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Sunday, June 24, 2007
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
Valuing Speech
by George Will
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WASHINGTON -- Marriage is the foundation of the natural family and sustains family values. That sentence is inflammatory, perhaps even a hate crime.

At least it is in Oakland, Calif. That city's government says those words italicized here constitute something akin to hate speech, and can be proscribed from the government's open e-mail system and employee bulletin board.

When the McCain-Feingold law empowered government to regulate the quantity, content and timing of political campaign speech about government, it was predictable that the right of free speech would increasingly be sacrificed to various social objectives that free speech supposedly impedes. And it was predictable that speech suppression would become an instrument of cultural combat, used to settle ideological scores and advance political agendas by silencing adversaries.

That has happened in Oakland. And, predictably, the ineffable 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has ratified this abridgement of First Amendment protections. Fortunately, overturning the 9th Circuit is steady work for the U.S. Supreme Court.

Some African-American Christian women working for Oakland's government organized the Good News Employee Association (GNEA), which they announced with a flier describing their group as ``a forum for people of Faith to express their views on the contemporary issues of the day. With respect for the Natural Family, Marriage and Family Values.''

The flier was distributed after other employees' groups, including those advocating gay rights, had advertised their political views and activities on the city's e-mail system and bulletin board. When the GNEA asked for equal opportunity to communicate by that system and that board, they were denied. Furthermore, the flier they posted was taken down and destroyed by city officials, who declared it ``homophobic'' and disruptive.

The city government said the flier was ``determined to promote harassment based on sexual orientation.'' The city warned that the flier and communications like it could result in disciplinary action ``up to and including termination.''

Effectively, the city has proscribed any speech that even one person might say questioned the gay rights agenda and therefore created what that person felt was a ``hostile environment.'' This, even though gay rights advocates used the city's communication system to advertise ``Happy Coming Out Day.'' Yet the terms ``natural family,'' ``marriage'' and ``family values'' are considered intolerably inflammatory.

The treatment of GNEA illustrates one technique by which America's growing ranks of self-appointed speech police expand their reach: They wait until groups they disagree with, such as GNEA, are provoked to respond to them in public debates, then they persecute them for annoying those to whom they are responding. In Oakland, this dialectic of censorship proceeded on a reasonable premise joined to a preposterous theory.

The premise is that city officials are entitled to maintain workplace order and decorum. The theory is that government supervisors have such unbridled power of prior restraint on speech in the name of protecting order and decorum that they can nullify the First Amendment by declaring that even the mild text of the GNEA flier is inherently disruptive.

The flier supposedly violated the city regulation prohibiting ``discrimination and/or harassment based on sexual orientation.'' The only cited disruption was one lesbian's complaint that the flier made her feel ``targeted'' and ``excluded.'' So anyone has the power to be a censor just by saying someone's speech has hurt his or her feelings.

Unless the speech is ``progressive.'' If GNEA claimed it felt ``excluded'' by advocacy of the gay rights agenda, would that advocacy have been suppressed? Of course not -- although GNEA's members could plausibly argue that the city's speech police have created a ``hostile workplace environment'' against them.

A district court affirmed the city's right to impose speech regulations that are patently not content neutral. It said the GNEA's speech interest -- the flier -- is ``vanishingly small.'' GNEA, in its brief asking the U.S. Supreme Court to intervene, responds that some of the high court's seminal First Amendment rulings have concerned small matters, such the wearing of a T-shirt, standing on a soapbox, holding a picket sign and ``other simple forms of expression.''

Congress is currently trying to enact yet another ``hate crime'' law that would authorize enhanced punishments for crimes committed because of, among other things, sexual orientation. A coalition of African-American clergy, the High Impact Leadership Coalition, opposes this, fearing it might be used ``to muzzle the church.'' The clergy argue that in our ``litigation prone society'' the legislation would result in lawsuits having ``a chilling effect'' on speech and religious liberty. As the Oakland case demonstrates, that, too, is predictable.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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9th circ
the judges on the 9th circuit are not real americans and should be eliminated from the court.for you homosexuals you are not normal if you were there would be no human race.i don't care what you do in private but please don't present your self as normal like a real family.married men and woman are the only way to raise children homos and divorced woman do a poor job.

it wasn't an attack
You call that an attack, notashamed...?
I already said I like George Will. I don't usually agree with him anyway.
So he doesn't have to agree with me, for me to admire his articles.

The issue of gay people has proven to make all kinds of otherwise thoughtful people into hysterical chicken littles. I've been participating in the TH blog threads for a bit, and NOTHING generates the emotions that the subject of gay people does.

George Will is turning this episode of annoyance into a MAJOR case of free speech indictment.

And in this case, it IS a matter of minor annoyance.

But there are serious cases of slander and libel that gay people DO confront. And the threats to their professional standing, family life and education...and physical safety is NOT exaggerated.
However, THIS case that GW is citing, will run it's course, but he makes it sound like a major free speech case.

Even the 'bong hits for Jesus' case is remarkably stupid. Even the young people holding the banner, you have to admit were doing a trivial test.

But let's be honest.
There are matters of libel and slander and coercion, disguised as religious speech that does do damage out there.

And the important thing to note is the motive for speech and if damage or risk IS LIKELY.
And making distinctions between annoyances and inconveniences, as opposed to speech that is deliberate in it's aim to compromise someone's very life and freedom.

This is why even ministers need to be careful on their own about what they say.
There are recordings of ministers in church on Sunday, going into sermons on gay sex that are graphic and demeaning and inappropriate, ESPECIALLY to a mixed group of people with their children in church.

Maybe this case isn't such a big deal, and the complaint at work wasn't worth the animus that's generated.

But I can tell from experience on these discussion boards, that this is a truly misunderstood minority. And honesty about gay people is impossible, because the majority of people here do not want or care about the feelings and experiences or self knowlege regarding being gay and what it means.

Truth, honesty and compassion are the casualties, regarding this subject only.
There is no room for any of those things because the people it most matters to, are dismissed and denied exaggerated or unwelcome.

In the most profound way, and I think the few gay people and their supporters know what I mean...it's as if we were never here.


MellorSJ2, oh there
you go again with your perverse games. This time you hauled out the mimicry version, which is old hat for you. Hope your day goes better than when you posted.

Common conservative tactic
A common conservative tactic seen frequently on TH posts is to attack the poster when the poster (often a conservative) does not agree with what has been written.

Another common tactic is to blow words out of all proportion. In what way is "And where an awful lot of people lose their competence, rationality and intelligence. Even George Will" "catty"? I read it more in a spirit of disappointment.

All this happens, of course, because the posters have no argument so you just attack the writer instead. And to make absurd claims like: "I do not recall any words of Mr. Will's that said anything like that to you." To the best of my knowledge only Burt the Beard has ever joined us in the trenches.

To be frank, it probably could be said that your own words apply to you more than to the du. But that is just my opinion.

not "the Mr. Will...
I originally had written 'the columnist' and then changed it to Mr. Will, but forgot to take out the word 'the.'

du, you said
"....And where an awful lot of people lose their competence, rationality and intelligence. Even George Will."

A common liberal tactic seen frequently on TH posts is to attack the columnist when the poster (often a liberal) does not agree with what has been written. Why would you make such a catty, below the belt remark about the Mr. Will? Because his opinion writing is the opposite of what you think he should be saying? Or because you have no argument so you just attack the columnist instead? I do not recall any words of Mr. Will's that said anything like that to you. To be frank, it probably could be said that your own words apply to you more than to the columnist. But that is just my opinion.

it's not the religion
Hi Kadima...
About this subject. I usually enjoy reading George Will a great deal. I see this situation with this workplace kerfuffle as overly sensitive. What the GNEA said WAS insensitive, not just to gay headed families.
Often the consensus here is that biological, nuclear families are the ideal, and it SEEMS as if it's at the expense of the other ways that couples form and children are raised in NON biological, nuclear family situations.
However, I don't consider what the GNEA's message said THAT big of a deal and the gay woman who took offense really didn't need to take the action she did.

However, I am studying closely what reactions an article about gays and lesbians will cause.

The usual things are said, the same words and references...it's like autopilot. The material is already written and set, so that there isn't to be any challenge to religious beliefs or references.

What I've been trying to do is caution the group here on historical context to those beliefs...and how civil laws, rationalized with religious beliefs has been used before...with great detriment.

It's not the religion that's the problem. But the use of it against persons bearing a SINGLE characteristic that's different.
A single one.

And it's enough to raise such dangerous hackles and loss of rationality in people.

It's a familiar reaction. Maybe not to some people here because THEY don't belong to any groups or were around when peole reacted the same way before when an otherwise silent minority, started speaking up for itself.

That gay people are occasionally annoying with what seems like a trivial issue. Like this one.

But most people on these threads have decided they are the master experts on gay people, homosexuality and the motives and abililities of gay people.

You are not saying anything at all unique. And what you're doing is VERY familiar. Extremely familiar.

Other groups have been spoken of the same way. No ambiguity and with the same religious certainty.
And ultimately they were wrong.

It's easy to see, if the religious principle were being applied consistently and correctly...the power structure wouldn't bear the same homogenous faces. Even here in America.

It's well known that religion in the wrong hands, is a dangerous weapon. And it's easiest wielded against the vulnerable.
It's easy to say gay people are in defiance of YOUR religion, rather than you being in defiance of the humanity and identity of gay people that came from the same place as yours did.

I already see huge mistakes repeating themselves for the same reason.

Well, at least most human progress has been quick...this is the ONE subject is moving so slowly. And where an awful lot of people lose their competence, rationality and intelligence. Even George Will.

Mellorsj2
Aren't we having a rational discussion? We just disagree. Try to get your mind around the idea that this is a bus stop. We are leaving soon and we have one shot at getting the right ticket to the right destination. Why should stubborn defense of 'inherent' qualities keep you out of heaven. If you prove it's biological is it then any more acceptable? Alcoholism is biological does that make it acceptable to practice? I've heard your argument before. What bothers me about it is that sexual expression becomes a god. The first chapter of Romans describes it very well. When a person values their rules more than God's rules, it's called sin. That's why free speech is so important. I have moral convictions based on the Bible. I didn't write them I'm just trying to obey them, but I don't want to be told by anyone in America that i can't believe, or think or say that God says sexual immorality is sin. Worse than that is losing the dialogue with anyone who struggles sexually...porn, adultry etc...because it is a prison. Jesus came to set the captives free they are free indeed.


I would love it if you believed everything I just said, but I'm happy just to live in a country that protects free speech so i can say it.

Georgetwin
As one who lives here I can attest to that. They are nothing but a bunch of drug addicted, narcissitic, commie pinko scum.

as the flash and others have
pointed out.

NONE of the GNEA or GLB activity belongs in any work place, let alone government offices.


To N/A:
You wrote (1):
"However with an overall divorce rate of over 50% for “Natural” marriages, if I was gay,
I wouldn’t let any group with such a failure rate meddling in my business. In African American families the failure rate for nature family and marriage is even higher."

True, the institution of marraige is in a sad state of affairs in the black communities. Not surprising, given 40 plus years of government subsidies for bad behavior (welfare checks for illigitimate children, and no penalty assessed or even attempt to find the father), which is the liberal solution to all problems, throw other people's money at it. Now we have a group of black women trying to reverse that trend, and bring respectability back into marraige, and the gay mafia attacks them.

N/A also wrote (2):
"Gay marriage is not the issue that threatens the natural family, it the horrific failure rate of these natural marriages. As for the person filing the complaint, she should take into account gay marriages are more successful than heterosexual marriages and just laugh at the BS."

Just exactly how do you define "sucessful" gay marriages? By economic status? Without struggling to raise a family, provide for their emotional and physicial development, and then pay their college tuitions, of course they are more "sucessful". They get to keep all their money and spend it on themselves. They also can cheat on each other without ever getting pregnant, or getting someone pregnant to invite them to a Morrie Povich moment.

N/A also wrote (3):
"I presume GNEA is using tax payer equipment and tax payer paid time to promote their activities and agenda. That should end and such activities take place on GNEAs own time and paying their own expenses."

Fair enough, but what is good for the goose should be good for the gander, and GLBT forums should also be removed from government (e.i taxpayer) use.

It goes beyond gay issues
Last Saturday in LA's Crenshaw district, local black leaders staged a legal and with all of the proper permits anti-amnesty march IN THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD. When non-permited counter marchers flooded the public park of destination and threatened violence, the police arrested the LEGAL marchers. No, this is not a misrepresentation of what happened. I have the LA Times story linked at my blog. The PC crowd have suc a fix in the system that illegal aliens who have no formal rights can still trump citizens who DO have constitutional rights from exercising their right of free speech, even in their own neighborhood.

Bottom-Line
The Bay Area is a Toilet Bowl. The 9Th Circuit is the Handle. This case is Fecal Matter. Liberals are The Rectal Opening that supplies The Fecal Matter.

Well said 4bear
THE SIN OF SILENCE


When they took the 4th Amendment away
I was quiet because I didn't deal in drugs...
When they took the 6th Amendment away
I was quiet because I had never been arrested...
When they took the 2nd Amendment away
I was quiet because I didn't own a gun...
Now they have taken the 1st Amendment away
and all I can do is be quiet...

The seek to disarm us and silence us so they may continue with their socialist/elitist agenda. We the People are the "Ultimate Authority" of Our Country, not the government. They twist and pervert the Constitution and trample on the Bill of Rights as though they do not exist. The time is now for We The People to take back Our Country. We are their masters, they are are servants, not the other way around.
You are either free or you are a slave, I prefer Freedom!!
Molon Labe!!!

One of the reasons it's impossible...
..to hold a rational discussion is that a good number of you don't listen. For example, Kadima writes: "You are bitter so you want Kathy's grandchildren to struggle sexually so you can feel vindicated?" when I had written "For the record, I don't wish that on them. I hope for their sake that they are straight and never have to see the dark side of their grandmother."

Then we have me saying "Get your head out of the @ss, solo, and get your mind around this: When Kathy's grandchildren grow up, they will have an inherent sexuality. They may choose to act on that sexuality or remain celibate."

and solo610 writes: "Don't you mean they will choose their sexuality and whether or not to remain celibate? If homosexuality is not a choice then there would be no such thing as an ex-gay person."

No I do not mean anything of the sort. My words were clear: _inherent_ sexuality and _choose to act_. Why would you change these words to suit your prejudices?


San Francisco
I guess they were acting so much like San Franciso, I got confused.

Words Like Bullets
From time to time they get ahead of their timetable and silly mistakes are made by the vanguard of the secular progressive humanist cultural revolutionaries (the elected government of San Francisco being a prime example.) Assuming power they have not quite secured to themselves yet, they suffer minor rebukes and are told no, even after first hearing yes from their benefactors in the 9th District. A little friction along the way heats things up and it is a good thing that these mistakes are made. But, how hot will it get?

When the power of government fails the inalienable rights of the individuals, when the power of government is turned against the individual, and the courts fail to use their powers to protect the individual from the tyranny of government, the individual withdraws their permission to be governed. When sufficient numbers of people loose all hope of finding redress through their government, it is not long before the Tree of Liberty is watered. This is why tyrants want to take the two keys to liberty away from the free and the brave, their power of free speech and their power of self defense.

Tyranny is easy to spot, as it works hard at removing these two powers of a free people and gives itself away. Hence, the government of San Francisco, California, and the 9th District court use their immense power to shut the mouths a few righteous black women seeking to express their time honored, cherished, religious convictions. All in the name of protecting sodomites from any inner conviction, shame or self loathing that may be stirred by the testimony anyone’s Christian or Biblical beliefs.





N/A
It isn't up to the city of Oakland to decide who has the 1St Amendment Rights and who doesn't. Good grief, you liberals are so predictable -totalitarians all of you.

PC police use intimidation
to silence critics. (You know who you are).

"In society today, it seems that people are so concerned about hurting people's feelings. We're worried about being labeled as judgmental if we speak up about something that we don't think is right.

It's better to just live and let live; leave people alone. Who are we to judge anyway -- we're not perfect. What business do we have to go telling people what's right and what's not. The only rules in life are the ones you create for yourself, as long as you don't hurt anyone else.

With public sentiment like that, it's no wonder that we're afraid to say too much when we see people doing things that we don't agree with. If we do say something, we're not P.C.

Well, quite frankly, that's all a load of garbage as far as God is concerned! God thinks just the opposite when it comes to behavior that is sinful. He says we are to speak up about that without any fear! Not that we want to go around without any tact or without the right motivation or love, but God says:

DON'T BE AFRAID TO CONFRONT SIN
Because of Its Infectious Nature
Because You have the Support of God Himself"

And then this -- (from a different source)

well, before I go there, I just want to caution those of you who are tempted to erupt in vile vulminations against my final quote below: you must know (whether your consciences are dead or not) that YOUR SAYING God does not exist should only prove TO YOU that He does. Because it's the way you say it: it is a truth that no one fumes and rages against an imaginary Being. And it is no surprise that you hate Christians because your real beef is with God Himself and since you can't get to God directly you attack Him through His people. This is very old stuff. Been goin' on a long time.

This is where I was going:

"We reject any misuse of the term love to condone behavior contrary to God's Word."

That statement is like a plumb line, if you will, alerting us to God's attitude about the seriousness of sin -- with the purpose of warning us, convicting us, and preparing us to receive God's free forgiveness in Jesus.

You are absolutely free to reject it. God won't coerce you. But there are eternal consequences to rejection -- eternal separation from God. In which case the only taste of heaven you'll ever have is that which you experience on earth.

Thank you for "Valuing Speech," George Will.








In response to N/A
N/A wrote:

"If a gay group was protesting you in front of your home 24/7, you would be screaming to have their free speech removed as well as their bodies. Many of these anti-gay groups have expressed the desire to do disrupt gay free speech and commit physical harm to gay individuals. That is why they are kept in a "free speech zone"."

This group is not protesting in front of homosexual's homes 24/7, they are doing it at a specific event at a specific time. And as far as physical harm goes, quoting from the article I read in the newspaper(St. Petersburg Times), "Last year, some festival participants retaliated by throwing beads and drinks at a group of about 10 protesters." So, it's actually the homosexuals committing physical acts against those whose speech they disagree with.

The point I was making was that by confining people to an area away from the main event, they are denying them equal opportunity to express their viewpoints, something liberals criticize conservatives(especially as of late in talk radio)of doing all time. Am I to gather than that you would support a free speech zone for African-Americans to protest a KKK rally?



I'm with
waking up the sleeping giant!! Christians, we need to put on our armor and fight for Christ against the devil who has been so successful that there are newsletters for "homosexual christians" speaking about putting on the armor of Christ! They are so deceived. How many times must we remind one another that it is not the sinner that is hated, but the sin. Homosexuality is a cross like so many other crosses to bear in life. Groups like Courage have the truth within and live a celibate life. Not only is not having homosexual sex denying them their true identity--it is empowering them to truly know their identity. Homosexuals who give in to their unnatural urges (thereby not picking up their cross to follow Christ) are doing groups like Courage a disfavor.

Christians. We are a sleeping giant in this country--if we do not stand up quickly and fiercely (not violently) but assertively--we will soon be giving up every freedom that our forefathers gave their lives for.

Someone above posted about another Civil War. That is dead on. Our country can never be united on issues such as abortion and homosexuality because the truth stands above all manner of deception. It cannot be silenced. But we must act. We must continue to voice our opinions, to write to our senators and congressmen, to vote for those candidates (if there are ANY to be found) who would continue to defend the RIGHT TO LIFE that was convoluted into some crystal ball "privacy" clause. We need to speak the truth. That includes standing up to each and every poster here who is deceived by the devil and has no clue of his/her deception. Those of us who have been blessed with faith and grace must be the voice of reason.

Mellorsj2
You are bitter so you want Kathy's grandchildren to struggle sexually so you can feel vindicated? You enjoy knowing Kathy won't sleep at night? Are you an accurate representation of a homosexual mind because it isn't very loving. Why would you say those things? If g/l are so far superior to 'normal' people why are they always so bitter?

I have a gay brother and I've met many of his friends. The lifestyle isn't typically monogamous. It seems to thrive on sexual encounters.My brother is bitter and angry. He, like you, would love to see one of my children choose homosexuality. It's a meanspirited position which doesn't reflect well on the homosexual community. It reveals a deeper conviction, if you would use homosexuality as a curse for someone elses child aren't you judging your own behavior? You the homosexual, must not be comfortable with it if you use it as a weapon. You blame others for not accepting your choice but maybe it's you who really doesn't accept it.

My child's elementary school hosted 'gender bender day' this past year. I kept her home from school. If I complain she might get targeted. It's pitched as a fun, lighthearted event. I don't see it that way. I see it as a recruitment technique. It's a way to intoduce sexual confusion. I told all my kids (this wasn't the first time) that the Bible says that "God created them male and female." There is no reason to be confused.

Let's say one of my kids chose not to honor God with their lifestyle...it's their choice. Choice isn't supreme, God is. Choosing it doesn't sanctify it. Even if they make unwise choices God still loves them and they can always repent and be in right relationship with God again. Jesus made it very easy for us. We're the ones that complicate everything.

A tree is known by it's fruit.

America's Decline
What has happened to the American Family and Family values?

Just look to laws like VAWA for the answers to that.

With the divorce rate approaching 55% for 1st time marriages and 85% for second marriages, people do not want anything to do with marriage and having children anymore. You can thank the feminist movement and no fault divorce for the divorce rates and the craeation of the gay community and the demise of the America Family.

Notice to men and women: Do not become a sperm donor to gay/lesbian couples. You will end up paying child support! That is the law now!





Solo610, actually I was referring to
MellorSJ2 comments to you, although I did detect a different tone with you when this poster would attack you (MellorSJ2's modus operandi.) The same exact thing happened to me(I believe I am much older than you!) and I was not proud of it. I finally chose not to play the game and get trapped in the web of ugliness that posters like this so often seem to draw perverse pleasure from.

Please,do not 'retire' from the Townhall forums. Voices such as yours, and the questions you have posed on other columns, have been a wonderful addition. I have enjoyed reading many of your posts and I believe another poster(Drew) echoed that same thought when he was discouraged with the ugly atmosphere following Matt Barber's recent column. I also believe you and a few other posters were communicating back and forth without names, invectives, and insults being hurled.

Personally, I question apologizing to MellorSJ2 given my own experience with him/her. But you took the high route and did. Unfortunately, I would doubt that it actually did much good. Many posters just stop interacting with posters who are so angry and ugly. There are some who agree and then post in a semi-flirtatious manner, ganging up on other posters (so to speak.) As many posters have pointed out, tolerance from radical homosexuals (or even some pro-homosexuals)is only ONE way and it is theirs. Just once I would like homosexual TH posters to be honest, to stop hiding behind the word gay (which does not mean homosexual) and acknowlege this. But that would mean looking at the truth.

not ashamed
Same goes for Solo610. It would not surprise me to hear you say, "Well they started it." To which I would say, "Perhaps they did, perhaps they did not. Either way grow up and rise above it."

In hindsight your are correct. It is easy to be drawn into the mud slinging and everything else that goes on. Whenever someone makes a statement like you just did i am reminded of several verses from Proverbs that let me know im way out of line.

Mellor: I apologize to you if i offended you, im going to have to retire from TH for a little while. This place is getting kind of ugly anyway.

Not Ashamed: It stings when someone points these things out and you know they are right, but i can accept it and believe ill be better for it. Thanks.

Mellor
Get your head out of the @ss, solo, and get your mind around this: When Kathy's grandchildren grow up, they will have an inherent sexuality. They may choose to act on that sexuality or remain celibate."

Don't you mean they will choose their sexuality and whether or not to remain celibate? If homosexuality is not a choice then there would be no such thing as an ex-gay person.

Yeah im sure im the dark side because i promote abstinence vice pre-martial sex. Im the dark side because i believe in God and the Bible, and believe that homosexuality is wrong. How evil of me....Maybe i should drop the Bible thing and subscribe to a policy of moral relativism, then i can tell my kid that nothing is really wrong per se, its all relative. No thanks. You can keep your homosexuality and your tolerance doctrine for all things not Christian, ill keep my Bible. Just do me a favor, stay away from the kids.

MellorSJ2, in the past I have
gotten involved in your perverse posting games, but will no longer do so. I would advise other posters to do the same. There is no reason for posters to take this forum into the sewer, yet each and every time you post (and others fall prey to your manipulations) it happens. I clearly recognize that you are not the only poster to behave in a similar fashion.

Your tiresome insults, disrespect and name calling (including screen names) belong in another forum (preferably inside your own mind.)
ALL TH posters (including you) have the right to express an opinion without being attacked, insulted, condescended to, made fun of, and disrespected. For example, there are many times that I do not agree with Kathy, but I do respect her right to speak out without ugly, vitriolic attacks from you. Same goes for Solo610. It would not surprise me to hear you say, "Well they started it." To which I would say, "Perhaps they did, perhaps they did not. Either way grow up and rise above it."

Mellor
Actually, no, I don't think they should experiment. And no, I don't know any adults who would "guide" them (and those adults would be, by definition, irresponsible.)"

Oh you mean like all the adults involved with that trans gender prom in Mass? Why don't you check out some of the blogs and articles written by some of the people WHO WERE THERE. There were plenty of gay adults mingling with the kids at their youth pride parade. Although the cases of adult/teen/kid sexual relations were mostly limited to Man/Boy vice Woman/Girl. Pride parades are a pedophile candy shop. Mellor i really do not care if you are gay. If you want to have sex with another man, why should i want to stop you. I believe its wrong, but God gave us free will and you can do with yours whatever you like. My problem is the homosexual agenda will not stay out of the schools. I don't suppose you have seen the aftermath of children who grow up in homosexual households? You think that has no negative impact on them? Try meeting someone who has counseled these youth. The thing that makes it worse is that we have these people telling kids its ok to experiment, and at the same time trying to silence religion as hate speech. Tolerance means that you allow those you disagree with to speak their mind. The homosexual community wants to see Christianity silenced and in the same breath asks for tolerance of gays? Give me a break.

Courts have better things to do
This is an issue that should never have made it to the court system. It is frivolous.

Liberty
To the left EVERYONE that disagrees with them are a NEOCON so if that is my label then so be it.

Silly silly solo
writes, in regard to Kathy's grandchildren: "Maybe they should experiment huh? Im sure you know a few responsible adults who could guide them. ...Give me a break..."

Actually, no, I don't think they should experiment. And no, I don't know any adults who would "guide" them (and those adults would be, by definition, irresponsible.)

Get your head out of the @ss, solo, and get your mind around this: When Kathy's grandchildren grow up, they will have an inherent sexuality. They may choose to act on that sexuality or remain celibate.

Unfortunately, growing up in Kathy's household (and no doubt Kathy's daughter (was it?)), if they are gay they will suffer horribly. They will have been taught to hate themselves and they will not be able to talk to their beloved grandmother about their condition because of their fear of rejection. They may possibly even commit suicide.

For the record, I don't wish that on them. I hope for their sake that they are straight and never have to see the dark side of their grandmother. I wouldn't wish being gay, even in 2007, on anyone so long as people like Kathy (and you) are around.

OTOH, I _love_ the idea of Kathy getting a few sleepless nights wondering....

Silly silly solo
writes, in regard to Kathy's grandchildren: "Maybe they should experiment huh? Im sure you know a few responsible adults who could guide them. ...Give me a break..."

Actually, no, I don't think they should experiment. And no, I don't know any adults who would "guide" them (and those adults would be, by definition, irresponsible.)

Get your head out of the @ss, solo, and get your mind around this: When Kathy's grandchildren grow up, they will have an inherent sexuality. They may choose to act on that sexuality or remain celibate.

Unfortunately, growing up in Kathy's household (and no doubt Kathy's daughter (was it?)), if they are gay they will suffer horribly. They will have been taught to hate themselves and they will not be able to talk to their beloved grandmother about their condition because of their fear of rejection. They may possibly even commit suicide.

For the record, I don't wish that on them. I hope for their sake that they are straight and never have to see the dark side of their grandmother. I wouldn't wish being gay, even in 2007, on anyone so long as people like Kathy (and you) are around.

OTOH, I _love_ the idea of Kathy getting a few sleepless nights wondering....

SC Neocon Pride
Why is that you think you are a neocon, rather than a conservative?

The American Left
This is just another example of the American left operating like Nazis in ACLU clothing.

We are afraid
As a conservative on fiscal issues and liberal on some (very few) social issues I can tell you that we as conservatives are afraid to be labeled, so it is our own fault that these groups run roughshod over our rights. We have no one other then ourselves to blame. What we need to do is what the left has done, embrace the labeles we have been given, I mean really stick it their faces and down their throats. I will be changing my nick to SC_NEOCON_PRIDE.

Wow, Sedonaman
That link is amazing.

At one time , it would have been considered a work of fiction so unbelievable that no one would have printed it.

Now it's a sign of the current times in the UK, and our own future if we don't watch out.

Excellent link. Kudos!

"Your horse is gay" gets you the slammer
In a society where violent crime gets scant attention from the authorities, a violation of British hate speech laws gets you surrounded by police in a matter of minutes followed by a night in the pokey. This is what happened to a college student who merely asked a mounted police officer, "Excuse me; did you know your horse is gay?"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/06/14/do1402.xml

Speech as fad
Limiting a person's freedom of speech because someone else might be offended says much more about the strength of convictions of the one offended than the offender. Changing the parameters of so-called 'hate speech' every time mainstream ideas seem to conflict with some ersatz or even viable viewpoint can only lead to chaos.
In the workplace as in all venues if one side is allowed to be heard than all sides must be heard. You may not force me to listen but in general I may not force you to shut up.
'Hate speech law' is an abomination and can only work to cheapen and finally destroy all free speech. It is nothing but a tool of overbearing socialism.
Check out the United Kingdom where the telling of a funny ethnic joke can send a 'Subject' to jail; or Canada and elsewhere where ministers have been arrested for reading from the Christian Bible; or California where all mention of family values in school textbooks is seen by the liberal state government as to be hate speech and a fit subject for new suppressive law.
Who has never offended or been offended by the use of free speech? How dull and vacant indeed an America without our age old and passionate explosion of diverse ideas; and the freedom to love or hate them at the top of our voices!

free speech, I'll give ya free speech
Funny how George Will gets his knickers in a knot over some minor free speech incident when he was all for the King George's secret wire tapping of our phones and intercepting private US citizen emails. Now that is a real violation of your rights and a danger to free speech.

ex-tex,it was a 'right to privacy' under
Amendment IV
(Pivacy of the Person and Possessions)
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


****************
seems many 'interpretations' of this amendment exist.



ya know, my original post to you simply stated that straight blind support of either party did every citizen a disservice - We now have open borders, a man who thinks he's king, and a populace at each other's throats.


Mellor
MellorSJ2 writes: Sunday, June, 24, 2007 12:46 PM
Let's see what happens...
Kathy writes: "they have two wonderful children, a boy and a girl, ages 5 & 7."

And their orientation? We'll know in a few years."

Maybe they should experiment huh? Im sure you know a few responsible adults who could guide them. ...Give me a break...

marie..
The phrase 'strict constructionist jurist' is generally taken to mean a jurist who STRICTLY adheres to THE WORDING of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

As an example- Roe v. Wade was based on the constituitonal "right" to an abortion. This "right" of course does not appear anywhere in the Constitution. The (much more liberal than the american electorate) Supreme Court found this right under "persuit of happiness" I beleive. Anyway...

A strict constructionist would find no such "right" to abortion. Thereby allowing each individual state's laws to stand. This does not mean that the Court would outlaw abortion- simply that laws- often voted on by the electorate themselves would not be overturned by activist judges.

Also, the seperation of church and state appears nowhere in the constitution. What does appear is "congress shall make no law" that abridges the right to religion.

,When shall we fight...,
when we are bound hand and foot. Heaven forbid. I know not what course others may take, but as for me give me liberty or give me death.

My recommendation to the left, DUCK SUCKER.

Kathy
As A. Lincoln said something like, "If a dog's tail is a leg, the dog has four legs!"

Let's see what happens...
Kathy writes: "they have two wonderful children, a boy and a girl, ages 5 & 7."

And their orientation? We'll know in a few years.

Valuing Speech
I am absolutely appalled that we have allowed reverse discrimination against those who are faith bound, and in this case, another minority group - African-American Women. I wonder who made the decision to revoke the GNEA's ability to publicly post what they thought was a reasonable offering to others that shared the same values, i.e. was this person Gay? I am a native born Californian, but I am embarrased to say so based on what continues to surface from this state concerning the rights of the people - or mis-guided rights for a polticially select few. I am all about fairness, but to surpress the same freedom of speech rights afforded to Gays from an organization like GNEA indicates that we are heading into darkness.

Insighting Truth
Your examples for Brujo are hilarious. What left-wing advocacy groups propose to have the government do is PRECISELY the same thing. Forcing businesses to bend to the will of those who choose to view gay partnerships as marriage. Forcing those who oppose the destruction of embryos for stem cell research to support it through their tax dollars. Forcing those who choose to harbor certain thoughts to break the law to do so.

Government forces people to do things. Any government "solution" is a matter of force. Moreover, your singling out of religious views as the only ones that are not shared by everyone is about as absurd as it gets. ALL uses of force by the government are prompted by the intention of one group to force everyone to do something everyone didn't have the prior intention to do. If the prior intention were there for everyone, it wouldn't take government force to coerce it.

Regardless of what you advocate government putting its force behind, you are taking an arbitrary position. Having comfort in the number of people you think agree with you makes you no different from anyone else. Government policies ARE arbitrary, no matter whose views animate them.

ex-tex
"And, I'll go s l o w l y here ONLY REPUBLICANS APPOINT STRICT CONSTRUCTIONIST JURISTS!"

I'm happy you are so s l o w.

perhaps you can provide 'your' definition of 'CONSTRUCTIONIST' - as that lib commie Webster's dictionary defines it as simply 'a person interprets, or believes in interpreting, a law, document etc. in a specified way.

be careful - you might get exactly what you wished for

allen- I won't wait on that witty remark
but food for your liberal thought- One man's trash is another's treasure. My treasure lies in God, Country and family. And definitely NOT in the Democrat party.

Why should churches pay taxes?
If churches are made to pay taxes, the members will actually be the ones paying, and aren't they paying through the nose as it is? Most churches are doing a lot of good for members and nonmembers alike.

Prohibition....wasn't that a government action? Did the church possibly advocate for it, most likely, but I don't think they are the ones who forced it on the population. Many of those who started temperance leagues had personal problems with the use of alcohol. I have not had any experience with blue laws--could you explain them and how they affect us today.

Kindly remember that there were people who were willing to oppose Puritanical actions by the government, and they had the right to do so. What the left is trying to do now is suppress opposition. Anybody with a strong position does not have to engage in such tactics.

Also, Allen, you seem a bit upset. Maybe you should tell us about it.

Marie,the laws WE THE PEOPLE make...
in good faith ARE NO GOOD when overturned in the hands of a Liberal, ACLU, "tyranny of the one" driven court which overrules them.

If you care at all about a country 'by the people' and 'for the people' than you must have Strict Constructionist Justices.

And, I'll go s l o w l y here ONLY REPUBLICANS APPOINT STRICT CONSTRUCTIONIST JURISTS!

The point Brujo:
Specifics are not necessary. Think blue laws, forcing businesses to bend to the will of those who choose to pay homage to a sabbath day. Think tax-exempt status for churches, forcing non-members to support infrastructure for members. Think prohibition, forcing those who choose to use certain substances to break the law to do so.

What are all these city employees
... doing, wasting our tax dollars on advocacy for their personal agendas?

Shut up, all of you, while you're on the city's dime. Advocate on your own time.

Free Speech Zone
At next weekend's Pride Parade in St. Petersburg, FL
people who wish to demonstrate against the event and homosexuality will be confined to a "free speech zone", which will be away from the main parade area. Those who chose to do so outside of this area will be subject to fines and possible arrest. Funny, I thought all of America was a free speech zone.

Not just our courts but our government
It was earlier posted, and many have sung along this old saw: "The un-elected judicial branch of government has the final say on what the law is and we have to take advantage of that the way the Left has."

First off, I think the city of Oakland wrong in their finding GNEA's flyer fell under EEOC prohibition against on harassment based on sexual orientation, and the 9th Circuit wrong for affirming that decision. If GNEA was simply promoting their values and if others can so should they be able to as a matter of equal treatment under the law.

But it ought to be clear the problem is not just with the court but with government in general.

In this case it was the city of Oakland's interpretation of Executive Order 13087 that added sexual orientation to the EEOC statement derived from the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978.

Will adds as additional examples McCain-Feingold and the fact that "Congress is currently trying to enact yet another 'hate crime' law that would authorize enhanced punishments for crimes committed because of, among other things, sexual orientation."

So the old saw about judicial activism is out of tune with today's activism in the legislative and executive branches both from the left and, following suit, from the right with today's big government social "conservatism".

Conservative groups equivalent to the ACLU include United States Justice Foundation (USJF) and Pro-Family Law Center who represented the plaintiffs in their lawsuit against Oakland.

To do what the left does is to become liberal when what we need to do is conserve, limit and dismantle federal intervention in our lives.

"Remember that a government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take away everything you have." --Barry Goldwater

Freedom of Speech
must equal the freedom to offend, otherwise it's meaningless.

All Rise!

The Ninth Circus Court of Appeals is now in session!

Check your rights at the door!

Step forth and be heard! Within limits, of course.....

Homsexual totalitarianism
Totalitarianism is the form of government that controls free thinking, freedom of speech, religion, press and conscience and impose a state-based ideology with not room to dissent supported by law. This is what is happening in Oakland. In this case the city of Oakland is the totalitarian government which stripped Christians from their constitutional rights according to the Bill of Rights. The city of Oakland used the court to make “legal” totalitarianism and censorship, only against Christians, and only in favor of homosexuals.

The question is who appointed the board of the City of Oakland and who appointed that Judges in the 9th circuit? If the people of Oakland do not fight for their constitutional rights, then the case in Oakland will have legal repercussions in California and all over America. The homosexual lobby is busy everyday advancing its totalitarian ideology and abridging the rights of Christians to practice freely their faith.

Again, this is another example how political correctness is a tool of censorship and thought control. The phrase “equal opportunities” is just a speech code to undermine Christian values. If equal opportunities were actually equal opportunities, then Christian would be not harassed by homosexuals and would practice their faith with not restrictions.

Christians should be not told by any government office let alone by homosexuals, what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Particularly in the terms of morality, the Christian faith is clear in the fact that family is limited to a man and a woman, and not between men and men or woman and woman. This is the plan of God according to the bible. And this is the morality under which America was founded: the Judeo- Christian morality.

Shame on the city of Oakland for being politically correct driven and impose a totalitarian form of government on Christians, shame on the 9th circuit court for allowing that the rights of Christians be violated, and shame on militants homosexuals whose bigotry and intolerance against Christians is more important than the rule

no, Robert E Lee
just insist that 'hate crime' be fairly applied to all. In essence, to do otherwise implies that the rest of us want or deserve to be robbed, beaten, raped, and murdered.

A Note of Optimism
RE: "... the terms ``natural family,'' ``marriage'' and ``family values'' are considered intolerably inflammatory."

Mr. Will's point here is valid, but it seems implicitly pessimistic. What he should have written is that such terms are only "intolerably inflammatory" among the Left.

Among clinically normal people, these terms are the salient hallmarks of humanity's highest aspirations.

I Call Upon All Real
Americans and Christians to disobey any and all so-called "hate crimes" legislation, publicly, loudly, and often! By sheer numbers, we'll simply overwhelm the judicial system should the Left decide to enforce such ideological jibberish.

Babies on the left
I had the same thoughts Brujo--what rights have the "religious right" restricted? Is it those darn laws against murdering, stealing, etc?

As far as some on the left, I have to shake my head in wonder when I hear them talk about things making them feel "excluded." Can you imagine anything more immature and ignorant? If one of my kids is not invited to a birthday party that the other kids are all going to be attending, they will probably feel excluded. Does this mean I better get on the phone and call up the parent of the birthday kid and try to strong arm an invitation? Should I get an injunction against the party? NO...I am going to tell my kid that sometimes these things happen and they need to deal with it.

Why does it seem that so many on the left have some kind of arrested development? They act like little kids on the school playground!


there are a few 'churches' out there
that, at least to to me, are 'suspect' - eg. Scientology. Suspect in the sense that the 'tax exempt' status seems to be a paramount consideration.


"IRS routinely uses tax laws to restrict the content of sermons in churches. IRS has gone so far as to come up with their definition of what a preacher is."

A church can certainly preach anything they want - the 'tax exempt' status is all that is contingent upon existing law.


You reap as you sow. What?
Whenever I read a criticism of the religious right I never see a definition of the religious right. Whenever I read comments about the religious right restricting the rights of others there is never a specific example.
learned by watching.

The religious right is also accused of "using the same force to impose their peculiar values on the unwilling majority. Just what are those peculiar values. Marriage, truth, and follwing the ten commandments. The Nazis used the same criticism to go after the Jews.

I continually hear the left propose draconian ways to control people. The latest situation that we will have to contend with is the "Fairness Doctrine" Now if there ever was a law to force others to give up freedom that is it. One college and/or university after another engage in extreme measures to restrict freedom of speech on campus and this includes the public institutions. Several public institutions have imposed restrictions on students regarding personal off-campus activities.

??????? ex-tex
"Which of course only means the WE THE PEOPLE can make the laws, rather than the ACLU."

Great, so now we have Exxon/Enron writing energy laws and Halliburton writing our Defense/Security policy.

NO - to vote straight GOP or Dem destroys the voters' only power. Both parties are owned by the same corporations and special interests. The only way to wake any of them up is to vote out every incumbent often enough to force them realize they work for US.

Restrictions and the law
I have noticed that the bill of rights which identifies individual rights has been morphed by the ACLU and cooperative courts into restrictions on individual rights. The bill of rights were written to restrict government. There is great value and maintenance of freedom when the constitution, particularly the bill of rights, are taken literally. When it says, "Congress shall pass no law regarding the establishment of religion nor the free practice thereof." That means no law. This is no longer the case. IRS routinely uses tax laws to restrict the content of sermons in churches. IRS has gone so far as to come up with their definition of what a preacher is.

Freedom of Speech for all but Christians
Once again we see the latest example of the growing power of the left wing thought police. Gays and lesbians can print or say anything they want in a government or business forum but just try to do that if you are a Christian group or one upholding traditional family values. Lately I feel that the left has been feeling especially confident due to the Democrats winning back Congress and the prospect of Hillary Clinton winning the White House. It's war my fellow conservatives and we better get cracking or we will wake up one day soon wondering where all our freedoms went.

Nam 65-66 is absolutely right!
to paraphrase -"it's the judicial benches stupid!"
The only way to turn our beloved country around is to put conservatives in power (congress and the Presidency) who can in turn fill the benches with CONSERVATIVE STRICT CONSTRUCTIONIST JUDGES!

Which of course only means the WE THE PEOPLE can make the laws, rather than the ACLU.

I've hated and distrusted GWB since he was gov. of Texas- BUT I voted for him twice ONLY to ensure CONSERVATIVE APPOINTMENTS (although he did almost slip Miers through). And I will Always vote GOP because WE CAN'T RISK A LIBERAL JUDICIARY!!!!!!

Tolerance & Censorship
See? It's like I said before: If tolerance is to be absolute, then the least tolerant among us, which also happen to be the least like us, will determine what the rest of us may say. No free society, however, can remain free for long unless it allows the differences among its members to be resolved outside of its courts and legislative chambers. But this is not what America is doing.

By reducing the moral principles upon which its freedom rests to "values" to be validated at the ballot box by "values voters", America is exchanging the self-regulating mechanisms of its once-free society for the arbitrary and capricious edicts of government. It seems Americans would have the courts tell them what to say and think and do rather than their consciences. Such a people is not worthy of liberty.

You reap as you sow.
In the past the religious right has used their majority status to restrict the freedom of others by using government force to inflict their peculiar values on unwilling members of our society. The put upon minorities learned by watching. They organized, concentrated their influence, and are now using the same force to impose their peculiar values on the unwilling majority.

To break the cycle power must be removed from government and returned to the individual. Victory at the polls, or in the courts is only temporary. Peaceful coexistence cannot be achieved with force. To live by one's own values, one must be willing to let others live by their own values.

The bulletin board is a public forum
"Following Boy Scouts of America’s success in Boy Scouts v. Dale, gay rights advocates and 'politically correct' government officials have attacked Scouting’s right to have access to public facilities and government forums on an equal basis with other community groups.

"In determining whether the government may exclude an individual speaker or group from a 'forum' program or facility that is generally open to others based on the speaker’s or group’s expression, courts apply different standards depending on the type of forum involved. No matter what the type of forum, however, any exclusion must be done on a viewpoint neutral basis. ANY EXCLUSION BASED ON THE SPEAKER'S VIEWPOINT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL. (Emphasis added)

"The types of forums discussed in the case law include the following:

1. Traditional public forum: A 'traditional public forum' is a traditional forum for public discourse, such as a park or sidewalk. Government restrictions on speech are subject to strict scrutiny and must be narrowly drawn to achieve a compelling state interest.

2. Designated public forum: The government creates a 'designated public forum' when it intentionally opens a nontraditional forum for public discourse, such as state university meeting rooms open to student organizations, school board meetings open to the public by state statute, advertising space in state-owned subway and commuter rail stations, and public libraries. Restrictions on speech are analyzed with the same strict scrutiny as in a traditional public forum.

3. Limited public forum: The government creates a 'limited public forum' when it intentionally opens a nonpublic forum to certain groups or topics, such as public school facilities open to community groups, state university student activities fund, state university facilities open to activities of registered student groups. Restrictions on speech must be viewpoint neutral and reasonable in light of the purpose served by the forum.

4. Nonpublic forum: Government property may be a 'nonpublic forum.' Examples of nonpublic forums include airport terminals, military bases and restricted access military stores, and jailhouse grounds. Restrictions on speech must be viewpoint neutral and reasonable in light of the purpose served by the forum, as in a limited public forum.

http://www.bsalegal.org/access-to-government-forums-cases-223.asp

Talk is cheap!
Could it be that the horse is harnessed backwards in this essay? Maybe we ought to devalue speech to the extent of complete tolerance for any fool saying anything, and display absolute intolerance for any fool who blames such speech for their personal psychic distress. Then we'd have true free speech and improved our sinking education system by a magnitude or so.

Human Rights Campaign = Torjan Horse
The HRC appears to be a little bit like a Trojan Horse. Outwardly HRC looks like a good gift to America. Outwardly, homosexual activists claim their man-man and woman-woman relationships are more "committed and compassionate" than normal man-woman marriage. They refer favorably to a small percent of "committed and compassionate" same-sex relationships, and unfavorably (hatefully) to a small number of abusive normal marriages. That is a tactic they use (along with Planned Un-parenthood – PU, they stink) to sell porn junk to media and entertainment and sex-ed to our public schools, and outlaw parental objections, so they can corrupt our children and so the next generation of adults will be less competent to be normal parents.

But inwardly HRC (occult, pagan homosexual and abortion activists) is full of corruption!!! They are trying to ruin our American culture using the same tactics they used during the Weimar Republic of Germany. According to Scott Lively's well documented book "Pink Swastika" (available from abidintruth.com), Hitler and the Nazi political party were trying to be the master race, believing in Darwin’s "survival of the fittest", brutally abusive homoerotic "Butches" who hated effeminate homosexuals and Jews. So they killed millions of them during the Holocaust. After WWII, HRC came to America and started all over again. Many of our political Liberals appear to have the same character as the Nazis (Neo-Nazis).

The HRC is full of selfish, irresponsible lusts and lies and deceptions, desire to legalize dozens of vile immoral acts, physical/ emotional/ bio-chemical abusive treatment of each other and of children, deadly diseases, and these are leading to higher costs of tax-payer funded health care and welfare.

I believe their concept of "committed and compassionate" gay unions is based on a myopic view of normal marriage, because the small percentage of normal heterosexual families they were raised in were so abusive that those bad examples gave them a bad impression of normal marriage and of the other gender. So their solution is gay marriage.

But the real solution would be getting government and legal processes out of the picture, and allowing sex-ed in two stages. (1) Parents should be good examples of loving faithful marriage (good examples make good impressions) and make few discrete comments about distinctions in male and female "plumbing" and wait until marriage, and (2) then young men and women can learn all they need to know about sex (earn their Mr. and Mrs. degrees) from on-the-job training.

I would love to see the HRC experience a major setback here in America. But we need a generation of voters and elected Government leaders, preachers, teachers and parents who have the vision to see this and the courage to stand up against it.

There's a book and
A year comes to mind: 1984. So do the words, "O Brave New World, that has such people in it!"

I've got a better one
I worked at a very large nationwide company. We suddenly started receiving copies of the "GLOBE" - this little gem was the Gay,Lesbian,Other(?), Bi-sexual Employees news letter - printed and distributed and addressed to every employee.
My copy simply went straight to the trashcan, apparently a co-worker of mine went way too far and wrote to request that her name be removed from their mailing list. This resulted in Kafkaesque inquiry into her bad attitude, her bias, and her intolerance by HR.
--- the rest of us then woke up and requested that our names be removed.


Well, folks...
I guess free speech is only for the secular-progressive Marxists

I once predicted that this issue...
...would have the potential to be a flashpoint in a second American Civil War. Now I'm beginning to revise my opinion. This issue is just one of an assortment of issues with that deadly potential, along with immigration, abortion and the environment.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it really won't matter which issue becomes the starting point of hostilities. Once bullets start flying and homemade bombs start going off, dozens of diametrically opposed groups all over the U.S. will see it as their cue to literally declare "open season" on each other.
By letting these inflammatory issue slip from our control, we are now in the "slow burn" phase. If we let it get any more out of hand, the Melting Pot will boil over. I don't even want to think of what comes after that...

Excuse me...
...but when are we going to learn what the left has always known: Our elected represntatives do not have the last word in making laws.The Judicial branch of government(local,state and national)have that power.The left wing ACLU has always known this and has been very successful over the past fifty years.Like it or not,it is a fact of life.Why haven't we learned to live with it?

Where are the Conservative groups that are equivilent to the ACLU? For example,Congress is now proposing to limit or eliminate Conservative talk radio.If they do,the very first organizations hauled into court should be Alphabet networks and many cable news and commentary stations.Let the judges have at them.It will put the fear of God into them if they could be the victims of these laws,rather than just the conservatives.Public schools should be sued on a dailey basis for promoting the gay agenda that is "offensive" to non gays.For sure,we would lose most of these cases,but so does the ACLU.Just the fact that an organization may be sued has an influence on their actions.It doesn't make any difference if we think that it shouldn't be that way,it is that way.The un-elected judicial branch of government has the final say on what the law is and we have to take advantage of that the way the Left has.

If we do
then heterosexuals will be required to stay out of sight just as Whites are now during Martin Luther King Day.

Today is Pride Weekend (they have taken out "gay" from the title so they can celebrate all kinds of other perversions too) so except for going to church this morning I have been staying absolutely out of downtown and off the local channels, just as I do on Martin Luther King Day.

Anybody who allows himself to be muzzled because ordinar conversation is branded hate speech is a sissy. Speak up and let them come after you if they want to try. That is why God made every third person on earth a lawyer.


America is not listening
Our politicians are self-serving. The homosexual community only sees their "rights", and their interests. The Christian community has become divided over so many issues that they have lost the strength of their voice. We have lost the ability to hold a leaders feet to the fire with our vote. The majority of people in this country with an ounce of passion for change are those without convictions. Now its the power behind the secular progressive vote the politicians seek. Each of these politicians that gets elected ends up owing the homosexual community. They say a couple of things about respecting religion and Christians take them seriously. They don't respect the Christian because the Christian did not put them in office. Now look at what is happening. You have Mass. lawmakers denying the people a voice, you have lawmakers in California doing the same. Christians today are carrying that lax attitude that tells them that things will return to normal. Wake up! Put down that radical re-translation of the Bible that you find excuses you for living whatever way suits you best today. Wake up! You are losing your right to be a Christian in this country. There is an all out effort to silence the Christian while indoctrinating his kids without his knowledge or consent, apparently that effort has been expanded to the work place. How nice... We are probably only a few years a way from a federal mandated pride day, i hope we at least get the day off of work.

9th Circ
What a bunch of losers. They don't care about the rule of law, just agendas and protecting the most shrill minority groups. They need to buy a clue.
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