right to choose what we do with our bodies? I think the "choose what we do with our bodies", is a common phrase of the pro-abortion crowd and if that argument works for them, why can't it work for the smokers?
After all, abortion kills millions of lives a year, and I haven't seen the uproar over that isssue.

more puffin''
p.s. to Jack H. :

May not agree with your whole thesis, but well-written stuff! Is the address given below your message your personal blog?

drj@rcn.com

Laws Laws Laws and More Laws
That is the problem with this country now. There are too bloomin many laws, of which a large percentage are dedicated to protecting ourselves from ourselves. Let's outlaw hamburgers and frys,pancakes and syrup,coffee and donuts,ice cream and cake, pizza and beer(uh oh,,got to do sports with that),popcorn and butter, and anything and every thing that just might be unhealthy or dangerous for any US citizen. Or better yet why don't we just make every thing that does not directly harm anyone else legal and see what happens. Try it for 5 years. Make all drugs legal(alcohol,tobbaco,coffee,etc..all are drugs)for personal use. How would that work? It would save millions on drug enforcement, stop most drug related murders, and effectively eliminate the portion of the population that are excessively chronic addicts. Make a law that states that anyone bringing drugs into this country is guilty and give them the death sentence. Watch what happens..Selah..The drug cartels and their influence would die die die.
Make it a federal offence to be a politician that lies. Life in prison,no parole. Stop dealing with murderers..cook em in oil. Rapists, give em a thousand lashes with a 6 pound sledge. Feed all prisoners bologna sandwiches and milk 3 times a day, but weld their cell doors shut so there is no chance of escape. Child pornographers should be drawn and quartered in public. Drunk drivers, get em good and drunk strap em to the hood of a Humvee, and drive through New York at 130 mph in winter, and last but not least..lets make it illegal to publish any advertizement that is untrue. That would fix every thing. Yadda Yadda Yadda..I am so glad Jesus came to save me! If not I would be totally screwed,blued,and tatooed! Ya just gotta lub an idiot:-)

Can I say something?
I have asthma. I am also an ex-smoker (cig's). I take offense that someone is basically defending all asthmatics because they are particularly sensitive to cigarette smoke. It doesn't do anything to my asthma. (Yes, I know I'm an idiot for having smoked, but I did quit.)

I will have an asthma attack if I am confronted with strong perfume. I'm not joking (the causal factors for asthmatics varies widely amoungst the population).

I was in a fancy restaurant and the woman at the table next to me was wearing about a gallon of something and I immediately started showing the signs of having an asthma attack. I asked if I could be seated elsewhere (she sat after I did) to avoid the problem. The restaurant refused. I got up, with my date, and started to leave. The restaurant management tried to tell me that I had to pay for the food I had ordered, but which had not been served yet. I refused. They threatened to call the police, I told them to go ahead. I ended up leaving.

The same thing happened at another restaurant, except they graciously re-seated me so that I wouldn't be subjected to a health risk. Guess who got my business when I dropped $10,000 on a holiday dinner for my employees?

I don't mind cigarette smoke, but the zealots who use asthma as their excuse drive me insane. I am going to start a campaign to outlaw the wearing of perfume in public. I mean, who would be upset, the French?

If you smoke, be mindful of others. If you don't smoke, frequent a different establishment. Vote with your dollars, not with my rights.

It's the smell, stupid.
I don't much care about the 'secondhand smoke' debate. However...

To me, tobacco smoke is in the same league as body odor, excessive perfume, abcessed teeth, tonsiloliths, dog-doo, beached whales, and tire fires, and you smokers would be hard pressed to convince me that you haven't ever complained about smelling any of those. It's fine with me if you want to smell that way in private, but in public you'll receive the same treatment from me as if the odor coming from you was any of the other things that I listed.

Guys like John H. just don't get it....
You're opposed to smoking - now lighten up Mr. Moralist. The other day I saw a NO SMOKING sign
on a...golf course. This is what it is coming to. We have some nice sports bar/restaurants in the Atlanta metro area. If they allow smoking in the restaurant, children cannot come in. I
can understand that. But, even on the OUTDOOR dining sections? I don't smoke and I don't want my children exposed to it. However, I do believe adults should be able to make their own choices.

The article is simply about the pleasures of cigar smoking. If you disagree, fine. However,
I don't think Mr. Prager is an addict who needs
a nanny-like scolding.

ctjaeger
Well said!
I'm not asthmatic, but I do get a splitting headache when I smell heavy perfume,or when I need to buy laundry detergent,all the perfumed scents they add, just kill me.

I agree' "Vote with your dollar,not with my rights"
Well said.

James
If you read my post,you would see that most Cigar smoker's are a private group.
This column was not about cigaretts, I tend to agree with your list of offensive items.
Though, your ranting's,are equally offensive.
Im absolutely sure you partake in some practice that ofends someone,somewhere.
Maybe we should pass a law on that.
Do you mow a lawn,drive a car cook bacon,make coffee?
This is offensive to someone.
So before you throw stones,you'd better open a window,as not to break your own glass!

I hate cigarettes
I do not like smoking, although I wouldn't consider myself an anti-smoking zealot. And, yes, there is a huge difference between pipe/cigar smokers vs. cigarette smoking. Part of the reason I find cigarette smoking so repulsive is the logical association with stupidity and cigarette smoking. Knowing the addictive properties of cigarettes as well as the health implicatons regarding cigarette smoking, one must ask what kind of a dope would take up smoking? The answer is, only a weak person with little self control, and not enough smarts. Why would anyone want to put up with the smokers hacking cough, scratchy voice and that awful oder on the smokers breath, hair and clothes? It is a totally inconsiderate habit. Everyone around the smoker is stuck smelling that foul oder clinging to their clothes and hair. I have no habit that imposes consequences on strangers around me, and would never take any up because I have too much consideration for others. I haven't even touched on the allergy attacks smoking can cause to people, myself included.
Clearly the issue of addiction does not pertain to pipe/cigar smoking, so the association with stupidity does not pertain to those smokers. It is true that most pipe/cigar smokers smoke to relax in the privacy of their homes and do not inflict bother on strangers.

Anti-Smoking Zealots Are Hypocrites
I, too, have enjoyed a pipe since taking it up on active duty in the U.s. Army back in 1973. Acquired a liking for a good cigar after a fine meal about the same time. And, yes, it is relaxing - and it doesn't impair my driving ability when I'm done.

The zealots are the worst kind of hypocrites. The same ding-dongs who would complain about second-hand smoke see nothing wrong in dragging their sniffling, hacking, coughing, even vomitting children or grandchildren into public places - and they don't give a tinker's damn about infecting anyone else - it's THEIR RIGHT to take the child in public! Then, of course, there is the anti-smoker who drives the SUV, Humvee or other glorified personnel carrier - the vehicle can be seen a block away from the carbon monoxide and exhaust trail - but, hey, it's THEIR RIGHT to drive their vehicle of choice - and screw the atmosphere. Finally, of course, there are those who preach, kvetch and whine - and when they get home light up the joint, snort the snow that doesn't fall from the sky, or use other assorted recreational drugs - but of course we can't talk about health here because its THEIR RIGHT to use it.

The hypocricy continues because beating on smokers is THE officially sanctioned discrimination since it isn't PC to discriminate based on race, sex, age, sexual preference and whole plethora of other protected catagories. The EPA studies are worthless because like so many they relied upon concentrations of nicotine that you would never encounter in real life. The only truly valid study, to date, has been that came out of Great Britain last year - and it employed a four decades long test base. Guess what that study's findings were? That's why you never hear it mentioned on this side of the Atlantic.

As an asthmatic and the possessor of more than one allergy, I've got no problem with restricting tobacco's use in confined areas, government buildings, restaurants (though a stand alone bar should bea llowed to decide the issue for itself). But if I'm engaged outdoors in a legal activity - and some busybody deliberately puts himself/herself in my space and then complains about my pipe or cigar, my response is simple: BITE ME!

GunnyG
I exacerbate my freedoms, when it comes to Moslems.
I thank God every time I eat pork, and spit on the name of Mohamed.
I agree, the taking of freedoms, whether it be a smoke in public,or the right to use the N word, without being arested for a hate crime, as charged with insighting a riot, I used to use the term affectionatley toward my best friend, though now it is another lost freedom,the freedom of speach!
Though, I still use it in the privacy of my own home,people are just too da_mned sensitive anymore.
To all you Whiners, Lighten up!

The Idiot Speaks Again!
I agree with many of the posts here. My sister is a severe asthmatic and the smell of tobacco on my clothes sets it off. Also, perfume, hair spray, etc.. causes her discomfort to the point that she will not come visit me at my residence. Do I hate her for this,,no..does she hate me for smoking,,no.. I will not pay money to a diner that doesn't allow me my after meal smoke..My loss..But when it is illegal to smoke in the middle of a parking lot where noone is..that is just stupid. I sympathize because there are certain perfumes that almost cause me to vomit. Until I was a teenager plain old rubbing alcohol made me physically ill.
One way to help the smokers to quit or cut back would be to ban the sale of pre-rolled smokes. Several years ago my finances would not allow me to purchase brand name cigarettes so I started rolling my own and have decreased my smoking drasticly. I went from 2.5-3 packs a day down to approximately 1 pack a day. Plus, it is a pain to roll a smoke in many instances.:-)
Point is::The lawmakers have overburdened this nation with so many laws that the courts cannot keep up with the burden and the jails and prisons are stuffed with the results. It is a shame:-( Can we fix this? It is very doubtful, because we just keep on electing officials that operate on their personal agenda and not what the nation really needs..Selah..May the God and Father of my Lord, Savior, and Great High Priest bless you all on this man made holiday.Amen

CB
Leftists are against smoking tobacco (though not against smoking "rope", "sandle", "crack", or "H") claiming it is a burden on health care; yet they promote & condone sexual perversion and demand that tax payers support health care for the perverts.

("You want to smoke? Fine, just don't expect money from the Feds to pay for your health care."

Substitute 'smoke' with 'practice sexual perversion')


Sheila
sheila writes:
"I hate cigarettes
I do not like smoking, although I wouldn't consider myself an anti-smoking zealot."

oh really? i beg to differ.....read on, please

"Part of the reason I find cigarette smoking so repulsive is the logical association with stupidity and cigarette smoking. Knowing the addictive properties of cigarettes as well as the health implicatons regarding cigarette smoking, one must ask what kind of a dope would take up smoking? The answer is, only a weak person with little self control, and not enough smarts."

ok, i take offense to this. i enjoy smoking and i don't consider myself maniacal about it. i usually make a pack of cigarettes last 2-3 days. i am an educated person, not stupid. i am fully aware of the health implications of my smoking. why would a whining zealot like you be concerned with my habits? don't you have enough to do, what with worrying about the environment and all.

"Why would anyone want to put up with the smokers hacking cough, scratchy voice and that awful oder on the smokers breath, hair and clothes? It is a totally inconsiderate habit.Everyone around the smoker is stuck smelling that foul oder clinging to their clothes and hair."

well, methinks this is the pot calling the kettle black (see comment about being stupid above). it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that YOU should avoid tobacco if it offends you. if encounter a smoker, how does he or she know you are offended by their stupidity (your words, not mine)? do you wear a sign or button or an article of clothing indicating that YOU are a smoke-free zone? if not, shut up about it.

"I have no habit that imposes consequences on strangers around me, and would never take any up because I have too much consideration for others."

oh really? how would you know that? are well-mannered folks in the habit of informing others of their bad habits? not where i come from.
what a burden it must be to be so perfect. have you any REAL friends? or only the imaginary kind?

"I haven't even touched on the allergy attacks smoking can cause to people, myself included."

i think this issue has been refuted in a previous post.

"Clearly the issue of addiction does not pertain to pipe/cigar smoking, so the association with stupidity does not pertain to those smokers. It is true that most pipe/cigar smokers smoke to relax in the privacy of their homes and do not inflict bother on strangers."

i'm going to ignore the pipe/cigar addiction comments....and who says i don't smoke to relax?

to hear people like you, who think every behavior YOU PEOPLE don't like should be legistlated, you'd think we all light up only when we know we are in the presence of people like you, namely, the self-appointed perfect.

SMOKING
Firstly, there is something that has much more stigma attached than admitting to being a smoker. That is admitting to be an atheist. There's plenty of smokers in politics, but not one atheist has been elected to any office.

Secondly, I don't like smoking because it stinks. Back in my dating days, I was always amazed by women who would bathe and use expensive perfume themselves in preparation for a night out and then cover themselves with the stench of smoke exhaled from their blackened, mucous filled lungs. Yechhh.

These days, smokers often don't even smoke in their own houses because they know it yellows the walls and permeates curtains and furniture with the stench of an old ashtray. Why would they think it is ok to stink up other people's homes, buisnesses, and clothes when they won't even do it to their own?

If all smokers had decent manners and cared about others, they would hold off on a cigarette until they left the restaurant or bar. If they did, none of these no smoking laws would ever exist. The law is to protect citizens from thoughtless and selfish people who have to be forced to do what they should be doing anyway.

Solar:
"If you read my post,you would see that most Cigar smoker's are a private group."

And if you read MY post, you would see that I said I had no problem with what you do in private. It's only when people light up in public that it affects me, and therefore offends my sense of smell.

"Though, your ranting's,are equally offensive.
Im absolutely sure you partake in some practice that ofends someone,somewhere.
Maybe we should pass a law on that."

I'm sure I do things that offend someone, and I expect to receive the same treatment as I give when I'm offended. I'm a big boy, I can take it. It's a common theme here that nobody has a right to not be offended, but it's just as true that there's no right to have consequence-free actions, either.

"Do you mow a lawn,drive a car cook bacon,make coffee?
This is offensive to someone.
So before you throw stones,you'd better open a window,as not to break your own glass!"

There's no glass house here. If I emit a foul odor, call me on it. At least I'm actively trying to not stink, and I'll correct the problem if I'm able.

cigar-smoking REAL AMERICAN MEN!
as a female cigarette smoker, i have no desire to join the "boy's club" and smoke cigars. (i have pondered the thought, though, but am worried i might accidentally inhale and get sick...yuk).

but i must say, i love when i go out on my deck and find my dear husband smoking one of his stogies. i know he enjoys it and finds it relaxing. and i don't mind the smell. he's no connoisseur, by his own admission, but he likes what he likes.

now if i could just convince him to join ME in 12 y/o single-malt once in a while......

Chemicals aren't the same
One thing that bugs me is that the chemical difference between cigars and cigarettes is rarely cited. Most of the nasty stuff you hear listed in those TRUTH anti-smoking commercials aren't in cigars. Almost all of the really nasty chemicals that can and do cause the health problems are due to additives. Being around second hand cigar smoke is no more dangerous than being around a campfire or in a neighborhood where people use wood stoves for heat.

And further more, the two largest and longest studies on the effects of second hand smoke show NO correlation between second hand smoke and increased risks of cancers. Of course these studies don't fit the anti-smoking zealots agenda so they refuse to accept them.

By the way, I smoke the occasional cigar myself. I have not found them to be addictive, at one point I went from smoking them nearly every day to only smoking them weekly, to not smoking them for several weeks at a time, then back to frequent smoking of cigars, varied a lot. But never did I feel compelled to smoke a cigar by a craving. I did used to be addicted to clove cigarettes years ago, so I know what a compulsion to smoke feels like.


Cigar
Can I write an article titled "Why I fart in your face and poison the air you breathe"?

Quite honestly Dennis, I don't care if you live to be 150 and no one evers die of smoking related deseases. It stinks and it is rude.

James : you wrote
And if you read MY post, you would see that I said I had no problem with what you do in private. It's only when people light up in public that it affects me, and therefore offends my sense of smell.

There is no law against smokeing in public here in Ca. yet, and until there is I will follow the law.
If I purposely offend you with my smoke, then shame on me.
But if I do it accidently, then it's your problem!

Move away from the door!
First, Creighton Bell, the Bible admonishes the believer that his body is the temple of God and he should avoid damaging the temple. That's why Christians shouldn't smoke, drink to excess, do drugs, overeat, or engage in sexual immorality. It harms God's dwelling place and He asks us not to. Mormons have their own reasons for avoiding smoking, but Christians do it out of love for God.

Second, I don't smoke, wear strong perfume, or fart in public and I bathe regularly. Those arguments are not going to work on me since I try to be courteous. Our world today could use some courtesy.

Courtesy, however, is a two-way street.

My question is -- what is wrong with accepting responsibility for your own personal noxious habit? Why do smokers have to act like they're being victimized because non-smokers don't want their clothes and air to smell like tobacco and they don't want to breath in the second-hand pollution that smokers produce. Smoking is a chosen behavior and can be stopped or curtailed just as any addiction can be (not saying it's easy, but it's not impossible). If you choose to continue your unhealthy habit, fine, but don't inflict it upon others.

By that, I mean, don't smoke where non-smokers must walk through your cloud of pollutants. The building I work in has only one public entrance for security reasons. Don't smoke in front of that entrance. If you're in a public park, don't light up in the middle of a crowd of small children. Recognize that you are the one negatively changing the environment and that you need to take responsibility for your choices. You may or may not enjoy your addiction, but non-smokers do not and they should not be forced to participate in it.

Move away from the building! Light up away from the crowd! Then, if you're standing off by yourself or in a crowd of fellow smokers and a non-smoker comes over to complain you are perfectly within your rights to say "Drop dead!" If smokers would just politely move their stinky habit away from non-smokers there'd be no need for ordinances protecting us from you.

Nobody is victimizing you! You're the one causing the problem and you're the one who can choose to eliminate the conflict. It's not polite to pollute another's environment. So stop doing it! Move away from the door!

celtic lass
This is an article about Cigars, plain and simple!
Read my post:
solar writes: Tuesday, November, 21, 2006 11:01 AM
The difference beteeen Cigar's & cigaretts.

Your're preaching to the choir.

Smoking
As a lifelong non-smoker myself, honestly, my mother's smoking never once triggered an asthma attack in me-it was instead due to my horse's dander, and the hay! Well, ya can't have everything and given the neighborhood I lived in, the occasional struggle to breathe was surely less an obstacle than a teenage pregnancy or alcoholism/drug use would have been...if you can't stand the smoke, get out of the way.

solar:
"There is no law against smokeing in public here in Ca. yet, and until there is I will follow the law.
If I purposely offend you with my smoke, then shame on me.
But if I do it accidently, then it's your problem!"

I never said you aren't allowed to smoke in public, just that it stinks and you might hear about it from me because it's impolite. If you can't handle the criticism, then...well, you know.

celtic lass oops! aurorawatcher
oops that was meant for
aurorawatcher

celtic lass try one, but this time, it's ok to say:
"I did not inhale" To quote Clinton. ( :

good article
From a fellow (cheap) cigar aficionado: Huzzah! I love a good (cheap) cigar. I get cravings for them, but its a craving like what one would have for a Hershey bar or ice cream, as a treat. I actually haven't smoked a cigar in about 2 months and haven't smoked my pipe in 6 months. I miss them, but working inside 9 hours a day doesn't leave time for them much anymore (I'm not a smoke break person, since a good cigar takes more than 10 minutes). No withdrawal symptoms at all.

I don't like cigarette smoke either, but I think I find anti-smoking (Truuf.com) to be more obnoxious. Most smokers are less high-strung than the Nicotine Nazis.

James
I reiterate,If I purposely offend you with my smoke, then shame on me.
But if I do it accidently, then it's your problem!"

So if you approach me because Im in public, within my rights, then you're the one who is impolite, which might incur a responce from me that will cause you pause before you open your mouth again.

Whats impolite...
...is to request someone put out their Macanudo when they are only half-way through with it.

Re: Move away from the door!

aurorawatcher writes:

> First, Creighton Bell, the Bible admonishes the believer that
> his body is the temple of God and he should avoid damaging
> the temple. That's why Christians shouldn't smoke, drink to
> excess, do drugs, overeat, or engage in sexual immorality.

So Christians get to drink, but not to excess -- but aren't
allowed to smoke or do drugs at all? (Setting aside the fact
that alcohol is a drug...) I respect your choices, but all of
that sounds suspiciously like an across-the-board prohibition
on fun to me.

Seems like every religion has some degree of emphasis on
asceticism, from brief intervals of abstention at one end
of the continuum to literal self-flagellation at the other.
John Denver sang, "Thank God I'm a country boy." Christ in a
Countach, am I glad I'm a heathen.


> Mormons have their own reasons for avoiding smoking, but
> Christians do it out of love for God.

Mormons aren't Christians? They're the Church of [who] Of
Latter-Day Saints?


> My question is -- what is wrong with accepting responsibility
> for your own personal noxious habit? Why do smokers have to
> act like they're being victimized because non-smokers don't
> want their clothes and air to smell like tobacco and they
> don't want to breath in the second-hand pollution that
> smokers produce.

It's the culture of entitlement at work. It's part of the
same phenomenon that impels people to get belligerent when
their transgressions are brought to their attention nowadays,
instead of being contrite and apologetic like they'd have been
just a couple of decades back.


> Nobody is victimizing you! You're the one causing the problem
> and you're the one who can choose to eliminate the conflict.
> It's not polite to pollute another's environment. So stop doing
> it! Move away from the door!

Well said.



-CB-

jcthomasva
"Whats impolite...
...is to request someone put out their Macanudo when they are only half-way through with it.


Very true,It's funny how some Moron naturally aSSumes, because we smoke, somehow, were impolite.

I consume about 5 high quality Cigars a day, and I'll be Dam ned, if im going to waste a real enjoyment with a bunch of people around, giving me dirty looks,it's my private moment to get away from people.

Hey buddy' How do you pronounce "jcthomasva" phoneticaly.

Goes to show ya...
that we've been neutered by the effeminate Secular Progressive crowd who've indoctrinated our misguided left wing media and academic socialists to the point of rendering all manly men into castrated eunuch's.

Whew, I agree, cigarettes are foul smelling weeds, especially Asian and European brands. I quit domestic brands twenty years ago and haven't looked back. But cigars. Now that's a different story.

One a day is just what my doctor ordered to keep my blood pressure in check. My doctor's office policy is: "Patients Are Not To Wear Perfume or Cologne In This Office" Other patients and staff are sensitive and allergic to chemicals used in the compounding of those agents.

I find that quite a few men and women love the aroma of a fine Dominican or Honduran blended cigar. Those that don't. Well! Too bad. I don't like the aroma of most perfumes or colognes anyway. I'm pretty selective and most of their toilet water offends me - others too. Their just too PC to say so. If your fragrance is objectionable to me, you'll be told to leave the room. Banished for life.

Dennis is right, the relaxation associated with the enjoyment of a good cigar is unparalleled. It's comparable to great sex. It usually lasts for 45 minutes, not 10, and doesn't complain. Some women I know really enjoy smoking cigars - really smoking cigars, not what Bill Clinton equates to a woman smoking a cigar...

Bill: Very well said.

I have Angina, and I found, that if I light up a Cigar, it disappears.
I love your sex analogy, so true.

New religion
I haven't read Ann's new book yet, but I can guess that some of the material I'm about to mention is just a paraphrase of what she has observed. However, here goes...

The New Testament mentions that there will be those who, "worship the creature more than the creator." The "creature" refers, in part, to the created order: nature and mankind. So, if you take God out of the equation, there is still an impulse to adore. In the case of secularism, the object of adoration is: 1. Self, and 2. Nature. The impulse to desire immortality is strong too, and so the health cults are a natural result of the Godless secularism we see gaining strength nowadays. This tack will take many to strange and exotic isles with new belief systems and will breed zealous evangelists that will make Billy Graham pale.
The rabid, anti-smoking impulse is a logical result of the new secularist evangelism. The biblical cautions of getting drunk spawned prohibition, and was logically defensible; Prager so argues. The illogical neo-prohibition against smoking (alcohol has become secularism's "communion" so they can't do away with that sacrament)will, I predict, lead to people who will raid and destroy smokeshops, similar to Carrie Nation in the past.
Burning zeal, for those who are righteously indignant and want to "help" the unrighteous see the light (or in this case, not "light up"), will stop at nothing to ensure that everyone toe their mark. Smoke shops, beware.

Hello:-)
The other reason that I continue to roll my own is the lack of additives that readyrolls have in them. The tobacco I prefer is actually fresher than most cigars on the open market and it does not have the odor of readyrolls. Also, how many cigs does an avid computer-gamer burn up while playing? A lot:-)My cigs go out if not puffed on,similar to a pipe or cigar, so they last longer. Also, the amount of tobacco used is much less, thereby limiting the harmful effects. I agree that consideration is a big part of anything. I hate for a drunk to breathe their breath in my face, for that is not considerate of me, so I sympathise. As for a gar, I prefer the tiny rum flavored Capones, pipe tobacco, I like Capt. Black(also is a very good gar). I have never had the pleasure of smoking a really good gar..I am sure it would be a pleasureable experience.
Now,,the only unforgivable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. All others are forgivable so each one of us have to deal with these things on a personal basis, but Paul did say not to offend one another by food or drink, and I do my best to extend that to other things.. :-)
I have a dear friend that has only smoked 2 times in his life, once when he set his hair on fire with a cutting torch, and again when a roman candle projectile fired off into his coat pocket:-) He was not hurt badly by either instance other than his pride:-)

Misguided Zealots
I like to smoke a pipe. As I type this I am enjoying a nice load of "Relaxation" a fine blend from Cascade Cigar, in one of my African Meerschaum pipes. I have led a modestly adventurous life. I have been shot at with small arms, rockets, and mortar shells, and been too close to a B-52 drop zone. I was sprayed with defoliant while doing what that great liberal LBJ said that Asian boys should be doing for themselves. I have worked with toxic chemicals and explosives and commuted into a major city via motorcycle. If the most dangerous thing that I have ever faced had been the smoke from a cigar in the next booth over I would have been very fortunate (and sheltered). I have no problems with being courteous to asthmatics, and would not hesitate to put out my pipe after being given a gentlemanly or lady-like request. I think that the anti-smoking zealots come about in 2 ways. The first are those who have the insipid idea that if they can only be sheltered away from all risks that they will be immortal. Not much hope there. The others merely need to feel superior to someone else to cloak their own inferiority. Liberalism does not give them many choices here. About the only categories of people they can hate, in conformance to their ideology, are Southern whites, Christians, and smokers. I once had a professor from our local college of education complain that she had to walk past smokers to enter her building. She wanted separate smoking and non-smoking entrances declared. I suggested that we also provide separate smoking and non-smoking drinking fountains, rest rooms, and that the smokers might be required to sit in the back of the university buses. It took her a while to figure out what I had implied, and it caused her to get quite angry. Our university like most others celebrates diversity, and lauds all sorts of strange behavior, even subsidizing much of it. But, unlike other aberrant behaviors, smoking is not allowed in our public buildings on campus. Recently the blue nosed zealots on our city council banned smoking in restaurants, and later on the same ban will apply to bars. There were already numerous non-smoking restaurants for blue nosed zealots to enjoy, but they, of course, had to impose their views on everyone else, destroying freedom and property rights in the process. This is in conformance to their left wing orientation. A major socialist role model for these folks in the last century was a non-smoking vegetarian. Sadly old Adolph did not care much for the sanctity of human life. As more and more of this idiocy comes to the fore, I keep reminding my father, who served in 5 campaigns in North Africa and Europe during the Second World War, he thought he beat the National Socialists, but they are alive and well and taking over the West with alacrity.

Jack H
I know the feeling..Happened to me last night as I was making a point about Scarlett and Bush. Sucks, don't it..

GunnyG
I checked it out, I was interested in the 5 1/2"
Have you tried the smaller version?
I actually prefer the el presidente size.
But just to try them, I thought I would go cheap.

Smoking
I've been smoking 'rettes for 25 years. I started on cigars about 15 years ago. I smoke them for the relaxation and enjoyment they bring me. I smoke responsibly. Not because I feel pressured by zealot control freaks who want me to do as they please, but rather because of my own sense of consideration for others.

The cigarettes I smoke are additive-free. This does not make them healthy, though I often joke that they are chock-full of vitamins and minerals. (each one adds seven minutues to my life.) I only mention this because some posters have opined that the additives are the source of evil in the tobacco.

To the posters who want smokers removed from building entrances: I am with you. They wouldn't be so offensive, nor would they feel so victimized, if we just moved them back inside where they want to be. YOU kicked them to the "curb", deal with it.

To the poster who equated intelligence to smoking: I can't wait to share that piece of wisdom with my "idiot" friends in the MENSA smoking lounge. For the record, humans engage in a multitude of dangerous behavior on all levels of intellect.

Lastly, a quick smoking story: Several years ago, I was working in an office with a small breakroom. It was the designated smoking area. Since one of our staff was a pregnant woman I decided to go outside to smoke. (many of my co-workers didn't care). I sat at a picnic table outside the building, alone, and enjoyed my treat. Then the pregnant lady comes out and sits down with me to eat her lunch. Huh? I told her I came out there so as not to offend her with my smoke. She said my smoking wasn't nearly as offensive as the language in the breakroom. (our co-workers were arguing over smoking in the breakroom). I crushed my butt, and waited for her to finish eating and go inside.

Her baby? Finished first in state at the MHSAA track meet his senior year of High school. Yep, he was a marathon runner. Go figure.

Stenchcrime

dezmo68 writes:

> I've been smoking 'rettes for 25 years.

Whatever possessed you to start? Honest question.

When I was in junior high school, I believed (naively, in
retrospect) that mine would be the first nonsmoking gener-
ation. Why? Because all of my peers hated the sight and
smell of cigarettes. But some people were obviously "turned,"
to use an espionage term. I've always wondered how and why.

Even when I was in college, very few people I knew, or even
saw, smoked tobacco. But today, walking down Pacific Avenue
in the university town and young people's mecca of Santa Cruz,
the smell of cigarette smoke is omnipresent. So much for the
idea that young people are antismoking by nature. I'm curious
how that change came about.


> I started on cigars about 15 years ago. I smoke them for
> the relaxation and enjoyment they bring me.

The idea that smoking cigars is relaxing has come up more
than once in this thread. Dennis Prager even mentioned it
in his column. I've heard that nicotine relaxes people, and
I've heard smokers say that it makes them more alert. Which
is it? It seems to me that smokers will claim whichever one
serves their purposes at the time.


> To the posters who want smokers removed from building
> entrances: I am with you. They wouldn't be so offensive,
> nor would they feel so victimized, if we just moved them
> back inside where they want to be. YOU kicked them to the
> "curb", deal with it.

So...if someone does something that's (a) unnecessary and (b)
annoys others, and if they're removed from the company of polite
society (albeit temporarily) because of it, and if they resent
that removal...it's somehow everybody _else's_ fault? I don't
THINK so! That's a rather puerile argument.

Their being shunted outside isn't the problem. Their SMOKING
is the problem. Therefore, bringing them back inside wouldn't
be much of a solution, would it? It would only create more
resentment, and probably result in a new solution that was even
more drastic than kicking them outside was.

Smokers' being ostracized when they indulge in their habit is
_their_ fault, not the rest of society's. It isn't our fault
that they choose to commit stenchcrime, any more than it's my
fault if my neighbor makes annoying amounts of noise.


-CB-


Re: Bill: Very well said.


Solar writes:

> I have Angina [...]


I never would've guessed from your writing style
that you were a woman.


-CB-

Brother's of the Leaf
Solar-I couldn't agree more. Somehow cigarette smoking got into this and I'm not sure why? To the cigar/pipe smoker it’s all about the time, camaraderie and occasion to light up. The cigarette smoker does it to waste time waiting for a bus or to gossip out front the building. I do the majority of my smoking on MY porch or at a cigar bar enjoying the game with other people of the same cloth. Cigar smoking to me brings many people of similar backgrounds to the table for conversation and debate. When was the last time a cigarette was lit to celebrate a birth or at a wedding? Not memorable at all. My 80’s Davidoff is memorable though. Anyway, to bring cigarettes into the debate of second hand smoke is just not applicable. Most cigar smokers know the place and time for it. Your gripes are with cigarette smokers. A different breed altogether. If any cigar smokers are interested to continue the debate head over to http://www.cigarchat.net/forum/

Line should have read
Anyway, to bring CIGARS into the debate of second hand smoke is just not applicable.

Culture of entitlement
If anyone is feeling entitled and victimized on this thread it is the smokers. Please explain to me why it is non-smokers who are expected to accommodate and adapt to your nasty habit, but you should not be expected to move away from the public entrance of buildings?

Maybe what non-smokers ought to start doing is -- everytime we approach the entrance to a public building where smokers have gathered and there is no other way in, we should spray you with a super-soaker filled with cat pee. Maybe then you'd understand the objection we have to your stink getting on our clothes. But, oh, no, that would be considered assault, right? But, hey, folks, it's the same thing.

If you want to smoke at home or in your car or on the other side of the parking lot where your cloud will waft away without bothering anyone, go for it. But if you want to stand in the only public entrance to a building, then you're acting like whiny entitlement queens. Voluntarily move away from the door and there will be no need for laws requiring you to do so. Why do you have a problem with that?

RE: Stenchcrime?
CB,
Is stench a crime? If so, perhaps "breaking wind" should be outlawed. Or fragrances, bodyodor...etc...

How did I start smoking? Great question, and glad you asked. Um, it was a girl. She smoked, I didn't. I thought it was gross, and I didn't like kissing her after she smoked. However, I liked kissing. It led from there.

Honest question CB: What generation are you of? My high school had a smoking lounge for students.

The cigar/'rette relaxation/hypertention question was an excellent one. I have long asked my employees why they thought they would feel "relaxed" after smoking a cig knowing that a cigarette would give ones heart a "kick in the @ss" almost immediately. They've never given a good answer.

I have my own. It is part of the "culture of smoking". You can get away. It is similar to non-smokers having dessert. I have no craving for sweets. However, after a meal, I do desire a smoke.

To your last point, I wasn't refering to your posts, rather someone whom commented that smokers should move away from the building. We're outside. Should drinkers be out here? They may offend someone.

Shrill voices in restaurants offend me, but I don't ask them to be removed from the premises, I endure. I find shrill voices to be A)annoying and B) Unnecessary.

Smoking is not the "fault" of anyone, but society has chosen to target it, and I find it curious. Is it really THE social ill that some would have you believe? I think I've made it clear that I try not to smoke near anyone that would be offended.

Your rights, my lungs
Smoke what you want, when you want.

But your right to smoke ends where my nose begins.

Creighton Beryll --jaxstraww
-CB-
That's funny.
But like I said when it comes on,I light up and once again,Im a manly man,voi lah it's gone.() :)

jaxstraww
I agree, a bunch of whiner's showed up and missed the point of the Cigar...It's not a cigarette!

With rights come responsibilities
GunnyG writes to Sweet Lei
"So the rights of tens, hundreds, thousands of others should be impacted because ONE person has a problem with it?"

You mean, the "right" to pollute the air with toxins that hurt the health of asthmatics? Why should she be the one to move out of the way? She is not the one causing the pollution. Do you also whinge if someone infringes on your "right" to pee in swimming pools (after all, fresh urine is sterile)?

It's a very liberal idea to stress about endless "rights" and ignore responsibilities. A right to clean air takes precedence over the addictions of the weak-willed.

steve
Glad you told me of the new Steve law...
Just keep your nose out of my buss. and it won't get offended.

aurorawatcher
When I smoke, I do it away from entrances as a courtesy. I wouldn't smoke in my own house because I don't like the stench.

However
it IS a courtesy. Unless there's a law, I can do what I darn well please wherever I feel like it.

If you want me to move or put it out, ask me - NICELY. Don't be a tyrant and a dick head.

CB
Nicotine is vasodilator. More blood flow to the brain can both relax you and make you more alert.

aurora
Funny, I've been reading the bible for a couple decades now - never found your prohibition on smoking. Destroying the body is a bad thing, of course. But smoking, taken alone, is not.

Christianity is about enjoying God and His gifts to us, including, yes tobacco. It's not about a list of rules to follow.

Back Again
I must agree with the statements about offending others by smoking in their personal area being the cause of anti-smoking laws. I don't have to like the area coverage, though. Not being able to smoke in a building which others are using is one thing. Not being able to smoke in the top of a tree is another.
I must also agree that this article is about cigars, but we smokers must understand that many non smokers view tobacco smoke in any form as disgusting.
Many people view dipping or chewing tobacco as disgusting also. Many dippers view smoking as disgusting. Many smokers view dipping as disgusting. And on and on and on.
Please excuse me while I twist one up.

Speaking of Courtesy......
It raises my blood pressure and gives me a headache, to have to listen to constant cell phone use in restaurants. Maybe Steve can start a petition to outlaw cell phone use in public spaces.

For it is surely a health problem. Someones likely to get shot.

Oh please! Not again.....
drj projects:

"As for the liberal bashing which seems irrestible to some conservatives, I would simply say that the seeming inevitable turn to the topic of homosexuality in conservative discourse would be explained clearly by Dr. Freud as defensive against the obviously repressed fears of their own sexual ambivalence, which I always suspect is present just below the surface in those who revel in attempting to foist their morality ( or "family values", or "good Christianity", etc., etc. on others.

This tired and dishonest steaming pile of liberal hypocrisy and misderection never ceases to attach to someone's shoe.

The fact is, liberals have been 'foisting their morality on others' for an eternity. The dyed in the wool liberal elitist wakes each morning with an absolute assuredness of his own personal inherent elevated intellect and perfect moral posture. They're the first ones to make everyone else live act and think like they do and those who don't are regularly labeled and ostracized: "bigot, homophobe, sexist, racist, etc."

The difference? Liberals just don't use the word "morality" while doing it.

Why is that? Because they've been using that word to denigrate and demonize everyone who doesn't think like them for decades.

Believe it or not, DOC, some folks just find homosexuality repulsive. Much like liberalism.

Deal with it.

Hey Allen!
After you vomited this out onto the board:

"You guys are hi-larious. You want to mandate how people have sex"

I just wanted to ask you, who is mandating how people have sex?

Allen
The same could be said of coffee and soda drinkers as well as people who can't get through life without some form of pill.

The only reason "drug addict" is considered a bad thing to be is that crackwhores, meth addicts, cokeheads, dopefiends, and, to a much lesser extent, potheads, have given drug addiction a bad name.

The first such example of an opium fiend or cokehead giving a bad name to drug users everywhere is Ray's dead guru Sigmund Freud.

In all my psychology classes when I was getting my psych degree, the mere mention of Freud's name in class evoked universal laughter. It would reach ever loftier crescendos when we would read anything citing Freud.

Thanks for the good laugh, Ray.

Allen
I don't smoke weed because it's illegal. I WISH I were high, but for that to happen the state of California would have to legalize it first.

It's classic Christian doctrine that the purpose of humanity is to know God and to enjoy Him forever. Even if I were high, I didn't invent the concept.

Allen
You don't show any gratitude to God by checking off a list of do's and dont's. But if you do not obey Him, you do not love Him.

Our gratitude to God is principally shown by enjoying Him and appreciating all His works, from food to beer to your wife to your pals to the stars and the ocean and kids and all that. If you do it with a thankful heart knowing that God has given you these things out of His goodness, then you are showing your gratitude to Him.

Think about it. Who can give anything to God? He made everything - He owns it all. So we've been given gifts that we can never repay. We're like little kids on Christmas morning unwrapping gifts from our parents. How do we best show our gratitude to such beings?

By delighting in their gifts to the utmost.

Allen
I have been a smoker for 40 years. Started when I was 8. I come from a family of tobacco worms(my aunt's words).I smoked my first hooter when I was 15. I never took a drink until I was 18 and could legally buy it myself. From 18 years until 27 I was drunk almost every day and surely was plastered on the weekend. On Dec.31 '86 I wrecked my mother's car. Totaled it in a near head on collision. That was the 3th wreck in which the vehicle was torn up so badly they were almost unrecognizeable as a vehicle. One more was totaled but not as bad. I fell out of it at approximately 60-70 mph and rolled across a pasture. Was never seriously injured in any of the wrecks. Jan.1 '87 the Lord God delivered me from alcoholism. Completely. He did it because I did not have the will power or desire to stop. Had been court ordered to Al-Anon after spending 30 days on the parish pea farm, and the day I was released immediately got blasted. God saved me in more ways than one, and more times than once. I almost died at 7 months and several more times between the ages of 1-5.
I played music in bars for 8 years and was around it all the time,,no desire to drink. You see, in 87 I made God a promise, and I stand by it to this day and will stand by it. So even though we spout our religious drivel as some say we do, we have a promise better than any other, the promise of forgiveness by the Blood of our dear Savior, Lord, and Great High Priest, Jesus of Nazareth. No person is perfect, but most of us 'Jesus freaks' know we are forgiven and know where we are going. Can you say as much? When my body ceases to function for whatever reason I know I will be with my Lord. Can you say as much? You could because He loves you as much as He loves me or any other human. So, I smoke my cigs and love the Lord and wait.

Have a blessed man made holiday in Jesus name, Amen.

John Wayne
This thing is up to 113 comments now and I don't have time to read them all, so I hope I'm not repeating something that has already been said (but probably not). I do not smoke now, and never have, nor do I drink or do drugs, nor have I ever.

When John Wayne was filming "The Alamo" (simultaneously directing, starring in, and producing/financing) he would use a match to light his first cigarette of the day (he smoked Camel non-filters). For the rest of the day every cig he smoked was lit with the butt of the one he had just finished.

In 1965 he was diagnosed with cancer and underwent an 11 hour operation, which was successful, and he lived another 14 years until dying (of cancer) in 1979.

How much longer would he have lived if he had not smoked? Who knows? And it would have been nice to have him around longer (we could sure as hell use him around today). But he lived his life like he wanted to, had a good time and enjoyed himself, and had (and continues to have) a positive impact on millions. And I'm sure when he got to the Pearly Gates, he didn't have any problems getting in.

So I'm thinking if DP or anyone else wants to smoke then it's their business and not for some busybody to say otherwise. Is anyone going to be stupid enough to say that John Wayne was a bad person because he smoked?


Re: aurorawatcher

jerubaal writes:

> I wouldn't smoke in my own house because I don't like the stench.


It seems a bit strange that you smoke at all if you consider the
smell of cigarette smoke to be a "stench." After all, that's one
of the main reasons why many people don't even want to _try_ smoking.


-CB-


The Wisdom of Allen
.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................still waiting.

jono64a
Under your logic, we do have the right to censor what is aired on TV (vs changing the channel).

Re: Stenchcrime?

dezmo68 writes:

> Is stench a crime? If so, perhaps "breaking wind" should be outlawed.
> Or fragrances, bodyodor...etc...

I was implying that it's a crime in the moral sense, not in the legal
sense.

But since you mention it, "breaking wind" isn't something that polite,
considerate people do in the company of others. Neither is body odor
something that such people knowingly inflict on others.

However, since a "stench" is a patently unpleasant odor, the term
doesn't apply to fragrances. Some may find individual fragrances
unpleasant, but they're not inherently so, and certainly aren't
intended to be.


> How did I start smoking? Great question, and glad you asked. Um,
> it was a girl. She smoked, I didn't. I thought it was gross, and
> I didn't like kissing her after she smoked. However, I liked
> kissing. It led from there.

Interesting. You're the second person in this thread who admits to
taking up smoking despite being turned off by it. Personally, I'd
have either convinced this girl not to smoke around me, or found
another girl -- or just been satisfied with yanking my yam for the
time being. Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray.


> Honest question CB: What generation are you of? My high school
> had a smoking lounge for students.

Late Baby Boomer. My high school had a back-lawn area where people
could smoke without being hassled -- mainly, I think, because it was
out of sight (and therefore, mind) of the school administrators.
They weren't confronted with it, and so they could ignore it.

A smoking *lounge* for students seems awfully permissive even by my
own school's 1970s California standards.


> I have my own. It is part of the "culture of smoking". You can get
> away. It is similar to non-smokers having dessert. I have no craving
> for sweets. However, after a meal, I do desire a smoke.

I'm sure the interlude aspect has a lot to do with it -- stopping what
you're doing and stepping outside for a break every so often. That's
the secret behind Transcendental Meditation; there's nothing cosmic
about it. Even a retreat to the gents' with some light reading
material can be relaxing.

(Why is it the sports page with so many guys, though? What's up with
that? Why not the front section or the financial page? Personally, I
prefer the Economist. As with the New Yorker, it's such a challenge to
get through one of those before the next one arrives, I seize every
opportunity to read it that I can get.)

The smoking-after-a-meal thing is something else I've always been curious
about, as well as the custom of smoking with coffee. And smoking while
defecating, frankly. Stale smoke in public restrooms used to be a
common thing, back in the days before the indoor smoking ban. Why does
taking a dump imply having a cigarette? I don't see where one follows
from the other. Is there any insight that someone can shed on that?

Something else I've noticed is that an urge to light up is often brought
on by a change in position or location: sitting down or standing up, or
getting into or out of a car, that sort of thing. I first became aware
of this when I was sitting at the counter at a Denny's one time, back in
the days when smoking in restaurants was still allowed.

Some guy came in and took a seat down the counter, and as I watched him
look around vacantly while waiting for a menu, I thought to myself, I
just *know* this guy is going to light a cigarette. Sure enough, out
came the pack of cigarettes and the Bic lighter. It's seems to be the
default activity at times when smokers don't have anything else to do
with their hands. Maybe there's a downside to public masturbation being
frowned upon.


> To your last point, I wasn't refering to your posts, rather someone
> wh ocommented that smokers should move away from the building. We're
> outside. Should drinkers be out here? They may offend someone.

Understood, but I was one of the people who voiced that opinion. The
whole point of smokers being outside is so that no one will have to
smell their smoke, right? Well, if they congretate around the building
entrances, people will still have to smell their smoke. Therefore,
congregating near the doors defeats the purpose of smoking outside in
the first place, correct?


> Shrill voices in restaurants offend me, but I don't ask them to be
> removed from the premises, I endure. I find shrill voices to be
> A)annoying and B) Unnecessary.

Then again, shrill voices in restaurants aren't common enough that
there's a popular uprising against them like there is against smoking
in public places. If they were, I'm sure there would be. People tend
to be more tolerant of annoyances that are infrequent in nature than
they do of irritations that are veritable banes of their existence.

Besides, it's hardly unknown for restaurant patrons to make their
discomfort known to the management, who will discreetly ask the
offending party to put a lid on it.


> Smoking is not the "fault" of anyone, but society has chosen to target
> it, and I find it curious. Is it really THE social ill that some would
> have you believe? I think I've made it clear that I try not to smoke
> near anyone that would be offended.

As I said earlier, I think a lot of this is simply that many people hate
the smell, but realize that if that's all they complained about, they
wouldn't be taken very seriously. So instead, they insist that it's a
health issue. It's like the way some people will claim to be allergic
to some food or other when in reality, they simply don't like it.
Framing stuff like this as health issues pre-empts any debate by
exempting the complainer from criticism.

That's the way liberals think. Other examples of this are Cindy Sheehan
being drafted as the face of the antiwar movement ("The moral authority
of a mother who's lost a child in war is absolute." -- Maureen Dowd), and
particularly the "Witches Of East Brunswick" thing that was brought to
everyone's attention by Ann Coulter.

That being said, the smell _is_ a genuine annoyance to the majority of
the population who don't smoke, and I for one and glad I seldom have
to deal with it anymore. Certain places are downright inappropriate
for smoking, and many smokers didn't seem to grasp that. I remember
how when I was a kid, the fresh, clean smell of a supermarket would be
ruined when I'd wander into a cloud of somebody's stale cigarette smoke.
And it certainly wasn't appealing to have to smell cigarette smoke while
I was eating in restaurants or trapped in an airplane.

Face, it, smokers as a group brought all these prohibitions on them-
selves thanks to their own discourtesy. Reap the whirlwind, y'all.


-CB-

Allen is...
your typical liberal... rather than use logic, reason, and evidence, he uses emotion and hyperbole. Boring, can't any liberals think??? It sure makes it easy to ignore them when they don't bother to bring their brains to the debate. He doesn't appeared to have even read the article, since he tries to claim that Prager was endorsing cigarette smoking.

Donaldd: You're a Nut

I would love to see your evidence on your statement.
"Anti Smokers are Conservative Nuts"

Donaldd
I asked you for evidence on your subject line
"Anti Smokers are Conservative Nuts"
Also this is a column on Cigars,but it would never occur to a lib. to read the actual crux of the conversation.
Cigars are a whole different animal.
So wakeup, and take off the blinders,this is about relaxation and peace of mind.
The piece you're missing!

Donaldd
You were the one that insinuated that, and I quote
"Anti Smokers are Conservative Nuts"
Yet it is the left that were the one's,in congress that had "Big Tobacco" on trial!
Not the right.

And to your friends that inhale' They are idiot's!
You're not supposed to, the enjoyment is in the ritual, not the drug.

And to educate you, their are no additives in Cigars, so as to second hand smoke, their is no more danger than campfire smoke.
And if you're that anal, then I suggest you not partake in the fun of the out of doors, yet stay inside, where you can be safe from life the rest of us enjoy.

Smoking
Just a few facts. I have been smoking for 42 years. I am now sixty. Most of my non-smoking coevals have some kind of heart, circulatory or respiratory trouble. I swear a smoking life is worth living.
The other day my beloved aunt Paula died at 91 y. o. She smoked to the last day. The doctors said cigarettes killed her.
Doctors also said that smoking causes asthma, but the number of smokers decreased a lot in the last decade, while the number of asmathic patients in America increased four times.
Anti-tobbacco theories are a fraud, just that.
They were the first well-succeeded experiment in social control launched by WHO's illuminated social planners. Convertatives were duped to collaborate with a leftist cause that seemed politically harmless.

Donaldd
Im smokeing a Don Raphael Robusto as I write.
I chalenge you to find any kind of additive in it.
I personally do not smoke the flavored cigars.

You are the ignorant one on this subject,the tobacco is aged in a cave for 1 year and then hand rolled,this is a pure smoke.
A true coniseur of Cigars know's the facts about Cigar's, that is what this article is about.
Go back and READ, for a change!
It is the ritual of enjoying what nature/God gave us.

Donaldd
It's the drug stupid. DUH!
So is coffee,that is why I partake in both!

Reiterating
I know several public buildings in this community, incluidng the one I work in and most restaurants, that have only one public entrance. There is no way to avoid smoke if you insist upon standing in front of the door. It may not bother you to stink of cigarette smoke, but it bothers those who do not smoke, so move away from the door out of politeness and no one will need to force you legally to do what you should do just because it's the right thing to do.

jerubaal
Thank you for your consideration. And, I for one will not bother you when you are standing away from the entrance. Or if I do come over to talk to you, I will accept my own responsibility for that choice. Before my brother quit smoking in February, that was the understanding we had. He could smoke "over there" and I could breath freely "over here." It worked out quite well for both of us, although he now says he enjoys conversations not shouted from opposite ends of the deck.

However, as part of my job at this building that has only one public entrance, I am occasionally called upon to ask smokers to move away from the entrance. I think I am polite. I say please and thank you. Do you know how utterly rare it is for smokers to say "Oh, yeah, sure. I'll move." We've been in this building since February and it's happened exactly twice out of a few dozen times of having to ask people to move. The usual reply is too profane to share here.

Smoking is a lifestyle choice. It is not an entitlement or a right. As long as you choose to do it away from people who object and you don't expect others to pay for the inevitable health consequences, that's your choice. But when you stand in the doorway of a public building or in a crowd of small children at a park and puff away, you should expect people to object because what you are doing is objectionable. As the replies on this thread show, most smokers really don't care if they are infringing on other people's personal space with their smoke.

I don't like to see laws that proscript behavior, but mostly think smokers can avoid those laws if they simply voluntarily remove themselves from the breathing space of non-smokers. I don't understand why people have to make such a big deal, as if an entitlement were being taken away from them, when they're asked to do so.

Allen
You are very welcome for the response.
I am NOT your 'honey'!
I never disputed the fact that I am an addict!
Jesus,Coffee(decaf or regular,don't matter), cigerettes, TV, computer games, yadda yadda yadda:-)

aurorawatcher
Well, said. It IS a SHAME that so many people today are totally lacking their share of politeness and consideration. That was the point that is trying to be made in so many of the posts.

ALLEN: I said God delivered me from ALCOHOL and ALCOHOLISM. I never claimed to be set free from other things,,yet:-)

Addiction(off thread)
I know people that are addicted to sports, gambling, taters and gravy, you name it..That is just being human..Everyone is addicted to something.
That is why I am especially glad salvation is a gift, not something you got to work to get, cause we would all be up s**t creek without a paddle. :-)

Signs
It's beyond me why somebody could'nt put up a little sign directing people to a smokeing area.
Other than the entry or egress.
Sheesh' most people are clueless, unless otherwise instructed.
I can't stand the smell of rettes either, but if no one tell's them where they can smoke, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

So make a polite little sign, and if someone does'nt follow the directions, simply point to the little sign, and smile, you will be surprized, most will feel imbarased, and move on.

Solar
Very good point..
I remember my first and only commercial plane flight..
I debarked from Shreveport and had to change planes in Atlanta..Well, I loved the flight being a virgin at it, I was simply amazed(I always wanted to be a fighter pilot as a kid; my eyes would not allow it; no rk surgery in '76).
Well, by the time we got off the plane in Atlanta, I was needing a cig..had to smoke in this room with other smokers..it was ventilated so noone in the terminal had to partake except the smokers. If more places had smoking rooms like that it would alleviate most problems..

Non-smoking sections like non-peeing
GunnyG:

"Your analogy of smoking in the outdoors and peeing in a swimming pool is probably the dumbest thing I've read since John Kerry's insult to the troops.

"Smoking in the OPEN SPACES is A LOT more different than peeing in the pool."

And I have no problem with *truly* open spaces. But as aurorawatcher has said, sometimes the smoke concentrates near the ONLY entrance to a building, and has not had a chance to dissipate. This would be more like peeing in the only small channel that has access to the ocean on a beach.

And there is no way we should go back to the bad old days when smoking was on airplanes and enclosed rooms. The crap about "non-smoking sections" really was like non-peeing sections.

"If you don't like cig smoke, guess what, walk around them. Take another entrance. If you walk through it and it affects you guess what? That is YOUR frigging fault."

And if a group's mass peeing pee offends you, just swim around them, even if there is no other route?

DaieDaie
I know, I live in Calif. there is a town in the Bayarea, that wants to pass a law, no smokeing in the city, LOL... Like that would be constitutional.
I think it has a distant connection to the ACLU.

I brought up the sign, because I was tired of aurorawatcher whining, yet did'nt have the sense to just put up a sign,"all by her self" I would imagine it never occurs to people to take the initiative on their own.
Excuses like, I need permision from higher up,.
That's why their the flunkie's and not the boss.
It's all about taking command of a situation.
Just do it!
Thanx DaieDaie, have a happy TG.

So I'm noticing a pattern.
Comments can be about farting in someone's face, but all similes likening smoking to m*st*rb*t**n will be deleted as objectionable.

Hmm.

J

Jack H
You have come up with an excellent example of the difficulties of censorship. We all self-censor our behavior, policed by the disapproval of those around us. If one does not care, he does outrageous things, if he goes so far as to trigger great disgust in a significant number, those around him will restrict his behavior. The rub comes when society attempts to institutionalize behavior through laws enforced by professional enforcers. The rules have to be written down, the enforcers are given relatively small options of enforcement. And so when laws are compared, large and baffling paradoxes occur. Laws are passed to prevent the death of a mass murderer, but permit the medical murder of an infant during the birth process. Humans can sure enough mess things up.

Allen & Donaldd
Just a comment.

Most cigarette smokers by a wide margin are democrats.

Most cigar smokers are republicans.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, we both know republican cigarette smokers. Lots of them.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, we both know democrats that smoke cigars. My grandfather was a long time cigar smoker and democrat.

But I would love to take you both to the cleaner, figuratively. I mean, I would like to take your money in a bet on my comment about who smokes what.

It's the SMOKE, Stupid

It's been mentioned more than once in this discussion that
cigars are a "purer" smoke than cigarettes because they lack
the additives that cigarette tobacco has. I think some
mental gymnastics are being indulged in here. The lack of
additives in cigars (and in pipe tobacco and "natural"
cigarettes like American Spirits) doesn't mean they're not
bad for you. It means they're not *as* bad for you as
conventional cigarettes are.

Smoke is inherently carcinogenic, whether it's tobacco smoke or
any other sort. In Asia, where they eat a lot of smoked fish,
the highest rates of stomach cancer in the world can be found.
(Google "highest rates of stomach cancer" for many citations.)

Smoke is bad stuff, and exposure to it in any form should be
moderate...or better still, avoided whenever possible



-CB-


P.S.

Happy Thanksgiving, y'all.



Cigars and Clarity
In the interest of CLARITY..

Cigar smokers never try to convince anyone to join in to be another cigar smoker.

All a cigar smoker can do is to tell others of the simple pleasure he enjoys.

There are many simple pleasures that are a total mystery to others..

Those who do not or will not accept the idea that a fine Maduro is a simple pleasure.. so be it..

Not understanding is common..

mrhelper
But did you notice, that it was the leftie's on here that were the one's chiding us and trying to convince us of the evil's of smoking.
Typical, let us write the law's to protect us from ourselves.
Sheesh!...typical Comunist.

Smoking is natural
Smoke stinks, clings to clothes like nothing and stuffs up my nostrils.

Nevertheless, I appreciate that smoking is a natural pastime. The habit is as timeless as prostitution. That doesn't make it necessarily right, but it obviously serves a human need. As a slightly rebellious kid we often smoked pipes & cigs while playing cards. It was a serene feeling. Ah, them were the days.

Nowadays, reading a Prager article on a sunday morning over brekkie gives me the same joy that Prager gets from cigars.

Cigars andLiberals
I am amazed at the political racism that is expressed in many of these comments about cigar smoking. I am a liberal Democrat, who likes to read the comments of Republican "Conservatives" because they are generally inaccurate, and frequently inane.
I am also a long time cigar smoker whose favorite cigar is a triple T (Trinidad).
So lay it on, but to be honest, remember that John Kerry did not insult the troops, he insulted the president. I applaud him.

Re: Cigars and Liberals

Pop writes:

> I am amazed at the political racism that is expressed
> in many of these comments about cigar smoking.

What is "political racism?" I don't know of any political
parties that have a racial basis. If there are any, they
certainly haven't been mentioned here.

I get the impression that you're trying to describe some
analogue of racism that applies to political orientation,
but that you lack the vocabulary to describe it except in
terms of something else.

Perhaps the word you're grasping for is "chauvinism?" It
seems to me that the liberal side is *at least* as guilty
of that as the conservative side is. At least the conser-
vatives are willing to grant that liberals generally have
good intentions. Liberals, on the other hand, generally
believe conservatives to be evil.

In any event, how is it "politically racist" to say that
proportionately more conservatives than liberals smoke cigars?


> I am a liberal Democrat, who likes to read the comments
> of Republican "Conservatives" because they are generally
> inaccurate, and frequently inane.

Interesting; that's the same way I feel about reading the
comments of Democrat "liberals."


> I am also a long time cigar smoker whose favorite cigar is
> a triple T (Trinidad).

Yes, yes; we all know that there are liberals who smoke cigars.
The generality about cigars being a conservative habit is just
that: a generality. Obviously, where groups as large and diverse
as liberals and conservatives are concerned, there are going to
be exceptions on both sides.


-CB-


Re: Nice to See...

Jestak writes:

> "I find absurd the notion that more than 50,000 Americans are
> killed every year just by being in the presence of smokers."

> Ah, the good old argument from personal incredulity--"I just
> can't believe X, so X isn't true."


You, on the other hand, offer nothing more substantial than
argument by sarcasm -- which is really just a variant of our
old friend, _argumentum ad hominem_: "argument to the man." I
don't find that any more compelling than argument from personal
incredulity.

If Prager's argument doesn't meet your standards, then please
feel free to offer a more convincing counter-argument.

The clock, she is ticking...



-CB-


Whats DPs fav?
mine...

Indian Tabac Maduro

Prager is brain cell deficient
Mr. Prager, you fall victim to the classic blunder of many smokers that I encounter. They always point to someone - like your father - who smoked every day of their life an is now in their 80's, 90's or whatever. Fine. Perhaps that person was one of the few that are genetically blessed and have resistance to the cancer-causing properties of all tobacco products. One person does not make a trend, however.

My grandfather was not as fortunate as your father and yourself. He died of metastatic lung cancer, and he never touched a cigarette in his life. He smoked cigars. I was only 3, so I never really got to meet him.

I don't care if you continue to live in your narcissistic little dream world, but please don't spout this idiocy in your column where you might actually bring other people down with you.

Prager's tobacco cancer denials
Prager's "hysteria" denials about the link between smoking and lung cancer death rates remind me of people who deny that the Holocaust ever happened. Congratulations, Dennis...you have not only urinated on the graves of countless lung cancer victims, but you also might as well join up with the Neo-Nazis who today revere those who slaughtered your fellow Jews in WW II. I hope you get buried next to Hitler's grave when you die.
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