Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Thursday, June 07, 2007
Fred Thompson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Sentencing of Scooter Libby
by Fred Thompson
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
What would you rather watch?

The sentencing of Scooter Libby was the last in a series of acts that has resulted in a shocking injustice – one created by and enabled by federal officials. As I’ve been saying for many months, this is a “he said-she said” case about political infighting that would have never been brought in any other prosecutor’s office in America.

The CIA started the ball rolling by sending the Democratic partisan husband of one of its employees to Niger on a sensitive mission. Knowing an opportunity when he saw one, he returned and blasted the Bush Administration (the fact that he blatantly falsified a few important things along the way is another story). It should not have been a shock to CIA officials when people then asked, “Who is this guy and why was he sent to Niger?” The only mystery in Washington is why the CIA employee-wife’s name, Valerie Plame, took as long as it did to leak.

Nevertheless, the CIA demanded that the Department of Justice investigate the leak of her name (not surprisingly, the fact that the CIA was making such a request was leaked). This put pressure on the DOJ. The DOJ, in turn, promptly caved to the media and Congressional pressure to appoint a Special Counsel to investigate the Plame leak. However, there were two glaring problems for anyone with a sense of justice, or who may have gone to law school for one semester.

The Justice Department and the new Special Counsel knew that: 1.) The leaking of Valerie Plame’s name did not constitute a crime because she was not a “covered person” under the relative criminal statue and, 2.) They already knew the name of the leaker: State Department official Richard Armitage.

Yet small matters such as these do not matter much to Justice Department officials trying to cover their own fanny, or to a newly minted Special Prosecutor with a reputation to make and members of the media to satisfy.

Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald proceeded to make public statements and employ tactics that would have brought condemnation in any other setting. He moved heaven and earth for a year and a half in order to come up with some sort of “process” crime against a high-level Administration official -- so that he could try them in one of the most anti-Bush Administration places in America, Washington DC.

The best he could come up with was a man who was not well known to the public, but who was basically working two full-time jobs after 9/11 -- trying to prevent such a thing from happening again. The White House physician says that, “Mr. Libby worked himself to exhaustion day after day reviewing national intelligence estimates.” Of course, he had to make time for hours of testimony before Fitzgerald’s grand jury and Fitzgerald found inconsistencies. At trial, practically every government witness not only was inconsistent with other government witnesses, but was inconsistent with regard to their own prior testimony.

During his closing arguments, Fitzgerald did what has caused many a prosecutor to get a mistrial: He asked the jury to consider “facts” that had not been placed into evidence or proven in any way. It was so egregious it was even too much for the judge, who admonished him.

Mr. Libby was convicted of perjury and false statements. For sentencing, the federal probation office filed a statement that the applicable federal guidelines called for a sentence of from 15 to 21 months. He also identified several grounds for what is known in the law as a “downward departure” from that range. In this case, Mr. Libby had led an exemplary life, and had sacrificed in order to serve his country and will presumably lose his law license. In other words, under the law, the judge would have had ample reason for giving Mr. Libby less than 15 months, including probation.

Fitzgerald, seeing this probation report and reverting to form as someone without professional judgment or scruples when it comes to landing his prey, weighed in. Throughout the trial, Fitzgerald insisted that Valerie Plame’s status was irrelevant and that the defense could not use her status in any way. But now that it came time for sentencing, Fitzgerald insisted that her status be considered, and that Mr. Libby be treated as if he’d violated the law he’d never even been charged with.

Proving once again that Fitzgerald can get away with practically anything in Washington, the judge apparently accepted Fitzgerald’s argument, contrary to all notions of basic fairness. The judge rejected his own probation office’s recommendation, not only doubling the 15-month minimum to 30 months, but also fining Mr. Libby $250,000 and giving him 400 hours of public service. Apparently, the judge is going to make Mr. Libby start serving his sentence in the near future, before he can get his appeal heard.

Unfortunately, this is an example of what Washington is all about these days. All too often the intersection of politics, law and the media results in a lack of responsibility by practitioners in all three areas. Having all this crashing down on the head of one man and his family, in a time when national security leaks are published regularly on the front pages of the newspapers without consequence, will justifiably add to the cynicism and outrage on the part of all observers.

For the preamble to our Constitution, our founders stated explicitly the purposes for our Constitution. Listed even before providing for domestic tranquility or for the common defense was the establishment of justice. Official behavior, with regard to matters like the Scooter Libby case, are not what our framers had in mind. Now this excessive sentence, given by the Federal District Judge is just another in a long line of reasons why Mr. Libby should be pardoned.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

Fred Thompson has been a lawyer, actor and United States Senator. He writes exclusive analysis and commentary for Townhall Magazine.

Be the first to read Fred Thompson’s column.
Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.
Sign up today

Hey Fred,
I guess you only believe in "law and order" in the make-believe world of television.


Love ya Fred
But I can't get behind pardoning Libby until agents Ramos and Complean are walking free and back with their families.

I agree with Dangerous Dave
Those border agents should be pardoned as well. Scooter should not even be convicted. What we need is a special prosecutor to investigate this entire circus trial from the prosecutor to the judge. How can you sentence anyone who has obviously not commited ANY crime?

Fred I only have one question, when you get our nomination (you have my vote), who will you select as a running mate? Please go with Newt or Mitt as either would be a great addition to help serve our Republic.

Don't forget the border agents
You gotta love a would-be politician/Presidential candidate who's not afraid to tell it like it is. It's going to be refreshing to see Fred debate other Republicans and especially the Dems when the time comes. I'm looking forward to his straight-forward honesty going up against the politican rehtoric/spin of the other candidates.

I'm not sure what's going on with Bush, but he's lost the entire country including conservatives not to mention his backbone. Why would he not pardon the border agents and Scooter Libby? Their all victims of political persecution and his numbers and Presidency can't sink any lower. I would expect that kind of justice by Chavez's government, but not ours. Clinton pardoned a variety of bad criminals when he left office and we didn't hear a peep about that.

Fred, I can't wait to see you in action.

Scooter's sentence
This is yet another indication of Bush's spectacular bungling of everything in his warped attempts to be "fair" to the Democrats.

Sensationalism
More and more today, we see the press teaming with the government to sensationalize events and feed the machine - the machine that tells us that without the Federal government, we would be hopelessly lost. It's the Lawyer Nation.

Commute if not Pardon
I know Governors can do it, Mikey Dukakas and Willie Horton come to mind, and if Bush wants to let the appeals process run, he can still keep Libby and Ramos and Complean out of jail.

Simply commute all sentences pending exhaustion of appeals. Not unlike Gerald Ford's pardon of Nixon, it would be possible for Bush to issue a blanket commutation of "all jail time imposed to be served while an appeal is pending."

And as to the border guards, if Paris Hilton can get out of jail early for "medical reasons", being assaulted is a very good "medical reason" for them to get out early too. I know Hilton had state, not federal, charges but the media spin could be the same.

And if Congress thinks that ANYONE is EVER going to not plead the fifth after this, well....

By the way
In case someone associated with Mr. Thompson is reading these comments, is it not worth noting that Congress is considering adding twenty to fifty million new Americans at a time when California is asking the residents of LA not to take baths?

Let's give all these people the rights of American citizens as climate and energy catastrophes begin to besiege this nation.

There is only one real reason that business is supporting Amnesty:

It isn't because they think it is fair to these laborers.

It isn't the low wages either, they can retain these workers with a simple guest worker program.

The only reason is to get the families of these people up to America and keep them from sending all that spending cash back to Mexico. Fifty million new consumers - following a quarter when Wall Street tells us the profits of American corporations was flat.


I don't understand the liberal mind . .
There is no shame and no justice when it comes to liberals. They only know winning more power at all costs. But what sickens me even more is the craven inaction of the Republicans. Republicans have become a gutless, odius, loathesome lot.

The Bush Administration has presented its neck to the Democrats on numerous occasions and the liberals have not yet failed to give it a whack. It is apparent that the Republicans are too stupid to learn or too cowardly to face the fact that the Democrats declared political war a long time ago and they are taking no prisoners.


Another Bush Rollover
No matter what you think about Slick Willie, Clinton would never have allowed the press to slap him around over an issue like this. He would have come out fighting. There would have been blood on the floor. Bush allowed the press to have free rein, never making any cogent replies to their accusations about this non-issue. Chris Matthews and others made their living speculating that Plame was going to bring down the entire administration. Bush is not a fighter. He turns the other butt-cheek and gets his spanking. The people elected him to represent them, to fight for them. By not sticking up for himself or his people, like Libby, he just showed us one more time how utterly worthless he really is. My disdain for Bush is limitless.

Pardon for Libby?
Pardon for Libby would send the wrong message

Do you think that a pardon for Libby “would send a message that it’s OK to attempt to thwart the criminal justice system if you’re an important player in Washington”?

USATODAY-Ex-White House aide’s lies violated the law, impeded federal inquiry.

A federal jury had barely finished pronouncing former vice presidential aide Lewis “Scooter” Libby guilty of perjury and obstruction of justice in March when Republican loyalists began calling for President Bush to pardon him.

Now, with Libby’s stiff sentence this week, the chorus is singing again. In Tuesday night’s GOP presidential debate, Sen. Sam Brownback and Rep. Tom Tancredo endorsed a pardon for Libby; several other candidates said they’d consider it. The Wall Street Journal, National Review, Weekly Standard and other conservative voices joined the clamor.

….Pardoning Libby would send a message that it’s OK to attempt to thwart the criminal justice system if you’re an important player in Washington. Washington already sends enough messages of that sort…..

READ MORE
http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/pardon-for-libby-would-send-the-wrong-message

Black Dog
I'm sick and tired of the disingenuous rantings of the Left regarding the Clinton impeachment. Here's where Clinton and Libby differ:

1. Clinton did, in fact, commit the crime of perjury. He wasn't on trial for "lying about sex" - he was on trial for perjury.

2. Clinton did, in fact, conspire to obstruct justice by coercing, or attempting to coerce, the testimony of witnesses and by having, or attempting to have, pertinent evidence disappear or otherwise become unavailable to investigators.

Scooter Libby a) did NOT leak the name of Valerie Plame, but even if he did, b) the leaking of Valerie Plame's name was NOT a crime. There should have been no criminal prosecution or even an investigation over anything regarding this matter.

I actually put this in the same category of the conviction of Martha Stuart. Prosecutors tried to convict her of a charge of securities fraud but, since they had insufficient evidence to even bring charges, they convicted her of lying about something she was never charged with.

This is what should concern EVERYONE - if a prosecutor wants to convict somebody of a crime, but there is no crime or evidence, the fact that a person can be convicted of something related to that which is not a crime, we should all fear for our own freedom.

Black Dog and Dogjudge Nailed It
Republican complaints about this trial and whatever sentence is involved are absolutely ludicrous. If they had A) Integrity or B) Shame, they would just shut up and realize that teh Clinton impeachment gives Democrats 100% cover for anything they want to do to Republicans. I personally do not feel there have been nearly enough investigations, indictments and trials of Republicans.

Not a crime?
From CNN on 2/11/04.

"If there's a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is," Bush told reporters at an impromptu news conference during a fund-raising stop in Chicago, Illinois. "If the person has violated law, that person will be taken care of.

"I welcome the investigation. I am absolutely confident the Justice Department will do a good job.

"I want to know the truth," the president continued. "Leaks of classified information are bad things,"

Note he doesn't say leak of a covert agent, he says leaks of classified information.

Further into the article.

"If she were only an analyst, not an operative, we would not have filed a crimes report" with the Justice Department, a senior intelligence official said."

NOW, will you folks please get off the podium that Plame wss not an operative for the CIA?

ex-infantry
I know I'm not going to change your mind, but would you indulge me for a couple of seconds?

Okay, Armitage admits that he leaked Plame. If you will go back and look, Novak said early on that he got his information from TWO senior White House sources. Not one, TWO.

So when Fitzgerald comes across Armitage, his job isn't over with, is it?

Libby CHOOSES to go down the road of not giving forthright information. He's a lawyer, he should know what he's doing. He then is given the opportunity to confer with his lawyer. He STILL chooses to not be forthcoming.

This isn't he said she said as is being made out. Fitzgerald is trying to find out where Libby got his information from, and Libby refuses to cooperate.

Do you understand that?

Everything about Plame, Wilson, etc. is immaterial at that point. Fitzgerald is trying to find out who the SECOND person, named by Novak is, and Libby keeps him from being able to do that.

THAT'S OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!!

Not by some poor fool who doesn't know the law. The guy's a lawyer!

Repubs the Party of Law & Order?
Isnt if always the Republicans declaring they are "tough on crime" and all about "law and order"?

Pardoning Libby would be pure hypocrisy on their parts and make a mockery of the criminal justice system.

Dogjudge - Consistency
dogjudge writes: Thursday, June, 07, 2007 11:58 AM
Comments
*** "Funny how Mr. Thompson's views have changed so dramatically.

I wonder what caused the revelation?" ***

Hi Dogjudge,

Is it necessarily the case that consistency in all future verdicts of allegations of lying under oath be based on your position on Clinton's lying?

Not hypocrisy
When you see the statements of the judge and the prosecutor which imply Libby was guilty of the crime of leaking Plame's identity, it is perfectly reasonable for people to question the actions of the prosecutor and the severity of the sentence from the judge.

Must one who is for "law and order" necessarily side with the court's verdict and sentencing in absolutely every case even if you believe that the trial and/or sentencing was unfair? Must we take the position that there are _never_ travesties of justice?

May we not question the correctness of the verdict of not guilty for O.J.?

Law and Order Argument
If conservatives are for "law and order", are liberals not for "law and order"? Are liberals the only people allowed to question verdicts?

The "Law and Order" argument is disingenuous. Give it up.


WE WILL SEE
I love how everyone has an opinion about if Libby
new anything or just didnt remember. I will wait and see how the justice department handles the
Jefferson(THE FRIG $90,000) CASE. Then we will be able to get to the other DEMS like D FEINSTEIN
who ever since this war began has been oputspoken of HALLIBURTON and she was getting her husband BILLION DOLLAR military contracts for the WAR IN IRAQ. What a double standard huh. I like how the DEMS always think that the REPS are always the corrupt ones. Look in the MIRROR.

This country is headed into oblivion
The media, leftist whiners, and self-important politicians/pundits are destroying this country. A case such as this proves it. NOBODY can make a case for sending Libby to jail for 30 months and fining him 250K. For what did he receive this sentence? A faulty memory? Valerie Plame is nothing but a low level admin hack for the CIA. These people are dime a dozen throughout government service today and have no more influence on anything important than I do. All it is is naked political back-stabbing - nothing more. Sandy Berger gets a slap on the wrist for stealing/destroying archive documents and Libby goes to jail - what a bunch of B.S. Anybody that supports this sentence is a MORON.
This country is starting to suck again only this time there won't be any redemption.

The Real Criminal
Regardless of how you feel about Libby, the concern here should be rogue prosecutors. Fitzgerald knew early on in this case that no crime had been committed. Why then did he feel the need to waste millions of taxpayer dollars investigating a non-crime. Like the Duke Lacrosse prosecutor, they either have an adgenda or are making a name for themselves at our expense. I submit it is they who are the real criminals for abusing their office and violating the public trust!!

wjriii
Consistency - Things change. No doubt about that.

That being said. Look at Mr. Thompson's remarks a little closer.

He minimizes the original issue, Monica Lewinsky. "For those who emphasize the private nature of his original misconduct, I would ask if he should be protected because he obstructed justice for such a low purpose?"

That being said, he still goes on to justify going after Clinton.

Then look at how he minimizes the charges of a crime by the CIA! "pressured", "Plame not covered", "knew the name of the leaker", I'm sorry but all of this is BS.

I'm sorry, but at the time all of this got started, from the President on down, NO ONE, let me repeat that for you, NO ONE, took the position that Plame was NOT a covert agent. If you look at my earlier post, the CIA specifically made the differentiation when all of this started.

So let me understand your position.

Clinton's problem started with something that wasn't against the law, but the end consequences of him being found guilty are acceptable because of his perjury.

Libby's original involvement was started because it was thought that a law concerning the security of the United States was broken, but now that the end result goes against your views, it's all wrong because of . . .

Is that what you're trying to say?

apoplectic
"no crime was committed".

That sir is an out and out LIE.

The President thought a crime was committed. The CIA thought there was a crime committed. The Department of Justice thought there was a crime committed.

It's too bad you weren't on Libby's defense team. Obviously you know more than they do.

You want to tell me when the defense team raised the issue that a crime wasn't committed?

Fire Fitzgerald
Fitzgerald should be fired immediately and removed forthwith from his current office as US Attorney in Chicago. Whenever a prosecutor engages in the kind of behavior that Thompson accurately describes as to Fitzgerald, that prosecutor should be fired for cause.

Fred's got stones, Bush not so much...
Boosh- What a spineless loser!

Jim Robinson
Very Good Post!

BTW are you the same Jim Robinson from FREE REPUBLIC? If so I do read and like your site!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/browse


Also it would be great to have you on my radio show!

http://controlcongress.com/control-congress-radio



Phil Byler
Ah, our resident Harvard lawyer steps in.

Gee, I see to remember that there have been cases of prosecutorial misconduct that have arisen over the last few years.

I'll hold my breath until someone from the right proceeds with that idiotic idea. You want to try impeaching the judge too? You know the one that the President must feel was biased and incompetent. You know the one that the President JUST appointed to the FISA court because the President felt he was so incompetent.

Hey, that would be a great plank for Mr. Thompson to run on. Impeach Walton - Prosecute Fitzgerald.

Is Fred Thompson Conservative

by Eric Langborgh

Yesterday I wrote how, measured by who is backing him, likely candidate Fred Thompson may prove to be a Bush clone if elected president. An article at CNSnews.com today (“Fred Thompson Could Face Fire From the Right”) suggests that, given Thompson’s legislative history, this concern may be warranted, at least on some issues.

Since I am more of an actions than a words guy when it comes to judging candidates, and since I believe that some of the “conservative” critiques mentioned are not so much conservative as they are partisan gripes, I think much of the CNSnews.com article should be ignored, at least in terms of the negatives. But here are some real concerns conservatives should have about Fred Thompson, as listed in the article:

Illegal Immigration: “[I]n the Senate, Thompson voted in 1998 for a bill that established a temporary farm worker program, similar to the guest worker program supported by Bush.”

Economic interventionism: “In the Senate, Thompson joined some moderate Republicans in voting to raise the minimum wage in 1996, …”

Intrusive Government: “…in voting for a “patient’s bill of rights” in 2001 to mandate better coverage by health-care plans…”

Censored Political Speech: “and in supporting the 2001 Bipartisan Campaign Finance Reform Act (McCain -Feingold).”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/is-fred-thompson-the-conservative-hope

The lying is usually what gets one ...
... but considering that the "outing" of Mrs. Plame was NOT even a crime to begin with, the judge here should have been more lenient in his sentencing of "Scooter" Libby. Maybe, like the Senator said, it's time for President Bush to correct any injustice(s) that might have been done here.

http://osi-speaks.blogspot.com/2007/06/fred-thompson-uges-pardon-for-scooter.html#links

dogjudge
A crime had been committed then? Really? Then who is on trial for that supposed crime? Armitage admitted to outing Plame. Why was he not prosecuted if that was a crime?

dogjudge also
As to the defense team, they did file motions seeking the documentation that Fitzgerald had proving he already knew who was responsible for the leak. That motion was denied.

apoplectic
As I said before.

"From CNN on 2/11/04.

"If there's a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is," Bush told reporters at an impromptu news conference during a fund-raising stop in Chicago, Illinois. "If the person has violated law, that person will be taken care of.

"I welcome the investigation. I am absolutely confident the Justice Department will do a good job.

"I want to know the truth," the president continued. "Leaks of classified information are bad things,"

Note he doesn't say leak of a covert agent, he says leaks of classified information.

Further into the article.

"If she were only an analyst, not an operative, we would not have filed a crimes report" with the Justice Department, a senior intelligence official said."

NOW, will you folks please get off the podium that Plame was not an operative for the CIA?"

So on 2/11/04, the President, the CIA and the Department of Justice ALL thought that a crime was committed.

What part of that don't you understand?

apoplectic
Note again.

Novak said there were TWO sources for his leak. NOT ONE. Two.

You do understand the difference between one and two, right?

Even if Armitage did leak Plame's name, there was still at least one additional person who was involved. The case goes on!

More to the point.

So why are motions denied?

Maclemore
thats a new one.

Does this kind of stuff come from think tanks? or is sort of random.

Libby Asks for Paris Hilton Treatment
Do you suppose that the next talking point for the right is going to be, "Well since Paris only had to serve 5 days of her sentence, we feel that Scooter should only serve a couple of weeks."?

dogjudge
I never said that initially Fitzgerald knew a crime had not been committed. I said he learned early on in the investigation that no crime had been committed but continued investigating anyway wasting our taxpayer dollars. The FACT that he didn't prosecute ANYONE for the initial crime should give you a hint!!

apoplectic
No sir, you keep saying that there was NO crime committed.

As I said originally. That is a lie.

The fact that no one was prosecuted for the original crime doesn't mean anything.

By your logic, no one could be charged with attempted murder because no one was actually murdered.

Have you ever heard of aiding and abetting? The person involved doesn't commit the actual crime. It doesn't mean that they're not going to go to jail.

Finally, Libby's crimes have been perjury and obstruction of justice. He was never charged with leaking. You folks apparently don't like that, but you don't get to pick and choose which laws you want enforced and which ones you don't want enforced.

If Libby goes free on this, the law should be changed so that it applies to everyone else who decides to perjure themselves and obstruct justice.


Robert
This is what you are saying "It is ok to lie to a federal grand jury under certian circumstances"....


Never said that. I'm saying that it was not worth spending millions of dollars. By your logic Clinton should have been tried and convicted upon leaving office.

Gross Injustice Towards Libby
Even if there was a crime committed, it was not the one Libby was charged for. Seriously, I'm an open-minded person and I've heard the Libby-is-guilty argument all too often. People who want Libby to go to jail don't know anything about the case at all. They think he's going to jail for "outing" Plame. He's going to jail for not remembering the exact words in conversations and such.

Here's a little analogy to explain what happened to Libby.

-Analogy Start-

Say you are in court, and you are being charged with stealing a blue rug from The International House of Rugs, that you never stole. Now, after detectives discover a surveillance video that filmed the stealing of the blue rug, and it's clear that you were not the one who stole the rug, you go to jail anyway. Why? Because in the testimony you called it a purple rug. You were being prosecuted for stealing a rug, not perjury, yet you're convicted of perjury for a pretty offense, if you can een call it an offense. It also so happens that the husband of the woman who owned the rug store doesn't like you, because you're friends with someone he hates. The prosecutor doesn't like the guy your friends with either, and needs a new rug himself, and wouldn't mind getting one for a discount.

-End of Analogy-

Remember, what Libby is charged with isn't even considered a crime by many, since Plame was not covert, which is why Libby and Armitage were not charged with outing a covert operative.

dogjudge
Wrong. The law in question was the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. Simply outing a CIA agent is NOT a crime. It is only a crime under certain criteria. That criteria was not met and therefore a crime was not committed. That is the reason no one was prosecuted. Same goes for you. By your logic, Clinton should have been tried and put in jail upon leaving office. Would justice have been served in that instance?

Blackdog
That Jury that several members said they wished Cheney or Rove were on trial instead?

Dogjudge - What I believe
dogjudge writes: Thursday, June, 07, 2007 1:02 PM
*** "wjriii
Consistency - Things change. No doubt about that.

That being said. Look at Mr. Thompson's remarks a little closer.

He minimizes the original issue, Monica Lewinsky. "For those who emphasize the private nature of his original misconduct, I would ask if he should be protected because he obstructed justice for such a low purpose?"

That being said, he still goes on to justify going after Clinton"***

I couldn't find your quote in the article above, but may be I missed it or it is from another article. Any way, I would ask you to look a little closer. Thompson did not make a statement; he asked a question. From this quote, he did not state that Clinton's actions should be minimized or not. He did not state that Clinton should be pursued or not.


*** "Then look at how he minimizes the charges of a crime by the CIA! "pressured", "Plame not covered", "knew the name of the leaker", I'm sorry but all of this is BS.

I'm sorry, but at the time all of this got started, from the President on down, NO ONE, let me repeat that for you, NO ONE, took the position that Plame was NOT a covert agent. If you look at my earlier post, the CIA specifically made the differentiation when all of this started." ***

I'm sorry too, but I and many people disputed the status of Plame. In addition, Plame's status was NOT addressed in the Libby trial. Fitzgerald acted to exclude this issue.

*** "So let me understand your position.

Clinton's problem started with something that wasn't against the law, but the end consequences of him being found guilty are acceptable because of his perjury.

Libby's original involvement was started because it was thought that a law concerning the security of the United States was broken, but now that the end result goes against your views, it's all wrong because of . . .

Is that what you're trying to say?" ***

No. Clinton's LEGAL problems started when he lied under oath that he had not had sex with any of his subordinates. Is that not perjury?

Libby's LEGAL problems started during the investigation before any trial when he was questioned by FBI agents about his possible involvement in the leaking of Plame's identity. He either lied, or he had a faulty memory of his actions, depending on your position. In any case, he was not the leaker of Plame's identity.

The Prosecutor's statement during the sentencing phase tried to stick the original charge of the leaking to Libby. The actual leaker of Plame's identity was not pursued. Not all cases of perjury are pursued.

The fact that Fitzgerald know early on that Libby was not the leaker and that Fitzgerald did not make the argument during trial that Plame was a undercover agent, indicates to me that the obstruction of justice charge might not have been warranted.

The judge's statement at sentencing echoed the same arguments as the prosecutor. The judge went beyond the sentencing recommendations for perjury.

To sum up, Libby either stupidly lied or didn't remember correctly. I don't positively know which. There seems to be the possibility of prosecutorial misconduct and improper sentencing. Depending on what one believes, it is reasonable for one to believe one of the following; that either he shouldn't have been charged, convicted, or sentenced so severely.

I mostly favor that he shouldn't have been charged.

Liberals are scared
I see liberals commenting on Fred on this site and dragging out/manufacturing everything they can find in the closet (whether it's in there or not). You should be worried about Fred. I am counting the days to see him debating Hillary. It's going to be fun.

apoplectic
You sir are wrong.

The original "law" was in fact the IIPA. You are correct there.

Now. Look again. On 2/11/2004 the CIA, the Department of Justice AND the President all said that the law was violated.

Do you disagree with that statement?

Fitzgerald was eventually appointed. At that time, Fitzgerald, the Department of Justice AND the President all said that the law was violated.

Do you disagree with that statement?

Now please show me ANYWHERE that it states that once Armitage admits to his violation of the law that everything should come to a halt. Especially in light of Novak's comments. You appear to be saying, well you've got one person you don't need to go any further.

Think about that. We're not talking about oral sex. We're talking about a matter that involves the national security of the nation. If there is a security breach don't you want the folks involved to see how large the breech is?

I have said that Libby was charged with, and convicted of obstruction of justice and perjury. You are the one who keeps trying to divert attention to the IIPA. Once the perjury and obstruction violations came up, it is the prosecutor's responsibility to follow through on those allegations (just like they did with Clinton).

Last point. The perjury and obstruction violations continued while Fitzgerald was still trying to find out if their were others who violated the IIPA. Libby prevented that investigation from proceeding. THAT'S BREAKING THE LAW!

Libs, Dems and RINOs are scared of FRED!
Speaking of RINOs...
I expect Dems to vote against enforcing current law but not the GOP! By God EVEN A TEXAN!!! Ms. Hutchinson- you should be ashamed! I wish you would all be re-called!

***...The Coburn amendment 1311 to require full enforcement of existing immigration laws fails, 42-54.
GOP Sens voting NAY on the Coburn amendment - that is, voting against full enforcement of existing immigration laws: LUGAR, KYL, CRAIG, VOINOVICH, COLLINS, MURKOWSKI, BROWNBACK, HAGEL, STEVENS, DOMENICI, WARNER, SPECTER, GRAHAM,HUTCHINSON, BENNETT, MARTINEZ

More Insanity
Can someone please exlain to me why the Senate needs a resolution to enforce existing laws?

I think that my head's going to explode!

wjriii
Time to agree to disagree.

When I see things that Plame was not covert, I realize that I'm not going to change your mind and your not going to change mine.

At least the discussion was reasonable.

Thanks.

Important to emphasize
Many conservatives disagreement with the conviction stems more from the ultimate sentence then the case in chief. Personally, I think the case should never have been brough and anyone who honestly thinks this was not a political witchhunt to get one of BUsh's inner circle is absolutely out of their minds.

However, the sentence was extreme- almost double the setencing guidelines. ANd Fitzgerald, that bastion of honesty and integrity, produced documents at the sentencing regarding Plame's status that the judge wouldn't let the defense have during the case in chief. This is a gross violation of the rules of evidence as well as sentencing. Fitzgerald used the unproduced documents, which eh called "irrelevant" in the case in chief to bolster a sentence against Libby, for what boils down to a memory failure. Not only does the judge double the sentence he tacks on a 250k fine.

So the punishment fit the crime ? Really. Some of you libs, who will almost inevitably end up on the wrong side of the law, may end up in the same boat. I hope to God you're shown the exact same type of "justice" that Libby was shown.

And dogjudge, I don't know how many times it has to be proven but Plame was not covert, period, final the end. If she had been, Armitage would have been prosecuted. End of story. "Feeling" like that publicty whore was undercover does not make it so.

SSGTRET
You're right SSGTRET, I forgot to add a part about a few other accused rug thieves also forgetting the color of the rug, thus making the verdict and sentance even more unjust, in my analogy.

SSGTRET
Mr. Russert wasn't part of the government as far as I know.

His memory, one way or another, didn't impede any investigations. There were other reporters who could help prove or disprove the accusations.

Mr. Russert had to get the information from someone in the government in order to leak it.

Matt, Esq.
You can keep repeating the Republican talking points about Plame not being covert.

Please give me some facts from someone in the government who agrees with your position.

Someone other than Victoria Toensing, who is far from unbiased and may possibly be going back in front of Congress for lying to Congress.

More to the point, NUMEROUS officials have contradicted Ms. Toensing's accusations.

Now how about a source?

Dogjudge - Agreeing to disagree
Thanks for the conversation.

How many times do any of these posts change minds? :-)

dogjudge
Last time, Why was no one prosecuted for the "crime"? You cannot answer that question can you? Don't give me that BS about national security. If you truly believed that, then you should also believe that Sandy Berger should be doing serious time right now. Do you?

apoplectic
You really do have a hard time focusing on issues don't you.

Why was no one prosecuted for the "crime" (I noticed that you've stopped saying there wasn't a crime committed. Thank you.)?

Who knows. Ask Fitzgerald and everyone up to the President. They are all the ones who said a crime was committed. Remember?

Beyond that, how does that change the fact that Libby broke the law by perjuring himself and obstructing justice?

Try that with the next policeman who stops you for speeding. Yeah, but that guy over there was . . .

Sandy Berger. The outcome of the justice system with Sandy Berger has absolutely no bearing whatsoever, with the guilt or innocence of Libby.

Please you keep diverting attention from your lie that NO CRIME was committed.

Bottom Line: What Prez Bush will do?
If Judge Walton orders Mr. Libby to report to prison in the next two weeks or so, I predict
President Bush will commute his sentence by removing the jail time and leave the fine intact which the rnc thru dontations will pay off. Mr. Libby will never serve a day in jail.

I also predict that if Mr. Bush takes this action it will set off a firestorm of criticism.

commutation n. the act of reducing a sentence resulting from a criminal conviction by the executive clemency of the Governor of the State, or President of the United States in the case of federal crimes. This is not the same as a pardon which wipes out the conviction or the actual or potential charge (as when President Gerald R. Ford pardoned ex-President Richard M. Nixon even without charges having been officially made--a rare instance). A pardon implies either that the conviction was wrong, that there has been complete rehabilitation of the party, or that he/she has lived an exemplary life for many years and deserves to have his/her name cleared in old age. Commutation implies the penalty was excessive or there has been rehabilitation, reform, or other circumstances such as good conduct or community service. Commutation is sometimes used when there is evidence that the defendant was not guilty but it would prove embarrassing to admit an outright error by the courts

Pardon me
If I were Bush, I would either pardon Libby or commute the sentence. He, like his father, has tried and tried to appease the fanatical demoncrats. He's talking about global warming with G8 and Nancy Pelosi says "I'm very disappointed". He's pushing amnesty for illegal aliens to get along with Ted "Swim Team" Kennedy and deomncrats still assail his every move. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to pin the Kennedy assassination on him next.

Why? Because they STILL believe that he stole the election in 2000, which he didn't. So I say pardon (or commute) away; your approval rating can't drop...and you will NEVER EVER appease the demoncrats short of dying in office.

AZPhil
I would absolutely love to be in the room when 43 and 41 would discuss the entire Plame issue.

I assume that you are aware that many of the laws we currently have on the books are due to 41 being head of the CIA and agent's identities were exposed.

If you agree with the idea that the Vice-President was the one who made the decision to release Plame's identity and the rest of the issue, I'd actually like to see him and 41 discuss the issue.

Biases aside. Do you think there is any way that 41 would have gone along with that idea?

Bush has no balls!!
If Bush had any balls, he would have already pardoned Libby. Bush does not have anyone left to impress, so now he needs to do the right thing and rub it in the face of the Dem.'s just like old Slick Willie did to the Republicans.

RR

Ex-tex
Ex-tex

As a democrat I'm not only afraid of Fred Thompson. I afraid of all the republicans.
Their crimes and you enablers have ruined my
country. You don't listen to logic or facts its all about ideology with you guys.
Really sad and pathetic.

dogjudge
You have a hard time with logic don't you? My argument is consistent. I said nothing about Libby's guilt or innocence. I said it was a waste of tax payer dollars to continue investigating when a crime had not been committed. You believe a crime was committed because the President, CIA, and DOJ said so on 2/11/04. That does not make it so. The President and CIA also said Sadaam had WMD. Was it so? Your arguments make no sense. You don't know why no one was prosecuted. You try to make the claim that it was important to prosecute Libby because of national security concerns and yet dismiss other crimes with national security concerns. You cite over and over that perjury is a crime and should therefore be punished but do not hold that same belief when it comes to Clinton. The liberal mind is something to behold to those of use who use logic and reason!!

Jack (what he doesn't know)
Wrote: "...teh Clinton impeachment gives Democrats 100% cover for anything they want to do to Republicans"

Yeah, I heard moral retards saying this back in 2000, and I knew I was listening to truly bad people back then, too.

Does it matter to you that the accusations were TRUE and BELIEVABLE? That Clinton ACTUALLY DID commit perjury, attempt to bribe and threaten witnesses, and in other ways violate the law? That the Clinton administration ACTUALLY DID obstruct federal investigations on more than one occasion?

Not to you, it doesn't matter. No, the attempt by citizens to stop a felon from committing felonies, if that felon happens to be a DEMOCRAT, makes it legitimate to hurl FALSE accusations against Republican for any reason, and to use the institutions of justice as partisan weapons against Republicans.

Boy, that's convincing logic, yessirree...

dogjudge, PULLLEEEEEZ
dogjudge wrote: "If you agree with the idea that the Vice-President was the one who made the decision to release Plame's identity and the rest of the issue..."

Do the known facts of the case mean anything to you?

The information that you INCORRECTLY regard as privileged information was released to the press by a STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE for the purpose of MAKING HIMSELF SEEM IMPORTANT.

Those are facts. They're widely known. They're actually the findings of the investigation on the subject.

So, why are you still convinced that the Vice President had anything to do with releasing Plame's identity, and that it was somehow illegal?

Plame not covert
I suppose the thing that blisters me over this case is the fact that Valerie Plame was not a covert agent. Leftist writers have "outed" genuine covert agents, some of whom DIED as a result, but they weren't punished. There were screams of "freedom of speech" and on and on. Meanwhile, Plame's kids routinely referred to their mother as "spy mom". Some secret...

Is any of this a surprise?
Isnt it Interesting that Billary claims that he thought the term "sex" refers to intercourse so he did not actually LIE because he recieved oral and in his opinion thats not sex.He walks scott free on the whole perjury issue because that joke of an excuse. Libby says he doesnt remember his exact words or who the conversation was with and he goes to jail.According to the Clintonista faith all he had to do was state that he didnt understand what the term "lie" meant and he would be free to go on the lucrative speach wagon trail. Who knows maybe even get a library out of the deal or run his wife for president.It just shows how modern trials are tried by the media not the law......look at OJ clearly guilty as sin but the media sides with the Roit threatening minorities and Bam hes free.Libby is just another casaulty in the socialist media take over of this country no surprise to me.

dogjudge, could you be consistent?
dogjudge wrote: "Sandy Berger. The outcome of the justice system with Sandy Berger has absolutely no bearing whatsoever, with the guilt or innocence of Libby."

Folks from the political Left love to proclaim the injustice of law enforcement by comparing the outcomes of cases involving black defendants against the outcomes of cases involving white defendants.

It would be perfectly reasonable to respond to those comparisons by saying "The outcome of the trial of any one defendant has not bearing whatsoever on the outcome of any other trial." Ideally, that's correct. But the Left still insists you can draw inferences about the overall justice of the process by aggregating and comparing cases.

That's all we're doing here: aggregating and comparing cases, and observing that because the process is controlled by Democrats, and because Democrats are apparently using the process in a partisan manner to excuse genuine crimes by their own while prosecuting the slightest appearance of wrongdoing by their opponents, the system has been corrupted.

It's a perfectly legitimate thing to do, and YOU do it all the time -- on topics where it suits you. So don't you FREAKIN' DARE try to retreat into pretending the system is pure as the wind-driven snow on this one, you HYPOCRITE.

With all due respect
I don't really care what happens to Scooter, although I do not wish him any harm.

I am much more concerned on rise of rogue prosecutors that is compromising our justice system.

apoplectic
Please go get a couple of books on logic before you start throwing stones. As you have aptly demonstrated, you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to that issue.

Try "Thank You for Arguing" by Jay Heinrichs. You'll learn a LOT.

Now you're back to "a crime has not been committed" silliness. You haven't been able to substantiate that idea whatsoever.

Even more ridiculous, "You believe a crime was committed because the President, CIA, and DOJ said so on 2/11/04. That does not make it so."

Well, let's see, if the President the CIA and the DOJ says that a crime has been committed and YOU say that it hasn't been committed, who are we going to believe? YOU? And you complain about logic? Please. If that statement isn't the most ridiculous statement I've heard in a while, it certainly ranks right up there.

You complain about me not knowing why someone, anyone wasn't prosecuted for a violation of IIPA. Well since you seem to feel that you're all knowing in this area, how about giving us YOUR insight as to why no one was prosecuted. And don't try "no crime", you haven't shown ANYONE in government, in an official capacity, who agrees with you about no crime being committed.

No I didn't say that it was a matter of national security to prosecute Libby. Those are your words. I said it was a matter of national security to investigate the original matter, which was a leak of a covert agent. Again, your lack of truthfulness and logic expose your weaknesses.

Clinton, blah, blah, blah. I keep saying that whatever Clinton, Sandy Berger and the rest did have absolutely no bearing on the guilt or innocence of Libby. Your lack of logic is again exposed.

Your final statement is actually your best, "The liberal mind is something to behold to those of use who use logic and reason!!"

I offer this to your supposed logic and reason. "You can keep your mouth shut and let people think you're a fool, or you can open it up and take away all doubt."

Please apoplectic, you're in way over your head.

inkling_revival
re. Vice_President Cheney.

Thank you for not editing my comment to give the wrong impression.

Please note the FIRST word. IF.

If you agree, then you can extend your conclusions. If you don't agree then you don't.

What can't you understand about that. The rest of your post is simply argumentative, and doesn't say anything.

re. Case comparisons.

If (there's that word again) you want to comment about specific things that I've expressed, or ideas that I have, fine.

I'm sorry but I can't comment on all of the ideas of the left, the liberals, the Democrats, etc. that you appear to want me to comment on.

Please go back and show me ONE comment that I've made along the lines of the justice system being pure as the driven snow.

You appear to simply be looking for a fight.

Sorry. No takers here.

dogjudge
I'm confused by your question. yes, I know Bush41 headed the CIA. You are acting as if someone knowing Valerie Plame's name would get her killed. She was never a covert agent to begin with. She was relatively insignificant, but democrats pretend she was some mole in the Kremlin in 1975.

Since i see you brought up Sandy berger a minute ago, do you think guys shoving classified documents down their pants bears investigation? And I already know it has no bearing whatsoever on the Libby case; I'm just curious how you feel it should be handled.

dogjudge, you apparently didn't read...
...your logic text very carefully.

The question of whether a crime was committed when Plame's was revealed to a reporter as a CIA agent is not a question of logic -- as I'm sure the author of your logic text would agree. It's a question of LAW. And questions of law are not settled by the opinions of Presidents (as I'm sure you agree in the case of NSA wiretaps of US citizens), nor by the opinions of CIA officers. They're settled by prosecutors, and by courts of law.

So, now, what do you offer in the way of a prosecutor responsible for the case, or of a court examining the case, regarding whether a crime was committed when Plame's name was passed to a reporter (by Richard Armitage?)

Since we know who committed the act (Armitage), and we know that he was not prosecuted for the act, and we know that the reason for the investigation was (putatively) a serious breach of national security, we can conclude that the prosecutor responsible for the case did not consider the act a serious enough breach of national security to warrant an arrest.

Why does this not satisfy you?

As to this: "I said it was a matter of national security to investigate the original matter, which was a leak of a covert agent..." We might actually believe you on this, if it were not the case that ACTUAL covert agents had been outed by Democrat Senators and by Democrat-controlled newspaper reporters, and there was not a single complaint from the likes of you... even when an agent's family disappeared.

So, no, I'm not buying the "national security" LIE. This was a partisan witch hunt, aimed at proving what delusional cranks like you KNOW -- that Bush, Cheney, Rove, and everyone around them are all snarling, drooling demons, conspiring to eat your children for breakfast while fattening themselves on the wealth of the nation.

You're transparent, dude. Give it up. Oh, and stop pretending to be the fount of True Logic, when you clearly don't know the proper purpose of logic.

dogjudge, come on now...
Wrote: "I'm sorry but I can't comment on all of the ideas of the left, the liberals, the Democrats, etc. that you appear to want me to comment on.... Please go back and show me ONE comment that I've made along the lines of the justice system being pure as the driven snow."

How did I know you were going to play this game with me?

Look me in the eye, and tell me with a straight face that you've never argued that the system of justice is broken, using compilations of case outcomes comparing white and black defendents. I'll bet you can do it, too -- but you're a liar down to the core of your very being.

I'll bet you've got some bridges to sell, too. I'm not buyin' those, either.

Democrats simply make me puke. You guys don't even HAVE convictions. You just grab someone else's conviction that happens to be lying around and use it when it sounds good, and then discard it when you're done, like yesterday's underwear. That's why you can say HORSE S**T like "Berger has no bearing on Libby's case" with a straight face, and expect us to buy it -- you're using our GENUINE convictions against us, like the evil s**t you are. I'll bet you even think you believe it... but next month, you'll be defending aggregate statistics about crimes as though you'd never even heard the concept that the outcome of one case has no bearing on any other.

How can any good come out of attempting reasonable debate with servants of hell?

AZPhil
If you don't mind I'd like to restrict things to the point before you start taking issue about Plame being covert. There's no doubt that we are not going to come close to agreeing on that issue.

If (there I'm using that word again) you agree with what has been said about her, that she was the head of a group then that's the problem.

Hopefully you can see that once her name was revealed ANYONE who was associated with her would potentially be put in danger.

I am not trying to be obstinate here. If you agree with that fine, if not you're welcome to your opinion. Nothing that I would say would change your opinion.

inkling_revival
No need to respond.

Gotta go.

MassachusettsLiberal
Actually, once we get RID of you libstains, with your perverted and corrupt lifestyles, we go revert back to a decent America, like we had before the rise of the hippie trash.

BTW, check my blog on Hitlary coming out of the closet. THAT will go over well in the Heartland.

dogjudge
Plame wasn't covert, plain and simple.

Meanwhile, do you have a response to what to do about Berger?

dogjudge
Let me break down the logic for you. According to the IIPA, in order for it to be a crime you have to out a CIA agent that you know is covert. Bush, the CIA, and DOJ did not know on 2/11/2004 who outed Plame. If they didn't know who outed her, they couldn't possibly know if that person knew she was covert. It's not about what I say, it's is pure and simple logic. Something you are incapable of understanding apparently.

Robert
Yeah, Plame was REAL covert. Driving into the CIA Headquarters at Langley along a road so crowded, that it's stop and go 3 hours in the AM and in the PM. No to mention that anyone can stand outside the turnoff and photograph ANYONE going in.

REAL covert.

apoplectic
Yep, in the minds of moonbats, it's okay that Burgular was given a pass for doing the SAME THING a Virginia man did, and got FIVE YEARS in Club Fed and a 250,000 fine while Libby, who has YET to be proved to have done ANY WRONG, gets slammed.

As Orwell stated about these "pigs", "less is more."

.....her neighbors did not know she was

The bottom line is "covert agents" as covered by the ACT don't drive to spook HQ every day to work. If they did they'd be outing themselves every day. I would think this goes without saying.....

Robert
Covert means the ENEMY that you have penetrated DOES NOT know who you are.

BTW, when I graduated intel analyst school way back in 82, I got a nice letter from the Russian Embassy in DC congratulating me on it.

Plame was on a desk at CIA HQ, hardly in danger.

get a brain.

Robert
I'm just amazed that stupid liberals keep defending Open Zipper Bubba.

I'm really amazed that stupid liberals think that Plame was covert and Burgular was innocent.

Thus proving over and over that to liberals, stupid is as stupid does.

phoenix 09
Reference your 10:36 retort. Refute, do not try to be clever with the TV title game. Fred's argument is clear and the major points few--surely you can counter them one by one. Show us all how legally erudite you are.

Matt, Esq.
Not to mention Plame should have been charged for an ethics violation using her hubby for the Niger report. Joe baby should be charged for filing a false official statement.

Too bad Bush and Company lacks a set of nuts when facing down scummy libsquirts.

dogjudge...
"So on 2/11/04, the President, the CIA and the Department of Justice ALL thought that a crime was committed. "

They did.
And if any crime was committed, it was by Armitage, not Libby.
But once we figured out that no crime was committed, their opinion changed.
Remember, he wasn't convicted of leaking anything.
He was convicted of obstruction and perjury.
According to his side of the story, he simply didn't recall events correctly.

"Well, let's see, if the President the CIA and the DOJ says that a crime has been committed and YOU say that it hasn't been committed, who are we going to believe? YOU?"

The President, the CIA, and the DOJ thought a crime had been committed, then all charges related to the crime they thought had been committed were dropped.
So no crime was committed when it comes to the leak.
That's why Libby wasn't convicted of leaking anything.
Because there was no leak at all. In other words, the investigation had all but lost traction. Instead of dropping the case, or going after Armitage, Fitzgerald went after a conservative in the White House.
"On August 29, 2006 Neil A. Lewis of The New York Times reported that Armitage was the "initial and primary source" for columnist Robert Novak's July 14, 2003 article, which named Valerie Plame as a CIA "operative" and which triggered the CIA leak investigation.[17] On August 30, 2006, CNN reported that Armitage had been confirmed "by sources" as leaking Ms. Wilson's CIA role in a "casual conversation" with Robert Novak"
On September 7, 2006, Armitage admitted to being the source in the CIA leak.
So yes, everyone thought a leak happened and everyone thought it was a crime.
Richard Armitage admitted to being that leak, yet remains unprosecuted.
I guess I don't understand your reasoning here - You say that everyone thought a leak occurred and that the President wanted to know who that was. Here we are. We all know who leaked what. Yet Libby had the book thrown at him.
In his defense, Libby told investigators that he first heard of Plame's CIA employment from journalist Tim Russert and that he had forgotten that Vice President Dick Cheney had already told him that information.
The jury, chock full of activist Democrats, chose not to believe him.
They were asked to consider things that we not presented as evidence.

Furthermore:
"On August 28, 2006, it was reported that Richard Armitage was the primary source of the Valerie Plame leak and that Fitzgerald knew this at the beginning of his investigation."
So he knew who was to blame for the leak and decided to target Libby instead.

Here's what I think:
Knowing that the leak itself was not a crime, Fitzgerald went about trying to find a decent scapegoat to prosecute. He knew that if he came back and said "there is nothing here, I'm going home" the left would be furious and the liberal press would villify him. He chose to go after anyone who he could convict for anything.
He found an exhausted Libby an all too easy target. Libby couldn't remember and when pushed, gave bad info.
This didn't impede the investigation, nor did it throw it off track.
All it did was serve the left a conviction - anything to mar Bush further.
Perjury is defined as: The criminal act of purposefully lying while under oath.
PURPOSEFULLY lying under oath.
Obstruction of justice is defined as: This category includes intentionally obstructing court or law enforcement efforts in the administration of justice, acting in a way calculated to lessen the authority or dignity of the court, failing to obey the lawful order of a court, and violations of probation or parole other than technical violations, which do not consist of the commission of a crime or are not prosecuted as such.
So how did Libby's bad memory testimony qualify for either?

Gunny
"As Orwell stated about these "pigs", "less is more."

You can say that again!! Oh, since I'm quoting here, I guess you just did.

Black Dog
Ref your 12:54. Bill Clinton lied to me personally and shook his finger in my face. I despise the SOB for it and he is guilty of it. There is no such thing as consensual sex on the job with a subordinate in your employ. Even in the military(he was the Commander in Chief) adultery is punishable by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Bill Clinton is and was guilty in so many ways of so many governmental policies and guidelines that he should have had his buttons cut from his clothes and been drummed out the gate, in shame, of our Republic.

apoplectic
Orwell has the libstain's number when he wrote 1984.

Ronald Reagan had their number when he stated: "there he [they] go again."

I have their number every day on my blog when I expose their scumbaggery!

Check out Hitlery coming out of her closet on my blog...like we did not know the read deal back in 93 with her and DiDi Myers.

Warrior
You're wasting your keystrokes on Black Dog. He's so blinded by race it ain't funny.

As for senior/subordinate sex in the military, I once escorted a former E-7, who had sex with one of his troops, an E-3, and she called the idiot's WIFE after she fell in love with him! haha.

17.5 years DOWN the drain. He got 6 months in the brig, 6 months loss of all pay, busted to E-2, and a Dishonorable Discharge.

All Velcro-Fly Bubba got was disbarred and a fine. Big whoop.

Robert
Federal officers are NOT covert agents UNLESS they are undercover. I have bogus creds in my line of work so I know WTF I'm talking about.

Thank YOU for playing. We always welcome liberal court jesters here at TH. Especially since lilly and the Kimbat are AWOL!

Robert
For someone who says that he carried a badge in the Federal arena, I'm surprised that you don't know what Impeachment really is.

Bubba WAS impeached by the Congress. It's THEIR job to find out if something wrong was done. It was. Then the Senate, for some unholy reason, did not convict him like they should have. That is THEIR job. They failed miserably.

The American people have no say-so about the Impeachment of a POTUS or you BDS suffering libstains would have impeached Bush in Jan 2001.

To those who say there was no crime:
Do you really think that because it cannot be proven that someone committed a crime that means that they didn't?

Some crimes are harder to prove than others. especially hard to prove are the crimes that involve the person's intention. The outing of Valerie Plame falls under this category.

Reading the rants on this subject by people on my side of the aisle is really pissing me off. You people are giving us honest Republicans a bad name. Stop it.

Robert
For someone who says that he carried a badge in the Federal arena, I'm surprised that you don't know what Impeachment really is.

Bubba WAS impeached by the Congress. It's THEIR job to find out if something wrong was done. It was. Then the Senate, for some unholy reason, did not convict him like they should have. That is THEIR job. They failed miserably.

The American people have no say-so about the Impeachment of a POTUS or you BDS suffering libstains would have impeached Bush in Jan 2001.

Robert
I did not know that the American people were able to vote on impeachment articles.

I guess I was robbed since no one asked ME about it. But then again, I was 10,000 miles away on The Rock.

As far as Plame goes, she was not doing undercover work, and if you can't grasp that, you must have been a sh*tty cop. And I see that you never replied to my info on the USSR letter, which I still have BTW. So much for being covert.

But keep beating that dead horse, it might come alive.

Robert
In your post at 7:05 PM, you forgot to say, "thanks for playing." You broke your pattern of libspew.

Robert
Actually, it was math. The bar for an impeached president to be convicted is pretty high (67 Senators). With 45 or so democrats (at the time) who would not have convicted him if there was videotape of him murdering someone, the outcome was pretty much a foregone conclusion.

Impeachment
I'm not even sure how we strayed here. the point remains, if i were Bush, I would pardon Scooter (even though that is a ridiculous name). He tried working with the democrats; it didn't work. They will never acknowledge that he won in 2000, so just pardon the guy and be done with it. Compared to the Marc Rich thing, this is not even newsworthy. What can happen? You won't get re-elected?

Back to impeachment, I say go ahead. President Cheney wouldn't be appeasing anyone, and if you think Iraqis have been killed so far, let him have the Oval Office.

PARDON ME FRED BUT
It's simple Fred - ask any third grader, Don't Lie, Don't Cheat, Don't steal. Scooter lied repeatedly to cover for his godfather Cheney. This wasn't faulty memory it was part of a orchestrated strategy to thwart the investigation directed by the White House. The reason the prosecutor can't get at the truth of who outed Plame and indict for same is because of the coverup that continues to this day with Scooter's help. The only way Scooter serves any time is if he tells the truth. So long as he remain silent Cheny skates and Bush will pardon him on his way out of office even as he is the lowest rated President of all time. As a former prosecutor you should be more cautious about being judgmental about the motives and actions of a fellow prosecutor who knows much more about the dynamics of the case than you can ever hope. This isn't tv its the real deal.

Robert
First, Nixon was never impeached.

I'm not sure how the Gingrich-era Republicans "paid for it"...they JUST lost the Congressional majority in 2006, several years after the fact, and by a cat's whisker then.

As for this: "Hence the Dems were perfectly within their right to not vote for removal. I would not have."

Right, but they would not have voted to remove him no matter what. Nor would you have, I surmise.

Of course impeachment is political, since only politicians can do it.

Regarding this: In my view the impeachment of Mr. Nixon (sic) (and his removal had it gone that far) was the one legitmate excersize of that function...

So, I think I get this now.

Andrew Johnson (D) impeached - illegitimate
Richard Nixon (R) impeached (well, not really) - legitimate
Bubba Clinton (D) impeached - illegitimate

I think I mihgt see a pattern here...

Don't worry, on Jan 20, 2009, you'll have a "legitimate" president. Well, unless the democrats lose, in which case the election will be "tainted". Have a good night, and thanks for playing.

Robert
Here is your post. One recommendation. If you can't use logic, at least write something coherent. Seriously, I assume I'm being insulted here, but I'm not even positive.

Cheney...
AZPhil writes: Thursday, June, 07, 2007 7:22 PM
...the new name of fool.

WE know for a fact....not so much actually...what a dufus. I hope when he goes to bed he sees the faces of all the Americans who have died in combat.

If there is a hell for history, he will be in it.

Robert

PTS, please get a clue...
PTS wrote: "Some crimes are harder to prove than others. Especially hard to prove are the crimes that involve the person's intention. The outing of Valerie Plame falls under this category."

Scooter Libby was accused and convicted of perjury, pertaining to testimony he offered in a deposition to FBI officers. The reason he was not accused of "outing" Plame is not that it was too hard to prove his intentions, but because the Prosecutor already knew who "outed" her, and it wasn't Libby. That's not one of those difficult prosecutorial tasks, it's a simple matter of fact.

Moreover, the Prosecutor did not complain about the difficulty of proving intentions in this case. About the ACTUAL person who outed Ms. Plame, the Prosecutor intimated that he was convinced it was to make himself seem important. So the Prosecutor's own words don't even support your position.

If you're going to scold others about how they're giving "honest Republicans" a bad name, at least get your damn facts straight.

PTS also wrote: "Do you really think that because it cannot be proven that someone committed a crime that means that they didn't?"

No, we don't think that. We're used to watching criminal Democrats get "exonerated" on the basis of technicalities. But this case is very different -- there isn't sound evidence that ANY crime was committed, prior to the investigation. There wasn't such evidence at the time, and there's even less evidence now.

For the record: there's all the difference in the world between clearly criminal acts about which it's difficult to determine who's guilty, and ordinary, legal acts that somebody is suggesting we'll find to have been criminal if we just dig around enough. The Clinton administration was full of the former. Every complaint about the Bush administration has been the latter.

All you lefties who are taking the tack
...like ALANROBINSON WHOSE CAP LOCKS KEY GOT STUCK, "Don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal," I want to hear from you why you didn't demand that President Bill Clinton step down from office, let alone why you don't think he should have been in jail at least as long as Libby.

Actually, no, I don't want to hear, because then I'll have to spend another significant fraction of my life explaining why it wasn't "just about sex," and why, even if it were, there isn't an exemption for "just about sex" in any civilization's moral code, nor in our nation's laws.

To dogjudge: Plame Was NOT Covert
We went through this the other day: Plame was NOT "covert" within the meaning of the Agent Identities Protection Act. You can call Plame an "operative" all you want, but that does NOT trtigger the application fo the Agent Identities Protection Act.

To be "covert," you need, among other things, to have a foreign posting within the last five years and to have the C.I.A. take affirmative steps to conceal the identity. Plame had been a Washington D.C. desk bound analyst for six or seven years; foreign trips do not satisfy the statute; and Plame's identity was not given the special concealment required.

That Plame was NOT "covert" within the meaning fo the Agent Identities Protection Act is the opinion of Victoria Toensing, the lawyer who was a principal draftsperson of what became the 1982 Agent Identities Protection Act for the sponsorship of then Senator Barry Goldwater; and Ms. Toensing has been making this point for some time and explaining that the definition of “covert” was given the definition it was in order not to impede public discussion of public issues.

Furthermore, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald did not charge anyone with violating the Agent Identities Protection Act -- particularly one Richard Armitage, the one who revealed Victoria Plame to journalist Bob Novak -- because Fitzgerald couldn't charge anyone with violating the Agent Identities Protection Act without directly confronting the problem that he would have to prove that Valerie Plame was covert when she wasn't. The advantage of the perjury and obstruction of justice charges for Fitzgerald was that he could intimate that Plame was covert without having to prove it. My view is that Fitzgerald played a sleazy prosecutor’s game with respect to the issue of what was the non-covert status of Plame. It was his motion the trial judge granted to keep out of the jury's consideration the question of Plame's status, yet during the trial and in his closing talked about how revealing Plame's identity endangered her, as if that had anything to do with the narrow charges against Libby.

Now, docgjudge, it is time for you to get off your soapbox.

Plame covert & who lied
Was Plame covert?

The Chicago Tribune searched for Plame on an Internet service that sells public information about private individuals to its subscribers, and got a report of more than 7,600 words. Included was the fact that in the early 1990s her address was "AMERICAN EMBASSY ATHENS ST, APO NEW YORK NY 09255." Even a halfway witting soul can discern that this person is probably a member of the intelligence or law enforcement community.

I've seen references on this page to "lies" told by Bush or Cheney or some nebulous "they", to justify war. Let's refresh some memories and see who lied.

What did Bush say in the 2003 State of the Union address?

"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Was that a lie? Resoundingly NO!

Some facts:

British intelligence assured the CIA that Saddam Hussein had tried to buy enriched uranium from the African country of Niger.

Britain's independent Butler Commission concluded that the conclusion was "well-founded." They concluded this:

a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.

b. The British government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger's exports, the intelligence was credible.

c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium, and the British government did not claim this.

Mr. Wilson (Mr. Valerie Plame), far from challenging the British report when he was "debriefed" on his
return from Niger, actually strengthened the CIA's belief in its accuracy. From the Senate Intelligence Committee report:

"He [the CIA reports officer] said he judged that the most important fact in the report [by Mr. Wilson] was that Niger officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Niger prime minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium.

And:

The report on [Mr. Wilson's] trip to Niger... did not change any analysts' assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original CIA reports on the uranium deal.

So, did Bush lie? Did Cheney lie? If so, how?


No crime?
Yes nobody has been charged with the leaking. The fact that there is no crime means nothing. That is why they have an investigation. Not every investigation discovers a crime. But if somebody commits perjury during that investigation, that is a crime unto itself. He was not charged with covering up a crime, he was charged for lying and he did lie and the politicians make the laws and sentencing guidelines. They had the opportunity to right the laws and the sentencing guidelines for six years. What the hell is everyone's malfunction on this? I bet they could have even gotten Clinton to sign those sentencing guidelines for the six years they worked with him.

And for the record you people are right...I didn't think Clinton should have been impeached. It would have been humanly impossible to impeach Clinton because he would have fallen victim to the sentencing guidelines for treason are after his handling of Waco.

Of course Bush should be impeached for his handling of the border and warrantless wiretapping. If there is a catastrophic terrorist attack due to wide open borders, treason would be just. This guy wants to go into Iran and he left our southern border open for six years. How crazy is that? Al Qaeda doesn't attack now because they don't have to, it may be a little harder for them to get around but it seems the only ones getting caught are the guys who take their jihad movies to Bestbuy, not exactly Al Qaeda's A-Team. After we attack Iran with our porous border we will be introduced to less patient Shiite terrorists and freedom will become basically nonexistent especially if that Napoleonic psychopath Rudy gets in office. That guy was getting giddy over tracking everyone last night. If only we could put everyone in a database? Don't put liberals that are "tough on crime" in office because your rights will go straight out the window, what's left of them.

Phil Byler
You are wrong again.

Please tell me one, just one, governmental person who would be in an appropriate position, who has made the statement that Plame was NOT covert.

Your nonsense about the IIPA is just that. It is your OPINION counselor that she wasn't covert. I would guess primarily based on Victoria Toensing's comments. Other than Ms. Toensing, please give me one person who is in a position to make that statement, who has cooberated Ms. Toensing's statement?

More to the point you have an additional item. Ms. Toensing has based her OPINION entirely on whether Ms. Plame was overseas during the last five years. Mr. Fitzgerald and the CIA have recently dispelled Ms. Toensing's five year comments. So counselor, your in court. You've got Ms. Toensing on one side and the CIA and one of the Attorney Generals of the United States on the other side. Who do you think the judge is going to side with?

Let's see. On my side, we have the CIA at various points. The CIA recently in their declassified statement that Fitzgerald used. We have Fitzgerald. We have Gates (the head of the CIA). All have said she was covert, along with others.

You're the famous lawyer. Give me some substantiated evidence counselor.

The reason that no one was charged, is up for conjecture. You as a lawyer are aware of how much that will stand up in court.

My OPINION is because you have to prove intent, which is extremely difficult to prove. Who knows what other reasons there might have been.

As a lawyer, you're well aware of the fact that the law might have been broken and proving it is quite another step.

That being said, please give me anything to substantiate your deception that Ms. Plame wasn't covert.

Victoria Toensing
A lot of you are basing you stand about Ms. Plame not being covert based on comments made by Victoria Toensing.

Admittedly she is one of the primary architects of the IIPA law. No argument there.

Two points.

Our founding fathers gave us the Constitution. We are still interpreting that. Just because Ms. Toensing was involved with drafting the law, doesn't necessarily mean that she is the final say when it comes to interpreting the IIPA law.

More to the point. Ms. Toensing is basing her non-covert assertion on Ms. Plame's overseas assignments.

I'm sorry, but I don't see anywhere in Ms. Toensing's resume that she has ever worked at the CIA in personnel. Can you please explain to me why when the CIA says that Ms. Plame WAS covert based on her overseas assignments that Ms. Toensing would be in any position, or have any special knowledge, to refute that statement?

no more republicans
When you say.."How was Libby obstructing justice if there was no underlying crime to cover up?".. Your exactly right! So why did the witch-hunting Demo/Libs pursue that course? And why did the traitorous Republicans cave in? The man is Innocent!

Too Many Lawyers
The problem with this country is too many lawyers, lawyars, liawyars, liayars, liyars, liars,...... that's it, too many liars.

I Know
Yes, I know that FT's a lawyer.

Black Dog
Your right! But it is not something I'm spinning. Answer all thw questions you just asked me!

NMR
I will try to explain this, although you are so conditioned I don't know why I should bother. You and your ilk automatically slobber "traitor-traitor" whenever Libby's name is mentioned. Like Pavlov's dog, you MUST respond to the bell.

Returning to realty:

Libby did NOT out Plame, Armitage did.

Libby testified a couple of phone calls out of order and got a couple of reporters mixed up YEARS after the event. Can you recite to me the contents of all your phone conversations that long ago?

Libby was not allowed to defend on motive, as before the trial Fitz declared Plame's status and whether Libby knew of it immaterial to the case.

Libby was demied a defense on grouds that memory is not a digital recorder. He was not allowed testimony by memory experts.

In other words, Libby was not allowed any effective defense but a weak "scapegoat" defense that was so thin you could see stars through it.

He is now being sentenced based on a crime he was never charged with and was not allowed to defend against because it was "irrelevent".

Imagine being hauled in for jaywalking, not being allowed to tell the jury that the traffic lights were out and there were no signals, and besides, you are in a wheelchair. After the no-defense-allowed trial and inevitible gulty verdict, you are then sentenced - for aggrivated assault.


This was not justice. This was not law and order. This was a Court of Australian Long-Tailed Marsupials fit for Castro's Cuba!

Random-Numbers
Right on!

BTW
I do NOT think Bush should pardon Libby. He should commute the sentence and allow Libby to rerain free while the Circuit Court of Appeals throws this conviction into fire.

A small point - Definition of jaywalking
In many places, jaywalking is a violation only if the crossing is made at a point between two intersections with working lights.



If I ran Townhall, I’d have a test
If I ran Townhall, I’d have a test for all potential posters: people would have to pass a simple test before they could post comments.
For example:

IF X be equal to Y, and Y be equal to Z——
a) then X and Z are different.
b) then X and Z are the same.
c) then X and Z are sometimes equal, and sometimes different, depending on how many people believe that.
d) then Big Oil is at fault, and A and C are not involved.

IF a President said something——
a) then it must be true, even if in the past I always called him a liar.
b) then it must be false, even if he were only expressing an opinion on subjects whereof he knew little or nothing
c) then it will be taken down and may be used in evidence.
d) then he ought to be ashamed.

IF a person be losing an argument to another person——
a) he or she should criticise the other’s ancestry, personal hygiene and sexual behabiour.
b) he or she should explain all dissent as typical of liberals’ inability to reason.
c) he or she should explain all dissent as typical of conservatives’ inability to reason.
d) he or she should base arguments on facts.

Reason and logic——
a) are two different things
b) are exactly the same
c) are sadly neglected in schools
d) are constantly invoked by those who have little real knowledge of either.

oops
“for A and C are not involved,” read “X and Z are not involved.”

If I ran Townhall I’d also allow editing of posts (and I’d allow tags).

I should have also noted that questions may have more than one correct answer.

Fred Thompsan shows his true colors
The fact of the matter is that the jury convicted Libby of intentionally lying.

Texas executed man who was convicted of a murder committed while he was seventeen on the word of one witness.

The US is trying to punish a Guantanamo prisoner for acts that he committed as young as ten.

A secretary tried to sell the formula to Coke. The federal judge gave her eight years, saying it was one of the worse he had seen.

Someone like Libby who has had all the advantages in life, someone who could have hired a lawyer when he was being questioned, and was found to intentionally break the law should serve the longest sentence that can reasonably be applied under the law.

By urging a pardon for Libby Thompson only shows he is will to pervert the legal process for his own partisan gains. If he is acting this irresponsibly now, imagine what he would be like as a president.

Boobert: The question of intent is key
Intent requires some reason or motive, and questioning weather or not the defendant had reason to intentionally decieve the Grand Jury would be relevant if anyone NOT bonnected to the evil genius idiot monkey BushCo.
Unfortunately, Libby was not allowed to challenge any motive for perjury, because it was "immaterial". Fitz presented facts not in evidence as regarding motive in his closing arguments.

Just watch. This conviction will be thrown out due to lack of due process.

faulty memories
Strange, liberals seem to forget that Clinton revelled in the forced retirements of 3 military officers for the same exact crimes he committed. I remember his smiling face on TV telling the public he would not let persons in positions of power use that power for "sexual harassment" and sexual exploitation, he got great pleasure in announcing the forced retirement of the general in question. How ironic, months later Clinton was the culprit, somehow there was now no crime committed, it was just a misunderstanding. The exact positions Clinton had bragged that he would enforce, to the max, were now o.k. Liberals are hypocrits to the extreme. Sandy Berger versus Scooter Libby is the perfect example, Berger should be up for treason along with his accomplice Clinto, Hillary steals the clasified FBI files and blackmails constituents, but thats o.k. Look under low life in the dictionary and you will find a picture of both Clintons.

Militant leftist
I agree that Libby was lawfully tried and judged.

And I also believe he probably committed perjury.

And I also agree that Libby has the RIGHT to have his case judged separately on the facts, and not have facts from previous cases such as Clinton and Berger to interfere.

None of that is not why I object to his conviction or this sentence.

I object to his conviction because he was essentially denied his right to remain silent. The responsibility for this goes to GWB. (Look at the the quotes of GWB that dogjudge posted at 12:10 PM yesterday.) He basically had three choices. (1) He could take the 5th and lose his job, fired by his own President, (2) he could take the stand and admit he told a reporter that Plame worked at the CIA, and (3) he could take the stand and deny he told any reporter about Plame, risking a charge of perjury.

Any choice he makes, he loses.

I also object to the sentence. The probation report recommended 15-20 months, with reasons to make it less than 15, not more than 20. And the same judge who forbade the defense from introducing evidence that Plame was NOT covert allowed the prosecutor to get away with using this in his sentencing argument. Plame's status was either relevant or it wasn't. It doesn't switch from irrelevant to relevant at the convenience of the prosecution. For this I blame the judge.

But foremost I object to the fact that these charges were ever brought in the first place. For this I blame Fitzgerald. He had the answers (plural) to his assignment within two weeks after starting. And there should only have been two answers needed.

(1) Was Plame covert? If the CIA wouldn't (or couldn't) tell Fitzgerald this, even under subpoena, he has no case because he has no crime. And if they could he should have known this immediately, since it was the CIA that was demanding an investigation. Instead, to this day we have no definitive determination of her status.

Fitzgerald claims he didn't charge Libby with outing Plame because it was impossible to know if Libby did this intentionally, but this runs directly contrary to the mad dog way he has pursued Libby and the rest of the Bush Administration in this matter. No, you can be sure that if outing Plame was a crime, Fitzgerald would have charged Libby with that too.

(2) Finally, at the heart of the matter, who actually leaked Plame's identity? It was Armitage, an anti-war dissenter in the same State Department that was a thorn in Bush's side throughout his first term. If outing Plame was a crime, why wasn't the man who did it charged? More importantly, having 'solved' his case with Armitage's 'confession' just two weeks after starting, Fitzgerald had no business dragging his investigation out for two years; no business subpoenaeing the highest-ranking members of the administration (ANY administration) multiple times each over a matter that was already solved.

Regardless of what Libby may have told reporters, or lied about on the stand, the 'heinous' crime of outing the identity of an agent, covert or not, was committed by Armitage, not Libby. And there was no useful purpose in even subpoenaing Libby, let alone prosecuting him.

The purpose, and the prosecution,was entirely political. And covert agents are NOT safer with Libby in jail.

wiseone
Thank you for your reasoned comments.

Your point #1. As I said above on 2/11/2004 the CIA filed charges with the DOJ. At that time, they asserted that Plame was covert. Ditto about the CIA about a week ago.

You also make the statement "that to this day . . ." Here's a link about the CIA saying she was covert at the time this all happened.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18924679/

What is your basis for saying that Plame wasn't covert?

Your point #2. As I've said numerous times here. Novak said that his release came from "multiple" governmental sources. Fitzgerald would have been derelict in his duty had he stopped his investigation after learning about Armitage. Additionally, Fitzgerald had information at the time that potentially showed that a group of people were involved in this. (You can call that part a witch hunt if you want, but I WANT a prosecutor to find out if there is a conspiracy when it comes to these types of issues.)

Why do you feel the investigation should have stopped with the Armitage revelation?

Finally, what happened with Armitage, vis a vis Libby, doesn't change the fact that Libby was guilty of perjury and obstruction of justice.


dogjudge
Still waiting for your response. You said

"Well, let's see, if the President the CIA and the DOJ says that a crime has been committed and YOU say that it hasn't been committed, who are we going to believe? YOU? And you complain about logic? Please. If that statement isn't the most ridiculous statement I've heard in a while, it certainly ranks right up there."

My Response
Let me break down the logic for you. According to the IIPA, in order for it to be a crime you have to out a CIA agent that you know is covert. Bush, the CIA, and DOJ did not know on 2/11/2004 who outed Plame. If they didn't know who outed her, they couldn't possibly know if that person knew she was covert. It's not about what I say, it's is pure and simple logic. Something you are incapable of understanding apparently.

Don't like being proved wrong by a fool?

apoplectic
You state, " If they didn't know who outed her, they couldn't possibly know if that person knew she was covert."

Would you agree that on 2/11/04, the CIA, the President, the DOJ knew that the name of a covert agent had been released?

As of that same date, they knew that a possible crime had been committed.

At that point you have an investigation to see if a crime has been committed or not. Correct? You don't just let it die.

Wouldn't you agree that there's an ENTIRELY different situation between investigating a potential crime and saying that "no crime" was committed. If you will please go back and look at your posts, that's what you said, and that's what I have been arguing.

Unfortunately with the way this law is phrased, you have to prove intent. Which is probably why Armitage wasn't charged. MY OPINION.

Once an investigation begins into a potential crime, it is the responsibility of everyone in this country to answer questions from the FBI, the Grand Jury, etc. truthfully. Mr. Libby chose not to do that. At that point in time, he broke a different law(s).

dogjudge
Yes there is a difference between a crime was possibly committed and no crime was committed. Kind of undermines your argument from yesterday though (a crime was committed because so and so said it was). If as you say, Fitzgerald was looking for a second suspect who outed Plame (since he clearly already knew Armitage already admitted it), I would think the perjury would go a long way towards proving intent. Therefore, he could have charged Libby with the original crime he was investigating. The problem he had was proving that Plame was covert and that the suspects knew she was. He knew this from day 1. As I've said over and over, I'm not defending Libby's guilt or innocence. My argument all along is that this was a big waste of taxpayer dollars by another rogue prosecuter with a personal vendetta or an inflated ego. Either way, he should be out of a job.

apoplectic
The crime committed was perjury and obstruction of justice.

As far as Plame.

Fitzgerald was investigating that situation.

Part of the BIG problem with IIPA is proving intent. There are different parts of the law. No matter how many people may have released Plame's name, you still have to prove that they intended to do this even though they KNEW she was covert.

Truthfully I don't know if there are any other requirements of that law that had to be met.

So even with the admission from Armitage, if Fitzgerald was going to prove that Armitage broke the law, Fitzgerald would have to prove the intent portion. That's part of the reason the investigation didn't stop with Armitage's admission.

Obviously you don't like what happened and what the outcome has been. That's your prerogative.

Another Non-Case, Another Squall!
Good essay, Fred Thompson. Your frank openness increases my support for you, and I look forward to your official entry into the race. Then your specifics will open a few doubting eyes to your consistency and Conservative principles.

I think the 'facts' of the Libby case have become pretty well known. The participants' actions and non-actions speak for themselves. Yes, this was a non-case for all but the Liberals and their apologists. There'll probably be a book on it published for the judge, or the prosecutor at least.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch. Sandy the Burglar gets a slap on the wrist for stealing and destroying classified documents. He didn't know how they got into his socks and underwear. They just had their own agendas and wanted him to remove and destroy them.

Is it any wonder people are upset about the Libby case and the Burger case?

Why doesn't President Bush listen to his crumbling support on a few things. His present course is destroying his power and influence. Pardon Libby and air the obvious injustice of the case before it loses its meaning. And find some better way to punish Libby for his blatent law breaking and theft of [probably damaging] documents from the Clinton administration files.

Leftist Liberals
DogjudgeYour name says it all....

no more republicans.......denial of the fact that she was not covert doesn't make her covert...idiocy.....

liberals....can't see the facts through their hatred....would rather run than fight.....like America bashing better than anything.....what a waste.

Prosecute Fitzgerald & the Judge
If anyone needs to be prosecuted for sending a decent and innocent man to prison it should be Patrick Fitzgerald and the judge for this miscarriage of justice. This was obviously done for political reasons.

While they are at it, they should also prosecute Valerie Plame and her husband Joe Wilson. They are the ones who started this farce in the first place.

This only confirms that crime does pay in Washington, DC, particularily if you are a Democrat and a Republican goes to prison in your place instead. Plus, they will reap the financial rewards in millions of dollars for writing a book stating how "corrupt" President Bush is and how he "lied" to get us in a war in Iraq.

There is a nice warm place in hell waiting for scumbags like these.

SimonPotter
I'll make you a deal.

I'll compare my record of supporting the US to yours any day of the week.

Let's start with the Air Force from '67 to '71.

Cut and run.

Nice spin. You want to prove to me what you've done to pay this country back for what it's given you?

Covert versus not covert?

What's your point? You haven't expressed especially well.

Bush administration
Here are some comments from John Dean. Admittedly not a fan of this administration, he does bring up some interesting points about investigating pardons.

I suspect Patrick Fitzgerald will be watching with great interest any pardon action. After all, he was working in the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York when that office ignored the refusal of the Bush Department of Justice, under Attorney General Ashcroft, to investigate former President Bill Clinton's pardon of financier Marc Rich.

What will happen if Fitzgerald observes Bush pardoning Libby without any better rationale than the paper-thin ones Fred Thompson and friends have been pushing? One would be wise to remember that Fitzgerald will still have five years before the statute of limitations runs to find out why such a pardon was issued, as occurred with Clinton's Marc Rich bottom. Fitzgerald's appointment as Special Counsel ends when he ends it, and given his apparent view that Cheney is at the heart of the Plame scandal, I don't expect him to end it prematurely.

Political Justice Begs For Pardon
Libby got caught up in a political parlor game of "he said - she said". It means nothing. It was not a lie, but inconsistent, nearly incoherent, double talk. It happens all the time in normal courts, without repercussions. But, in Politics, we tend to deal with meaningless nuances to prove a point. Nothing more. Pardon the guy, and let's move on.

Scooter Is No Traitor, Bush Is Not Liar
Ed offers, "Scooter Libby should be shot as a traitor, not jialed as a liar.His boss, ElDuce, should be hung from a lamp post"

The opposition, during their election campaigns, made acusations that would have supported such actions. But, in truth, they were just making it up to get dummies to vote for them. Now, they are in office, thanks to you and yours. In the light of day, they have nothing other than acusations and no proof. So, Pelosi and Company have moved on, knowing that their lies got them in office. That is all they wanted. Nice work!

Mac Moore
What grade in school did you complete?

a Bulls**t legal trap is still a trap
1. Plame was not covert as the law was written , so no law was broken by her "outing" (or else Armitage would have eventually been indicted.) The President agreeing that a law had been broken (before the facts were known) and saying that the leaker would be prosecuted was just very clumsy posturing, and completely irrelevant to the question of law. The fact that Bush gave an opinion at all does not speak well of his judgment, especially in hindsight.

2. Once it was clear no law had been broken, Fitzgerald should have closed the investigation, as anyone with an ounce of ethics would have. However, ethics don't apply to Democrat hacks, so he didn't.

3. Irony is also apparently unknown to Democrats, who whine loudly about the supposed damage to Nation Security when a CIA desk driver's name is revealed (by what they assume will prove to be one of those evil Republicans), but have no problem with the NY Times screwing up an actual real-world operation like financial record data-mining (nor with Plame's outing when they find out the source was fellow-leftist Armitage.)

4. Once a prosecutor is on the move, he's an officer of the court, even if he is a soulless amoral lackey of the left. Until he can be legitimately shut down, one cannot lie to him; to do so is perjury, and legally prosecutable as such.

5. Right or wrong, it's up to the discretion of the prosecutor whether his personal standard for perjury is an outright intentional lie about something really important that's crucially relevant to a case, or just any innocent misstatement that might be made. It's not fair, but it's the rule of the game.

6. Libby either misspoke or he lied outright, but Fitz was able to get a bunch of idiots (and a judge of questionable partiality)to believe his version. Again, not fair, but the way the game is played.

7. The whole case may have been a bulls**t Democrat political trap (in which I'm sure they obviously were hoping for bigger game) but Scooter stepped into it. The administration should have found a reason to shut it down before anyone was sucked in, but once it happened, it was too late. If a hunter shoots a deer, it doesn't matter to the deer whether it was in season or not; all it knows is it's been shot.

8. Even so, if the President had any honor and nerve, he would explain it to the American people, pardon Libby immediately, and take the lumps for it.

9. If Libby has to wait for that, he's going to sit in jail until the end of 2008.


A pardon is a "must"
before this man serves one day! He unfortunately forgot to "forget" - think of the difference in his testimony and HRC's.

In no way should Scooter Libby serve one day until Sandy Berger serves for his security crime - and that is not going to happen.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.