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Friday, November 03, 2006
Rebecca Hagelin :: Townhall.com Columnist
Stem cells: Where the real hope lies
by Rebecca Hagelin
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Will Congress pass Obamacare by the end of the year?

In the two weeks since I first wrote about the human-cloning amendment on the ballot in Missouri, the debate has really heated up.

Actor Michael J. Fox grabbed headlines by taping a TV ad asking voters there to approve Amendment 2. The amendment is designed “to ensure that Missouri patients have access to [embryonic] stem cell therapies.” These therapies, we’re led to believe, will bring cures for terrible diseases such as the Parkinson’s that, sadly, has stricken Fox and many others.

Then the ever-brave and straight-talking Rush Limbaugh spoke out against this ad, surmising that Fox had deliberately gone off the medication that helps control his tremors (something that Fox himself, in his autobiography, admitted doing before testifying to Congress in 1999). And all this, Rush noted, in the service of an illusory “cure” (as I’ll explain in more detail below). Rush courageously endured a hailstorm of criticism for -- yet again -- giving voice to an uncomfortable truth.

Meanwhile, Missourians Against Human Cloning, a group of state-based scientists, doctors, medical professionals and researchers, has run ads exposing the insidious science of embryonic cloning and research. The ads feature actors James Caviezel (“The Passion of the Christ”), Patricia Heaton (“Everybody Loves Raymond”) and St. Louis Cardinals pitcher Jeff Suppan.

Why all the high-profile attention for a single ballot question in one state? Because we’re debating a bedrock issue, my friends -- one that means the difference between life and death for some very tiny (but fully human) members of our human family.

First, though -- since we’re dealing with an arena of science that’s extraordinarily complex -- let’s get a little Stem Cell 101. Dr. Kelly Hollowell, a molecular and cellular pharmacologist, is a bio-technology patent attorney at the firm of Williams Mullen. She spoke to an audience at The Heritage Foundation last year and summarized the science this way:

“Embryonic stem cells … are the unspecialized cells that form the basic building blocks for all of the 220 specialized cell types in your body. By harvesting and manipulating these master cells, researchers hope to treat diseases. Cur­rently the primary sources for embryonic stem cells are aborted fetuses and donated and unused embry­os housed in IVF (in vitro fertilization) facilities.

“To obtain embryonic stem cells, an embryo is formed and allowed to mature for five to seven days. The inner mass of the stem cells is then removed, plated and treated with chemicals to become specialized cell types. The problem is that in this process the embryo itself is destroyed.”

Considering that the embryos are, in fact, human beings, their destruction is, indeed, a monumental problem. But in an age of legalized abortion, many people are unwilling to stand up for them. Even if the embryos are human, they say, look at the cures we’ll be getting. How can we turn our backs on scientific progress?

To which we must respond: What “progress”?

As a trip to the Web site of the National Institutes of Health confirms, there is none. Oh, advocates have lots of “hope,” all right. But they have nothing -- that’s right, nothing -- to show for it. Ask Dr. Hwang Woo-suk, the South Korean scientist who resigned last December from his post at the Seoul National University when it was revealed that he had faked his alleged breakthroughs.

Follow the money, folks, because believe me, if embryonic stem cells offered any real hope, private companies would be lining up around the block to fund it. Sure, some would avoid it because of the ethical problems, but not all. That’s why the proponents of embryonic stem-cell research are beating the drums for taxpayer money. It’s their only chance.

Fortunately, we don’t have to turn our backs on stem-cell cures entirely. Other types of stem cells are helping us make substantial progress against disease -- and without any of the ethical quandaries associated with embryonic stem cells. Just this week, it was announced that British scientists have grown the world’s first artificial human liver. And what did they use? Tissue created from umbilical cord blood, taken just minutes after birth.

Adult stem cells are another alternative -- one that preserves life and, well, actually works. According to NIH:

“Adult stem cells, such as blood-forming stem cells in bone marrow (called hematopoietic stem cells, or HSCs), are currently the only type of stem cell commonly used to treat human diseases. Doctors have been transferring HSCs in bone marrow transplants for over 40 years. More advanced techniques of collecting, or ‘harvesting,’ HSCs are now used in order to treat leukemia, lymphoma and several inherited blood disorders.”

Dr. Hollowell points out: “For more than two decades, we have been treating more than 58 different types of diseases using adult stem-cell research. Some of the most startling advancements using adult stem cells have come in treating Parkinson’s disease, juvenile diabetes and spinal cord injuries.”

So, with such promising cures available without the taking of human life, why would Missourians -- or anyone, for that matter -- want to pour millions into embryonic stem-cell research?

Missourians deserve to enter the voting booth armed with the truth. And the bottom line is this: Embryonic stem-cell research is an abomination and a fraud.

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About The Author
Rebecca Hagelin is a public speaker on the family and culture and the author of the new best seller, 30 Ways in 30 Days to Save Your Family.
 
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Yes!
This is exactly what I wrote about in my essay: "Embryonic Stem Cells: 21st Century Snake Oil", on my blog (click my name) months ago. By now, it's on page 2.

Once again, ahead of the cutting edge, and another shameless plug.


Oh, goody
An article about stem cells, and she's made it so easy to counter! Let's start with the obvious:

"Cur­rently the primary sources for embryonic stem cells are aborted fetuses and donated and unused embry­os"

Half right. The only source of embryonic stem cells are embryos (4 to 5 days old) from IVF clinics. A fetus is too far along in its development. By the time a woman knows she's pregnant, it's too late to get any embryonic stem cells from the fetus. The abortion issue has nothing to do with this.

Which Dr. Hollowell confirms in her very next paragraph:
"To obtain embryonic stem cells, an embryo is formed and allowed to mature for five to seven days."

As for the embryos, yes, they are destroyed in the process, but they're going to be destroyed anyway. A couple using IVF produces several embryos, only a few of which are implanted. What happens to the rest? Well, they're stored in a freezer, then destroyed after a certain time, or when the parents give their OK. So, if the embryos are used for research, they're destroyed. If they aren't used for research, they're destroyed. Can someone please tell me why one process is evil, and the other is OK?

Wait, there's more
"As a trip to the Web site of the National Institutes of Health confirms, there is none. Oh, advocates have lots of “hope,” all right. But they have nothing -- that’s right, nothing -- to show for it."

Well, of course. The first embryonic stem cell line was only reported in 1998. Adult stem researchers have had a lot more time to look for cures, so of course embryonic stem cell research is far behind.

The anti-Amendment 2 commercial with James Caviezel and Patricia Heaton claims (correctly) that any cure involving embryonic stem cells is at least 15 years away. And a cure for cancer is probably at least 40 years away. Does that mean we stop looking?

It is true that adult stem research has a lot of potential. Proponents of ESC research have no problem with ASC research. But the potential for embryonic stem cells goes far beyond adult stem cells because they are pluripotent, that is, they can develop into any cell type in the body; that's what they do. Adult stem cells, including cells from the umbilical cord, have some plasticity (can turn into different tissue types), but they're limited in the types of tissues they can become. Pancreatic cells, for example, can't be made from adult stem cells. Embryonic SC's do not have this problem.

The time frame for embryonic stem cell research has been overhyped by many people, including a certain South Korean scientist, but the potential has not. Abandoning ESC research because it's taking longer than expected would be like abandoning Iraq to the insurgents because it's a tougher fight than expected.

Now for the business question
"Follow the money, folks, because believe me, if embryonic stem cells offered any real hope, private companies would be lining up around the block to fund it."

Really? As was mentioned before, any cure is probably at least 15 years away. What company is going invest money, and then wait fifteen years for any return? Some are, but we're talking about profit-oriented companies with an obligation to their stockholders. They're not going to put large amounts of money into that long-term of an investment.

This sort of long-term investment is exactly what government research money is there for. It wouldn't be the first time that government money was used to fund research into an area that free enterprise could then take over and make marketable. In fact, most of the time, that's exactly how it works in this country.

Last one, I promise!
Well, until I get some responses, anyway (I know they're coming).

Rush Limbaugh must be some kind of contortionist, because every other week, he manages to stuff his foot in his mouth, like he did on this issue. The Chinese acrobats have nothing on him.

And he may want to stay away from scientific issues in the future. It's obvious from this and other views that he knows very little about them.

I'll stick with Keith Olbermann, thanks.

Well Frey, you're right
about only one thing. You'll get responses.

I'm not sure what your point is in the first post. You end up pointing out that Dr. Hollowell is correct and then you point out that IVF embryos will be destroyed anyway. Some of us are unsure about the whole ethics of creating a life only to destroy it - as a society we're more careful with the embryos of a top producing milk cow than we are with a couple trying to concieve via IVF - but the argument that it's going to be destroyed anyway is a red herring. You're going to die anyway at some point - why not donate your heart to someone who might (or then again might not) serve humanity better than you are?

As for the argument about how long it will take or the money, companies will and frequently do work on projects that will take more than 15 years. There are private companies that follow research just for the sake of research and know up front that they might learn something that may be useful somewhere, sometime - but maybe not. And private companies will fund research at colleges and universities on the same basis. Believe it or not, that is one reason drugs in this country cost more than they do in other countries - our drug companies have substantial R&D budgets. Right now, drug companies are doing enormous research into geriatric drugs. Some of these projects may take more that 20 years to fully develop. But the government has decided that the mis-begotten Medicare program should include precription drug coverage. Companies are all about finding markets and if one appears, products will rush in (albeit with the FDA regulations at a snails pace) to fill it. Don't you suppose that if some company thought there was really a cure in embryonic stem cells they would rush in to capitalize on it? Companies have the ability to do someting politicians will never be able to do - look past the next election cycle.

As to the Limbaugh comments, how is he a contortionist? He said what he meant and meant what he said. If you listen to what he said instead of what you wish he said or instead of what you can interpret he said so you can be outraged about it, he's correct.

You seem to have bought the snake-oil promulgated by the pro-abortion crowd. This issue does have to do with the abortion debate. The question in the minds of the abortionists is not whether there is a cure out there using embryonic stem cells. They need to push their agenda that human life is devalued. An embryo is not really human life so it's OK to destroy it. A fetus isn't really human life so we can destroy it. An old, sick person isn't really human anymore the way we would want life to be so we can euthanize it. And the excuse is always the same - we may find a cure from the embryos so that will make it OK. We may eliminate unwanted babies so abortion is OK. We may help end human suffering so euthanasia is OK. The whole "greater good" argument sounds suspiciously like communism - another ideology that holds human life in contempt.

The really puzzling thing to me is that the pro-abortion crowd is so often aligned with the animal rights crowd. Other than pushing an agenda to completely devalue human life, why is it not OK to make a rat uncomfortable, let alone kill it in research, but it is OK to kill a human being? Why does some rare fly have the right to exist under federal protection at great expense to whole communities but human beings can be thrown in the ash can? If the destruction of humans in the hope of some kind of cure (maybe - we don't know) is so good, why are you not volunteering yourself? Or is it kind of like Osama bin Laden - suicide bombers are OK as long as it's not me? Why can we have empathy for every living thing except human life? That's the question.

Thank you...Mr. Right

Why can we have empathy for every living thing except human life? That's the question...and a good one!

Mr. Right makes
some very good arguments, good comments.

1) Not one person has been cured by embryonic stem cells.

2) Adult stem cells are helping treat over 72 different diseases.

3) Missouri's Constitutional Amendment #2, if passed, bans civil remedies for individuals coerced or deceived into surrendering their eggs or early stage children.

4) Amendment #2 declares that human blastocysts (very early-stage human organisms) and eggs "obtained for stem cell research must be donated with voluntary and informed consent, documented in writing." However, the initiative imposes no criminal penalties for a violation of this provision.

5) This initiative opens a door to "Pandora's Box", places God's creations in a petrie dish, to be utilized, damaged and destroyed at will and is just another step to distance God from humanity.

6) This initiative DOES NOT ban human cloning, it bans only the implantation into a human uterus, and supposedly bans the survival of cloned humans.

7) This initiative permits the buying and selling of human eggs, sperm and human embryos.

8) This initiative contains provisions overriding existing state law and exempting doctors and researchers from any lawsuits arising from their research - - even if people die.

9) The entities supporting this initiative know that if the researchers do not seek federal funds, they are then exempt from federal rules and accountability.

10) The passing of this initiative would be a change to the Missouri Constitution, a change that will open the door to further issues regarding the sanctity of live, allows for the destruction of embryos (our children), and opens a door for future funding with our tax dollars.

What has this nation become? Why do people allow themselves to be swayed by Hollywood type entities who haven't even read the full initiative? Why do we kill our future children, gifts from God, then allow illegals with no allegiance to us to flood our country? Are we so warped by anti-Christian liberal gibberish that we cannot see the truth - that such as Missouri Constitutional Amendment #2 is just another way to open the door to experiments of which Josef Mengele would be proud?

To be over-dramatic, I want you to consider that an anti-Christ situation is not just a prediction, it is coming - a time when human life no longer has any value - a time when the human soul wails.

Oh Goodie
You said, "Can someone please tell me why one process is evil, and the other is OK?"

Answer: Neither is OK!

As for, "They are all going to be destroyed either way," so are we all! Does the fact that each of us will certainly die in a few decades after birth give anyone the right to kill us because they imagine our bodies might prove to be more useful dead than alive?

If you cannot grasp the sacredness of human life, from conception to old age, can you explain why any questions regarding it concern you at all?

from a high school senior -
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0067.html

a type one diabetic, wearing a pump. Here is her view. Would she take an "embryonic" solution?

No.

Federal Funding hinders research
Federal funding of research can be the major obstacle that delays breakthroughs in so many areas. Researchers with Federal funds have no incentive to produce results. Why, because results mean an end to the funding. There are plenty of examples of scientists suckling from the Federal Teat in universities all over America who promise results if they just get a little more time.

Private research gets results faster because at some point, funding will stop if the cost ratio gets too high.

Mr. Right
"the argument that it's going to be destroyed anyway is a red herring. You're going to die anyway at some point - why not donate your heart to someone..."

With a bit of luck, I've got about forty years left. Years with my wife, years raising our kids, years of writing stories, years of travel, etc. A rich, full life.

Suppose you gave an embryo forty years. Fine, what does it have? Forty years in a freezer. Anything else? Nope, just forty years in a freezer. No activity, no consciousness.

"They (pro-abortionists) need to push their agenda that human life is devalued. An embryo is not really human life so it's OK to destroy it. A fetus isn't really human life so we can destroy it."

Maybe some people feel that way. Obviously you feel that an embryo and fetus are equivalent. But that's not quite right. Personally, I used to be pro-choice, but had to change my view, since I could not reconcile with the fact that an abortion is the destruction of a human life. A fetus, with a bit of luck, will be born, will grow up and become an adult, with a whole lifetime of experiences. In that sense, a fetus and a baby are pretty much the same. They both have a whole lifetime of potential ahead of them.

An embryo is different, because an embryo will stay an embryo, forever. IT WILL NEVER GROW UP. Not into an adult, not into a child, not into a baby, not even into a fetus. Leaving aside from the fact that it's frozen, an embyro has no sensory organs, no brain, no nerves. It can't think, feel, or react, except on a cellular level. And it will stay that way. This is the life you're defending. For which you are apparently willing to let probably thousands of adults die through the diseases that ESC research can help cure.

"Companies have the ability to do someting politicians will never be able to do - look past the next election cycle."

Most companies can't look past the next fiscal quarter. The very nature of the corporation emphasizes short-term profit. I'm a long-time investor, so I know.

Besides, if politicians are never to look past the next election cycle, how do you explain that so many want to fund Star Wars? The Airborne Laser being a possible (and very cool) exception, we won't have an effective system for another couple of decades. Those politicians are quite capable of thinking long-term. And why fund Star Wars? To save lives.


Why not spend tax dollars on...
Hey, Frey, let's start spending tax dollars on Star Trekish teleportation devices? Maybe, just maybe, in 200 years, the technology will be viable, so why not take money away from PROVEN technology and toss it at the faciful "beam me up, Scotty" device?

Or maybe we should toss money at a magical hurricane shield. Just think of all the Katrina victems of the future that could be saved if only we figured out the proper incantation to protect everyone from such natural disaster! Screw research that has made progress to cure, say, various cancers, we need a hurricane shield!

Today, RIGHT NOW, there are almost 80 different illnesses that are treated with ASCs, among them are the only known treatment for sickle cell anemia as well as the only 2 known cases where "permanent" paralysis has been reversed. There are also more than 1000 MORE treatments currently in the test phase, many of which not even looking for more test patients (i.e. on the verge of gaining FDA approval).

On the other hand, exactly ZERO illnesses have ever been treated by ESCs -- even in a lab setting. ZERO treatments are under test. Hell, ESC scientists are still trying to figure out how to prevent the ESCs from either being rejected by their lab rats, or causing those rats to litterally explode because of the huge tumors ESCs cause. So far the only thing that ESCs has ever produced are dead rats. To say that ESC research has produced reason for "hope" for all these fantastic cures is the same as saying Star Trek has produced reason for "hope" for that teleportation device.

In short, why should tax payers take money from proven science and instead plop it in a science that hasn't yet shown any reason for hope, and very well may never produce anything? We're already saving lives with the research we're funding now. Not even one rat has been even CLOSE to saved with what you want us to waste our money on.

Could ESCs produce cures some time in the future? Maybe. Just like someday I might also win the lottery. Perhaps my lottery tickets are also something you think tax payers should fund, as well? I promise to donate 50% of any winnings to your beloved ESC research, so gimmie gimmie gimmie!

Deornwulf
"Researchers with Federal funds have no incentive to produce results. Why, because results mean an end to the funding."

Actually, results mean funding for the researcher's next project, because every researcher has to constantly prove himself capable of producing results. I've seen this myself from three years in grad school, studying microbiology. Researchers that don't produce find their funding drying up very quickly. I would call that incentive. The saying "Publish or perish" is 100% true.

Frey: Re: Star Wars
You, and many others, seem to miss one BIG onion in your enchilada. Star Wars and other defense projects are constitutionally appropriate expenditures of government funds, as they're part of the mandated role of military defense.

Nowhere in the Constitution is there authority for the federal government to spend money on healthcare.

And don't throw up the smokescreen about the Missouri issue being at the state level, as Star Wars and defense are federal issues so by default your comaprison to stem cell research neccessitates the argument being at the fed level.

As to whether or not it's appropriate at the individual state level, that is dependant on the individual state's constitution ( and the follishness of the voters).

vineyard1
So, does she speak for all diabetics? If she doesn't want to use a cure for her moral reasons, that's fine, I respect that. It's her call. As for everyone else, well, it should be their call. You don't have the right to deny it to everyone else based on your own narrow values.

By the way, (once again) embryonic stem cells are indeed more effective than adult stem cells, contrary to what was said in the piece.

BrianR
Good point about the Constitution, but I'm still unclear on the distinction. In the case of Star Wars, the government is putting money into a long-term project to protect American lives. In the case of ESC research, the government would put money into a long-term project to save American lives. And considering that the diseases being looked at kill thousands every year, and nuclear missiles from rogue states have killed, well, no one, the later investment would seem the better one.

"Nowhere in the Constitution is there authority for the federal government to spend money on healthcare."

No requirement, maybe, but no authority? Where do you get that from? The government funds healthcare research all the time.

Jude
"You said, "Can someone please tell me why one process is evil, and the other is OK?"

Answer: Neither is OK!"

So, are you outside IVF clinics protesting the throwing away of old embryos? Or do you contribute to a fund that will pay for the storage of frozen embryos for, well, ever? (Because that would really impress me.)

This thing or whatever
ok... embryonic stem cells have alot of potential were just begining research and its people like you who are preventing advancement the author of this article can suck my junk

Frey: Yes, they do
In this case, let's restrict the conversation to the federal G to avoid confusion.

You're right, the fed G does fund medical things all the time, and in all cases it's unconstitutional. The Constitution clearly spells out the authority of the G, and if it's not in there they have no authority to do it. The document is a limitation of G powers, as it clearly states: any authority not specifically granted to the Feds is reserved to the states or the People.

So they can fund weaponry as military defense is a clear mandate, but to fund healthcare -- or for that matter Katrina relief, money for 9/11 widows or any of that type of thing -- clearly exceeds the authority of the fed G.

Beowulfe
"Hey, Frey, let's start spending tax dollars on Star Trekish teleportation devices? Maybe, just maybe, in 200 years, the technology will be viable, so why not take money away from PROVEN technology and toss it at the faciful "beam me up, Scotty" device?"

Actually, the transporter device from Star Trek is scientifically impossible, at least the way they portray it (darned laws of physics!). Embryonic stem cell research is not some pie-in-the-sky fantasy, it's the real thing. Ask any reputable biologist or doctor.

Besides, couldn't you use the same argument for any new break-through? The airplane, the steam engine, gene therapy, penicillin, all of those were unproven in the beginning. By your logic, we shouldn't have bothered.

"In short, why should tax payers take money from proven science and instead plop it in a science that..."

By proven science, I assume you mean adult stem cell research. That won't happen. ASC research shows a good amount of promise, too. No one is going to abandon it.

"Today, RIGHT NOW, there are almost 80 different illnesses that are treated with ASCs...On the other hand, exactly ZERO illnesses have ever been treated by ESCs.."

I believe I addressed this already:
"Well, of course. The first embryonic stem cell line was only reported in 1998. Adult stem researchers have had a lot more time to look for cures, so of course embryonic stem cell research is far behind."

Saying that ASC research is better that ESC research because it has produced cures is like pitting me against Florence Griffith Joyner (rest in peace) in the 200 yard dash, giving me a 180 yard head start, and then saying I'm the better runner because I came in first.

"Could ESCs produce cures some time in the future? Maybe. Just like someday I might also win the lottery"

If the lottery had the same odds as ESC research, I'd be playing every day, and would be a very rich man very quickly.

BrianR
"So they (the government) can fund weaponry as military defense is a clear mandate, but to fund healthcare -- or for that matter Katrina relief, money for 9/11 widows or any of that type of thing -- clearly exceeds the authority of the fed G."

Really? Well, they've been doing it for decades; shouldn't someone have sued by now?

Frey
An embryo given forty years in a natural environment will develop into a human being, God willing with the same full and rich life you have. The fact that we manipulate egg cells and sperm cells outside normal functions makes them no less human. As a matter of fact, we are trying to create human life through IVF. What then gives us the right to decide which one lives and which one dies? Deciding to harvest a bunch of eggs from a woman and then fertilizing them to create embryos is exactly the same process that is used to create a human life. At the moment of conception, the genetic code embedded in those single cells has already determined what the hair color will be, what the eyes will look like, the color of the skin and every other thing that makes humans unique. Why is it OK to kill some of them? In my view of morality, it is not.

So no, bad as I feel for those who may perish before a cure can be found, I don't condone killing embryos for research.

As for companies and their ability and willingness to look forward, you may be an investor. I work with dozens of companies on long range business and strategic planning. Yes, in order to keep investors happy we need to maintain current profitability because it is the investors that are looking for a get-rich-quick scheme. In the companies with whom I work, we give a nod to that so that investment monies stay in the pool but I've never worked on a plan that didn't look out at least 5 years and many of them further. Under the reign of terror inspired by Boesky and his ilk, focus on short term gains took precedence. Have you noticed how many of the companies that abandoned long-range strategies for short term gain have floundered, been sold off, gone bankrupt and in many other ways been severely distressed? It didn't take companies long to realize that unless they were interested in presiding over the death of the company, giving lip service to quarterly dividend checks while looking 5 and 10 years down the road is the only way to survive. And that in a business environment that moves several warp speeds faster than even the 70s and 80s. I still maintain that if there was any credible probability that ESC research would produce viable cures, companies would move it off-shore if necessary to pursue it and escape the moral and legal sanctions in this country, federal funding be damned. Having observed it closely and been an active participant for about half a century, I have infinite faith in the capitalist system. I don't necessarily admire it's morals. So while I may morally oppose ESC research and be willing to close the argument there, the fact that private companies aren't interested convinces me that it appears to be a dry hole.



Frey: No doubt
One more way in which our elected representatives violate the founding document of the country.

Don't look to me to support it.

"When the electorate awakes to the fact that it can vote to itself the largesse of the Treasury, democracy is doomed". Tytler.

Mountain Rose
aka Queen of the Reactionary Righties (go ahead and take it as a compliment)

"If you morally object to eating babies for lunch, then don't do it yourself, but don't infringe on the rights of others to stay alive by eating these nutritious children."

An embryo and a baby are not the same thing, as I addressed before. It's a quality of life issue, Rose. You see your life as equivalent to that of a collection of cells in a little block of ice? So, if we had cryonic technology, would you freeze yourself? You'd live forever, as long as we never thawed you out. Sound good?

If you define humanity by DNA, wouldn't that make it illegal to amputate a limb that had gangrene? I won't go into cutting hair and nails, since those cells are dead already. But a leg or arm has living cells, and we must protect every single one. Maybe if we froze the limb after the operation.

You know more about the Bible than I do (I think), but doesn't it say something about humanity (or the soul) being defined by blood? Embryonic stem cells don't have any.

Mr. Right
"As a matter of fact, we are trying to create human life through IVF. What then gives us the right to decide which one lives and which one dies?"

So, how do you feel about IVF in general? Moral, immoral?

One more, Mr. Right
"the fact that private companies aren't interested convinces me that it appears to be a dry hole."

And the passionate interest of reputable scientists convinces me it is not.

Frey again
I am conflicted about IVF in general but lean toward immoral. We start playing with the notion of becoming God. Why is it so difficult for couples to imagine that if children are not going to happen normally we find another outlet like adoption? Is this push to "have a baby of our very own" in the best interest of the child or in the selfish interest of the parents? Are we so arrogant as to insist that our genes be replicated at any and all costs? For myself, I think I'm the kind of guy that deserves to have about a hundred grandchildren. The fact that I have but one daughter who is uninterested in fulfilling that desire means I have to look elsewhere. And so I "adopt" grandchildren and we play on the farm and I teach them about animals and gardening and help them with their homework and I am very happy, their parents are very happy (especially when it amounts to free babysitting) and the "grandkids" appear to have great time. Does it make a difference to me that these precious kids aren't "flesh of my flesh?" Not in the least. I guess I can't muster the arrogance to assume that my DNA is so superior that it must be reproduced, I just love the DNA that has been. The fact that we can does not make it right.

I am also unimpressed with the passionate scientist argument. Hitler was passionate. Billy Graham is passionate. Passion in and of itself does not make right. I will match their passion for with my passion against. Hopefully, neither of these passions will convince you. Rather, scientific evidence (of which there is none, only hope) and the enlightened self-interest of capitalist markets should.

mr. Right
Good point about "passionate"; bad choice of words on my part. Replace "passionate interest of reputable scientists" with "the opinion of almost all reputable scientists".

And there is scientific evidence:
"Recently, in California, researchers have injected embryonic stem cells into mice as they developed in the womb. Upon maturing, it was found that some of the human ES cells had survived and two months after injection, the researchers found that the human ES cells had undertaken "the characteristics of mouse cells".

Scientists in Australia have grown human prostate tissue in mice through the use of ES cells. The research involved combining human ES cells with mouse prostate cells, and then using a mouse as the host to grow the human prostate. The researchers were able to show the resulting tissue was also functional as a human prostate. This work may enable medical researchers to use a prostate derived in this manner as a model for studying prostate cancer and disease and analysis of future prostate-related drugs."

From Wikipedia.

Hearing about your "grandchildren" makes me wish that I'd someone like you around when I was growing up (Dad worked too hard, Mom was sick). I agree that it is a generous and altruistic thing to do, but I would suggest that selfish motives also play a part. Simply put, you're passing something of yourself on to live after you die, the same motivation that a couple has when they decide to have children. An altruistic act, but you get something out of the deal, too. Even if the kids don't share your DNA, a similar principle applies.

I don't want this to get too long, but check out Richard Dawkins' book, The Selfish Gene, and read the chapter on "memes". Good reading.

Denying what to whom? puh-leez.
Frey writes: Friday, November, 03, 2006 12:41 PM
vineyard1

"So, does she speak for all diabetics? If she doesn't want to use a cure for her moral reasons, that's fine, I respect that. It's her call."

NOWHERE does the author attempt to do anything except speak for herself and state the reasons why her choice is what it is. Did you try to read it, even a little?

This is so typical - Frey, you can't address the facts or this issue, so we get this garbage:

"As for everyone else, well, it should be their call. You don't have the right to deny it to everyone else based on your own narrow values."

Denying life to that tiny human kinda decides for that embryo based on your own narrow value - does it not, Frey? You seem to think you are qualified to decide that human should be given up for your betterment. And for research, not even a single cure yet, research that is, to date, a dead end, when there are real cures for real problems out there. Worded a different way - there are ALREADY CURES, being DELIBERATELY IGNORED, using adult Stem Cells. Now, Frey, read right passed that statement and ignore that it's there.

"By the way, (once again) embryonic stem cells are indeed more effective than adult stem cells, contrary to what was said in the piece."

Name one definitive,(you do know what that means I hope) not theoretical or speculative study, one cure, one piece of evidence ANYWHERE besides "they" say. The only attempts to use ESCells have resulted in tragic distortions, almost monstrous failures. ASCells have actually CURED people (plural). And those cured people have testified before Congress.

Frey, you prove yet again the liberal agenda. Facts are just not necessary in your world to make a decision - you'll think and do as you're told, even when real results are piled a mile high. Results? You just aren't interested in results. The goal is to get the tax payers to pony up the cost of the failed research. If the cloned cells can be used to cure something, we would have to buy those patented cells instead of using our own. The process to use our own stem cells is not so easily patented, and can be improved and changed to avoid the exclusive use of a particular corporate owner.

Duh.

Frey -
Darn - the title block is too short to put "we've got to stop meeting like this" after your name. We really ought to get together for a beer. Although we disagree, you have been nothing but civil.

I'm not really convinced with the two articles. They are still full of the "may" One thing that has been discovered with ESC is that transferring the cells into a patient is even more problematic than transplant surgery in terms of matching. This is one of the reasons that adult stem cells have shown so much more promise than embryonic. A person's own stem cells can be manipulated and put back - no rejection problems. But that still sidesteps, for me anyway, the moral issue.

I freely admit that I am selfish in adopting all of my "grandkids." I loved it when my nieces and nephews were pre-college and all 5 of them would simultaneously descend on the farm for 2 to 3 weeks. I told all my clients that I would be unavailable and had the time of my life. And I know I got at least as much out of it as they did. Several of the local parents have told me how much I have meant to their kids and I get invited to grandparents day at schools and you're darned right there is an ego boost there. A big one. Probably one of the reasons I am so enthusiastic about it is that I had such terrific grandparents even though my Dad was also way too busy for me and my mother was profoundly uninterested in being one. But my point was that I am very content to take what is available and don't feel the need to grown my own. On the whole question of IVF, I would quote the old German chorale tune "Was Gott Tut, Das ist Wohlgetan." Literally, "What God Does, That is Done Well" or more poetically, "Whatever My God Ordains is Right."

It is quite possible, in my opinion, that we may have gone too far in our pursuit of some kinds of knowledge. I ran across a study the other day which I didn't have time to read completely but the gist of it was that babies born via IVF will often have their own fertility problems upon maturity and they are investigating a higher incidence of birth defects amongst the children. Like I say, I have limited knowledge of a preliminary study so I'd not hang my hat on it but at the same time, as a livestock breeder, I'm not at all surprised if this is indeed true. Like the old margarine ad "It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature." And I think that is what we do. And I think we do so at our peril, long term. I'm no Luddite but I think there are areas where we probably shouldn't go. I love space exploration and I'd even go up if I had the money but I'm not sure that messing with human biology is either morally or physically a good way to go.

It's bitter cold here today and I've taken refuge in the office too long. I have chickens to milk and cows to pluck or something. But it has been a pleasure arguing with you and if anyone else has read our exchange, HI and hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

Reputable researcher/doctor
My cousin is a research doctor living and working in Missouri. His field of study is not stem cells, but it does interact. He's friends with several stem cell researchers. He says that the embryonic stem cell research (ESCR) community is starting to get nervous about losing private funding because they haven't produced any promising results despite early predictions of wonderful potential. Private funders are willing to wait a long time for results to pan out, but they want to see some intermediate results or they start looking at the bottom line. Adult stem cell research (ASCR) has limitations, but it has produced results and continues to produce results and shows many reasons to expect the results to keep coming.

Now, the question is -- why should government fund a non-starter? This is not an orphan drug that has shown itself worthwhile but can't get funding. This is a research that has substantial funding and still doesn't seem to be able to produce a positive result. It's sort of like buying a horse. Do you plunk your money down for the living one or the dead one? Grandpa the horse wrangler would have put his money on the living one. In this debate, that's adult stem cell research. The government should not be wasting our money on that which is rapidly proving to be a non-starter.

Potential means nothing unless results back it up! The potential for ESCR is rapidly becoming a cruel joke. Making it legal will not make it a viable science. Only results will do that.

RE: Frey
"Actually, the transporter device from Star Trek is scientifically impossible, at least the way they portray it (darned laws of physics!)."

Ya might want to try to take a physics class before saying something like that.

"Embryonic stem cell research is not some pie-in-the-sky fantasy, it's the real thing. Ask any reputable biologist or doctor."

Then why is it that there has never once been a single successful test? Only theoretical wishful thinking.

"Besides, couldn't you use the same argument for any new break-through? The airplane, the steam engine, gene therapy, penicillin, all of those were unproven in the beginning. By your logic, we shouldn't have bothered."

Actually, I didn't say anthing like that. Each of those examples were developed with private money -- at least until they'd been proven. ESCs are FAR from proven.

"Saying that ASC research is better that ESC research because it has produced cures is like pitting me against Florence Griffith Joyner (rest in peace) in the 200 yard dash, giving me a 180 yard head start, and then saying I'm the better runner because I came in first."

Again, I repeat: ASC research is more worthy of funding with tax payer dollars because we KNOW there is some benefit. ESCs have no known benefit to society today, outside of keeping the lab rat population in control, an no amount of spinning can deny that simple fact.

"If the lottery had the same odds as ESC research, I'd be playing every day, and would be a very rich man very quickly."

So where are all those wonderful cures? Hell, can you point to a SINGLE lab rat that either didn't reject the stem cells, or died because of tumors? Like I said, you have wishful thinking and NOTHING more. NOTHING.

RE: aurorawatcher
That was probably the best explanation of why ESCs aren't worthy of federal funding ever written. Kudos.

Frey said:
"As for everyone else, well, it should be their call. You don't have the right to deny it to everyone else based on your own narrow values."

You are correct, as far is it goes. Since an embryo is (erroneously) not legally classified as human life, I cannot legally prevent you from killing an embryo to save your own sorry a_ss. HOWEVER, I very much have the right to forbid you from using MY tax dollars to fund research into "medicine" that, regardless of whether effective, is morally reprehensible to me. THAT is what this debate is about, Frey. It's not (yet) about whether stem cell research in general should be banned, or even about whether embryonic stem cell research should be banned. No one is trying (yet) to ban ESC research. They are merely trying to ban the appropriation of tax dollars, some of which are confiscated from people who are opposed to ESC research, to fund this research.

Whether you are for or against ESC research (and you are obviuosly for it); Whether there is any real hope for ESC research to produce cures (and there isn't); Surely you have to concede that people who are morally opposed to ESC research should not be FORCED to foot the bill for it! That would be like asking animal rights activists to support, through their tax dollars, research that involves vivisection of animals. Or asking pro-life taxpayers to pay for research into new and more effective ways to destroy human life.

On another note, you asked how could ESC research be evil and IVF producedures (which result in the destruction of MOST embryos) is OK. My answer is that BOTH are evil. To me (and to anyone with enough logic to figure it out), whether you call it a zygote, and embryo, or a fetus, it is alive from the moment of conception. I feel sorry for couples who cannot have children in the normal manner, but I do not condone the use of any procedure to get around this difficulty that involves creating multiple embryos, some of which will end up being destroyed. Now, because of the current laws, I cannot force my views on this issue on others, and I can do nothing to stop people from going to fertility clinics and creating life that they know will be destroyed. However, I fully expect to hold the right to determine whether MY tax dollars shall be used to FUND anything that destroys human life, by my definition of it. I can't stop ESC research from taking place, but I'll be damned if I pay for it.

Regards,
Trevor


Trevor
Fair enough. I should have thought of that. I wonder if we can institute a conscientious objector program for tax-payers? You won't have to pay for embryonic stem cell research, and I won't have to pay for the domestic surveillance program.

vineyard1
With all due respect,

Duh right back at you.

Did you even read my posts?

Mr. Right
Thanks for your views. I look forward to seeing you again in this site. Take care.

If you're ever in Puerto Rico, let me know.

aurorawatcher writes:
Now, the question is -- why should government fund a non-starter?

An investment counselor who is a member of our church and believes bio-tech is good investment for the future says those corporations (most heading to California for the tax dollars) that have invested large sums, very large, in ESCR, won't be getting a commercial return on the research investment. As soon as a specific research project officially stops in a publicly traded company, the accountants have to post the numbers. Eventually the numbers have to be reported to Wall Street. The results could be pretty ugly. An infusion of tax dollars, accounted for creatively over several years, prevents a stock value drop for the corporation. That's how it was explained to me. Large investors in bio-tech ESCR and CEO's are behind the big push for legislation, not the science community or universities.

Beam me up! Or not.
beowulfe,

""Actually, the transporter device from Star Trek is scientifically impossible, at least the way they portray it (darned laws of physics!)."

Ya might want to try to take a physics class before saying something like that."

I have taken three physics classes (undergrad), where I learned about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It basically says that you can't know the position and at the same time, the direction of a particle, with 100% accuracy. There's always going to be some measure of error, which make reliable transport impossible. In Star Trek, they have Heisenberg compensators, but even the most fanatical Trekker could not tell you how they work. I'm with Barclay. Shuttlecraft all the way!

As for the rest of your post, well, just look back over my previous posts. All my responses are there.

predictable (sigh)
Frey writes: Friday, November, 03, 2006 5:52 PM
vineyard1
With all due respect,

Duh right back at you.

Did you even read my posts?

Your response is kinda predictable doncha think?

Yes, and I responded to your remarks. If you scroll up a little bit, you'll see them, generally addressed a sentence at a time. And the definitive study I asked you for? Just one set of positive results? Those mice infused with human DNA had an elevated tumor development rate and died of various abnormalities, by the way. Hardly a success. And hardly a cure for an ailment. What is your point there?

What of the people who have been cured with ASCells? You have not provided a concrete reason why monies for ESCR should be diverted from research that is curing people to research that has failed to show any results other than the truly tragic. I'd like to know why you think this would be a good thing to do.

Please stop using the word respect, as in how much respect you have for others. If you did, it would show in the posts you make, like Mr. Right. He speaks to the issues and the facts. I think you protest too much. Your arguments become personal to avoid an issue or are too incomplete to convince someone of your viewpoint.

Divert money from ASCR to ESCR? On what grounds, exactly? Good business? Scientific track record? They stopped trying to build that airplane that used the bouncing umbrella thing for lift. It didn't work either.

Vineyard1
Posted by me, at 1:29, in response to Beowulfe:

"By proven science, I assume you mean adult stem cell research. That won't happen. ASC research shows a good amount of promise, too. No one is going to abandon it."

That's what I meant when I said "Have you read my posts?" If you had, you would know that I never said we should take money away from ASC research. I said that ESC research had more potential, because embryonic stem cells can turn into any tissue. Pot calling the kettle black, anyone?

You wrote:
"there are ALREADY CURES, being DELIBERATELY IGNORED, using adult Stem Cells"

I never claimed any different, except for the fact they're being deliberately ignored. Deliberately ignored by whom? Who is in this massive conspiracy?

As for respect, to you, I actually said "With all due respect" Interpret that however you wish.

Mr. Right & Mountain Rose
I should like to meet and know you. Both of you seem to have your heads on straight. As for Frey, he seems to be a product of the left, liberal, godless humanity that has been spreading it's evil demagoguery (using popular prejudices and false claims) since the 60's "revolution", and is obviously part and parcel with the ACLU, who all claim that our God is fiction....and place no value on any form of life except their own.

Although city raised, I've been a farmer since 1953 (grain, dairy, beef). I've had my arm up into more than one cow (women's arms are smaller than men's arms) to help straighten out and deliver a calf into the world. The absolute delight of saving a life, of helping to bring one into the world, is exhilarating. The loss of even one calf has brought tears. How much more value we must place on the life of a child.

Should Amendment #2 pass in Missouri, the researchers will be able to fertilize an egg - and this is then a child - and then to manipulate and destroy it at will. I'm sorry, but this goes beyond the pale!

Unlike Mr. Right, I have many grandchildren and have delighted in teaching them the proper way to bottle feed a calf, to watch for signs of illness in a calf by watching the eyes, the ears, the fecal process. I have also in the past bred registered American Eskimo Dogs (NOT a puppy mill) and have seen the wonder in childrens' eyes as they watch the birth process, seeing new life. This teaches a new generation the value of life, the joy of God's gift. Mr. Right is so generous to share his joy in life, in farming, with another generation.

As for Frey, there cannot be much joy in his life, except the turmoil he perpetrates.

I shall keep this sight in hopes of hearing from you.


futile attempt
Frey writes: Friday, November, 03, 2006 8:46 PM

" . . .I never said we should take money away from ASC research. I said that ESC research had more potential, because embryonic stem cells can turn into any tissue. Pot calling the kettle black, anyone?

Spoken like a true individual/group/company/country on the dole with the idea the US has unlimited money. Money is finite, Frey. People who have jobs, bills and pay taxes understand this. If tax dollars are provided for ESCR, less will go to ASCR.
Oh, and your metaphor doesn't fit, Frey. You might think about leaving them off.

"I never claimed any different, except for the fact they're being deliberately ignored. Deliberately ignored by whom? Who is in this massive conspiracy?"

It isn't a conspiracy, Frey, it's ignorance. like the funding issue. You are the one ignoring the results, right here, in this forum. Where are the pieces of information I've asked you for twice now? You don't even address them, you're back to personal attack and poorly used idioms. You need the attention?

The issue of stem cell research is very important to those of us who have family members it would benefit. ESCR holds no promise for my daughter. ASCR does, and has provided cures for people with her specific problem. We want that cure for her, and so many others like her, too.

You seem to be one of those people who live in a theoretical world with no consequences and no regard for real results and solutions to real problems. Nothing real effects you. You play rhetorical games and spout off on theories when there is real need to real people. And you blow results off, ignore it and spout more canned responses and misdirection.

"As for respect, to you, I actually said "With all due respect" Interpret that however you wish."

Historically, that phrase, too, has a different implication and meaning than the way you use it here. No interpretation needed Frey. It's the same amount of respect and regard you have for the tiniest defenseless human embryo and for the people who need the cures already documented using ASCR that you work so hard to avoid addressing. The "respect" you claim is artificial. If you have to point it out to the reader, it ain't there. If it were real, it would be evident. Kinda like the benefits of ESCR.

Vineyard1
Are ESCR and ASCR the only two projects the government is putting money into? Wow, so I guess the whole Iraq war is being funded by private donations. And highway maintenance. And the salaries of all the federal employees. And all that congressional pork. That's an amazing revelation, Vinyard. You should alert the media.

To repeat, I never said that ASCR was an unproductive line of research or unworthy of funding. No one else is saying it either.

I guess it will seem like a cop-out that I haven't provided you with that info, but you and I both know that it's not going to make a difference. No matter what I come up with, you'll find something wrong with it, so I'm not going to bother. Sorry.

This is obviously an emotional issue for you. My best hopes for your daughter's continued health.

Ozarkgrma
Thanks for your kind words. If God is the vengeful, homosexual-hating, anti-science right winger that many on this site appear to think he is, I'm going to need all the kind words I can get.

"As for Frey, there cannot be much joy in his life, except the turmoil he perpetrates."

I'll admit it's fun to shake things up a little, just as Mountain Rose finds it fun to bait the Lefties. In case you were wondering, here are some of the joys in my life:
My wife
My family (mainly my dad)
Our friends
Writing short stories
Books
Investing in the market
Science
Being well-informed
Biking, swimming
Cooking
Movies

A very fulfilled life, in my opinion, and all without a hint of the Church. Go figure.

This is probably my last post, so I wanted to thank everyone (even those who don't like me very much right now). I'm not convinced by anyone's arguments, but the exchange has been very illuminating. See you all around.

Help?
Frey writes: Saturday, November, 04, 2006 1:31 PM
"Are ESCR and ASCR the only two projects the government is putting money into? Wow, so I guess the whole Iraq war is being funded by private donations. And highway maintenance. And the salaries of all the federal employees. And all that congressional pork. That's an amazing revelation, Vinyard. You should alert the media."

Can someone explain this one to me? Have to admit to being really confused here. What does this have to do with the current discussion and where on earth did anyone on this forum imply any of it? I could use some help from anyone.

"To repeat, I never said that ASCR was an unproductive line of research or unworthy of funding. No one else is saying it either."

Once more. Try to listen. The TAX money is not never-ending or bottomless. There will only be so much of it. Money that might go to ESCR to kill little humans and do research that, so far, results in grotesque defects in already suffering older humans, will be tax money that WON'T be available to promote Adult Stem Cell research in areas having, so far, real results. As was stated earlier, TAX MONEY should NOT FUND EMBRYONIC stem cell research. If you want it funded, get out your check book. Don't force us to pay for it when it is abhorrent to us.

"I guess it will seem like a cop-out that I haven't provided you with that info, but you and I both know that it's not going to make a difference. No matter what I come up with, you'll find something wrong with it, so I'm not going to bother. Sorry."

I was looking forward to something promising from the scientific community.

"This is obviously an emotional issue for you. My best hopes for your daughter's continued health."

Emotional? That won't work, Frey. Does it matter to us? Of course it matters, very very much. We are always grateful for genuine concern for our oldest daughter's health. Thank you.

Ozarakgrma
Thanks so much for your kind words.

I've had my arm up my share of cows - and horses and sheep - so I know of what you speak. I think that farming is something that makes one a true believer in God. I've seen countless animals born and every time it is a miracle that this slimey mass shakes its head and sits up. I had to pull a foal this spring that was hip-locked and I worked so hard that my arms were cramping unbearably and I was worried that I'd break the poor foal's legs and then all of a sudden she popped out and landed right in my lap and while I'm concerned that the stress may have done her in she sits up - on my lap and with her hind legs still in the mare - and takes a mouthful of straw. A blessing that I personally don't believe "just happens." I've also lost my share and you are right - there is always the heartache that comes with the loss. If we feel that much for a "dumb animal" how much more precious are our children.

We also have a few sheep. As you probably know, sheep are dumb. They are almost too dumb to live. When I read reports about what scientists and doctors are doing with cloning and with IVF and all the other manipulations I think about my sheep. Sheep were one of the first animals to be domesticated. After thousands of years of man's best efforts we have produced an animal that can't live on it's own, is born with a tail that must be removed for hygenic reasons, requires an annual haircut that is taumatic for both the sheep and the shepherd and is so dumb that if it gets its head stuck in a page wire fence, it can't figure out to go backwards, you have to walk in front of it and scare it back. What gives us the notion that we are clever enough to start fooling with human life?

I'd bet your grandkids love you to no end and cherish the time they get to spend with you.

Gotta go do the chores. Need to be done early tonight because it's symphony night and I'm taking one of the "grandkids."

Thanks again for your gracious thoughts. May God bless you.

Limbaugh
Rush Limbaugh by waving his arms around chaotically in the air was not only ridiculing Michael J. Fox but making fun of all people who have neurological disorders and cannot control their body movements. This was not courageous but crassly insensitive to the numerous unfortunate people who are afflicted with these horrible diseases.

vineyard1
You're welcome.

One more to Vinyard1
"Emotional? That won't work, Frey"

What won't work? What was I trying to do? I was simply stating a fact.
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