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Wednesday, March 14, 2007
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Core Of Conservatism: Distinctions And Consequences
by Michael Medved
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In addition to all our other problems in the bitter aftermath of dispiriting electoral defeat, conservatives in 2007 face major challenges of self definition.

Who are we, and what issues remain essential, irreducible elements of our political identity?

Do we need to reconsider our approach to some of the key controversies of the day in order to recapture majority support?

And how do we resolve some of the apparent conservative contradictions? -We want smaller government and fewer public employees at the same time we want to hire more soldiers, cops and border patrol agents. -We favor choice in education, but oppose choice in abortion policy. -We emphatically support the institution of marriage, but don’t want government backing for gays and lesbians who seek to get married.

A clear understanding of the core convictions that make us conservative (and, for the most part, Republican) should resolve such seeming inconsistencies and connect our positions on ostensibly unrelated issues.

Why, for instance, would those who work for lower taxes also favor longer prison terms for violent criminals? What’s the association between strong support for Second Amendment rights and backing for Ten Commandments monuments in public places?

Most of the common efforts to define the fundamentals of conservative thinking fall short in their explanatory power. For instance, it’s impossible to say that conservatives want “small government” above all, when most of us want expanded governmental efforts to crack down on terrorists, crooks and illegal immigrants. Yes, we generally favor “less regulation” but we also want more restrictions on abortion, pornography and desecration of the flag.

It’s true that most conservatives and Republicans describe themselves as religious and we certainly recognize the value of organized faith, but nearly a fourth of GOP’ers remain proudly secular and there’s no obvious religious basis for, say, backing lower taxes on capital gains.

The essential instinct behind modern conservatism goes beyond a desire for small government or any religious impulses, and animates our approach to politics, culture, foreign policy, family life, child-rearing, the business world and much more.

Above all, conservatives feel impelled to make clear distinctions between right and wrong.

We reject all notions of moral relativism. Though we’re obviously imperfect, and (like all human beings) often fail to do the right thing, we try to draw lines between the beneficial and the dysfunctional, between productive and destructive.

In policy as well as personal life, we seek to differentiate between good and bad behavior, and we want all of society (not just government) to encourage the good and discourage the bad.

In other words, conservatives insist on making distinctions, giving the individual broad latitude to choose, and then recognizing that choices must carry consequences.

A decent society supports and rewards good choices and discourages bad ones.

For instance, we want lower taxes because high tax rates punish and burden the hard work and productivity that benefit society at large. We oppose generous welfare benefits because such programs reward misfortune or, at worst, indolence.

Since nearly everyone (including Hillary Clinton and other top Democrats) believes that abortion is at least unfortunate, “tragic,” and morally questionable, we want to block or discourage the choice to abort a baby. In most cases, the desire to “terminate a pregnancy” amounts to an effort to erase the consequences of previous bad choices (like unprotected sex outside a marital relationship). The pro-life consensus among most conservatives stems not only from religious commitment but from a logical desire to avoid facilitating irresponsible behavior – in both snuffing out potential life and encouraging reckless sexuality.

The conservative focus on making distinctions makes it easy to defend traditional definitions of marriage. The difference between a same-sex relationship and the union of a man and a woman isn’t subtle, or slight or inconsequential. Aside from the brutally obvious fact that no love between two men or between two women will produce its own progeny, it’s the union of profoundly contrasting male and female elements that gives marriage its unique and permanent power. The insistence that marriage apply only to this joining of opposite genders doesn’t require the conviction that homosexual relationships are wrong, but it does arise from the clear-eyed recognition that they’re profoundly, irreducibly different from male-female coupling.

On Social Security, we favor more ability to build private accounts, rather than the government’s one-size-fits-all approach that provides identical benefits for savers and spenders. We oppose affirmative action, race-based quotas, and reparations because such programs draw false distinctions, judging people on skin color and gender rather than their own abilities and achievements. We naturally want harsher consequences for criminals who make cruel and destructive choices, and more obvious and generous rewards for people who work hard, raise their families, and play by the rules.

We favor free markets and small government not for their own sake but because the profit system represents the best possible means to encourage wholesome, constructive choices. The only way to make money in a free marketplace is to benefit and bless other people: to provide them with a product or a service they choose to buy. You enrich yourself and enhance your own power by providing your neighbors with what they want.

Government, on the other hand, often rewards revolting behavior – and not just with generous grants for disgusting public art. Consider the plaintiffs bar and the outrageous lawsuit abuse that cripples American business: the current legal system makes multi-millionaires of predatory lawyers (thank you, John Edwards) who produce nothing except random examples of jackpot justice and moronic warning labels.

We oppose the socialist insistence on providing the productive and the pathetic with identical or at least similar rewards; such notions of “equality” seem to us not only stupid but profoundly unfair. In place of the Marxist formulation "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," we favor the alternative suggested by Charles Koch in his excellent new book "The Science of Success": "From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution." Erasing distinctions between the productive and the destructive constitutes the height of injustice.

Because we embrace the notion of choices carrying consequences, we recognize that we're inevitably impacted by the behavior of our parents, our neighbors, our communities. All men may be "created equal" but our families didn’t make equally sound choices. While America must continue its tradition of opening opportunities for even the most appallingly underprivileged, to take away the advantages of the more fortunate involves punishing the good behavior of those who provided those benefits. If a father works overtime, saving and investing and limiting expenditures, so he can provide a head start for his children, governmental efforts to chip away at his arrangements for his kids (with, say, inheritance taxes) represent an effort to deny the consequences of the parent's choice.

The conservative instinct to get tough on violent criminals represents the very essence of our approach – just as the liberal impulse to treat them generously and mercifully represents the very essence of liberalism (the subject for my column next week, by the way). While we emphasize that choices carry consequences, their major imperative is "help the unfortunate." In deciding where society should confer reward or punishment, conservatives consider whether behavior's been right or wrong; liberals examine whether you're fortunate or unfortunate, a victor or a victim. For them, victimhood, not virtue, most merits special consideration.

In foreign affairs, the desire to make distinctions animates all authentic conservative approaches, whether "realist" or "Wilsonian." While liberals want government commissions and study groups to inquire why terrorists and dictators don't like us, and want us to continue to pour foreign aid into the most dysfunctional nations on earth, and favor decision-making by "unbiased" international bodies like the U.N., conservatives understand that different nations should be treated differently. We need policies that distinguish between friend and foe, the good and the bad --- while recognizing that sometimes we need to accept friends (think Pakistan, Saudi Arabia) that aren’t all that good.

With the conservative emphasis on moral distinctions, we recognize it wasn't just the suspected weapons of mass destruction that made Saddam Hussein so dangerous: it was the evil and genocidal nature of his regime. Those same weapons hardly constitute a menace in the hands, say, of the British or the Japanese.

Our insistence on choices carrying consequences also explains the continued right wing opposition to immediate withdrawal from Iraq. We don’t want to reward evil or punish good, and yet a quick American departure would reward some of the worst behavior on earth (giving terrorist murderers exactly what we want) while damaging and betraying decent and courageous Iraqis who placed their faith in us.

Drawing distinctions between helpful and harmful, right and wrong represents the very essence of conservatism, so it makes sense that those of us on the right should support organized faith and its role in society. Even conservatives who personally shun religion, recognize that religious teaching provides most Americans with the moral absolutes that animate their lives and inform society’s time-honored standards.

Just as Biblical faith portrays all people as children of God, worthy of respect and fellowship, so too conservative core principles require that we must never treat our fellow citizens differently based on false categories like race, arbitrarily granting rights or favor to one group over another. This doesn't mean, however, ignoring or minimizing the different paths and different results that human beings in a free society select for themselves. Personal accountability, and individual responsibility for your own family and future, represent fundamental conservative priorities. We should be able to resolve all the internal disagreements that may from time to time divide our movement if we apply a consistent and clear-cut standard: will a given policy or initiative help society to encourage good behavior and discourage destructiveness?

In approaching every issue, and dealing with all our fellow citizens, we hope to affirm the only distinctions that matter: based not on status, but on behavior, not on emotion but on impact. As faith has always taught, the choices we make in this life, for better or for worse, carry consequences both practical and eternal.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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Michael Medved
How would you know what a conservative was? You are nothing but a statist apologist. Not a conservative at all.

You stir the pot a lot in this article, implying that there are no distinct principles in conservatism. That everything is just a big sea of gray. What you wrote is nothing but pure BS.

It's really not very hard. The federal government is not supposed to be involved in probably 80% of what they are doing now. It is unconstitutional. The states and local governments should be handling the vast majority of what the fed has assumed.

Oh, and I just LOVED this one:
"It’s true that most conservatives and Republicans describe themselves as religious and we certainly recognize the value of organized faith, but nearly a fourth of GOP’ers remain proudly secular and there’s no obvious religious basis for, say, backing lower taxes on capital gains."

Excuse me, Michael. I fail to see the religious basis or the Constitutional basis for having taxes on capital gains AT ALL.

You did however do a decent job of explaining the fallacy of an interventionist approach to foreign policy, even though that was not your intention. Repeat after me... we should not entwine ourselves with other nations' affairs. We should trade with all, but not give special favor to any. If one attacks or is an imminent threat, we wipe them off the face of the earth. It's really quite clear cut. No gray here.

Run back and tell your handlers that you tried, but we saw right through your propaganda.

Liberty
That quote about trade does that come from the constitution? No I think not, It comes from one president. No where did that President ever say you wipe a nation off the face of the earth. Did Washington attempt to wipe England off the Face of the Earth I dont think so.

Conservative = Fred Thompson
If this link works it will show anyone who is interested what a Conservative stands for and what he stands against.


http://ontheissues.org/SENATE/Fred_Thompson_SenateMatch.htm

Mr Medved
Smaller government You couldnt have done better then that for an explanation? I have come to appreciate and learn from your ability to expand on ideas and to educate this article seems to lack your usual clearity. Or it could be just late.

Gay "Marriage"
Medved, and most everyone else who discusses the topic, dance around this issue without really hitting the nail on the head.

One of the main reasons for opposition to same-sex marriage is rooted in this maxim: government may *allow* private engagement in behavior that is inherently destructive, but it must not *license* such activity. Social conservatives beleive that homosexuality is a psychological disorder, and thus oppose government sanction of homosexual relationships.

The bulk of modern psychiatric research supported this claim for its entire existence prior to 1973, but that year the American Psychiatric Association voted to remove homosexuality from its list of psychological disorders in its Diagnostics and Statistics Manual. Why? Nowadays nobody except for critics tries to explain what happened back then.

The question is relevant to only three issues: marriage, adoption, and military enlistment. If homosexuality is a disorder, some of its forms may be inherently detrimental to raising a kid or working in the unique working environs of the military.

On the latter issues, other considerations arise. Regarding the military, it is a violation of common sense to bunk people with the gender to which they are attracted. (If gays were like everybody else, similar proportions of the gay and straight population woudl agree with this sense of propriety.) As for adoption...children learn to relate to the sexes primarily through their parents. The goal of adoption is to place children in an ideal environment, therefore adoption shoudl be for straight couples.

The question is relevant to education if one supports public education; I don't like the idea of the State controlling the flow of information, through the press *or* the schools. It is relevant to sodomy laws only if one believes a) that government is obligated to criminalize reckless noncommercial sex, and b) that such prohibition works; I believe neither. It is irrelevant to hate crimes; such laws embody the Animal Farm credo "all are equal, but some are more equal than others." The question is also irrelevent to genuine tolerance; tolerating people means getting along with people despite real or perceived shortcomings.

Many of these sentiments are a condensed version of a September 2005 post on my blog, titled "The Unasked Question."

Euphemisms R Us
"The only way to make money in a free marketplace is to benefit and bless other people"

I would not put it in precisely those terms.

youmakemelaugh2
You need to read some of the recommendations of the 9/11 commission. Not all of them were good things, that is, if you value your freedom and any vestige of privacy.

Doug
I admit that I didn't do a particularly good job of putting my comment together. But, neither are your charges. I didn't say that my comment came from the Constitution, did I? Nor, did I mention George Washington. What I wrote was my opinion and perhaps I was too harsh with the "wiping off the face of the map" comment. You know Doug, I'm only human and sometimes it gets tiring, people claiming you are weak on defense, or somehow don't want to fight, because you believe in non-intervention. What I was trying to say... we leave countries alone, unless they attack us or pose an imminent threat. If they do, we fight back and fight back with gusto.

Doug, my primary point was that Medved is trying to muddy up what conservatism is all about. For example, he says, "We should be able to resolve all the internal disagreements that may from time to time divide our movement if we apply a consistent and clear-cut standard: will a given policy or initiative help society to encourage good behavior and discourage destructiveness?"

That's pure BS. We didn't look at at a policy to determine whether it helped society or not. We looked at it with regard to whether it was constitutional for the federal government to be involved!

With statist shills like Medved going around spouting this garbage, it's no wonder conservatives forgot their principles.

Ha ha ha Michael...
You wrote a beautiful article and you nailed it. You really described modern conservative ideals in a manner in which if a Liberal actually chose to absorb your words, could finally understand we are not evil white madmen.

But as I see the replies already, the swarm of insolent tantrums begin.

I was feeling so confident in your article, I was tempted to forward it to my Leftist family so they can understand and intake what their conservative daughter has tried to convey to them for years. It's been difficult when they interrupt me constantly and switch the subject and twist my words.

I thought this article would really solidify my stance that they would understand....And then I decided after reading the replies not to. I just think there is simply no way to permeate any understanding with liberals our simple and basic ideals.

But in all, great article, it's a keeper. I do hope some liberals reading it will have a greater understanding of us, although they have the choice of not to agree.


RINO's
Newt = Contract for Cash.
Rudy = $80,000,000 from the aussie toll road co.
McCain = The McCain/Kennedy Am Nasty Bill
Thompson = Member CFR, TV talking head, snake

8 years of "Bush" ='s
"One of my greatest moments in my terms of office was today, packing lettus here in Mexico"

Sir, Sir,

thats DDT and Human Waste on you hands there from that greatest moment....!

Moral Relativism
If Conservatives truly "reject all notions of moral relativism" .... it is time to drill from the debate any statement which begins with the phrase:

"But Clinton ..."

Will
Then please.....Moveon.org

will
If firing 8 district attorneys is an attempt to "make the Justice Dept. an arm (extension) of the republican party", then what the heck was firing 93 of them?

balconesfault
We only use moral relativism to point out the hipocrisy of the left. It's not to excuse immoral behavior.

America's Future
Mr.Medved is correct, we are at a crossroads. Conservatives may have to decide between party and country. The Republican Party under GWB seems intent on political suicide. Pandering to citizens of other countries illegally in our country while telling us we must be vigilantes if we object to illegal aliens ignoring our borders and laws. Mel Martinez is RNC Chairman to ensure an open borders candidate in '08. The cheap labor express will be kept running, regardless of the consequences, to party or country.


These next 2 years are vital to the future of this country. For 2007 we must make certain that McCain/Kennedy or whatever it's called this year does not pass the House. It will pass the Senate. The President will sign it, followed by the Totalization Treaty with Mexico.

In 2008 we must make the candidates address border security and immigration enforcement.
20-30 million citizens of other countries are in our country illegally, 55% from Mexico, most of the rest from other Central and South American countries. Let's not ignore the leftward voting trends of these countries. It is notable that they picked May Day, an old communist day of celebration for their marches.

Most polls show at least half of the American citizens of Hispanic descent want the borders and laws enforced. Republicans will not win by alienating their current voters to get 40% of a new small block that will grow very large, very fast if amnesty is granted. That will grow the Democrats vote larger and faster as the influx increases exponentially as the result of another amnesty. It will spell the end of the Republican Party. The people who used to vote Republican will stop voting or form a new party. Conservatives will lose political influence and we will slide inexorably towards socialism (it has already started).

Most of what you hear about this issue is political propaganda that tries to convince you to give up your country without a fight, including on Fox News. The big money players are all on board the cheap labor express, they care not that American citizens do not want another amnesty. We know the last one resulted in 10 times the number of illegal aliens and a general disregard of our laws. The next one will be equally successful.

We need Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement, not reform. We need to restore respect for the law and the faith of the American people that their government is not selling them out. Amnesty for the illegal aliens is also amnesty for the corrupt companies who have been employing them. Money trumps everything, including love of country. Multi-nationals have no loyalty to country by definition, they see us as a market, not a nation. They see people as workers, documented or undocumented, no difference. If they can't send the work to where the labor is cheaper, then they want to bring the cheap labor here. Citizenship is meaningless.

If we love our Constitution and our representative Republic and we intend to keep it we must not surrender our sovereignty or abandon the rule of law. Profits must not supercede security. We should not create a new path to citizenship. We have a path to citizenship, illegal aliens have ignored it and bad choices do have consequences.

Apoplectic
"If firing 8 district attorneys is an attempt to "make the Justice Dept. an arm (extension) of the republican party", then what the heck was firing 93 of them?"


This relates to a lie that cons have been pushing around ever since this issue exploded: It is perfectly normal and usual for a nearly complete turnover of Pro AGs when an administration changes parties. Republicans do it then, so do Democrats. What has never happened in history is that they are fired in great numbers DURING AN ADMINISTRATRION for political purposes. They are supposed to be totally immune from political pressures by the administrations they work for.

Instead of just swallowing all the garbage you hear on Limbaugh and Savage, why don't you do a little research on your own?

us attorneys
it was reported that US attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president. is this not so?

if so, why does there need to be a reason for their dismissal?

is it because it is a republican vs a democrat president?

like any other presidental appointees, why would they be surprised by their dismissal. they should have wondered why they were kept that long.

using the same logic, were you surprised when Bush replaced Albright with Powell?

what were the reasons? what do she do wrong?

these criticisms are pure politics and the MSM carrying the water of the democratic party once again.

valiant attempt
This was not a bad attempt to connect disparate points into something like a line. But if we believe the premise here that, for example, pornography is to be outlawed because it is immoral and the general conservative objection to any kind of hate speech codes as showing that conservatives think hate speech is moral?

And now that Medved has proven that the free market guarantees that money making most always be moral should we expect him to stop criticizing the altruists in hollywood who are so intent on doing good?


valiant attempt
This was not a bad attempt to connect disparate points into something like a line. But if we believe the premise here that, for example, pornography is to be outlawed because it is immoral and the general conservative objection to any kind of hate speech codes as showing that conservatives think hate speech is moral?

And now that Medved has proven that the free market guarantees that money making most always be moral should we expect him to stop criticizing the altruists in hollywood who are limited to doing only good?


Will
Don't expect to see a thoughtful, informative and serious debate about the AG firings. Ain't gonna happen on this site.

You want depth? keep looking.

Medved
What you are basically saying is what conservatives are always saying: That they have this laundry list of social and political rules that they want everybody to follow except when they (conservatives) decide they don't personally want to. What has been happening is an incredible degree of dissonance between what conservatives say and what they do, and deciding that it's just a matter of making exceptions , aside from being arrogant and dishonest, makes for a very messy and self-serving ideology.
What you end up with is a system of belief that you only have to apply when it serves the interest of the Republican Party, something that Bush has been trying to implement for 8 years.

Liberty
Your assertions are correct but unfortunately will get nowhere. You will not find enough strict constructionists out there to ever turn back the distorted interpretations of the Constitution. The best one can hope for is to limit them. This has been done throughout history. President Wilson grabbed unprecedented powers only to have many rolled back over time. Granted, over time they accumulate and get us to where we are today, but unless the education system changes in this country so that people understand what is happening and assuming they truly would want a fairly weak federal government (I have doubts), we are left with choosing the lesser of two evils. In my mind, it isn't even up for debate who the lesser evil is.

This is an interesting essay
I first started coming to this site when Republicans controlled all three branches of government but seemed to be doing none of the things they say they want. I wanted to understand what was in store for the country and what I could do for my grandkid's sake.

Reading posts here fairly regularly, I'm still pretty much unclear about the future or even if conservatives will have the control they want.

I have learned that even though I have supported myself and raised two children without aid of any kind, there is no common ground for us. You all have such a black and white view of things yet you're no better than liberals at living up or down to (depending on POV)your standards. Interesting.

Dog
What other Administration(s) had a complete turnover of pro AG's when the new party took over? How many of those had some of those AG's investigating high and top ranking officials in the Administration? Stick to the facts please.

Will
Alberto will probably be awarded a medal of honor.


The amazing thing is that this is a case that has an inarguable paper trail, and even that won't result in any trouble for the people responsible.

Apoplectic
All incoming administrations hire new AGs - they are appointed by the incoming president, it's what happens.

After they are hired, however, --please read this carefully --they are supposed to be totally isolated from any kind of political influence, the same as a judge, a juror, and they are charged with seeing that non-partisan justice is carried out. They are only replaced in rare instances, and then from very serious and aggregious cases. There has never been a case of 7 AGs fired at one time during an administration.

Why are you arguing this? The facts are all available in e-mails and memos, no one is making this up.

Every week there is some kid of incompetence and screw up that comes from this administration. Why are you defending them? why aren't you at least on the side of your fellow American Citizens?




Dog
Because your facts are false. Normally an Administration keeps the previous Admin's Attorneys and replaces them slowly over time (Precisely what is happening now). Only one Administration felt the need to fire 93 of them all at once which is why you cannot give me a specific Administration. Like I said, TRY AND STICK TO FACTS!!!

Apoplectic
Sorry, my facts are not false. Look it up.

When there is an administrative change in the white house, AGs are generally fired as quickly as they can be replaced.

This situation has nothing to do with what you are talking about, these were already republican AGs that had been originally hired by the Bushies. They were fired FOR NOT LETTING THE REBUPLICANS TAMPER WITH THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, there is a paper trail which proves that, why don't you stop getting your information from talk radio?


Dog - your post 4:18 PM

I believe what you are saying is that in spite of the fact the the AG did nothing illegal, you are upset at what you view as impropriety of the firings?

There are also a few people on this blog that feel what a Republican appointee as the Special Prosecutor did in the Libby trial was improper also.

The Federal Attorney in the Whitewater scandel who was one of the 93 fired by Reno was replaced by a Clilnton operative who shut down the investigation.

Dog
So immediately firing 93 of them which obviously could not be replaced immediately, some of which who were investigating Whitewater, and Dan Rostenkowski, was not tampering with the justice system? Please. The point is, once again we have a double standard in the media.

To all

I just read a Media Reality report that said that Gonzales was interviewed on ABC, CBS, CNN, FNC, and NBC. He was asked 42 questions, none of which touched on the actions of the previous administrations firing of 93 attorneys.


Every network asked him if he would resign - 10 times in all.

Doesn't sound like a very fair and impartial media network job to me.

What is it that is driving this frenzy: the hatred of Bush, the hatred of the Administration, the hatred of Karl Rove, the hatred of the war in Iraq, what?

Sonny
The hatred of all of the above except the hatred of the war in Iraq which is itself the hatred of the first three.

apoplectic
You said, "If firing 8 district attorneys is an attempt to "make the Justice Dept. an arm (extension) of the republican party", then what the heck was firing 93 of them?"

So, is this another example of the 2 wrongs make a right, argument... or is it... The Republicans are bad, but look, the Democrats are worse?

How about BOTH are wrong?

Conservatism
GREAT article.

Visit: (OsiSpeaks.com) or (OsiSpeaks.org).

Now that I think about it
Why is it that for every accusation leveled against the Bush Administration we are able to cite an instance where Clinton did the same or worse. Yet the left still thinks Clinton was the greatest president since JFK. Odd!!!

Liberty
I agree, both are wrong. As I said, just using the example to point out the hipocrisy of the left and the media once again. The question is do we force them to resign if they are Republican, but don't even mention it if they are Democrat? As I said, the lesser of two evils is where I'm at.

Oh Willy, I just can't help myself^^
Let me copy and paste some delicious quotes of yours because all I said was for you to go to Moveon.org....:

"Co-equal" branches that even knuckleheads like you should have learned about in grade school).

I was not making a left-right POLITICAL & ideological argument you douchebag."

Hmmm, sweet. Calling me a knucklehead and a douchebag because of what I said?
Did some one not get the prize in their box of Fruit Loops this morning? Well, keep checking, Willie, I'm sure it'll turn up tomorrow.

My my, Willie...I have had many talks with Dog, Religiouslib and other liberals and we discuss in depth of how parties attack others. You are a prime example. Thank you for being...you.


Shells
Now, what did will say that enticed you to suggest he go to moveon.org?

As a conservative, I also have wondered why so very few articles raise issues about this administration's insistence on open borders and other serious issues.

And also....
Referring me as Iranian Shells?

LOL, I truly think you are mistaken on that title.

Come come, Willie...Take your pills. The doctor says you still need to if you chose to release yourself into society.

Liberty
The answer: Because if he was unhappy here and thought Townhall was a fluff forum and chose to voice his opinion on the fluff, perhaps Moveon.org would be better for his needs.

Perhaps I was wrong? Is it not a better forum for him? Did that warrant a response from him to call me a douchebag and a knucklehead? Was that type of hostility equated for what I had said to him.

But, I'm sure you will run to his defense. Let me see your ways...

apoplectic - your post of 5:44 PM

Is there any other way the issue can be debated without hatred being the motivating factor?

apoplectic
I see your point. I think the best thing though is to stand against BOTH of them. We have made so very many accomodations using the lessor of 2 evils approach. All it is doing is taking our country further downhill. WHEN are we going to forget all this left/right, democrat/republican cr*p and start looking at actual stances and actions on the real issues?

I mean, seriously, we have a President right now, that is bound and determined to give amnesty to 20-30+ MILLION illegal aliens and further enforce his open borders policy! Furthermore, his Security and Prosperity agreement with Canada and Mexico is more than just a bit questionable. Do we just turn a blind eye to this because he is a Republican? Isn't our allegiance to our country and our Constitution, GREATER, than any perceived allegiance to a certain political party?

I wish we could all get past all this partisanship BS and focus on AMERICAN issues.

Please put up or shut up
Dog writes: Wednesday, March, 14, 2007 4:54 PM
Apoplectic

"Sorry, my facts are not false. Look it up. .."

I get so tired of this monumentally lazy approach to argumentation. If you have the evidence to back up your statements, YOU provide it. You have no right to expect your opponent to do YOUR research for YOUR position.

Liberty
I wish there was an answer. If we hold one side accountable, the other side wins by default. Clearly the left including the MSM will never hold the other side accountable. The only reason the amnesty you are referring to has not already happened is the Republicans in Congress. Bush will end up having to side with the other party to get that amnesty passed. Realistically, the only hope for standing on principle is that it would get bad enough for the American people to wake up. I can't even imagine how bad that would have to be.

All, esp. Apoplectic etc.
I'm going to try this one more time.

Suppose Bush, or someone from his administration, or someone from his party, say a Republican Senator, called three of the Supreme Court Justices with a "suggestion" that they make a ruling or accept a case that would be helpful to a conservative cause?

Then, if they ignored the "suggestions" made by by the party in power, and instead made decisions that they found to be fair and impartial, so that Bush impeached, say, three of them at the same time in order to find Supremes that would take orders, would you still be so defensive of Bush, because that is exactly what happened, only not to the Supremes. The Spec. Prosecutors are supposed to have the same independence that any judge, including the Supreme Court is entitled to.

The reason nobody brought up the 80 ODD changes at the beginning of the previous administration is that IT"S NOT THE SAME THING and, frankly, everybody seems to understand that.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO TRY TO INFLUENCE MEMBERS OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM - and it's not a matter of tweaking it, as Medved suggests, it's AT THE FOUNDATION OF OUR CONSTITUTION.

Dog
You are correct, it's not the same thing. In one instance the person fired was investigating the Attorney General's Boss and his wife, in the other the Attorney General didn't like the results produced. Which is more suspect? Both are clearly wrong. Why is one important to you but not the other? I am not defending the Administration, I'm pointing out the hipocrisy of people like you and the MSM.

apoplectic
Here's the thing.... I don't think they ARE 2 different sides. At least at the top.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=14629


apoplectic

Please make a connection between your hatred of the Iraq war and the firing of eight attorneys by the AG? You lost me.

Sonny
Sorry, I meant much of the hatred of the Irag war is just another manifestation of the Bush hatred.

Evil nature of Saudi Arabia?
CAIR Fears CBN News
by Erick Stakelbeck
CBN News, March 13, 2007

This was actually the third time in the past three years that CAIR has ejected CBN News from one of their events. When asked by a FOX News reporter why CBN News was not allowed into today's press conference, CAIR spokesman Ibrahim Hooper answered:

"We have long barred the Christian Broadcasting Network from our news conferences because of their long, long history of VICIOUS, ANTI-MUSLIM BIGOTRY. And we have no motivation to promote that kind of intolerance. And it's a private function and we have decided they are not welcome."

C'mon, Ibrahim. Blacklisting a network simply because it calls attention to your radical, WAHABBI VIEWS is the height of "intolerance," and a classic TOTALITARIAN tactic.

For the record, Washington Times reporter Audrey Hudson was also escorted from today's event. Her crime? Calling into question the legitimacy of the six "peace-loving imams'" sob story.

Perhaps Hooper thinks America operates like SAUDI ARABIA -- THE WORLD CAPITAL OF WAHHABISM -- from which CAIR has taken substantial donations (amid repeated denials from Hooper).

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/119025.aspx

Liberty
I couldn't disagree more. One only need look at the impact on their own lives to see the difference. When Clinton was elected, I was in the military and below the poverty line with my pay. All Democrats in power. Did I get a big fat income tax increase? You bet!! (I did get an all expense paid trip to sunny Somalia though) Bush and the Republicans take control and I'm out of the military but far from rich. The very definition of middle class. Did I get an income tax cut? You bet!! Clinton in power and suddenly I darn near have to give blood to exercise my right to bear arms. Bush and the Republicans didn't immediately repeal it, but they at least let it expire. Bush wants amnesty but the majority of Republicans in the house and senate do not. Can the same be said of the Dems? NO. Yes, both sides are unduly influenced by the few. Does that mean there's no difference? As I said, one only needs to look at their own lives to see there is.

The media asks AG Gonzales ..
.. if he plans to resign 10 times today -- as a set up for tomorrow's news story.

By tomorrow the headlines will say:
"Amidst growing calls for his resignation, .."

That's one way to manufacture news.

Liberty, I disagree
You state that both Clinton and Bush were wrong to fire federal prosecutors. I disagree. They were both right. The Constitution gives both the power to fire any or all of the prosecutors for any reason they choose. It is true that firing all federal prosecutors simultaneously as Clinton did was unprecedented, despite the lying claims of Senator Clinton or the fools like Dog who parrot her lies. It is also true that Clinton's firings were highly suspect given the investigations of corrupt Democratts and his own shady Whitewater dealings that were underway at the time. However, he was within his Constitutional rights to act as he did.

Others point out Clinotn's firings not to claim that two rights make a wrong, but to illustrate yet again the sheer hypocrisy of Democrats and their yapping dogs in the media--little Schmucky Schumer and the NY Slimes had no problem with Clinton's firings.

From your previous posts, you seem like a strict constructionist. You must admit that Bush was acting within his Constitutional perogative, and owes no one an explanation. This is just another tempest in a teapot as Dems and their media minions attempt to manufacture another "scandal."

"Friends" like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia
Cheney's Speech And The Saudi Plan
by the Editorial Board
The Jewish Press, March 14, 2007

In his important speech Monday to the AIPAC policy conference, Vice President Dick Cheney reiterated some of the verities of the SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US AND ISRAEL. But Mr. Cheney’s remarks reflect the frustrations of an administration that hasn’t had a real policy success in years. His words take on even greater gravity given the current full court press by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to garner support for the so-called SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL.

The New York Times reported on Tuesday that “PRESSED BY WASHINGTON [Israeli Prime Minister Olmert and Foreign Minister Livni] are suddenly finding much to praise in a Saudi peace proposal that was DISMISSED IN 2002 when it was offered ....”

According to the Times, the Saudi plan “is a set of principles that would offer Israel full recognition and permanent peace with the Arab states in return for Israel’s withdrawal to 1967 lines, the establishment of an independent PALESTINE WITH EAST JERUSALEM AS ITS CAPITAL and `an agreed, just solution’ to the issue of Palestinian refugees in accordance with United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 of 1948.”

Of course, Resolution 194 says nothing about “an agreed, just solution.” In fact, it says that “refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practical date, and that COMPENSATION SHOULD BE PAID for the property of those choosing not to return....” So Israel’s problem with a Palestinian state and a “RIGHT OF RETURN” for Palestinians to Israel is not so simple.

Liberty
I forgot to mention that I agree wholeheartedly with your first post...Medved's article is tripe, and his so-called contradictions are false. There is no contradiction between increasing defense and border patrol budgets, activities which the government is Constitutionally duty-bound to perform, and calling for a reduction in spending in other areas in which the federal government has no authority to engage.

There is also no contradiction between supporting the institution of marriage and opposing the changing of the definition of marriage to include same sex or multi-partner relationships. Nor is it a contradiction to favor personal choice in retirement investing or schooling your children, but oppose the murder of unborn babies. Although Medved didn't mention it, it is also not a contradiction to favor the death penalty for murderers but not the killing of the unborn, disabled or feeble. To say that these are contradictions is to buy into the sophistry of the Left.

Why I'm not a Medved conservative
My political views put me pretty squarely on the "right-wing" side of the political spectrum, and I do tend to identify and sympathize with conservatives more than liberals (and to vote Republican most of the time). However, whenever I start thinking maybe I *am* a conservative (or a Republican), some conservative (or Republican)comes along and reminds me why I call myself a libertarian, not a conservative (and refuse to swear the unconditional allegiance to the Republican Party that Medved favors).

In this case it is Medved (who I listen to on the radio and often agree with on particular issues) who reminds me, in his column on he "core of conservatism," why I'm not a conservative. He writes, in part:

"We favor free markets and small government not for their own sake but because the profit system represents the best possible means to encourage wholesome, constructive choices."

Well, I *do* favor small government and free markets-- and the individual freedom these things foster-- for their own sake, and not just because I think they will encourage people to behave in the ways *I* approve of. It sounds on the other hand like Medved is prepared to resort to the power of government-- backed, ultimately, by the threat and reality of violence-- as soon as he decides people are behaving the "wrong" way.

Perhaps Medved would say that proves his point-- I'm not a conservative because I refuse to make "distinctions" between good and bad, better and worse. Not quite so. I do think that some kinds of behavior are objectively better or worse than others, and that there is some role for government in enforcng "better" behavior-- though mainly when the bad behavior involves using force or fraud against others. But on the other hand, I also believe in "letting people go to hell in their own way", acting on their own choices and taking the natural consequences. And I very much believe that while there are bad ways to live, there are also a lot of different *good* ways to live-- there is no One Best Way for everybody, as Medved seems to think. Small government, free markets and freedom itself are good things not because they happen to be effective in influencing people to behave in the One Best Way for all, but because they allow each of us to look for and find the best way for *ourselves*.

wrh bill
I seldom see posts on these threads that are good as this one, I almost never read posts this long because they are seldom worth the time.

This is clear, objective, thoughtful and smart, and I'm not really conservative.

Apoplectic
You responded to my example by saying "In one instance the person fired was investigating the Attorney General's Boss and his wife, in the other the Attorney General didn't like the results produced."

Those two instances are not anything like each other, it's like comparing dogs and mushrooms.

There are now Republican congressman who are in agreement and anyone who pays any kind of attention to how the justice branch of government works is in agreement. That's why no one so far on this site is talking about it, just as no one talked about the VA Hospital fiasco.

Unless the TH subjects are about sex or religion, they pretty much die in a fog.

I give up, give up, give up...just keep blaming the MSM, but I advise you to stay on TH.






Dog
Let me make this simple for you. NEVER, yes that's NEVER had an Administration come in and told 93 AG's that they had 10 days to clear out their offices. They replaced them as their terms expired. You are trying to make the claim that these politically motivated firings are somehow unprecedented. I point out politically motivated firings from the previous Administration to show the hiprocrisy and you claim the two are completely different. Believe what you want, but you'll never convince anyone else who is intellectually honest.

One last time
There is a difference between changing Federal Prosecutors when an administration from another party takes over the administration, and changing federal prosecutors when they won't let their integrity or their jobs be compromised by political directives that favor the party instead of justice.

I think Will is clearer than I am. Read his post, please - I just don't know how to state it any differently.

Apoplectic
This is not the brainiest resource on the internet, but I suggest you look up Federal Prosecuting Attorneys on Wikipedia. It has what is a pretty concise summary of this particular scandal.

Liberty sounds like a libertarian
Liberty claims: "We didn't look at at a policy to determine whether it helped society or not. We looked at it with regard to whether it was constitutional for the federal government to be involved!"

Yours is a libertarian position, not a conservative position.

What is the constitutional basis for the Defense of Marriage Act? (Is that Act even constitutional?)

What is the constitutional basis for the War on Drugs, especially the ban on marijuana, even medical marijuana used to treat the painful symptoms of cancer?

What is the constitutional basis for laws against sodomy? Laws against pornography? Laws against brothels?

What is the constitutional basis for spending millions of taxpayer dollars to send a spaceship to explore the planet Pluto? Or are you opposed to government-funded scientific research, unless there's a direct application to national defense?

You speak of the libertarian side of conservatism. But Medved was invoking the moralistic side, which you seem to ignore. Conservatives are not libertarians. They are prepared to use the power of government to help make this a more decent society, just as liberals do. It's just that their vision of "decency" is different from that of the liberals.

Talk about BIG Government

“The insistence that marriage apply only to this joining of opposite genders doesn’t require the conviction that homosexual relationships are wrong, but it does arise from the clear-eyed recognition that they’re profoundly, irreducibly different from male-female coupling.”
================================================
Yet still against our Constitution.

And what is this: “We oppose generous welfare benefits because such programs reward misfortune or, at worst, indolence.”
-----------------------------------------------
So, fireman John Doe gets crippled fighting a fire and we say, “Thanks for your sacrifice, but we are not responsible to you? We DON’T want to REWARD your actions!
Simply, this is twisted logic.

What about baby Jane Doe that is born critical, a life time of care. Sorry folks, you’re on your own. We DON’T want to REWARD your situation?

And this from Christians?

And I guess I am just evil incarnate, but what is wrong with two adults having sex? Is that not their choice? Is it our business? Should the government take control?

This article was garbage. He used excuses and twisted logic to pat himself on the back while totally ignoring the reality around him. This entire platform is about the government controlling all the behaviors of us. This is BIG Government.

Our Constitution was designed to allow all of us to live here together, regardless of differences. You cannot legislate morals and you cannot make religion more meaningful by law. When you try, all you end up with is oppression, revolt, and war.

Government programs can be responsible. There are times when the government stepping in makes sense. But to castrate that help simply because it comes from the government is simply crazy. Where would our space program be without government help? What products would not have been designed?

You all complain about abortion while refusing to except any form of government assisted birth control- that increases abortion. Educating kids about sex, kids that will be sexual regardless if we talk to them or not, will reduce the number of teenage pregnancies. What is wrong with this? If a government program is failing, fine, fix it, end it, but not all are valueless.

Allowing gays the same rights as us is simply living up to our Constitution. They pay taxes, they follow the laws, they are Americans, They are people, human, and they should have the same rights of each of us- regardless if you agree with whom they wish to spend their time.

This guy is redefining what Republican means. He tosses conservatism away and preaches moralist government control.

A government run by this man would be worse than the days of Monarchs. No one would be safe or secure in their possession or life.





Have a nice night.

SteveL
You said, "Yours is a libertarian position, not a conservative position."

There has always been a large crossover between some libertarian views and conservatism where it comes to abiding by the Constitution. That may be what you are seeing.

I am glad however that you mention the other things you did. I agree. Many are not constitutional. It doesn't mean that I don't agree with some of those things, but they were to be dealt with at the state and local levels of government, not the federal level.

You clearly have a different idea of conservatism than I do. This is the understanding that I grew up with. It was also the stance that Barry Goldwater took, who is credited with reviving conservatism.

- limited constitutional government
- personal privacy
- personal responsibility
- strong national defense
- fiscally responsible government
- individual liberty

Conservatives used to be very concerned with our government abiding by the Constitution.

What are your thoughts on that? Do you think some parts of it should be ignored?

Steve, I found it rather alarming when you said, "Conservatives are not libertarians. They are prepared to use the power of government to help make this a more decent society, just as liberals do. It's just that their vision of "decency" is different from that of the liberals."

Actually Steve, that is not a conservative stance. You apparently like the idea of a large federal government, only differing from liberals in how you what you want this large government to do. This is so very against conservatism at it's very roots. What you seem to be, Steve, is a STATIST, not a conservative at all.

Correction
Actually Steve, that is not a conservative stance. You apparently like the idea of a large federal government, only differing from liberals in what you want this large government to do. This is so very against conservatism at it's very roots. What you seem to be, Steve, is a STATIST, not a conservative at all.

Like I've said before folks, this is not between conservative and liberal; the fight is between statists vs. those who believe in a limited constitutional government and individual liberty.

Medved's article
If we can get away from U.S. Attorneys for a while and get back to Medved's article...

...it clears up something I've been wondering for quite a while: how did Medved ever come to be called a "conservative"? The answer is that he tries to talk like one, even though he doesn't really know what one is.

The core of conservatism is a belief in the individual. The individual has rights that the group--or the state--cannot take away. The property that belongs to the individual belongs to the individual, not the group. The individual decides his own destiny, not the group.

Part of this is belief in the ascendancy of the individual over the state is a belief that people are basically rational--capable of acting in their own self-interest--and basically decent--capable of understanding that they must live within basic limits of conduct so as not to trample on the rights of other individuals, and to keep the group healthy.

There's an understanding among true conservatives that no one has a right to another individual's property, and that no one should do harm to another individual. We see property as a sacred right, and each individual as sacred. Therefore, we have no problem punishing those who would do harm to others or steal from others.

Medved's conception of "conservatism" doesn't even come close to this, and if there are "conservatives" who think Medved's idea is what it's all about, it's no wonder the conservative movement has been in such trouble lately.

Interesting piece
I wrote a few of them myself in the last few months regarding this same topic: what exactly is a conservative. If you'd like, stop by andlet me know your thoughts.

Dog writes:
Wednesday, March, 14, 2007 6:37 PM
"...Suppose Bush, or someone from his administration, or someone from his party, say a Republican Senator, called three of the Supreme Court Justices with a "suggestion" that they make a ruling or accept a case that would be helpful to a conservative cause?

Then, if they ignored the "suggestions" made by by the party in power, and instead made decisions that they found to be fair and impartial, so that Bush impeached, say, three of them at the same time in order to find Supremes that would take orders, would you still be so defensive of Bush, because that is exactly what happened, only not to the Supremes. The Spec. Prosecutors are supposed to have the same independence that any judge, including the Supreme Court is entitled to.

The reason nobody brought up the 80 ODD changes at the beginning of the previous administration is that IT"S NOT THE SAME THING and, frankly, everybody seems to understand that.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO TRY TO INFLUENCE MEMBERS OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM - and it's not a matter of tweaking it, as Medved suggests, it's AT THE FOUNDATION OF OUR CONSTITUTION."



This is an utterly false analogy. Supreme Court justices are members of the Judicial branch. Federal prosecutors are members of the EXECUTIVE branch (they are law enforcement officers, not jurists), and serve at the pleasure of the president. The president has no power to impeach a judge. Only Congress can do that. In fact, because of the separation of powers, Congress does not have any oversight regarding the president's removal of officers from the Executive branch.

And quite frankly, the 93 (not 80) firings at the beginning of Clinton's first administration were indeed politically motivated. They provided cover for Clinton to remove one prosecutor who was investigating him for Whitewater and another prosecutor who was investigating Dan Rostenkowski, the democrat chairman of the Ways and Means committee at the time.

Virginia Daddy
I'd like to read them. Where are they?

Will is right
You're right, Will. I hope people really think about what you said.

Liberty
Don't know why my link has gone, but here's my URL. Weird. Anyway, thanks for stopping in. It has been a few months since I wrote, but hope you enjoy. There are 3 parts so far. let me know what you think.

http://justthinking.townhall.com

Not Conservative but Christian
We desparately need confessing Christian leaders. The reason we as a nation are going down the tubes is not liberalism, but secularism.
As the good book says, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
As for the unbelievers and infidels, they have far less to fear from a true christian than the other way around. (Just ask any believer who lived through the worker's paradise of Soviet Russia!)
As for what a Christian President or leader would hold as his highest duty, it would be the sanctity of human life, not a high priority amongst the secularists.
Next would be to care for the poorest of the poor. "Christians have always been forward for charitable efforts, and the rubbish of separation of Church and state has diverted this job again to the ungodly welfare system--- and that is a real mess.
there are a few characteristics of a Christian leader that may sound liberal, since profit is not the highest goal for mankind, but to love thy neigbor as thyself. I hardly see how our wholsale addiction to the Usury system and credit cards reflect a sober and just economic program. "Seems more like another drug addiction where your income is on cocaine."

So, what matters in the final thought is to Confess Jesus Christ as True God.
Any candidate that fails this test has failed the greatest test in all eternity.

Muscat
The only problem with that is they can be liars.

As far as taking care of "the poorest of the poor", that should go back to charities. It should not be a government function. Have you ever read Davy Crockett's, "Not Yours to Give"? It's really good.
http://www.house.gov/paul/nytg.htm

Redemption
That article was very well composed. It expressed the utopian version of what the core values of Conservatism claims to represent. This critique is mandatory, obligitory and redundant.
It's true that Liberalism's goals are just as honorable and actually coincide with many "Conservative" goals.
The middle ground is common sense. Common sense is what actually happens when either side gets its unabated own way.
For example, amongst the many well contrived points, social security vs. private investment always seems to come up. The uniform investment strategy of Social Security is a bear, it's a bet on America that most Americans are willing to take. Most folks are busting their butts and have little time or economic acumen to risk everything they've worked for on a bet, unless it's a sure thing. America is a sure thing. That is one point that Libs, Cons and Independents tend to agree on.
The stock market will always be there, but so will America.

Goldilocks

It seems to me after reading many of the posts on this thread, it occured to me GWB might not be the best at picking those he wants around him.

Chenny and Rumsfeld were long time political operatives in D.C. and GWB was a neophyte when coming into the presidency. Good picks? You decide.

The lower level of administration government really leave something to be desired. His original appointment to Homeland Security, Brown, was a lightweight. I don't think the Katrina situation would have been as bad as it was with a more experienced administrator in there at the time.

I think the same thing about Gonzales. This whole deal would not have happened if the AG was stronger. Bush got away with Ashcroft, but following him up with Gonzales is not working.

If a president is to have some of this pals appointed to executive positions, he has to take the responsibility for his appointments. It seems a couple of guys at the top were too strong for him and ran roughshod over him a few times and a couple lower rung guys were too weak.

I guess he never read the story of Goldilocks: not too strong, not too weak. Brown and Gonzales are not bad people. They just were not equipped for the job.


Will- great post
will writes: Wednesday, March, 14, 2007 10:10 PM
The Bigger Picture
I am signing off for the night. But I truly hope you all understand that what is happening in the White House is unprecedented. Unprecedented in the TOTALITY of accumulated illegal (or near-illegal) manipulations IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL SECURITY. These "infractions" (refusing to get court approval for wiretappings, a president who literally wants to cut this congress out of the picture if it can, & keep them uninformed - which is needed for operating in secrecy) is not what the founding fathers dreamed of.

Even KNOWING the threat of radical terrorism, the founding fathers would be horrified to see their beautiful sytem of checks & balances usurped by a personality that believes in a "unitary executive theory" (or "I'm the Decider"....actually, the founding fathers would argue he is only a PARTIAL decider, along with the other co-equal branches of government). Even in times of war, we must work within the pre-existing constitutional framework.

If conservatives choose to give GWB a "pass", as he's strong on terror & a loyal republican, this is still giving America a "precedent". And whatever president that follow, be it Hilary or Obama or Giuliani, can then "point" to the Bush administration & demand the same autonomous priveleges, the same secrecy, free of congressional oversite.

Just food for thought. And as George Clooney said in "Good night & Good Luck",
Good Night & Good Luck.
-------------------------------------------
Amen

Medheads are not conservatives
Im a Christian libertarian and I believe federal government has overstepped it's bounds, wastefully spent our grandkids future, and frankly don't obey or respect the Constitutional Rule of Law.

As a Christian I will not vote for liberals in either party. As a Libertarian I'm smart enough to realize the Repubs have gone over to the dark "left" side.
If Hillary or Giuliani get nominations we will get gay rights, abortions, gun bans, and unfettered illegal immigration.
More big government and more loss of god-given rights. (Shame on christians and so-called onservatives who vote for parties that try to take away god-given rights.)

The choice is clear in 2008, statism/federalism vs individualism and constitutional god-given rights.
If we don't start drastically reducing the size of government and stop borrowing money from the Chinese, or printing money to run the gov, we won't be discussing god-given rights or constitution anymore.

Lib-Repubs better wake up soon, if they want America to survive.
RINOs and NeoCons don't "cut and run" on the Constitution in 2008.

davy's crock
davy's crock writes: Wednesday, March, 14, 2007 10:38 PM

Medheads are not conservatives

As a Christian I will not vote for liberals in either party. As a Libertarian I'm smart enough to realize the Repubs have gone over to the dark "left" side.
If Hillary or Giuliani get nominations we will get gay rights, abortions, gun bans, and unfettered illegal immigration.
More big government and more loss of god-given rights. (Shame on christians and so-called onservatives who vote for parties that try to take away god-given rights.)
==============================================

You are taking away God given rights. Gays, under the Constitution, have the same God given rights as you and I- and that includes whom they wish to spend their lives with.

You are saying the government should take those rights away- because of your moral propositions.

That is not libertarian or Constitutional.

davy's crock
davy's crock writes: Wednesday, March, 14, 2007 10:38 PM

Lib-Repubs better wake up soon, if they want America to survive.
RINOs and NeoCons don't "cut and run" on the Constitution in 2008.
=============================================

You really belive the Neo's respect or abide by the Constitution? Their actions show they have a total disdain for the Constitution. As Bush's actions show he has no respect for it either.


Ben where does it say
in Constitution that federal government gives gays the right to be classed and treated any different than a hetrosexual couple. It doesn't.


will

I wish it weren't true, but in times of war, presidents do a lot of things that look pretty bad at the time.

FDR had to send thousands and thousands of men to the battlefield at a tremendous loss of life. The checks and balances in his administration were even far fewer than what we have seen with GWB.

Truman had to drop two atomic bombs on Japan. Again, a tremendous loss of life took place.

We had to to Korea. 50,000 soldiers lost their lives there.

Viet Nam was the cause of the loss of millions of lives when Congress cut off funding after our troops left. A mistake? You decide.

The point is, presidents make decisions. With the MSM being what it is today because of heated political advocacy, we are really only finding out now what goes on has been going on the White House for many, many years.

Deep down, I think all Americans have been suspicious to some degree the way our government runs. This distrust has driven people who now have a life purpose to shed light on situations that have been dark for a long time.

I applaud them in their viligance. But, one is always disappointed when it is the party of their beliefs. Does this mean the beliefs are wrong? Absolutely not, but it does indicate the fraility of our elected leaders.

There is something very intoxicating about working in D.C. Many principled men have gone there with good intentions but have been caught up in the corruption underneath the woodpile and have come away tainted for the rest of their lives.

It is not a job I would like or pursue. What I don't like is when they play, "got-cha". I would hope the level of discourse would be much higher than what we see nightly on TV. It just makes a bad situation worse.

davy's crock
davy's crock writes: Wednesday, March, 14, 2007 10:49 PM
Ben where does it say
in Constitution that federal government gives gays the right to be classed and treated any different than a hetrosexual couple. It doesn't.

==========================================

No, it doesn't. Nor does it say you can take them away.

Can you get married to whom you want?

Ben - your post of 10:44 PM

Ah, come on. Don't confuse cultural mores with state legislation. Christians have heard the harping for years about, "Don't legislate your morals on me". Then, the State comes along and says, "Screw you, we are going to legislate our values on you."

Our values were NEVER legislated. They are common to a civilized society long before this country was even founded. Then, after 200 years from its conception, they are deemed not to be acceptable by a minority claiming discrimination?

What couldn't be done through normal societal transformation was done through statutory law. Yes, we are a nation of laws, but not all the laws on the books are good laws. Many have come because of trying to please too many people without giving consideration to the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Cultural mores were in effect long before the Constitution came into existent. To say it provides the rights for the homosexual misrepresents the spirit and the intent of the founders of this country. It is being misused over and over again by those who have an agenda they wish to achieve. We know it, but haven't really made a big fuss about it, but it ridiculous to claim "Consitutional" rights for abnormal, deviant behavior. Keep it in the closet and we will all get along.

Was your sign off on your 10:34 posting flippant or for real?

Sonny
Who was it that said, "nothing in government happens by accident". I happen to agree.

Shells
You said, "But, I'm sure you will run to his defense. Let me see your ways..."

No, but neither will I run to yours. You started the fight with Will. I guess you then reaped the benefits of doing so.

apoplectic
Remember, I said at the TOP of the parties. Yes, the last vestige of most anyone we have that is half way decent in D.C. is Republican. There seem to be a few Democrats though that were elected in the last election because of their stance against the illegal alien invasion.

What I am talking about apoplectic, are the overall policies at the top. Nothing really changes as we go from one administration to the other. Sure, there are a few differences, such as their stance on the 2nd amendment. Do you not think they know that this is a hot button for conservatives? Take the UN. Republicans "talk" that it's no good, but look what is actually done. Bush has talked several times about needing to back them up so that their true purpose can be realized. What crap is THIS?

Bush also got us hooked back up with UNICEF, after Reagan got us out. His "No Child Left Behind" is nothing but a dirty UNICEF socialist brainwashing program.

What about the UN as a whole? Republicans talk big all the time about how bad this organization is. Then why is it that the ONLY one that has ever put legislation forth, in my lifetime, to get us out of this organization, is Ron Paul? Why don't more Republicans vote to pass the legislation? Dr. Paul introduces it EVERY year. No, the Republican Party does not want to get us out of the UN. Quite the contrary.

What about limited constitutional government? Bush even talked about small government and the need to return the power to the states and the people, in his campaign. Look what he has actually done. Under his administration, the size and scope of federal government has grown more than any Democrat that I can think of. The consolidation of power in federal government and the power grab from the states, enacted by this administration, should shock us all. Yet, we excuse it as needed to keep us safe.

What about federal spending? Republicans talk a good game, but do they walk their talk as a whole? I don't think so. Our debt is proof of that.

How about respect and adherence to the Constitution? Nope. In fact this administration has spit all over this great document, as much or more than any Democrat I can think of.

What about infringement of our individual privacy? We rail against the Democrats when they try to do this, but we let the Republicans walk right on in. We scream when the Democrats want to register our guns, and rightly so, but we all but applaud when the Republicans decide to eavesdrop on our phone calls, email, snail mail, financial transactions, etc.

While I'm at this point, I want to ask those of you who always come back and repeat a line from FOX news that goes something like this.... if you're not doing anything wrong... why would you care if the government watches you? When someone claiming to be a conservative first said thsi to me, I thought I was going to fall out of my chair. This statement is so very against everything our Founding Fathers told us and our Constitution, it is unbelievable. But, I wanted to ask those of you that believe that, the following: ok, then apply that same reasoning to guns. Why is it that you do not want them registered? I mean, if you aren't doing anything wrong, why would you care if the government knew what you owned? I hope you get my point. If you cannot answer the previous 2 questions, I seriously cannot help you. You are beyond hope.

What about our very Constitutional Republic and our nation's sovereignty? Regardless of Party, our country continues to be sold out. Clinton was pro open borders and Bush in fact, has picked up and taken the program much, much further, while we all sleep.

It almost seems like a big relay game. In fact, I think that is a good analogy.

We are being taken into world government, folks, step-by-step. It has been going on for a long, long time and the gig is almost up. The regionalization that is going on around the world is one of the last steps. It IS going on around the world. If you don't believe me, go check for yourself. It is just our turn now. That is why our country has been allowed to be overrun by illegal aliens and that is why they won't secure the border. It comes out of their own mouths, yet no one listens.

In case you are interested, here is a video, put together by someone that lives in my town, that illustrates the various regions being constructed. It's a couple years old now, so things have progressed much further. The most interesting part of this video is actually CSPAN footage of a Council of the Americas, Global Ambassadors dinner, where a video is shown that provides a bit of history of the UN, etc. If you watch this footage, I think things will become more clear. Note: The first 13 minutes are very informative, but dry. It really picks up when the video clips start right after that. Giuliani is even in it praising his almighty UN.

The Creation of the Global Union
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5790256003948876527&hl=en

David Rockefeller
If you watch this video, and I sincerely hope you do, you will understand why David Rockefeller said the following in his autobiography, Memoirs:

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will.

If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."


Test
...

Common Thread
I see a common thread throughout most of this discussion, excepting the debate on the Federal Attorney issue, and that is the divide between conservativism and libertarianism.

I think some people who call themselves conservatives are actually libertarians, and so argue against Medved's definition of conservativism, which is simply a form of statism wherein he favors government action to defend morality and the traditional family structure.

On the other hand, many conservatives see attempts to abrogate the power of government in individual matters such as morality, as liberalism.

Liberty said it right when he noted this is a struggle between statists and individualists; conservativism and liberalism are both on the side of government control over the individual, they just differ where that control should be applied.

Countryman
I agree that many conservatives today have fallen for the hook that the government can protect our values. Yes, this is true, but it is a dangerous path to go down, and it is apart from what I see as the origins of the conservative movement.

Perhaps this trend is as much an attempt to counter the liberal tactics, and perhaps there is something to it, if only for survival. But again, this is dangerous when anyone relies on government for anything.

President Bush, I think, has done much of this, for example No Child Left Behind and his faith based initiatives are good examples. These in and of themselves are not bad, but we must ask ourselves the question at what point do we need to let go of government to accomplish our goals?


Ah Will
I can tell that by using the tried & true lefty tactic, name calling, that you are a democrat through and through. Am I correct??
See the reason we keep bringing up clinton and his "good time years" administration IS, by God, the happy couple want back in the WH. You do get that don't you?
As for your checks & balances statement, so when the clinton administration fired 93 that was OK in the checks and balances department?
Ya know, it probably would have been better if Bush had come in and carried out a thorough house cleaning, there's the fault.

Liberty
Bravo, you didn't fail me.

Liberty
As I said, I am for the lesser of two evils and one is significantly worse than the other. I agree with everything you said, but realize that this cannot be changed at this time. There are simply too many socialists among us. I take action where I can. I have never voted for Mcain but he runs unapposed in the Republican primaries and if a democrat runs against him, they are always worse. Philosophically, I would vote out both parties. Realistically, that won't happen.

Quick edit!
Please kick your editor in the back of the chair to wake him/her up!

Quick edit!
Never mind. Forgive me for bugging all of you.

apoplectic
It's your choice, obviously. For me, I'm going to work like H*LL at all levels (federal, state and local) to get *real* conservatives into office. The socialists didn't get in office and elsewhere in our country, overnight. They got there because of all of our inattention. I never said it was going to be easy to turn this thing around, but look at the alternative. If we think things are the least bit bad now, I fear that we haven't seen anything. I personally think it is very doable, IF, Americans are willing to get off the sofa and get busy.

to everyone:
There's no place to run if our country goes down. We can't just start a new country somewhere, like our Founding Fathers did. This is IT, folks. Stand up for our country or as Patrick Henry said, kneel down and lick the hands that feed you and may God forget that ye were our countrymen. (paraphrased).


Liberty
In a worse case scenario, we see a break up of the union as it is now. The folks in NY will not be able to live with the folks in Oklahoma at the governmental level. The liberals will become so entrenched and violent in th eir ways and the conservatives will become so fed up with the liberals (and vice versa) that a split will occur. This may lead to another civil war of sorts, but at the pace we are in now, it may go that route. To be able to talk with the other side is key, and increasingly we are unable to effectivly do that.

Correction
I was paraphrasing Samuel Adams, not Patrick Henry.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Virginia Daddy
I actually think that government is going to get a lot more heavy-handed, as we move into the North American Union (ie. merger with Canada and Mexico)

will
You are talking like we still have control of our government. I do not think that is an illusion. I agree that the citizenry will not break up our union, but I think many of our public servants will cede it to 1st, regional government and next, world government.

The North American Union is scheduled to be tied up with a bow by 2010. It is far along in its construction, right now.

Will you please watch the videos I posted? Ron Paul's speech and also the one on the creation of the global union.
The Creation of the Global Union
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5790256003948876527&hl=en

oops again
The sentence should have read...

I think that is an illusion.

Will and Liberty
Will-- yes, but one thing that cannot be changed is human nature. I propose this not out of joy, but out of great sadness. And I do not think it is inevitable. Yes, our nation is a great melting pot, and that is good. But at what point does a Christian sacrifice his beliefs to live and allow homosexuality to be blatanly thrown at him when homosexuality is isn direct opposition to beliefs? At what point does the gay give in and take what the Christian proposes? Sure, there is middle ground, but will human nature allow us to get there? And such a result as a breaking up of the country is far down the line. But is it possible, yes, absolutely.

Liberty-- it may go that direction for a time, but splits will happen nonetheless. Again, how much are people truly willing to sacrifice?

The Right for big government
Conservatives who are politically serious, who understand that they want to govern, must be "big government" conservatives. Conservatives who love to write or read precious little essays about small government are not serious about politics. They may make great arguments and tug at the hearstrings of libertarians, but these folks have little to do with conservatism as the ideology of a movement focused on operating a government. Conservatives who take their responsibilities seriously understand that the power of government is what they need to bring about the sort of society they value--one in which the distinctions between right and wrong that Medved explains can in fact be enforced.

Medved's "contradictions" are politically vacuous; for a big government conservative the contradictions vanish once the romantic fantasy of a tiny, extremely limited government has been dismissed. Of course some posters denounce Medved as a "statist," not grasping that apart from statism conservatism is little more than a collection of debating points.

I note that conservatives always find plenty of things in the actual behavior of people to denounce and generally have fairly clear ideas about what they'd like to do to stop us all from behaving badly. Statist conservatism provides the solution to this problem. The European Right always understood this, but the American Right spent generations mucking around with all sorts of silly quasi-anarchistic opinions masquerading as defenses of individual liberty. So, I say, learn more about why you need to be statist conservatives. There's actually a rich legacy of ideas for you to draw on, if only you knew it!

Gestell
You assume that to be polically serious you must take into consideration the role of government in attaining your point of view.

You may be right in saying there is wisdom in statism, and that conservatives could learn from that. But you are incorrect to say that to argue for smaller government is of little value. Rather, it is the center of the debate between freedom and tyranny. It is essential to ask what role the government is to play in our lives, personally and publically. How far should the government go in its reach in our lives? How much can it tell what we can and cannot do? Is it right for it to tell us how to spend our money? How to protect ourselves while riding a bike? Can it tell us where to send our kids to school? How what we can eat? Or smoking? These are perhaps easy examples, but they make the point. The governments role in our personal lives should only go so far, and this is a huge part of the debate. And to assume government shuold be looked to for all answers, which it seems you would advocate, is dangerous, and we should be wary of such a solution.

Take a look at this new article
and tell me what you think. While you are reading it, consider the implications of what he is planning.

Homeland Security team to focus on U.S. terrorists

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-03-14-homegrown_N.htm?POE=NEWISVA

Gestell
You said, "The Right for big government
Conservatives who are politically serious, who understand that they want to govern, must be "big government" conservatives."

First of all, there is no "right" for big government. Where are you getting this from?

Secondly, there is no such thing as a "big government conservative". If you are for big government, then you are NOT a conservative. Conservatives believe in a limited Constitutional government. It is STATISTS that believe in big government.

There have always been a split in the Republican party between what used to be known as Rockefeller Republicans and Goldwater Republicans. Rockefeller Republicans were statists who believed in a large, all powerful federal government. Goldwater Republicans were conservatives who believed in a limited constitutional government and individual liberty.

It seems that not much has changed in this regard, except that statists are now trying to convince us that they own the conservative label.

reply to liberty and Virginia Daddy
My approach to this question is to look seriously at what conservatives appear to want--enforcement of traditional religious and moral values, maintenance of traditional norms and beliefs, and a strong and effective military. To get these things, conservatives need to become political realists, and political realism means a willingness to acquire and use the power of government. Medved gets part of this issue right with his awareness that there seems to be a contradiction between many of the social and cultural goals of conservatives and what he sees as a conservative belief in small, weak government. European conservatives have always understood the need for statism; the free market ideology is correctly called "neoliberalism" everywhere on the planet except in the US. If conservatives want to maintain American culture and social structure (e.g., traditional families, heterosexual marriage, and lots more), then they have to support a government powerful enough to coerce those whom conservatives see as undermining the values associated with our culture and society. If conservatives want to bring about a return to the good old days (as they imagine them), they need to back a powerful government. Try to think outside your own particular "small government" box; you'll get a different view of things.

will
The answer in a nutshell is YES. The vast majority was done by the states. That and local governments were where all the powers was supposed to be. The federal government was very limited as to their purpose, per the Constitution. As time goes by, the federal government takes over more and more, totally disregarding the Constitution. For example, not many know that under Bush, John Warner's Military Appropriations Bill was about more than just appropriations. In that bill, the federal government took control of each state's national guard.

Gestell
You appear to be an admirer of neo-conservatism. I will say again, such statism is contrary to the limited constitutional government and individual liberty that is the foundation of conservatism.

You said, "If conservatives want to maintain American culture and social structure (e.g., traditional families, heterosexual marriage, and lots more), then they have to support a government powerful enough to coerce those whom conservatives see as undermining the values associated with our culture and society."

No, actually the federal government has caused most of the problem. It is not logical to look to the entity that caused the problem, to solve the problem. The federal government was limited by the Constitution in what they were to be involved with. The rest of the powers were reserved to the states and the people.

Gestell, if you feel the need to "coerce" anyone, constitutionally, it needs to be done at the state and local levels. I personally do not see the need to force people to walk like little robots in my own shadow. If they do not infringe on my, or anyone else's liberty, they have the right as freemen to act as they choose.

Who was it that said... a government big enough to give you everything you want, is also big enough to take everything from you.

Gestell, I highly recommend to you that you take a class on the Constitution and start reading our Founding Fathers' letters and other of their writings.

will--another typo.. sorry
That and local governments were where all the powers WERE supposed to be.

gestell
To return to the good ol days, as you refer to them, I take to mean, solid family values, an education system unsurpassed by any other nation, low taxes, neighbors taking care of one another and not whining for the government to do it, no cradle-to-grave welfare, no socialized medicine, a ration of doctors to lawyers far better than today and indeed, doctors making house calls, love for country, love for serving one's nation, an appreciation of sacrifice, you know, the days until the spoiled flower children arose from under their rocks.

Reading your posts, I guess you think that from 1776 to 1969, we barely survived until liberalism arose to save us. A smaller government ensures that STATES take up the slack as was envisioned by our Founding Fathers. The Feds exist to ensure the security of the nation as a whole, not interfere in the lives of the people w/o undue cause.

I suggest you try reading the US Constitution, the Federalist papers, and the writings of Thomas Paine for a starter.

will
Central banks are part of it. When you get done watching that one and hopefully the other one on the Global Union, tell me, and I'll point you to another very well done video or two that speaks to this part, well.

Here are a few sites about Ron Paul:
http://www.ronpaulexplore.com/html/Issues_fs.html
http://www.myspace.com/congressmanronpaul

Archive of articles:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul-arch.html

GunnyG
Wow. :-) There's the kind of American I remember.

GunnyG
What you wrote gave ME a lot of hope. Thank you for that. It's nice to see such a great reminder that there are still some Americans who remember what this country is supposed to be all about.

Liberty
Meant to add the writings of Patrick Henry and Teddy Roosevelt as well.

In fact, I think TR was describing liberals when he wrote about the poor timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

replies to GunnyG and Liberty
I'm not describing my views at all here; what I'm trying to do is get at the real core of conservative political thought. In other words, given what conservatives say they want for our country, given the causes they support, the positions they take, and the people they so obviously loathe, I'm asking the question: what would it take to bring about the changes conservatives really seek? That's where I get the necessity for statism. In order to bring us back to whatever year GunnyG's retro fantasy is located in, government's got to do something about all those "liberation" movements, cultural changes, and such that typify the present day. That's why I say, the coercive power of government is needed and lots of it.

Actually, American political history is dominated by conflicts between the national government and the states that go right back to the Founding. (Hamilton vs. Jefferson, for example, among the Revolutionary generation). The Constitution and the Federalist papers don't solve the problem; they contribute to defining it. [Conservatives should really be calling, for example, for overturning judicial review, which means that they need to overturn many hundreds of Supreme Court decisions over the past two centuries.]

As long I'm onto the Supreme Court, it's clear that, for instance, Brown v. Board of Education was wrongly decided, and that Dred Scott v. Sandford was correctly decided, on the basis of the Constitution. It will take enormous exercises of governmental power to undo those and many other decisions.

One of you commented on neoconservatism, and I will say that, looking into consesrvatism from outside of it as I am, the neocons have at least a glimpse of the statist conservatism I'm talking about. Traditional conservatives should buy into statism; libertarians will not, but they're not conservatives anyway.

Gestell
Those "liberation" movements are on the fringe of mainstream society and have been around a long time. Ever heard of the "beatniks"? They were around in the 50's. The zoot-suiters? They were around in the 40's. What happened to propel idiots like the feminazis into the public eye was an obliging press. Once bogus studies, now debunked like the Kinsey report and relaxed standards, allowed by the silent majority, helped it all along. After all, can't have morals and standards that hold you to a certain lifestyle. Especially when you're part of Slick Willie's "If it feels good, do it" generation.

The separation of powers mantra
Some of the assumptions of our republic are not without problems. Too many Conservatives are quite willing to work the system and take care of their own, without a sense of social conscience or duty to the weaker members of society. In the Middle Ages, the Church and State, ie Crown, were far more intertwined and Social relief was indeed a legitimate part of the state's function.
As for how it plays out in a Secular State like our own, well history has not shown much good to come of it, yet I part company with the Ayn Rand types of cold calculating individualists who see the world as a Monopoly game rather than a call to serve and love our neigbor as ourselves.
Some tenets of the Medved Conservativism are a bit to self serving for those who reap the benefits of the nations economic system.
A lot of others, for many reasons are not so well supplied by this selective picnic.

Muscat
To say that the federal government has no constitutional basis for being involved in the welfare state, does not say that I personally do not think people who are temporarily down on their luck, should be helped. It is where this help should derive from that is the issue.

It is my belief that each of us has a personal responsibility to help each other. However, I have no right to force my opinion on anyone else. All I can do is to follow up my own belief with actions. Americans as a whole are a generous people. Until federal government decided to assume the function, people were helped through charities and churches. I think this is much preferable to what we have now. More money and actual personal help gets to the people that we're trying to get back on their feet and we do not create generations of welfare dependants.

This is how I was taught, Muscat:
If it is not ok for a person to steal money from another person and give it to another, it is likewise wrong for government to do the same, with the added benefit of force and imprisonment.

It made sense to me then and still does now. Have you ever read Davy Crockett's, "Not Yours to Give". It's about this subject and is very good.
http://www.house.gov/paul/nytg.htm


The problem with this article
This is one truly confused and rambling article. It belies the author's lack of understanding for what is conservatism. The core of conservatism lies in our belief that liberty exists for mature, responsible and virtuous adults. We believe that the constitution means what it says. Its power lies in its simplicity and brevity (The EU Constitution, by comparison is almost 600 pages long and comes with a codes that exceeds 6000 pages). Medved manufactures inconsistencies than only an an obfuscator would "perceive". For instance, there in no conflict with believing in the institution of marriage and seeing a problem with gay marriages. Marriage is not a legal right. It is a RELIGIOUS rite. Religions have forever refused to sanction homosexual matrimony. Conservatives believe that our Judeo-Christian society values the virtues of a society populated by married people who multiply. It is efficient. Homosexual marriages serve no useful to society and are not entitled to special recognition.

I am not going to go point by point. A true conservative sees the many problems with this article. It would really help if people who are not conservatives would stop referring to "us" conservatives. Michael Medved is not a conservative and so is not one of us. He is one of the many in the right wing punditocracy who are deconstructing conservatism to advance a Republican agenda. I just posted on this subject a few days ago if you want to better understand my point.

Good Dog
Right on, Dog. "Conservatives distinguish between right and wrong" (or words to that effect). But good people can disagree on what is right and wrong. A conservative observant Jew believes it is wrong to do labor on Saturday. A conservative observant Catholic believes it is wrong to use contraception. A conservative observant Hindu believes it is wrong to eat meat. And yet many decent conservative people would disagree with all of these positions. My problem with social conservatives is that so many of them want to force their abrupt vision of right and wrong on all the rest of us. Meanwhile, 1) My young gay neighbor has been generous and kind to elderly me: I cannot agree that he is a foul sinner. 2) My daily newspaper informs me that terrible people kill their two year-old children for crying or wetting their pants: I cannot agree that killing the child within six weeks of its conception would be worse than letting it be born into hell and become a sentient person so that it can suffer before it is killed. 3) I see on TV, in newspapers, and on these boards that many conservatives would put the Bible before science in the lab and in the schoolroom: I cannot agree that the human race should move backwards to the 15th century. But conservatives are trying to design a world controlled only by THEIR notion of right and wrong. I reserve the right to use the moral judgment that God gave me. Conservatives, however, find using one's own judgment immoral or amoral. There simply is no room in their world for people who see anything differently.

To Gestell
You seem not to understand Neoconservatism. For a brief summary you might google "Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception". Strauss was the University of Chicago professor who formulated Neoconservatism, the political philosophy that underlies our present administration. Two of his followers, BTW, were Paul Wolfowitz and Ahmad Chalabi. The tenets of Neoconservatism as Strauss held them are antithetical to democracy. I doubt that most Americans understood what they were voting for.

reply to lilly
IN reply to your comment on Good Dog: It's clear that you see conservative moral positions as I do: they are to be imposed on people, and conservtives do not--in fact cannot, if they want to be consistent--allow people to use their own moral judgment. The point is that there are correct moral judgments, and conservatives have a monopoly on them--as they see it.

In reply to your comment on my post: Neoconservatism has no big problem with a very strong, active government, as long as that government is acting on conservative principle. Of course, the question is how to define those principles. Neocons believe they have the answer, as do other kinds of conservatives. That's why they are in conflict with each other.

Lilly
You said, " I cannot agree that the human race should move backwards to the 15th century."

I don't see anyone who talked about rolling the human race back.... Principles however, are another thing. Are constitutional principles of liberty and the proper place/role of federal government still not as relevant today as they were then?

If not, why?

Gestell
You are wrong. Conservative principles do not require the weight of government control to see their fruition. In fact, it is just the opposite. They require government to get out of our business and act according to the constitution that they swore an oath to uphold.

Tell me, which of these principles requires a large, all powerful federal government to achieve:

- limited constitutional government
- personal privacy
- personal responsibility
- strong national defense
- fiscally responsible government
- individual liberty

Then, you go on and use the terms, neoconservatism and conservatism, interchangeably. They are quite different. There is nothing "conservative" about NEOCONS. The only thing they remotely share in common is with regard to a strong national defense. However, even with defense, there is strong disagreement. NEOCONS believe in nation-building, while traditionally, conservatives have not.

Gestell
What conservatives want is not enforcement from government: self self control and responsibility.

We argue that there are values that are right and true, and that it is up to each indiviudal, not the government, to uphold those.

And given a choice between what government intervention may be necessary, we would rather that come from the state level, not the federal. This is because we look at what the Constitution lays out and the intent of the Founders. For almost two centuries, this model worked quite well, and it is now being usurped because of arguments like your own.

$.02
It seems to me some people make the mistake of assuming Medved is a conservative. He is just as conservative as Bush is which really is. Anyone who thinks Bush is conservative really needs to find the true definition of what a conservative is. True conservatives need to take over the Republican party or break away and start a Conservative American Party. Clean house in the primaries and get rid of the Rhinos and the leadership that lacks the cajones to lead and stand up to the leftist and moderates.

Neoconservatism’s deadly influence
This is the best article I have read to describe what the Neoconservative agenda is about. Do you think they have destroyed the conservative movement? Do you think this is why NEOCON President Bush has expanded governement more than any other in our history?

FREELIBERTY-Neoconservatism’s most prominent adherent wants it to be linked to Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s New Deal socialism and, because of its rejection of “isolationism,” to be further identified as a champion of meddling in the affairs of other nations. The opposite of isolationism, of course, is interventionism, a tactic favored by all neoconservatives. Earlier, in 1983, Kristol claimed that “a conservative welfare state is perfectly consistent with the neoconservative perspective.” Old-line conservatives would justly label the phrase “conservative welfare state” a classic oxymoron. By 1993, in a piece he authored for the Wall Street Journal, the Godfather lauded Social Security, Medicare, food stamps, and Medicaid, even a cash allowance for the children of unwed mothers. Virtually any socialist program can count on support from the neoconservative camp.

As for interventionist meddling, neoconservative Charles Krauthammer candidly presented the movement’s attitude in a 1989 article appearing in Kristol’s journal, The National Interest. Boldly calling for the integration of the United States, Europe, and Japan, he yearned for a “super-sovereign” state that would be “economically, culturally, and politically hegemonic in the world.” Not satisfied with such a novel creation, he further urged a “new universalism [which] would require the conscious depreciation not only of American sovereignty but of the notion of sovereignty in general.” And he added: “This is not as outrageous as it sounds.” Maybe not to a neoconservative, but a real conservative and especially a constitutionalist wouldn’t hesitate for a moment in labeling such ideas “outrageous.”

READ MORE http://www.controlcongress.com


The Neville Chamberlains of Liberty
Medved argues that "From each according to his need to each according to his contribution" is superior to "From each according to his ability to each according to his need".

Both are viciously anti-individualist. The market takes care of who gets rewarded and does it based on individual choices made by people paying their own hard-earned money. Medved's (Koch's) principle keeps the power to dispense rewards with the state, it simply changes the beneficiaries through regulation of the economy.

You are either pro free market, or you are not.
You are either pro free association, or you are not.
You are either pro privacy, or you are not.
You are either pro private property, or you are not.

Modern liberals and conservatives agree - The welfare state is here to stay, the regulation of industry is here to stay, the control of sexual behavior is here to stay, the control of guns is here to stay, the control of speech is here to stay, invasions of privacy are here to stay, the seizure of private property is here to stay and most importantly -

Big government is here to stay.

They even agree on who who benefits - the answer is "not you". Benefits are reserved for the party elites.

If you want to know why Republicans were massacred in the last election it is because the small minority of people who actually believe in freedom stayed away from the polls.

The Republicans lost the liberty vote because slogans are not enough. Sometimes you have to act on the principles you espouse. Bush made government bigger and more intrusive and will now turn over his leviathan to the Democrats who will make it bigger and more intrusive yet.


Conservative Values are IMMORAL
On a previous show, Michael made a number of comments on homelessness. Mr. Medved noted that homeless people drive down the property values of otherwise hard-working individuals. He also noted that homeless people should either be imprisoned (eliminated) or put in to shelters (controlled). He took issue with a caller who indicated that he fed the homeless on a weekly basis. Even though the homeless this caller was feeding were children and Vietnam veterans.

Mr. Medved’s position clearly reinforces my belief that the typical conservative point of view is both hypocritical and immoral. Conservatives values are squarely on animal modalities. Primarily those of protection (of wealth), elimination of threats (to their positions and possessions through any and all means) and to a lesser degree control (control of their problems). The focus of their energies is protecting their positions, their assets and their wealth. They have no humanity and they typically place very low value on the souls of human beings.

If I am not mistaken although Mr. Medved professes to be Jewish. And like most hypocrites he behaves contrary to his religion and his god. Mr. Medved sees no value in feeding the homeless because such an action does not “eliminate” the problem. Eliminating Mr. Medved’s problem (i.e. protection of his property value) is more important than some moral idea like compassion - despite the fact that the value placed upon such an intangible is to be sought:

[If] you offer your compassion to the hungry and satisfy the famished creature, then shall your light shine in darkness. [Isaiah 58:10) .

Assuming that the homeless person was not Jewish, Mr. Medved may be have been able to avoid the teachings of his own religion:

“The highest level of all is the one who supports the hand of a Jew who is falling and gives to him (1) a gift or (2) a loan or (3) creates a partnership with him or (4) creates (invents) work for him in order to strengthen his hand, before he becomes dependent on asking [for assistance]. Concerning this, it says, ‘And you shall strengthen him as a stranger and as a resident-settler that he should live among you’ (Leviticus 25:35) that is, support him before he falls and becomes needy.” (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Gifts to the Poor 10:7)

However, Mr. Medved made no distinction between a Jewish and Non-Jewish homeless person. He simply wants them either eliminated or controlled in a such a way that his material position is protected.

As I noted on my blog (http://thebentblade.blogspot.com) previously, conservatives not only seek to eliminate their problems without giving any consideration to human souls, they often create the problems through their failure to share their wealth, or by denying people the means to solve the problem on their own accord. Without complicating this post with a long social dialogue, I’ll just briefly mention what I believe are the root causes of homelessness. These would include primarily a lack of affordable rental housing, an increase in poverty, a decline in social programs (including public assistance) and mental illness. And note that a moral person has values placed on things like compassion, love, sharing, caring, self-sacrifice, creating joy and happiness. And that animals focus on what is relevant in the material world - including position, property, and wealth (especially accumulation). In light of these differing values, I wonder which side Mr. Medved falls on? I also wonder if (through some calamity in his life or even some global calamity) Mr. Medved would like to be treated as he would treat the homeless? If a meteor struck the earth tomorrow and Mr. Medved was left without a cave to live in and no means of creating any wealth for himself and his family (food, etc.) would he like a nice jail cell somewhere? I wonder if Mr. Medved was not wealthy and established in a post apocalyptic world if he would frown upon a hand-out of food from a kind and compassionate human? While some would like to hope that Mr. Medved is (in fact) placed in that position some day, I hope instead that he becomes more human; that he considers the plight of less fortunate people, that he becomes more compassionate; and that he grows spiritually and not materialistically. Good Luck Mr. Medved!

reply to HAC5X3
Your assessment of conservatives placing little value on the soul is unfounded. Its conservatives who give more of their time and their earnings to charitable causes than liberals. They believe in acting privately from their personal conviction, not publicly from a cold, top-down prescribed social program.

Comparing conservatives to selfish animals because their politics are practical doesn't make sense. You know that the benefits of capitalism are much more than self-interested protection. It also happens to grow wealth for the greater society much better than the socialist model. It provides jobs and opportunities, and to try to put a developed country under another system is just self-delusional. If you care for the plight of the homeless, you need to focus on practical results, which emerge when we promote the values of productivity and individual responsibility.

If a homeless person is of sound mind and body, they have no business taking up public space at the cost of people who are responsible for their own homes and living. Its fundamentally unfair, and this is undercutting morality. This type of homeless person has the faculties to seek out help from the many private charitable organizations who are more than willing to assist them. Conversely, for the homeless that are really unable to take care of themselves, they should be at a shelter or an institution! What is so wrong with wanting what is best for society as a whole as well as what is best for the individual?

too hard on Saddam
I think Michael is too hard on Saddam Hussein. It may be understandable in his case due to the fact that Saddam launched Scud Missles on Israel in Gulf War one. Well do not forget that the Isreali Air force also attacked Iraq prior to that.
Saddam Hussein was no ignoramus and compared to the other Arab leaders, he had a very democratic pro western cultural agenda under which religious liberty was available to Christian and even Jewish believers in Iraq.
Admittedly were I a Jew I would not want to live in Iraq, but it was much better under the Baathists than it is now, as I understand the Christians are fleeing in the thousands---- to Syria! Makes you wonder if we really do get the true story on what goes down over there.
I'd encourage anyone who would look into it to read some of the Late Saddam Hussein's essays and speeches, "if you can find any".
For some reason, he is so bad that we dare not read him speak for himself.
Perhaps because he might actually open the myopic eyes of many Americans to another version of the Middle East Struggle?

Right and Wrong? It Is To Laugh.
I appreciate Medved's effort to find a thread which can reconcile the obvious glaring contradictions in what modern conservatives call "thinking." Certainly, no one else has been able to discern any consistency. Unfortunately, his conclusion just makes things more confusing.

The idea that "Above all, conservatives feel impelled to make clear distinctions between right and wrong." is ludicrous. Conservatives care not a bit about actual right and wrong, but they do care passionately about their fantasy of right and wrong. They have confused what is "right" with "self-righteousness." Allow me one comparison.

The war is Iraq is considered a "right" thing even though innocent lives have and will definitely be lost, because there is the potential for much greater "right" things to develop as a result. The deaths of 100,000+ innocent Iraqis is sad but required for the greater long term good.

Embryonic Stem Cell research has great potential for great good and for a lot of right things to happen as well. But the destruction of a teaspoonful of embryos somehow makes such research a moral "wrong".

These two positions simply cannot be reconciled. Both endeavors have potential to create long term benefit and both will cost human life. For Medved and his ilk to differentiate between them proves that they have no interest in actual right and wrong. Their interest is in self righteousness, in thinking they can justify any kind of craziness by simply folding their hands over their breasts, closing their eyes and chanting, "I am right, I am right, I am right."

What a bunch of self serving twaddle.




Jack
Was Hiroshima right?

What about Lincoln's decision to try to keep the Union together? Was that right?

Embryonic stem cell research is too easy, mostly because how many other ways are there to get the same results without killing embryos? There are numerous. Researchers can take from many organs to find stem cells. Why do we need embryos?

You are correct to say right and wrong are not always straight forward, but a choice must be made. And to make the choice, many things must be weighed. Iraq is tough, as is the entire war on terror, but given the opportunity, the terrorists would kill as many Americans as possible. So, should we turn the other way and not do anything?

Right and Wrong? It Is To Laugh.
Virginia Guy

Was Hiroshima right? Hmm. Maybe. But was Nagasaki necessary? I doubt that very, very much.

The issue isn’t embryonic stem cell research alone; it is the reality that stem cell research is much less harmful to human beings than a needless war in Iraq. All in the guise of what is “right”, Bush determined that a teaspoonful of embryos (that will be disposed of anyway) is of more value than 100,000 living, breathing humans. And those who decided that the research is “wrong” but the war is “right” cannot even understand why their position is so ludicrous.

And the issue isn’t tough choices either. The issue is that when you see things in terms of “right and wrong,” it blinds you to the reality at hand. For example, you have set up this false dichotomy: either we fight in Iraq or we do nothing, as if there are no other choices. Your sense of what is “right” has led you to miss an entire world of alternatives. Why? Because you have already determined that the war is right, even though any kind of rational analysis tells you it isn’t.

And finally, living in this fantasy world of black and white, right and wrong, always leads to getting things backwards. People decide what is right, and then they fix the evidence and rationale around what has already been determined. That is a-rational. Rational people look at the evidence and decide what is best, and are never afraid to change their minds when new evidence is presented. Those who have decided that tactic A is “right” can’t change their direction, because that would be an admission that Tactic A was wrong.

That’s why Medved is wrong. Conservatives don’t care about right and wrong; they care about the fantasy of right and wrong, where the good guys always wear white hats and the bad guys, usually, have thick accents.

By the way, this si also why conservatives are under-represented in higher education. Higher education requires a lot of backtracking and changing your mind. Conservatives don't do that.

I wrote a practical example...
I wrote a practical example (unknowingly) of what Mr Medved wrote here:

http://gregmc.townhall.com/g/a9704d8c-b990-4c6a-a333-aaa89c7d8a7c&comments=true#comments

Comments are very welcome. Especially from the lefties.

Mikmc, or whomever
Unfortunately,

Your rant, tinged with bigotry, has almost nothing to do with Medved's point. Could you maybe explain why you think it does?
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