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Friday, March 23, 2007
Chuck Colson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Saw This One Coming
by Chuck Colson
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Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



Sometimes I know how Ian Malcolm, the mathematician in Jurassic Park, felt. His warnings about the folly of the park’s creators were vindicated by the sight of a T-Rex eating an SUV. Then, all Malcolm could say was "I hate being right all the time."

Well, I’m not right all of the time. I do know what it’s like, however, to hate being right.

The BBC recently ran a story about a German couple named Patrick and Susan. The couple has been living together unmarried for the past six years and has four children. In a continent full of unmarried couples with children, this particular pair stands out—because they are brother and sister.

As a young child, Patrick was given up for adoption. He finally met his mother and the rest of his biological family, including Susan, seven years ago. After their mother died, the two became, in the BBC’s words, "lovers."

When German authorities learned about the "relationship," they placed three of their children—two of whom have disabilities—in foster care and charged Patrick with incest. Patrick has already served two years and faces more jail time.

While this story is certainly sordid, unfortunately, it’s not unique. What makes it noteworthy is that the couple is challenging German laws against incest in Germany’s Federal Constitutional Court.

As the couple’s lawyer, Endrik Wilhelm, told the BBC, "this law is out of date, and it breaches the couple’s civil rights." According to the lawyer, the "couple [is] not harming anyone," and the ban "is discrimination."

To those like Juergen Kunze, a geneticist at Berlin’s Charite Hospital, who cite the genetic risks to the offspring of incest, Wilhelm replies: "Why are disabled parents" or "people with hereditary diseases [and] women over 40" allowed to have children?

Anyone who claims to be surprised by this case has not been paying attention to American law. In Lawrence v. Texas, the Supreme Court found that "consenting" adults had a right to privacy when it comes to sexual relations—any kind of sexual relations. As Justice Scalia pointed out in his stinging dissent, the logic employed by the majority of the court could be applied to laws against "bigamy, same-sex marriage [and] adult incest."

If you deny that there’s a "substantial government interest in protecting order and morality," as courts increasingly are doing, where do you draw the line? Certainly not at same-sex "marriage," as we have seen. The fact is that, as Dr. Kunze puts it, laws like these "based on long traditions in Western societies" have not been stopping courts lately.

The ugly truth is that, absent a "substantial government interest in protecting order and morality," the incestuous couple has the better argument. In a culture where personal autonomy trumps long-established moral traditions, our revulsion does look like the kind of prejudice that Lawrence rejected as the basis for laws.

Like I said, none of this should come as a surprise. Instead, it ought to serve as a warning of where the law is headed. Let’s pray that this time we don’t need a rampaging T-Rex to confirm our worst fears.

Today’s BreakPoint offer:"Marriage in America: BreakPoint Goes to the Heart of the Marriage Debate" (CD).

For further reading and information:

Roberto Rivera, "The Ballad of Patrick and Susan," The Point, 8 March 2007.

Tristana Moore, "Couple Stand by Forbidden Love," BBC News, 7 March 2007.

BreakPoint Commentary No. 050817, "Taking the Plunge: A Case of Incest."

BreakPoint Commentary No. 060106, "Further Down the Slope: Massachusetts Senate Bill 938."

Robert George, "Rick Santorum is Right," National Review Online, 27 May 2003.

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About The Author
Chuck Colson was the Chief Counsel for Richard Nixon and served time in prison for Watergate-related charges. In 1976, Colson founded Prison Fellowship Ministries, which, in collaboration with churches of all confessions and denominations, has become the world's largest outreach to prisoners, ex-prisoners, crime victims, and their families.
 
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.
Incest....
Just another example of why we don't want to be more like Europe....

Been to West Virgina Lately?

Incest is best left in comics, but I "dated" my first cousin one night. It was just like any other girl I dated. She did however turn up with an honest to god Bull Dyke flanel shirt and all next Thanksgiving.

I think these 2 should be giving a break.

Talk about an "out there" case
Has anyone else notice how bizarre this situation really is? These two people may be genetically related, but they didn't meet each other until they were adults. For me, that fact takes all of the "ick" factor of this particular situation. The "ick" fator of incest is the thought of being intimate with your own brothers or sisters--with whom you were forced to share a house for YEARS during the most obnoxious phases of life (infancy, childhood, and adolesence). This situation is essentially two adult strangers meet and fall in love--and incidently are related. This doesn't mean that the law should be changed, they knew they were siblings when they began their relationship and society has a right to set such legal boundaries. But somehow I don't think that people would be lining up to marry their siblings even if the law did change, it's just to icky.

Individual Rights vs. Subjective Morals
Chuck Colson's Townhall article states -

"In a culture where personal autonomy trumps long-established moral traditions, our revulsion does look like the kind of prejudice that Lawrence rejected as the basis for laws."

IOW, he's complaining that one's personal freedom trumps the subjective religious opinions of others. What's wrong with that? Would you want your 1st Amendment rights trumped Sharia law? 1 Cor 10:29 has Paul rhetorically asking why HIS freedom should be limited by the religious opinions of others. He obviously rejected that premise.

In addition to that, Latter-day (Mormon) scripture agrees condemning those who let "their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others" (D&C 134:4).

We must always preach against sin, but when we seek to use force to "infringe upon the rights and liberties of others", we emulate Satan's plan of force and compulsion.

Those wishing to impose their own version of Sharia law by the sword need to repent of this grave sin.

Chris Bolton

Having said all of that
Since I am an Orthodox Christian, I believe in an experiential direct contact with God through the very experience of the Worship and Liturgics of the Traditional Church. I cannot compete with the Scholastic approach of a Western christian. Yet, I maintain that the 'Canon' of Scripture was determined by the Orthodox Church at a Council and that the decisison of which books are 'canonical' did indeed come from the Church, and not the other way around.
The Old Testament of course was put together by the Jewish faith, and Natural seed of Abraham, so I do not suggest that the Orthodox Church is directly responsible for the writings, but being inspired by God, the Holy Spirit, they were able to discern the real books from pseudo apocryphal sorts.
If you are not Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox, what body of believers do you submit to?
We all need to participate in a larger body of believers.
Please consider the Orthodox!
Standing room only.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/orthodoxy.aspx

Muscat- Orthodoxy/Catholicism/Protestant


Hi Muscat,

I do not have an issue with the content of the Apostle’s Creed, but with the concept of a “creed” itself. There is no command, authoritative example, or necessary inference in the Bible that the Apostle’s Creed was either necessary or approved of. If it was not necessary for the Disciples of Christ in the 1st century in order to be saved, it is not necessary for us today.

From a practical standpoint, allowing for a non-Biblical creed, even if the content of that creed is consistent with the Bible, opens the door (or begins the “slippery slope”) to allowing for other creeds. This is particularly true in light of my growing understanding of the role “tradition” plays in the Catholic (and if I understand correctly, also the Orthodox) church.

If a Creed says less than God’s Word in the Bible, is it sufficient as far as God is concerned? If a Creed says more than God’s Word in the Bible, does it not represent an unauthorized addition to God’s Word by man? If a Creed says the same thing as God’s Word in the Bible, what is the point, since we already have the Bible?

While the content of the Apostle’s Creed itself may not represent a problem as far as contradiction of Bible doctrine is concerned, the recognition and incorporation of non-Biblical creeds can only lead to negative consequences.


I recognize that “Catholic” means universal. With regard to Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, I would make a similar argument as I did in my first post. In theory, it is quite possible that both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox are both wrong, but it is impossible that both can be right. At least one of them is wrong. I believe both are wrong, but neither the Roman Catholic nor the Eastern Orthodox can logically believe that both are right.


I do not speak for Protestantism, as I am not a member of a Protestant denominational church. I recognize the reasons that brought about the attempted “Reformation”, and if it had not been Luther, it would have been someone else. Many Roman Catholics seem to prefer to blame Luther, rather than examining the corruption that made actions like Luther’s necessary and inevitable. Someone had to do something, and someone did.

That doesn’t mean Luther got everything right, he certainly did not, but he was right to challenge the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church. The failure of the “Reformers” was in that they attempted to “Reform” at all, when reformation was impossible. What was necessary was a “Restoration”, a wholesale return to the Word of God as contained in the Bible. The Roman Catholic Church was well beyond the point of making minor “reforms” to bring itself into line with God’s Word.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Muscat writes: “Protestantism has continued to break up into rival sects, and though they may have had valid quarrels with the 16th Century Roman Church, I do not believe that they have found a viable alternative to Catholic Christianity.”

We are agreed that Protestantism has continued to break up into many different denominations. I can find no scriptural Authority for denominationalism within the Lord’s church. Furthermore, every denominational church that I am aware of has some practices or doctrines that are traced back to men (often the founders of their denomination) which cannot be reconciled and harmonized with Bible scripture.

Neither can I see that the Lord does not “remove the candlestick” from any church that departs from His Word and will not repent (cf. Revelation chapters 2 and 3). This would certainly include the Roman Catholic Church just as it would any other church, despite the somewhat amusing efforts of the Roman Catholic Church to declare that apostasy was not applicable to themselves in 400 AD (the horses were well out of the barn by then).

As I will argue below, there is one and only one “viable alternative” that has the possibility to unite all of those who claim to follow Christ, and to do so in the only way that reconciles and harmonizes with His Word; a return to the Word of God, just as it is written. There is such a thing as New Testament or “Restoration” type churches. They are non-denominational. Some are more conservative than others in their adherence to God’s Word, and the only one I would consider worshipping with is a church of Christ that adheres strictly to God’s Word. Such a church accepts no man-made creeds or doctrines or commandments, which only lead to division among Christians. Their sole source of Authority is the inerrant and inspired Word of God. Not quasi or pseudo-sola scriptura as engaged in by some of the denominational Protestant churches, but genuine sola scriptura.

The Word of God. As it is written. Nothing more. Nothing less.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Muscat writes: “We need not only the Word of God, but also the Church which gave us the Canon of Scripture.”

According to whom (or Whom)? According to the Word of God, God’s Word is sufficient to equip a man to all good works. If you would like, we can engage in an exploration of all the scriptures which demonstrate that God’s Word is sufficient and complete. I have not had extensive discussions with a member of the Eastern Orthodox church, but if your reasoning is anything like that of Roman Catholics, I do not expect that such an exploration will prove fruitful. If the Eastern Orthodox church also relies on unscriptural extra-Biblical writing as Authoritative, then there is no end to where that ball of yarn unravels.

The “church” did not give anyone the “Canon of Scripture”. I am familiar with that assertion, and I am familiar with many of the hundreds (thousands?) of pages of dogma and doctrine that Catholics are able to post to support their assertions, but such an assertion arrogantly assumes that God needs the church, and without the church God could not accomplish His Will.

All of the books that comprise the Bible were written and widely circulated before the end of the 1st century. They were not buried in someone’s basement, waiting for a few hundred years to be brought out, dusted off, and given official “approval” by a group of men in the Roman Catholic Church. If such was the case, Paul’s letters to Corinth (for example) would have been of no use; the people he addressed them to would all be dead and gone by the time the “Church” approved them as part of the “Canon”.

The same applies to the seven churches of Asia in Revelation. If Revelation was not authoritative or “given” to “us” until the “church” decided it was authoritative several hundred years later, of what possible benefit could it have been to the church of Christ at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea?

I recognize that our conversation, if continued, will soon get to the issue of sola scriptura. I also realize that some of the common or traditional arguments between Catholics and Protestants don’t go anywhere because, to the best of my knowledge, no Protestant denomination truly practices sola scriptura, and therefore a persistent and knowledgeable Catholic can trap a Protestant into having to admit that fact.

The Protestant can similarly trap a Catholic into admitting that many of their practices are unsupportable with Bible scripture. Both sides recognize the other’s error, and eventually retreat to their own corners, having resolved nothing.

There is a way out of this trap. True sola scriptura. It can hardly be disputed that sola scriptura, if diligently adhered to and practiced, would not go a very long way toward resolving the differences, both between Catholics and Orthodox, between Catholics and Protestants, and between all of the various Protestant denominations themselves.

If we all adhered to the same standard, the written Word of God as contained in the Bible, and took all of the many unscriptural doctrines and commandments of men and threw them out the window, we would at least have a chance at the unity Christ and the Apostles prayed for.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Muscat writes: “God did not send the Bible down to earth in a vacuum.”

I agree, He did not send the Bible to earth in a vacuum; He revealed His will to mankind over a period of roughly 1,600 years through roughly 40 different writers. As far as the New Testament is concerned, He revealed “all truth” via the Holy Spirit to those men who wrote it down. The books of the Bible were recognized as Authoritative by Christians long before the Roman Catholic Church gave it their official stamp of approval hundreds of years later.

The Catholic Church seems to pride itself on extensive documentation and attention to detail. Let them produce the minutes of the meetings where the debates were held about which books should be included and which should not. For something of such grave importance, the volume of documentation must be overwhelming. Imagine if it fell to you to determine which books were divinely inspired by God and ought to be included in the “Canon” for all-time; would you not meticulously record even the most minor points of discussion for posterity?

The Catholic Church often (mis)represents that it gave the world the New Testament. I often ask them to prove it. It was God Who gave the world His New Testament. God has the power to accomplish His will; His Word will not pass away even when the heavens and the earth do pass away. He is not dependent on the Catholic Church, or any other church.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Muscat writes: “But thank you for the intelligent and reasoned reply.”

You are welcome, and I also thank you for the same!



'Catholic' and Scott's commentary
I am not a Roman Catholic, but I do believe in the Apostle's Creed. The word 'Catholic' means universal. Eastern Orthodoxy holds a different view of Catholicity, and yet I would not make too strong a distinction between Orthodoxy and

Traditional Catholicism.
We do not see the need for a 'Pope' to secure the work of God the Holy Spirit in His Church, the mystical body of Christ on earth.
Protestantism has continued to break up into rival sects, and though they may have had valid quarrels with the 16th Century Roman Church, I do not believe that they have found a viable alternative to Catholic Christianity.
We need not only the Word of God, but also the
Church which gave us the Canon of Scripture.
God did not send the Bible down to earth in a vacuum.
But thank you for the intelligent and reasoned reply.

http://www.orthodox.net/

Muscat / I am obligated to contest...


I have little doubt that we are in much agreement on the subject matter of Mr. Colson’s article, and also probably about our views on morality in general.

It is not my desire to derail this discussion or to start a big debate about Roman Catholicism. However, when a straight-out declaration is made equating the Roman Catholic Church with the Word of God contained in the Bible, I am obligated to contest such a declaration.

You have made your statement, and as of this posting, I have now made mine. I am sure everyone has their own views on this subject, and I am content to leave it at that.

We can let the issue “rest in peace”, at least for the time-being, or we can discuss the issue further.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Muscat writes: “God has spoken to all mankind and has left us two deposits to trust
The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
The Holy Bible”

First, the order is wrong. The inspired Word of God is above anything men can do or say. Second, there should not even be an “order”, because God left us only ONE “deposit” to trust, not two.

The “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” was not left to us by God; that was left to “us” by men, and it became a church of men once they departed from God’s Word and, instead of recognizing their error and repenting, they went the opposite direction, following after the commandments, traditions and wisdom of men.

God is not dependent on the Roman Catholic Church or any other church. His church is His kingdom, it is a spiritual kingdom, and He adds those people to it who obey His Word. The Roman Catholic Church wandered away from His Word a long, long, long time ago.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Muscat writes: “For the secularist, there is no other place to look but to one's subjective opinion at the moment, realizing that we are anything but sober and rational creatures, 'At least a Christian comes to confess as much'.”

In this we are in much agreement, which is why it is so frustrating to talk with Roman Catholics who clearly understand the problem (“subjective opinion at the moment” as opposed to the objective Word of God), yet don’t seem to recognize that every single departure by the Roman Catholic Church from the Word of God is exactly that: a “subjective opinion at the moment” by whomever the powers might be in the Roman Catholic Church at any given point in time. They have truly made it up as they went along through history, yet if I understand correctly, they claim that their doctrines are “of God”, even when those doctrines contradict His Word.

God’s Word is truth, truth doesn’t contradict itself, but the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church often and regularly contradict God’s Word. That is an irresolvable conflict, without admitting error and repenting, returning to the Word of God as the only source of Authority. The Roman Catholic Church cannot do this, because in order to accomplish such a thing, it would for all practical purposes have to abolish itself.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Muscat writes: “Hence, you end up with the capricious and changeable opinions of a fallen and sinful humanity- attempting to take God's place and define right and wrong according to our flawed and clouded judgement.”

This is exactly what the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church has done, for nearly two thousand years. Error begets error. Man is fallible of course, and he makes mistakes; that is an unavoidable reality. This was true of the churches of Christ in the 1st century, and it is still true today.

The greater error of the church of Christ at Rome which ultimately transformed into the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” (by which I assume you are referring to the Roman Catholic Church?) was to take an error and build upon it, instead of recognizing the error and repenting of it.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Muscat writes: “The fool hath said in his heart, "there is no God".”

On that statement we are again in agreement.

Where we are in disagreement is, essentially, that the Roman Catholic Church and the Word of God as contained in the Bible are equal in Authority. Since they are often in conflict, it is theoretically possible that they could both be wrong, but it is NOT possible that they could both be right.

That means one of them is wrong, either the Word of God contained in the Bible, or the Roman Catholic Church. Those who attempt to logically reconcile the differences between the Word of God and the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church cannot do so.

They try mightily, and I have learned first-hand that they can post thousands of pages of Roman Catholic doctrine and dogma, but all of the man-authored writing (i.e., opinion) in the world plus the insistence that they are “right” does not trump the truth of God’s Word.

The Word of God says that the Words contained within the books which comprise the Bible are inspired by God. There is a great deal of evidence to support the claims made in the Bible. It says that it is “all truth”, that God’s Word “is truth”, and we are warned repeatedly not to follow after the wisdom, traditions or commandments of men.

By contrast, the Roman Catholic Church is an organization run by men who tell us that their teachings are equal in Authority to the written Word of God, and when their doctrines contradict the written Word of God, they ask us to follow after their wisdom, commandments and traditions, and not the Word of God.

We are all free moral agents. Many choose to follow the doctrines of the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church, teachings that are in conflict with the Word of God as contained in the Bible.

When the words of men conflict with the Word of God, we have a choice to make. We can follow men, or we can follow God, but we cannot follow both when they are in contradiction to one another.



Curious
Can I assume that the incestuous sister was not imprisoned? If not, why not? Assuming she has not been jailed, just one more example of treating women like children.

re: Packrat, Muscat
quote: "The point was the validity of laws prohibiting certain self-destructive behavior.
Procreation between close relatives, be they cousins or siblings, can magnify the probability of birth defects.
This is not legislating morality, it is looking out for the common good."
_______________________________

So in "looking out for the common good", do you believe the government should start deciding who can and can't reproduce based on statistical probability of birth defects? Because that seems to be where your argument goes if carried to its logical conclusion.

Again, I would say that I fear an overly intrusive government more than an epidemic of incest.

________________________________
quote: "God has spoken to all mankind and has left us two deposits to trust
The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
The Holy Bible"
________________________________

Even assuming your statement is correct (while a Christian, I am not Catholic and don't consider "the church" to be infallible), neither the church nor the Bible are sources of government.

Gene Touchet / For your consideration…



Gene Touchet writes: “This column is based on some significant conditions. The German case is not yet decided.”

Have you considered how your position will be affected if the German case is decided in favor of the brother and sister involved in incest?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Gene Touchet writes: “That Lawrence has anything to do with incest or bigamy is a stretch.”

Is closing the barn doors after the horses have all escaped a sound strategy? Ever try putting the toothpaste back in the tube? Ever tried to un-ring a bell? Presumably you are familiar with the cocept of a “slippery slope”?

As Nam65-66 mentioned above, you might consider giving the column “Rick Santorum is Right” a quick read. Here is the link again: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-george052703.asp



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Gene Touchet writes: “To say that "The left is succeeding in destroying morals and therefore, civilization" while defending an administration who has openly brought torture into interrogation is indicative of blinkered, denial thinking.”

What has the one to do with the other, besides the unsubstantiated claim of hypocrisy in defense of moral equivocation and relativism? By your way of thinking, even if the administration’s policies are wrong, does that justify you being wrong too? Do two wrongs make a right? Should the standard be either perfection according to your way of thinking, otherwise every-man-for-himself anarchy is justified?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Gene Touchet writes: “That Colson still manages to get any space is the real wonder, not to mention the danger.”

Please explain, if you can: why should anyone consider your preceding statement anything other than a gratuitous cheap shot?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Gene Touchet writes: “How easily some people are persuaded that some wolves can grow wool!”

One might also observe how easily others seem to pull that same wool down over their own eyes…




Morals in a vacuum
Secular Society seeking for 'norms' is absurd.
You may as well have roads without signs and stop lights as to hope that a values neutral secular culture can offer any moral guidance, since morality is by nature a set of definitions of right behavior and becomes at once a judgement and discrimination against some behaviours.
God has spoken to all mankind and has left us two deposits to trust
The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
The Holy Bible

For the secularist, there is no other place to look but to one's subjective opinion at the moment, realizing that we are anything but sober and rational creatures, 'At least a Christian comes to confess as much'.
Hence, you end up with the capricious and changeable opinions of a fallen and sinful humanity- attempting to take God's place and define right and wrong according to our flawed and clouded judgement.

The fool hath said in his heart, "there is no God".


Well . . .
DISCLAIMER: This is *not* to be construed as *supporting* incest.


A legitimate question *is* posed, however. *IF* a justification for prohibiting (consensual, adult) incest is the risk of birth defects in offspring, why does that *same* justification *NOT* apply for barring unrelated individuals at higher risk for bearing offspring with birth defects (genetic or otherwise) from procreating?

If the argument is that it is in society's interest in keeping related couples from procreating (to prevent or reduce the risk of birth defects) then the society has the *EXACT SAME* interest in keeping unrelated couples with high risk factors from procreating as well.

Furthermore, *IF* society's interest is to ensure the perpetuation of a healthy (re: birth-defect free) populace *THEN* society has the *SAME* interest (and authority) to euthanize children that happen to be born with birth defects (or aborting "defective" children before they are born).

Eugenics, anyone?


/Just playing Devil's Advocate here, following a rationale to it's logical conclusion.

Just Wondering...
Do Patrick and Susan sit on the porch and play
dueling banjo's ? And those kids of thiers, do they condider Patrick to be thier "Uncle Dad" ? Do they consider Susan to be thier "Auntie Mommy"?... One thing is certain - There ain't no branches on that family tree !!

Interesting point
If it's about the latent disabilities inherent in incestuous relationships, why are those people carrying genetic markers specific for disabilities and/or life threatening diseases, about whom the doctors already know, not forbidden to procreate? EVERYBODYSGOTTARIGHTTABREED! Isn't that the mantra of the day?

So if you aren't going to stop a person with a virtual lock on Tay-Sachs, Huntington's Chorea, or certain disabling physical deformities from breeding, you can't stop brothers from breeding with sisters either. Because it's not about the children. IT'S ABOUT HAVING IT YOUR WAY!

One Word
GROSS!

How about getting on subject.
The President, the Congress, the Senate now get set to sell out America.

President Bush's support of the "Am-nasty", and the Congress getting into the "coyote" buss. "$2,000 each for safe passage is a real bad thing, aka, "evil money cult work", its bad bad bad.

try courage TownHall, your fingers will not fall off if you stand up for America

Wolves don't need to grow wool ...
... if they kill the sheep that produce it.

John Galt et al
The point was the validity of laws prohibiting certain self-destructive behavior.
Procreation between close relatives, be they cousins or siblings, can magnify the probability of birth defects.
This is not legislating morality, it is looking out for the common good.

re: Gene Touchet
Good post.

As far as "destroying morals", how is "the left" or anyone else capable of doing that? It is not the job of the government to promote morals or values of ANY kind -- whether conservative, "progressive", "Judeo-Christian", liberal, or anything else. The purpose of government is to protect individual liberty. If morals are being "destroy[ed]", then it is the fault of society in general, not the government.

Ultimately, as distasteful as this case seems, extreme cases tend to encourage over-legislating. I am much more worried about the prospect of government over-intrusion than I am of rampant incest.

Coming next

Coming next "legal threesomes" and "legal polygamy" coming to the ACLU nearest you.

As I remember they spiced frog DNA into the missing dinosaur DNA and got the unintended consequences. There one good scene in one of the Jurassic Park, the T Rex eating the stereotypical scumbag lawyer.

What slippery slope?
Where is LD to argue persuasively for incest as natural and for all those prudish christians to get over it! Same-sex marraige could in no way lead to legalized bigamy or incest could it?

The left is succeeding in destroying morals and therefore, civilization. That has been their goal all along, to destroy humanity. They use environmentalism, or civil rights as the red herring that dupes useful idiots into supporting their "cause", while in actuality they have nothing but utter contempt for their supporters and everyone else on the planet. I only wish they would start their destruction of humanity with themselves first.

Unintentional Incest
Incest is disgusting. Knowingly engaging in it is immoral. I certainly hope Germany does not change its laws.

However, this topic causes me to think there must be a great deal of unintentional incest going on. Imagine all these children born from donor sperm, and from women who have relations with random men producing children who have know idea who their father is.

While we are a mobile society, many people stay near where they were born. It seems a high likelihood that in some communities we have high incidents of unintentional incest. Imagine off to your local college or high school where you engage in hook-ups. It is incest to have relations when you share the same father.

I don't know, if I was a young person, I think I'd want a DNA test rather than a blood test before marriage. Maybe states should require DNA test instead of blood test.

Incest....
Just another example of why we don't want to be more like Europe....

yuck
Incest is just wrong, ie the birth defects.

Click on...
...the Robert George article above in the NRO entitled "Rick Santorum is right".It is the best argument I have seen in opposing Laurence vs Texas.

Count me
as not surprised.
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