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Wednesday, December 27, 2006
Ann Coulter :: Townhall.com Columnist
Kwanzaa: Holiday from the FBI
by Ann Coulter
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President Bush's Kwanzaa message this year skipped the patently absurd claim of years past that: "African-Americans and people around the world reflect on African heritage during Kwanzaa." Instead, he simply said: "I send greetings to those observing Kwanzaa."

More African-Americans spent this season reflecting on the birth of Christ than some phony non-Christian holiday invented a few decades ago by an FBI stooge. Kwanzaa is a holiday for white liberals, not blacks.

It is a fact that Kwanzaa was invented in 1966 by a black radical FBI pawn, Ron Karenga, aka Dr. Maulana Karenga. Karenga was a founder of United Slaves, a violent nationalist rival to the Black Panthers and a dupe of the FBI.

In what was probably a foolish gamble, during the madness of the '60s the FBI encouraged the most extreme black nationalist organizations in order to discredit and split the left. The more preposterous the organization, the better. Karenga's United Slaves was perfect. In the annals of the American '60s, Karenga was the Father Gapon, stooge of the czarist police.

Despite modern perceptions that blend all the black activists of the '60s, the Black Panthers did not hate whites. They did not seek armed revolution. Those were the precepts of Karenga's United Slaves. United Slaves were proto-fascists, walking around in dashikis, gunning down Black Panthers and adopting invented "African" names. (That was a big help to the black community: How many boys named "Jamal" currently sit on death row?)

Whether Karenga was a willing dupe, or just a dupe, remains unclear. Curiously, in a 1995 interview with Ethnic NewsWatch, Karenga matter-of-factly explained that the forces out to get O.J. Simpson for the "framed" murder of two whites included "the FBI, the CIA, the State Department, Interpol, the Chicago Police Department" and so on. Karenga should know about FBI infiltration. (He further noted that the evidence against O.J. "was not strong enough to prohibit or eliminate unreasonable doubt" -- an interesting standard of proof.)

In the category of the-gentleman-doth-protest-too-much, back in the '70s, Karenga was quick to criticize rumors that black radicals were government-supported. When Nigerian newspapers claimed that some American black radicals were CIA operatives, Karenga publicly denounced the idea, saying, "Africans must stop generalizing about the loyalties and motives of Afro-Americans, including the widespread suspicion of black Americans being CIA agents."

Now we know that the FBI fueled the bloody rivalry between the Panthers and United Slaves. In one barbarous outburst, Karenga's United Slaves shot to death Black Panthers Al "Bunchy" Carter and Deputy Minister John Huggins on the UCLA campus. Karenga himself served time, a useful stepping-stone for his current position as a black studies professor at California State University at Long Beach.

Kwanzaa itself is a lunatic blend of schmaltzy '60s rhetoric, black racism and Marxism. Indeed, the seven "principles" of Kwanzaa praise collectivism in every possible arena of life -- economics, work, personality, even litter removal. ("Kuumba: Everyone should strive to improve the community and make it more beautiful.") It takes a village to raise a police snitch.

When Karenga was asked to distinguish Kawaida, the philosophy underlying Kwanzaa, from "classical Marxism," he essentially explained that under Kawaida, we also hate whites. While taking the "best of early Chinese and Cuban socialism" -- which one assumes would exclude the forced abortions, imprisonment for homosexuals and forced labor -- Kawaida practitioners believe one's racial identity "determines life conditions, life chances and self-understanding." There's an inclusive philosophy for you.

(Sing to "Jingle Bells")

Kwanzaa bells, dashikis sell

Whitey has to pay;

Burning, shooting, oh what fun

On this made-up holiday!

Coincidentally, the seven principles of Kwanzaa are the very same seven principles of the Symbionese Liberation Army, another charming invention of the Least-Great Generation. In 1974, Patricia Hearst, kidnap victim-cum-SLA revolutionary, posed next to the banner of her alleged captors, a seven-headed cobra. Each snake head stood for one of the SLA's revolutionary principles: Umoja, Kujichagulia, Ujima, Ujamaa, Nia, Kuumba and Imani -- the same seven "principles" of Kwanzaa.

With his Kwanzaa greetings, President Bush is saluting the intellectual sibling of the Symbionese Liberation Army, killer of housewives and police. He is saluting the founder of United Slaves, who were such lunatics that they shot Panthers for not being sufficiently insane -- all with the FBI as their covert ally.

It's as if David Duke invented a holiday called "Anglika," and the president of the United States issued a presidential proclamation honoring the synthetic holiday. People might well take notice if that happened.

Kwanzaa was the result of a '60s psychosis grafted onto the black community. Liberals have become so mesmerized by multicultural nonsense that they have forgotten the real history of Kwanzaa and Karenga's United Slaves -- the violence, the Marxism, the insanity. Most absurdly, for leftists anyway, is that they have forgotten the FBI's tacit encouragement of this murderous black nationalist cult founded by the father of Kwanzaa.

Now the "holiday" concocted by an FBI dupe is honored in a presidential proclamation and public schools across the nation. The only principle Kwanzaa promotes is liberals' unbounded capacity to respect any faith but Christianity.

A movement that started approximately 2,000 years before Kwanzaa leaps well beyond collectivism and litter removal to proclaim that we are all equal before God. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). It was practitioners of that faith who were at the forefront of the abolitionist and civil rights movements. But that's all been washed down the memory hole, along with the true origins of Kwanzaa.

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About The Author
Ann Coulter is a columnist and author of Guilty: Liberal Victims and Their Assault On America.
 
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pitbull:
Can Do!

pitbull:

I'm with you on this one. I was a CB reservist during Desert Storm - never activated, RNMCB27, out of Westover ARB. Zippiskootch didn't read like anyone I've ever known, that is, who has actually served. For my part, I have nothing but respect for those who have. Besides, Man with a Big Iron hasn't written anything to my knowledge (certainly not in this thread) that invited the invectives Zipiskootch belched. He/she sounded more like a disgruntled liberal hate-monger peacenik than a former active duty military person with liberal leanings.

60's Era
Yeah the womens movement crap of the 60s.
was and still is a blight on America.
Now we got women commenting on politics, running for office, and creating socialism left and right in America.
Even the men in politics are more femine nowadays.

Do you have a point?
Zippi,
Other than venting hate-filled invectives, do you have a point to make? I think that it's sad that you regret your military service. I served to protect our liberty and the lives of my fellow citizens, despite their political affiliation. As long as they were not enemies of the constitution, they were worth my service. Mr. Big Iron and I do not see eye-to-eye on the conduct of the war. I suspect that I am more of a libertarian with some conservative leanings. I respect his knowledgeable opinions and acknowledge his service as I do yours. Why don't you offer an opinion on the topic? I would like to hear from a genuine, liberal, former military type. I don't personally know any self-acknowledged, liberal, ex-military folks, even among Vietnam era draftees. You've got to admit that the military is not a profession to which a liberal naturally gravitates. Since you claim to have been in for ten years, you spent more than one enlistment (officer?).

dprofessor
One group that I'm sure will embrace the "shmok" as you call it, although I am familiar with the word as "shmuck" is the gay community. Of course the Yiddish word is spelled in the yiddish alphabet: shin, mem, aleph(?), khaf(?) and refers to the male member but nothing could be more fitting for this holiday. Since I'm on the subject of languages have recently read somewhere that linguists believe that the only reason that there are so many different languages is that groups of people intentionally adopt differences in a language from a mother tongue for the sole purpose of being able to identify who is an "other" and who is "brother". Isn't it interesting that a black language-Ebonics- has evolved and isn't it also interesting that a separate holiday was created. Both are indicative of a dilike of and a desire to separate themselves from "whitey". In other words it is a racist holiday. Doesn't that make ole G.W. seem like a total fool for sending out such a message? Of course, that is just one of a string of things he has said that make him seem like a total fool. Here's another " guest worker".

Man with the Big Iron
I would not serve with you!

So let me get this right, I served in the military for 10 years to protect YOU! Man did I get screwed because reading the posts on this site shows me…it was NOT worth it. It’s the chickenhawks like “Man with the Big Iron” who helped sell this country down the river, it is a crying shame.

Face it; there are quite a few of us gun toting, meat eating, ex-military, liberals. None of us want stupid people getting hurt with firearms, especially the lower forms of intelligent life…like our little friend “Man with the BIG iron head”.

I thought it was a marketing scam!
All this time I thought Kwanzaa was invented by Hallmark!

Repetitious Kwanza reminder
For those who've criticized Ann for 'phoning one in' for the holidays, I'd like to remind you that many good columns are repeated because (1) they are exceptional, and (2) they fit circumstances that continually re-arise. This is especially true during the holiday season where even the WSJ repeats a perennially favorite and appropriate column.

Considering how repetitious the left is in driving home their lies, it hardly seems a criticism to repeat the truth since it is apparently so hard to learn.

There's nothing new about one outfit trying to hijack another's holiday, but we hardly need the effort legitimized by a president too ignorant to know, or want to know, the facts.

Is there anything Bush won't do to kiss leftist backside?

LD
I'll bet Loyal Democrat is a superb poker player.

johnny
Sorry dimwit, didn't know I was fuggin writing a term paper.

I guess John Carry was rite abot us'n folks in the millitery.

Who is
WWJD hurting? Why are so many of you attacking this poster, just because her/his views aren't the same as yours?

Do you allow anyone to have different opinions than your own?

Why Would Jesus Diet???

Jesus and His disciples, amongst other things, were accused of gluttony. This can easily be verified.

Insofar as why He came? I have to get on the road, so I am going to make this short. When Jesus first started His public ministry He entered the synagogue (as was His custom, on the Sabbath day) and read from the book of Isaiah, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.”

In a nutshell, He came to heal the brokenhearted, and to set the captives free. And, “He whom the Son sets free is free indeed.”

Happy New Year!

Harmony, bobbit, Cbreeze
Harmony said: "What you put forth as FACT is a LEGEND. How much of what you say is, indeed, fact or legend?"

How much of what's in the Bible is fact or legend? Do you think Jonah really survived for more then one minute inside a whales tummy? - it aint necesarily so.

There is debate among biblical historians on Jesus' true birth day but there is wide consensus he was not born on Dec. 25, rather the date was chosen to compete with the winter solstice as focus-group testing showed pagans would be more willing to convert to Christianity as long as they could still celebrate the big holidays.

I'm glad you enjoyed the "MAGIC" of a lighted tree in your house, but you must know enough about child psychology to know that if your parents set up an Easter Island head in your living room, showered you with presents every year while you had a week off school, you'd feel the same way about that big rock head you do about your tree. The "magic" is in your fondness for those memories and your family, perhaps even youth itself. The sight and smell of the tree triggers those memories, which is simple psychological association. You might think it's ridiculous to decorate small wooden pyramids with fruit, or to set up an artificial spider web but those are Christmas tradtitions in other countries and ours is just as arbitrary as any other ritual.

I know there is a Christmas tree industry, there are farms all over growing trees to cut them down so people can keep them for a few weeks and then discard them. But 3 in 10 buy from "cut your own" garden lots and many still illegally purloin trees from remote areas. I just wonder how bad our timber shortage and air quality will get before we as a society start letting these trees grow. Overdevelopment and rampant urban sprawl has reduced many benefits of natural brush, as have a record number of forest fires attributed to the strange, coincidental record high temperatures in the last few years. While bobbit points out we have more trees today then 50 years ago, he misses the point that these newly planted trees, saplings and seedlings are less and less interspersed with people. That means they filter our air and water less, provide less natural cooling and sustain less wildlife in the most inhabited areas, predictably leading to alarming rises in asthma, lung disease and pollution, even in rural and suburban areas. Arbor Day may be more boring then Christmas, but would surely improve the air of your great grandchildrens cities and towns then the current practice of hacking down trees and throwing them in a chipper a few weeks later.

"Addressing your distress of the shrinking landfills, the "cheap disposable paper" which ends up in the trash will be burned up. If anyone in the future has the unlikely desire to dig deeply into any landfill, I seriously doubt they will find Christmas wrapping paper."

Hopefully paper would be recycled, but it still adds to the bulk of garbage that needs to be carted and the plastic takes centuries to decompose. The U.S. is the worst country in the world in the practice of burning garbage, we do about 11%, even selling much of our garbage to China where they burn it for energy. Denmark for example, burns over 50% of its garbage, helping energy and waste management problems simultaneously. Again we avoid reexamination of our customs and resist retooling our habits to meet the needs of our children's future as an insidiously selfish generation of Americans.

In 2006 the country's savings for the first time went into the negative, meaning more money has been borrowed then is owned. I commend you for living within your means, as do I, but surely you would agree that materialism is a serious nationwide problem. Yet industry encourages bigger and earlier Christmas seasons each year, the opposite of what our society needs to do to reverse it's financial irresponsibilty.

To Cbreeze, I was hoping you could back up your statement that "there's no energy shortage" with some facts and sources. I think a lot of people feel the opposite, such as all the major oil companies who are spending 40% of their record profits trying to find new sources of oil and are finding less each year. Also the CEO of GM who just went crawling to Toyota looking to make deals and pretty much all of the academic, scentific and international community. The price of gas and home heating oil doubled since 2000, do you think that indicates increase in supply or demand? The U.S. is "addicted" to foreign oil at a time where consumption is still growing and China's consumption is skyrocketing. As far as I'm concerned, we've been in a "shortage" since the day we had to rely on imported oil. They say "peak oil" may be 10-15 years away or may have already passed.

Easter may be "holier" then Christmas whatever that means, but most of America considers Christmas far more important, again showing that the masses are more interested in x-boxes then Xmas. Thus, the creation of the Easter Bunny and egg-painting games, another PR move designed to entice more participation in Easter and particularly with children. I would think the more religious you actually are the more you'd despise every single TV and print ad using Christmas to sell products.

bobbit said: "The worst part of your "comment" is how you claim to speak to what Jesus would want when you seem to know so little about Him...As to Jesus' feelings about overeatting, etc. that you allude to, Jesus Himself was known to provide great quantities of food and drink to people."

My vision of Jesus is that he helped feed the hungry less fortunate, but when you say he "...was known to provide great quantities of food and drink to people" are you saying he fed people more then a properly-sized portion? I think most people would agree with the belief that one of Christianity's important messages is to see Jesus as a role model for perfection and resist the type of gluttony, indulgence and gravy-sucking overconsumption we see in modern American.

alopekos
Thanks alopekos, I would be proud to serve with you and many others here however, I’ve always worked/hunted alone. Today my eyes are not what they once were and I’m not as quick but my ears and nose are much sharper. As for the shot, the rifle is a great piece of work very accurate and dependable. My dad had an old WWII German Mouser which I had handled but never fired. I have it now. Still, I’ve not ever taken it to the range. I guess it’s more of a keepsake that reminds me of the times when we hunted together. Now he was an excellent shot. Me, I’m just fair to good.

See you in another thread.

johnny
OK I'll keep you around, we just don't tolerate Trolls.
But I can't speak for the other members, after all you did tell another:
=================================================
StromsDaughter
StromsDaughter writes: Friday, December, 29, 2006 6:26 PM
"Why are you so worried?
Kwanzaa is an African American holiday therefore, it was not intended for you to celebrate or understand.

Why are you so interested in what African Americans choose to celebrate? It is free country."

I think it's called racism. They won't admit to it though. They like to hide behind the "iron curtain".
There are a lot of racists and bigots on this site.
I've never seen anything like it.
=================================================
This may p!ss off a few, so don't be surprized if it happens.
Though I suggest you change your name, and when you return, you might find us interesting, and quite informed.
Your ideas are welcome, but be yourself.

Why would
you have me removed? I haven't done anything but post my opinions. I am a liberal so what's the problem solar?

It is your issue about me being a socialist. I am not a socialist. You keep insisting on it though.

You don't like the things I say. You call me a Marxist because my family didn't exchange presents at Christmas. So what is that? I wasn't even the one who came up with the idea, it was another member of my family. And, really I didn't have to tell about it. But, I simply was explaining we wanted to celebrate Christmas in a different manner this year.

Whew!

You need to get some humor solar.

johnny
If you would have come here as a lib. most would converse with you.
But you decided to deceive.
Last tactic of a Troll.
I say last, because I will be having you removed from the site.
You will need a new DNS adress if you wish to return, and if you would like to return, you will need to come as yourself, a True Socialist.
You don't need to hide it, just expect a whole lot of Crap.
Thats all.

solar dude
You misspelled society again.

I don't see much ideas coming out of you. I see a lot of paranoia though. Do you suffer from it?

solar dude
I see plenty of libs on this site. Why would you want to limit your learning experience by hearing only those views that agree with yours?

I see you can only stoop to calling names again.
I find it funny. There is nothing to refute in your charges because they are vacant like your soul.

johnny
Only a lib. vacant of ideas, would mention spelling.
I did'nt see you refuting my charges.
Marxist!

You claim, that it was an experiment, to come in here with Socialist ideas...
Nice try Troll!
Find another site, this one is for Conservatives, as you noticed when you agreed to the rules...
Oh wait, you're a lib. they never follow the rules of soceity.
Also I see you lied about your age, I have ways of finding out, Youngin!

solar dude
"This nut also tortured people, full story below.
This comunist was also crazy...

Well that was a stupid statement...
Crazy Comunist..I crack me up. ( :
That would be like dumb lib..
Why do I state the obvious...I need breakfast, and coffee..."

You need more than coffee dude.

More misspellings: comunist is spelled communist


GunnyG
"We're just poking fun libdolt so quit whining, you'll end up vomiting up your pablum. No one here wants to kill liberals, they provide us with too much entertainment!"

Bad grammar:

You need to put a period after "whining". Start a new sentence with "You'll end up.....

You need to put a period after "liberals". Then you need to start a new sentence with "They provide...."

Perhaps you're a child with poor grammar.
Is that the problem?

Pitbull dude
pitbull writes: Thursday, December, 28, 2006 6:09 PM

"- wait till the peanut man goes back to the farm in the sky - the heavens will weap and the libs will cry in their tofu for months - "

You misspelled weep.

StromsDaughter
StromsDaughter writes: Friday, December, 29, 2006 6:26 PM
"Why are you so worried?
Kwanzaa is an African American holiday therefore, it was not intended for you to celebrate or understand.

Why are you so interested in what African Americans choose to celebrate? It is free country."

I think it's called racism. They won't admit to it though. They like to hide behind the "iron curtain".
There are a lot of racists and bigots on this site.
I've never seen anything like it.

solar dude
solar writes: Friday, December, 29, 2006 10:51 AM
catattack
You better hope Christmas gets big, because the alternative is a prayre rug, and a rag wrapped around your head.
Your Choice!

tsk! tsk! You have another spelling error solar.

Prayre is spelled prayer.

Freedom Writer
You're right, the conservatives don't criticize the EPA and the Dept of Ed very much. Falling back on "compared to what" who is doing it better?

GunnyG
"Thank God I have NEVER had a NEGLIGENT discharge (there are NO accidental discharges) but I seen others do it."

Improper use of the verb saw. This sentence should have been written like this: "...but I saw others do it."

GunnyG
Through ignorance, i was responsible for a negligent discharge which happened after i was no longer on the scene. I "unloaded" a friend's tubular magazine .22 by ejecting the chambered round, pulling out the magazine tube and emptying the mag, replacing the tube and closing the bolt. A round remained in the rifle, and the act of closing the bolt loaded the chamber. Several days later my friend picked up the rifle,DID NOT Check for loaded condition, pulled the trigger and put one into his bedroom wall. Naturally he was hot telling me about it. We went back to his house, i repeated my actions, and we confirmed what happened. This danger exists with all tube mag repeaters i've ever seen. The solution is empty the mag, then work the action until you can see the tube follower. For backup, of course, never assume a firearm is unloaded because you left it unloaded. Open that bolt as soon as you put hands on a firearm. They don't shoot when the action is open, as every skeet and firing range shooter knows.

You're a good man Mr. Iron
You're a good man Mr. Big Iron. If the SOBs do get here (God forbid) and we get our hands on a crew served weappon, I'll defer to your superior marksmanship and feed the ammo to you. I pray that our brave young folks can keep the bad guys at bay wherever they pop up.

solar
"This is a racial biggots idea."

You misspelled bigot. Try using the spell checker.

solar dude
You can't spell. Trool.

"This is why you received so much sh^t,
You come in here purporting to be a Conservative, and then began Troling.
I hope you enjoyed yourself, because weve got your #, you may do a name change, but we know and will recognize your style.
And I will personally Shread you!"

Oh big man solar, I'm just shaking with fear. When are you going to shred me?

Now, I wonder which of your buddies are going to point out all of your misspellings? Probably none because you agree with them on everything. So, your misspellings and poor grammar don't matter.
But, if I misspell or forget my grammar I get beat up.
Notice any contradictions solar?

Your first sentence needed a period not a comma.
Your second sentence misspells trolling.
You spelled we've as weve, another mistake.
You also spelled shred wrong in your last sentence.

Cheers

StromsDaughter: Get a Clue!
This is not a black celebratory Holyday,
This is a racial biggots idea.

http://www.nathanielturner.com/karenga2.htm

black strap morass
How demoralizing it is to subject our "equal" partners in this melting pot to such a substitute for a religion. The white liberals ought to listen to a good soul sermon and get their minds straight. A lot of preachers would love to give the libs` a strapping in the wood-shed for trying to lower their intelligence.


alopekos
I was mad when I came home. I was mad in 91, I’m mad now and I’m mad because, at 67, I’m too old. Should they come here (and I pray they do not) however should they: you’re going to see a mad man have a big smile on his ugly face.

Clinton drastically cut our armed forces during his administration (for lack of a better word). Today however; politicians are putting out feelers for increasing active duty personnel and Charles Rangel wants a draft. Lets hope a “larger all volunteer force” is approved.

Yes, as you point out we do have other problem areas in the world. But our immediate problem is our resolve to complete the mission in Iraq. Success or failure (cut and run) will have a direct effect on those problem areas. Should we leave before completing the mission, it will embolden both our present and a furture enemy.

This WOT is going to be a long hard slog. Moreover, if the citizens of this nation don’t pull up there boot straps, tighten there belts and face reality, it will develop into a far longer and … bloodier conflict.

You ask if “we [will] have enough left after Iraq …?” That will depend on our next Congress. We have the resources and we have the man power. If Congress and the people of this nation get behind and push, we will do what it takes to prevail.

re: A Farce
Why is it that you feel compelled to denigrate Islam? Aren't there perfectly peaceful segments of Islam all over the globe? When was the last religious wars in Turkey or Egypt? Sure, there are zealots in the Islamic faith but most people are just people and want to live their lives in peace.

Man With the Big Iron
I completely agree with you and I want to add that the actions of the Liberals and the Liberal media are what led to the slaughter democide of some 4 million innocent victims in Laos, Cambodia and South Vietnam.

Liberals somehow want to take credit for "ending the war" and yet they don't feel that their actions caused the greatest civilian slaughter of the late 20th century.

Now we see Liberals screaming for us to cut and run from Iraq. I do believe that nothing would thrill them more than another Pol Pot democide which they would immediately blame on Bush instead of their own policies.

A Farce
Why should anyone be surprised at President Bush's Kwanzaa greeting. Hes the same guy that calls Islam a "religion of peace."
The only thing I find interesting about this "holiday" is that they seem to use some sort of candle-holder that suspiciously resembles the Jewish people's Chanukah Menorah. Talk about chutzpah: ripping off a religious symbol that has been around for over a thousand years.
I find this "holiday" as farcical as those moronic TV programs with their black police officers, judges and FBI agents fighting all that violent white crime running rampant in the streets of America's cities.

What, me worry?
StromsDaughter,
Kwanzaa is a non-issue to most white people. You're right. It's a free country. I'm not a terribly religious American. However, I recognize Christmas as a way to remind me that we are all fellow travelers to the grave and to bestow kindness and compassion in any small way that I can. I give a little extra to charities at this time. This year, I tried to give as much as I could afford to our disabled vets. I renew family ties as best I can. I try to take time from hectic work days to wish fellow Americans of all races a Merry Christmas or a Happy New Year. If you and other Americans of African descent desire an esoteric, exclusionary holiday with rather dubious origins who am I to stop you?

Man with the Big Iron
You're right Mr. Iron. I don't know what a rough war is, but I do remember the history. I was seventeen and waiting to start BCT immediately after high school when Saigon fell. With a nod to Mike Ranney (God rest his hero's soul)- E Co., 506th Para. Regt., 101st Abn, I can say that I'm not a particularly brave man. I did have the honor to serve in the same unit as brave men. Based on the content of your posts, I suspect that you may have been one of those men also. There were some bitter guys who were angry at not being able to complete the task. They were usually not angry with the American public who only thinks first (rightly or wrongly from a strategic perspective) of the welfare and safety of its sons. Usually their wrath was saved for gutless, opportunistic politicians. I always felt a little embarrassed (and a little guilty) at being too young to join them back then. I feel a little guilty at being too old to join our fine young people now.
You have good and honorable reasons for wanting to take the fight to the enemy. You may even have personal reasons for seeing that we follow through this time. I respect that. We were in good shape to finish the job militarily in Vietnam. Our nation's industrial might was still largely intact. We didn't have a trillion dollars of currency held by China, a nation that is plotting our demise in the western Pacific. We didn't import our food, steel and oil from potential enemies. Our military was at least three times larger. Our infrastructure was in better shape and we didn't have millions of unassimilated inhabitants in our country.
A good commander commits his reserve when the battle is nearly complete. He commits it to either mop up pockets of resistance or in desperation to save the day. We have been committing our reserves almost from day one and the battle is not nearly over. We have depots filled with battalions of broken armor and vehicles.
I hate everything for which the Islamists stand. I not only would like to see them dead, but their barbaric ideology humiliated for a thousand years. But I'm in fear for our nation's long term survival. I'm concerned about a resurgent Russia and an emerging China who bide their time while our nation does the heavy lifting against these cretins. Do we have enough left after Iraq to counter a play by the other dirty rascals in the world?

The national police
Considering all the wrath Ann Coulter vents at the Looney Toons liberals, it's a shame she expresses none for the FBI and its nefarious schemes. It was, she suggests, "probably a foolish gamble" for the FBI to encourage Black Nationalist groups in order to divide and discredit the left. That's pretty mild criticism from Coulter, as she informs us that the FBI created a "proto-fascist" organization to oppose the Black Panthers. Somehow it doesn't quite seem like the kind of thing a government of few and enumerated powers ought to be doing, does it?

Yet how often do we find criticism of the FBI in the writings and speeches of conservative columnists and commentators? Would "almost never" be a fairly accurate answer? But then conservatives have pretty much stopped protesting the excesses and abbuses of departments like Education and the EPA as well. The only thing conservatives seem interested in conserving these days is money (principally their own), influence and positions of power for themselves and their friends.


bluedog
Check out the posts that followed mine, and a few prior.
Don't feel duped, that is his goal, then it hits you.

solar writes: Thursday, December, 28, 2006 4:43 PM
Savage99 ,Primus, Fergus and Colosteve
I must admit, I never even read one of his posts, till today.
I personally would like to know which one of you guys it really is? Primus, Fergus Well?
Just kidn...
His writing is an obvious spoof, and I must say quite well done.
I may even try my hand at it one day soon.
Think about it, all you have to do is write the opposite of what is rational.

alopekos
I don’t recall referring to you as a “liberal.” But first, let’s clear up a misconception regarding Vietnam then we can discuss Iraq.

At the conclusion of the 68 Tiet offensive, the NVA was striped of it core regulars. They suffered loses estimated to be about 50,000 at the low end and about 80,000 at the high end. It was obvious even to the NVA that if something didn’t change their military venture in the South was about to come to a close. Don’t believe me? Read NVA General Gap’s book (may be the wrong last name).

However, our dear fearless military leader General Hanoi Walter (CSB, no not CBS) Cronkite (sic) gave them the support they needed. He came home and pulled out his Ouija Board only to discover we had lost the war. I could go on add nauseam. But my point is, it is a fact the MSM, the anti war movement, and the political cronies of that era gave the NVA the support they needed to continue on. Thus, my conclusion/statement, they murdered our solders. Harsh though it may be it’s a fact.

I agree, we did not have good military leaders fielded. But even with their screw ups, they did not loose the war. Today we are faced with the same “cut and run” policy problem. Some of the faces remain the same Kerry and Fonda immediately come to mind. But over all, only the names, faces and theater of conflict have changed.

Yes Generals “have a greater, not [a] lesser duty to follow the order of their superiors …” However, Generals put forth their best assessment at the time and proceed forward. Yes, General Patton had disagreements with his superiors however; once he was ordered to proceed he did it with veracity. Yes, he didn’t approve of General Bradley’s “cautious approach.” Today we know that General Patton’s approach may have ended the war sooner. But, that’s debatable. On the other hand, General Montgomery’s approach resulted in lives lost for not. It would have been foolish for Ike to have followed Monty’s lead. But an in theater General’s opinion how to prosecute the war is not the problem. It’s the sidewalk generals here at home.

Succinctly, you do not hire a grounds keeper to design a high rise building. Nor do you put forth a “cut and run” policy after you have voted for the war and it gets a little rough.

If you think this is a “rough war,” you have no idea what war is.

Loyal Democrat
You make as much sense as a submarine with screen doors. WHITE oppresion????????????
Wasn't whites that sold those people to slavery for trinkets and beads, it was their own chiefs. And from most of the slavery decendants, I can see why he sold them. Getting them off welfare there too. Colored folks here have it made. If you don't think so, look at all the nations of Africa run by colored folks. They are still some of the poorest people in one of the richest nations in the world. Man 2+2=4, always has, always will, and if one can't see the reality of it, it is NOT my fault. I would suggest that you and those who think like you, should get their heads out of the sand or other places and read and study history. Not the fabricated garbage some people or spewing these days. As far as my calling them colored people, what does NAACP stand for?

Look at the bright side of Kwanzaa.
"The only principle Kwanzaa promotes is liberals' unbounded capacity to respect any faith but Christianity."

The people who would celebrate Kwanzaa, are disrespectful of almost everything. If they resect something, that is a positive element that would not otherwise exist.

Response to Loyal Democrat
You are now officially my favorite Townhall poster. I enjoy your post even more than the columns on which they comment.

catattack
You better hope Christmas gets big, because the alternative is a prayre rug, and a rag wrapped around your head.
Your Choice!

Can you spell Stoopid?
No'nor can I obviously spell TROLL!

Whites Represent SLAVERY?
Wow, that was quite a statement from a troll. I wonder who he thinks started slavery? After all, the Arabs simply commercialized what was a normal part of African culture.

I suppose the idea behind the black movements was that it was better to blame someone else for all of your failings than to address them yourself.

And that's certainly a cultural idea that the Liberals have picked up on without remorse.

The above post was for Johnny
Thats why I call you a trool!
Sorry for any confusion. ( :

Thats why I call you a trool!
This is why you received so much sh^t,
You come in here purporting to be a Conservative, and then began Troling.
I hope you enjoyed yourself, because weve got your #, you may do a name change, but we know and will recognize your style.
And I will personally Shread you!

To the others' Do Not Feed the Trolls!
But I hear they taste like Spotted Owls' Enjoy!

alopekos
I just threw out some wild statements in the beginning to see what kinds of responses I would get. I sure got an eyeful.

Then as time went on I would state this or that idea or thought, but it made no difference because people had their minds made up about me at the first inception.

I played around with this just to see what it would feel like to be someone who doesn't hold all the exact same ideas that a right wing person does.

Some of the statements I made were just very bland, like not giving gifts for Christmas. And, I got called a Marxist.

I wanted to see how people here would respond.
It has been a very interesting experiment.

Savage99
This bears repeating!

"NEVER relax around a firearm. An accidental discharge is a horror. An uncontrolled muzzle is a tragedy."

Thank God I have NEVER had a NEGLIGENT discharge (there are NO accidental discharges) but I seen others do it. Always bad. Thankfully, the muzzles were always elevated and downrange.

Remember the old Russian Proverb: The EMPTY gun ALWAYS shoots the loudest.

g'morning
lots of posts here since I got off work yesterday....up to 313.
I see NYC1AAA is still off his meds.

Chirstmas in Italy vs America
WWJD - Excellent observations you made between Christian holidays and pagan holidays.

It's true many Americans spend too much, eat and drink too much and waste loads of electricty and kill trees for a holiday that isn't about spending or gorging.

I've been living in Italy for some years and come back to the states in December to visit and I must say each year I get more nauseated with the commericialism of Christmas and the 'demands' made on fellow Christians to 'enjoy' the celebrations with 'buy-buy-buy' and with every fricken store playing Christmas songs. It's such a relief to come back to Italy and experience Christmas without the commercialism. I'm not stressed, and I feel more the true meaning of the holiday.

You'd be happy to know that they don't sell 'murdered' trees here, instead, most families display a Nativity scene or buy a fake tree. Alas, commercialism of Christmas is slowly creeping it's ugly head here - I just hope it never becomes how it is in America.

As for Kwanzaa - I'm glad Ann is writing about this fake holiday each year. We need to shout out this sham holiday loud and often. As well as tell the world that "palestians' don't exist and are really arabs. But that's another story.

I must repectfully disagree again
Man with the Big Iron,
Generals in the war have a greater, not lesser duty to follow the orders of their superiors without debate. That is the military code. I agree that we have second guessing of the CIC by civilians, but much of the blame can be placed at the feet of the CIC for not fully communicating the war aims. We don't have to tuck our tail and run, but we should evaluate whether we are protecting our national security interests or allowing ourselves to get sucked into a two front conflict. Sometimes we fight for the Islamists (ex. Kosovo). Sometimes we fight against them. If we can't bring total war to the Middle East region because of potential economic repercussions, is our goal just to keep two rowdy knuckleheads apart? If Iraq is a strategic springboard to seize control of Middle Eastern oil for our use and kill the Islamists, I can surely get behind that.
On the other hand, if we are just trying to maintain a balance of power between Sunni and Shia factions in an open-ended, politically- correct, police action, I have a litle harder time justifying the cost of American blood and treasure in my mind. Since they seem just as likely to freely elect into power regimes that are hostile to our interests, I don't give a damn if they ever have another free election again. I love my fellow citizens, my constitution and my nation, not some a**h***s in Mesopotamia.
The Vietnam conflict couldn't go on ad nauseum in its 1970 form. We didn't have leadership with the intestinal fortitude to end it militarily. I'm afraid that our politicians can live with a low intensity Iraqi conflict that will drag on for decades without resolution, just to keep pampered Saudi royals in balance with wacko Iranian mullahs.
If that makes me a liberal p**** in your eyes, so be it, Mr. Iron.

I voted for Bush
so is he a pinhead?
Just got a laugh out of alopekos saying "the pinhead that Johnny would vote for" or something like that.
I'm too tired to quote exactly.

alopekos
One can debate tactics of a war. That’s “a” purpose of the War College. Civilians should not debate war tactics during a war. That’s the jurisdiction of CIC and the Generals. And furthermore, I did not say a war cannot be debated by civilians. Civilians must wait their turn, which comes after the war. Hint: those you cite as debating the war were Generals “in the war.” Furthermore, they may have disagreed but they never said its time to tuck our tails between our legs and go home.

Question: just where did I say, Johnny did not have the “right to vote for pin-headed representatives …?”

You fear me? Aaaa I’m touched but that is cute.

Kwanzaa is somewhat unique
Alien,
The original focus of Kwanzaa was black separatism. If the KKK came up with a holiday that celebrated the founding of Liberia and the emigration of Americans of African descent to that failed state, would you be a supporter of the holiday? We should celebrate our common ambitions, not our group differences. The current manifestation of Kwanzaa is innocuous and largely irrelevant to most Americans. As long as it does not become a source of division, it will likely cause no harm. Ann gets this bug about the holiday's origin every year and trots out the same old article.

Johnny
Quit worrying about being called a liberal. You’re far better off worrying about being a liberal. I’ve been called a lot of names none of which can be repeated here. I personally don’t care what I’m called as long as they call me to dinner.

To Gunny et al. Now for a personal shooting exercise, I get to blow my rifle horn too. When I came home in 75, I went back to my roots (the ranch). While feeding the cattle one morning I spotted a coyote at about 150 yards heading straight from me and up hill for the timber. I mentioned that if I had a rifle I’d drop him. We’d had some running with wild dogs and they learn to kill for the sake of killing. The guy I was with said he had a mouser (WWII type) back behind the seat and some ammo in the glove box. I tipped the seat back grabbed the rifle put two rounds in the mag took a fine bead with some lead and dropped him with one shot. Shot was dead center of the back of the head. By the time I took the shot he was about 200-225 yards away and on a dead run. The meat head that had the rifle didn’t even know if it would shoot and boy was it dirty.

OK, now I’ve blown my horn. Tote Tot.

One can debate tactics in a war
Man With the Big Iron,
Shadow of the Future, I fear you more than any of the posters that I have met on this topic. Your nickname and references to riders on dark horses gives you the gravitas that I could never have.
However, I do not agree that citizens outside of the miltary chain of command must unquestioningly accept the way in which our nation's war is being prosecuted. In a society that upholds the virtue of liberty, there can be open debate on the topic. Our history is replete with controversial dissenting statements made during a war. General Geo. Patton was certainly no man to accuse of giving comfort to the Nazis. Did he not famously dissent with Omar Bradley and Ike over the conduct of the war in France? He called his superior "Omar the Tent Maker" and groused about his cautious approach. Montgomery did likewise to Ike. These guys were in the chain of command. We civilians can certainly disagree over strategy and deployment without giving aid and comfort. johnny (sic) may have half-baked ideas, but he has the right to vote for pin-headed representatives that may implement them.
Please don't come and kill me Mr. Big Iron because I disagree with some of your points. I'm a veteran and a tax payer. I have little kids to raise and they will avenge me.

Once a hater always a hater
If the world turned into Utopia tomorrow, Ann would still conjure up hate, somehow. Who the hell CARES where Kwanzaa came from; if anybody wants to celebrate it, by all means. Does anyone question where Christmas trees came from? Festivals, holidays and yes, religions evolve with people and so it should be. Ann and her phony War-On-Christmas crowd is fast losing relevance where it lost sanity last year. Good riddance!!.

alopekos
I just threw out some wild statements in the beginning to see what kinds of responses I would get. I sure got an eyeful.

Then as time went on I would state this or that idea or thought, but it made no difference because people had their minds made up about me at the first inception.

I played around with this just to see what it would feel like to be someone who doesn't hold all the exact same ideas that a right wing person does.

Some of the statements I made were just very bland, like not giving gifts for Christmas. And, I got called a Marxist.

I wanted to see how people here would respond.
It has been a very interesting experiment.

Man with Big Iron
I'm not sure I understand your response. I said I did NOT protest the war in Vietnam. I never did.
I know how many people died in nam. My uncle died there.
I don't protest the Iraq war if that is what you're referring to. My complaint is that Bush doesn't fight the war all out like a real war. My brother came home to humiliation and epithets. I don't want that happening to our troops today.

Change your nickname and start over
johnny,
I trust that you are an independent-minded, decent fellow that has healthy disagreements with the Republicans, Neo Cons, Paleo Cons, Crunchy Cons and Donkey Coms. Just settle down and come back under a new nickname. A fresh start may stop everyone from chewing on your butt every time that you post. Please just think about where you stand and be consistent with your ideas. Come on back and don't be so defensive. Don't just attack President Bush for various policies that all of Washington has a hand in. Most of us are smart enough to realize that politicians are primarily driven by the interests of their respective parties and the lobbying groups. We just hope to elect ones that think about the greater good of the nation occasionally. Try to be a little more coherent and you might even trick Pitbull into thinking that you're rational.

Scarlet
Don't delay. Lost time is never found again. Hitting what you aim at IS fun. Never relax around a firearm. An accidental discharge is a horror. An uncontrolled muzzle is a trajedy.

Johnny
I understand why you didn’t protest the war in Vietnam while you brother was fighting there. But please understand this. Protesting or debating any war has it place and time. Timing, being the more critical of the two, one must consider the ramifications of when to protest and when to debate. To me timing is axiomatic. You protest/debate a war before the war; you debate a war after the war. Why? Because, protesting/debating a war during its execution murders your county’s soldiers and gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

Should you question my reasoning, my explanation/reasoning follows. If by protesting/debating a war during its execution convinces one, yes just one, of the enemy that his enemy (being us) is loosing support on the home front and he will win not militarily but politically thus he must continue waging war/terrorism, the protests/debates has lent its hand to the murder of our armed forces. War is intended to be the final act/option. But when war becomes the final option you annihilate and crush the enemy both physically and mentally. You prosecute it with “extreme prejudice.”

North Vietnam won the Vietnam War politically, not militarily. Congress and the 60’s generation failed this country and its ally. This failure cost the lives of about 3,000,000 people. Moreover, there are 58,000+ heroes on the wall in DC whose lives were taken for not. Now how many lives would have been saved had the anti war crap not reared its ugly head above the sewer? How many lives will be for not if the left has it way, again?

Any former service/active duty man here posting will tell you that when you face the rider on the dark horse, reality has a “profound way” of opening one’s eyes to the real world around him.

Buy early, buy often, and avoid the rush.

markmanship
for those out there who don't know, shooting at something and hitting it are two different things. I went out a while back with my family and we all brought our collection of guns. There was a 45 automatic, 2 shotguns, 22 revolver, a regular rifle, and the little brother of an AK47. I know little about guns so I can't remember what the automatic weapon was - something like a 224(?)

So we shoot a few rounds. Let me tell you it was LOUD!!! We put in our earplugs as was suggested and I can see why. I fired the 45 and let me tell everyone: the movies are indeed make believe. The scene where the guys are aiming sideways and shooting in the warehouse and yelling to eachother? Impossible. For one thing, they'd be deaf. It'd be like having a jet engine in one ear and vintage Van Halen live in concert in the other. Also, we were about 10 yards or so from the target. I was thinking "easy pickin's". Haha. With the 45 I was lucky enough to hit the tree with the target on it. That sucker has a kick and it gets heavy whilst I aimed it.

I did great with the 22 and, of course, the shotguns. That was great fun.

The best part was when my step-dad unloaded in the creek bed with the automatic rifle. My brother-in-law and I about shiite ourselves when we heard the sound and saw the dirt kick up. Impressive. That weapon was fun to fire! It must have been semi-auto come to think of it because we could adjust it to single shots as well as bursts.

Before anyone worries we practiced firearm safety. My step-dad is a former marine so he showed us what to do and what not to do. I will eventually get around to having my wife and I take firearm safety courses as well as pracice with pistols. It is really fun and one learns to respect weapons and understand that we control them and that they are just tools.

solar
There you go again calling me a lib. I know you said people can make gifts. My family just chose not to do anything about any gifts, but spend time with one another knowing these may be some of our last days together. We prayed about that. We enjoyed one another's company, had laughs and good talks.

I have never seen such preconceived ideas in my life as I've encountered here. You and others just made your minds up about what you "think" I am and can't get off of it.

Whatever I say you have a name for me. Not giving gifts I am called a Marxist.

Not thinking guns are appropriate gifts at Christmas makes me "against the 2nd amendment".

Can you even see your bigotry and hatefulness towards someone whose opinions and ideas may be different from yours?

On top of that a lot of what I believe is not so different from your beliefs, but I'm still branded some label.

Kwanzaa malaprops
I thought Kwanzaa was an East Africa word. If so, why are American descendants of slaves from West Africa adopting the word for their holiday celebration?

I believe some nutty professor in Georgia dreamed up the whole thing, though the theory that the CIA, FBI, whitey et al made an Uncle Tom federal snitch do it to split black Americans makes a better story.

It seems the ethnic origin of the word Kwanzaa has been sufficient to split the blacks.


johnny
Just like a lib.
You conviently skipped the part where I said you could make a gift, those are the most important gifts of all.
They are personal, anyone can buy a trinket, but when you spend time on something, it shows you were thinking about them.

American experience that we can share
Skip,
That was a delightful story. I don't believe that it's off topic at all. It's a story that illustrates how our common experiences are often stronger than the superficial things like skin color that seem to divide us. We all share common hopes and dreams for ourselves and our families regardless of our race. There are so many things that unite us, if only we ignore appearances. The "magic" of instant communication between far-flung posters pulls us closer to our common American identity.

Skip
Puff away Nimrod. Canjar trigger and handloads, eh? All the luck was with the groundhog, and it was all bad. Memories like that warm the heart. You notice i have no trouble remembering(and recounting) the times everything came together for me. As for me, when i smoked those beer cans, i casually remarked the old Colt was still sighted in pretty good and put it back in the case. I had just come back from Ascension Island and was still very appreciative of the British gift for bragging by understatement.

As for off topic, we deal with problems on these posts and:

There are very few problems that a man can't fix
With a few American dollars and a .30/06.

Gunny:
That was great shooting with both weapons. I am not too familiar with M16 type weapons, but I did carry a 1911 Officer's Model for several years. It was a jewel, and I became proficient with it through consistent practice. At my best I doubt that I could have hit that can with that number of shots at that distance. I practiced at seven yards, knowing that most confrontations take placeat very close range.


I can understand you wanting to leave that feat alone. I called a shot on a Pennsylvania groundhog at 450 yards (measured several times by two now obsolete split image range finders). I told the people I was with that I would shoot that groundhog in the ear the next time it showed itself.


It is relevant that I had two previous cracks at that particular groundhog, and was able to observe bullet impact of the first two shots. When I squeezed off the third shot the target was at 5 o'clock, and almost out of the sight picture. I had considered windage and elevation, based on point of impact of the first two attempts.


We all agreed that it was a hit. There is a distinctive sound that is different than a round hitting the dirt. There were also two spotting scopes and a pair of binoculars on the target, and the spotters called it a hit.


One of my partners went back out of the farmer's drive way, back down the road to the lane that lead to the hedgerow above where the grounhog had been standing. We used hand signals to direct him to the groundhog. He bent over, looked at it, and jumped straight up in the air. He let out a holler we could easily hear.


He brought the chuck back to us, and the bullet had hit it precisely in the ear. Now I was using a Ruger 77V in 220 Swift. I had mounted a Leupold 12x scope, the rifle was glass bedded, and I had a Canjar Delux trigger on the Ruger.


That rig was just about ideal for the use I put it too. I confess that without the scope, the handload I had developed for that particular rifle, the steady rest, and LUCK, I would never have made the shot.


Now my buddies were really dumbfounded. One of them even called me a name, and asked "How did you make that shot? Of course that afforded an opportunity for me to enlighten them on what had gone into a spectacular performance like that.


I modestly described the virtues of the rifle, the ammunition I had crafted and tested over a period of time, my own experience at long range riflery, my eyes, which could be compared to those of an eagle, and my absolute control of the trigger. I never could understand their reaction to my explanation. I think they may have missed out on the modesty and humility that characterized my comments.


Anyway, iron sights would not have made that shot possible, and having become even more modest as I aged, I will confess. If I had been asked to repeat that shot, I would probably not have been able to. As modest as I am today, I would never admit that to my shooting partners. That shot should stand alone. Why mess up a memory like that?


P.S. Sorry to be so off topic, but I have been described by some as a gun nut. I always took that as a compliment.


Robert E Lee
I was being sarcastic when I wrote that the sixties had a lot to offer, birth control, etc.

Thanks for the Marksmanship Education
Savage99,
I was just surprised at the accuracy achieved by the M16A2 firing the 5.56mm round. Of course, GunnyG had a lot of skill to contribute also. I would have expected better accuracy from the bigger .30 caliber rounds. When my boy gets a little bigger (he's only 3 now), I'll give him my Mini-14 (yes johnny, it will be a gift of a gun) and graduate to an M1A1 in .308 to achieve that kind of accuracy.

Roy
What a good post you wrote. Martin Luther King was a man I admired. I can tell from your post that we had much in common during those days.

Separatism just means hanging alone
Roy
Thanks for getting us back on topic with your insightful post. You are so very correct. I think that the majority of thinking people understand that one's level of skin pigment has nothing to do with one's character. Americans of African descent don't need to stand off from the larger society with holidays that seem to celebrate separatism. Most white Americans can't trace their genealogy back more than a few generations either. Records were lost and people often don't put much effort into researching their roots. As we become further removed from sins of the past, it makes less sense to paint each other as members of either the oppressor or victim class. The average American, of any race, lacks the power to affect the lives of his fellow citizens either positively or negatively in any significant way. We are all in the same great ark and must cooperate with each other. We must move forward and celebrate our unity as a nation. By doing so, we may set a good example for other feuding tribes of the world. God knows that we need a good example to follow now more than ever.
God bless you Roy and have a happy New Year!

Alopekos
Some clarifying details. The Colt Officer's Model Match is a .38 revolver. Mine was manufactured in the 20's i believe. I bought it mail order when the US Post Office Pistol Team sold its guns. Colt's .45 1911 target model is called the Colt Match Target, i think. There are lots here to correct me if i'm wrong, and i don't mind better info than what i'm dragging around.
The 6 inch x ring i mentioned is used as a tie breaker in the 1000 yard matches fired at Camp Perry. Its an international competition, fired with centerfire rifles with receiver sights. .30/06 is a popular caliber, but lots of others are used. I believe the blacked portion of the target is about 36 inches so it can be seen, but the 10 ring is about 18 inches. The x ring is inside the 10 ring. Typically several shooters will keep all their shots in the 10 ring, with the number in the x ring breaking ties. I'm not really familiar with this competition in detail, maybe a competitor will provide more accurate data. My point was that GunnyG's 19 out of 20 in the 10 ring at 600 yards is no slouch, but hardly stressing the envelope, as he notes. My best long range performance was 6 out of 8 from a .30/06 caliber Garand into a 36 inch black at 700 yards on what the Army called the assault course. They didn't tell me the range before i shot, so range estimation and knowing where your bullets would strike at that range was a big part of getting a hit. My rifle was sighted in for 300 yards. I held what i figured was 20 inches high. Whatever, i got hits.

Poor little johnny
Talk about a confused puppy!

"The 60's had a lot of good things if you read your history books. I don't know why everyone makes the 60's sound horrible. There was the Beatles music and birth control started. Women for the first time in history could have sex like men and not worry like men. I liked that so women could be more open and honest."

Beatles music, birth control, and equality defined merely as equal-opportunity sexual promiscuity, and all it took to make it "right" was for folks to be "honest" about it! Wow, what progress! Just thinking about these things has me wanting to hop aboard the nearest time machine for a trip back to those utopian days of yesteryear --- NOT!

Man with Big Iron
I don't think I "chastised" Gunny but if that is how it was taken so be it.

Gunny chastises quite a bit on here don't you think so. And, I see so many generalizations being made.
Pitbull still refers to me as an "aging hippie" which I never was, a hippie, that is. Aging yes, but never a hippie.

I admire all those who have fought for our country and consider them heroes. My brother fought in Vietnam.

So, I don't know if that will exonerate me from being a hippie, I somehow doubt it, but I wasn't going to protest in the streets about a war my brother was fighting. Would that make a lick of sense to anyone here on TH?




pitbull
I went with my dad to numerous reunions of his sub vet buddies and one of the wives mentioned that she had been coming for decades. The battles were worse every year, more depth charges, more torpedoes shot, etc.

Gotta love war stories.

solar
I see you are talking about me being Marxist. Far from right are you. I'm not a Marxist.

My family decided we would not exchange gifts because of the cost. Do you have a problem with that?
We as a family can exchange other things, including love, support and caring of one another. I think those are valuable gifts.

Why does a gift have to be something you buy?

alopekos teumesios/pitbull
Hey, the Army rocks. I filled many missing items in my inventory by midnight requistions ala Army supply points! haha.

One team, one fight!

Is Kwanzaa wise?
On two occasions I was imprisoned in the early 60s - once as a Freedom Rider, then while working with Dr. King. We have moved on since then, though we have a distance to go. The U. S. has paid a heavy price for slavery, including as many as 600,000 dead during our Civil War, among them some of my Yankee ancestors. This far exceeds the cost of any other war in our national history.

My concern about Kwanzaa is this. Dr. King, who may well have been the most important American of the 20th century, preached the vital message of racial harmony and unity, together with justice and peace. Kwanzaa, on the other hand, has been created - it would seem - to set African-Americans apart. Racial separation has been our problem in the past, and it should not be encouraged today.

The more we share common holidays and a common heritage generally the better we can battle racial prejudice based on the tribalism that infects people of every color and creed the world over. If Americans live up to our ideals we will succeed at creating a society with 'liberty and justice for all.' A separate holiday season for African-Americans, and without any foundation in their history, would seem only to divide and to add to the problems we confront already.

Happy New Year! May God bless the whole world. No exceptions!

We're all on the same side
Pitbull
I'm sure Gunny has kind regards for Army folks. I know that this old doggie admires the Marines (second only to my beloved 101st). I can remember crying like a baby when I first heard about the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut.

pitbull
Hey, I WORK for the Army. Advise and Counsel baby! haha.

I hear Army folks complain about lax training standards all of the time and the SecArmy recently stated that the Army was going back to its roots.

How can state that the WW2 Army was not some serious AZZ-KICKERS! The Wolfhounds in Korea! General Hal Moore's motivators at Ia Drang!

Oh and by the way...
Having read several of Ann's books, I believe that she would be the last person to begrudge a few current and former military types from discussing firearms and fieldcraft on her topic. I don't care how lucid and erudite Uncle Max fancies that his posts sound. He should give thanks to folks that stand watch in the night on his behalf. I for one thank God every day for the protection that they give to me and my family.

alopekos teumesios
The 200 yd line target is a 12" bull.

The 300 yd line is the same size. Basic NRA circle type.

You were, however, quite right in assuming I am a shooting god! haha.

Believe me, marksmanship is POUNDED into you in boot camp. We spent HOURS drawing pictures of the sights and what perfect sight alignment/sight picture is. And if the lessons are slow in taking hold, thousands of push-ups help! haha.

I have heard that the Army is going BACK to the every man a rifleman training. I guess someone in the Army brass finally read Hackworth's book, "About Face".

alopekos teumesios
Sorry, I should have said that we shoot for a week PRIOR to the matches starting and on a REQUAL, we have three days (m-t-w to shoot (practice) and pre-qual iS thurs, qual is on friday). The week PRIOR to the range is classes and snapping-in.

I was the high-shooter in my series in bootcamp.

The A2 came in and is a DREAM to shoot over the A1.

But the M-14 STILL rocks but I love my 03A3.

Thanks for the clarification
Gunny G
Savage99's description of the bullseye had me thinking you were a shooting god. Your detailed post of the USMC qualification clears it up for me. What can I say but every Marine a rifleman. Thanks for your service.

Loyal Democrat
Your post stating that black hatred for whites is a good thing is as silly as anything I have read on Town Hall. Do you think it would be healthy if blacks were allowed to lynch a bunch of white people? Would it be a positive thing, and a cleansing experience for blacks to be able to do that?


If so, I, as a black man, would like to begin that healing process with you, and the rest of the goofy, contemptible leftist morons who post here. In fact, you should demonstrate your committment to your views on the subject by volunteering to be lynched. How about it?

Man with the Big Iron
well said and thanks.

You can NEVER have enough guns. I finally have gotten that through the wife's noggin! haha.

I agree, the HARD CORE conservatives post here.

Funny story.

Attended the funeral of a relative this summer. Mostly far-right in the family but a few loony leftists hippies still stuck in the 60's show up.

Sure enough, talk turns to guns, out comes the guns, safety enforced BTW, and my hippie-lib aunt nearly dropped a turd on the patio.

She ran inside yelling "their taking guns out!" No SH*T. I'm not kidding. We were laughing like heck.

Libs, what are ya gonna do? She tried to insult me later on by saying that the Corps made me more to the right than Attila the Hun. I took it as a compliment.

alopekos teumesios
We shoot at 200, 300, and 500 yds normally. That is our annual requal.

For requal, it's sitting/kneeling/offhand at 200 SLOW fire. Rapid is sitting.

300, is kneeling for SLOW Fire. Sitting for Rapid.

500, is prone.

Competition is:

200...Offhand. Rapid is sitting.

300...Kneeling. Rapid is sitting.

600...Prone.

I've watched guys MAX the 600! I averaged 16 out of 20 in the bull. Usually the gold medal guys are separated by how many "X"'s they shoot! I was never in the 10% medal bracket. In the 11-13%. Close but no cigar.

The 500 yard is man-sized, 40" long x 20" wide.

Sure, But..
Savage99
Gunny G said a stock M16A2 using just the iron sights. Does an off-the-rack M16 firing ball ammo has 2 MOA accuracy? What kind of eyes do you need just to see a six-inch circle at 600 yards? I don't doubt Gunny's veracity, since he's an honorable member of the Corps and an NCO, but to me, that's drop dead fantastic. Kudos to your good marksmanship with an M1911. The Army never trusted me with anything so accurate. We used to call ours indirect fire weapons.
Uncle Max can eat **** and ***! I'll talk about anything I want to whoever I find of interest to me.

Colosteve
*grin* I know... I was just making a silly joke...

Fergus
Boxing day.

Johnny
Johnny, I can’t speak for every conservative who posts here, but I welcome you. You do have some left leaning tendencies however. But, you do seem to be educateable. As for your opinion regarding firearm, that’s acceptable but I think you make to much out of nothing. After all what would you have given your child, a car, an iPod, a puzzle, how about a new pair of shoes (Cowboy boots are better).

Your chastising Gunny for his presents to his sons is an attempt to impose your view of a “proper gift” on someone else. Gunny, as does everyone in a free society, has the right to chose what he gives his sons. Furthermore, it not the item given which is important, it is the giving of the gift i.e. the act of giving.

It has been said that most who post here are hard conservatives. Some of us are more than just hard. We are the ones who have faced the rider on the dark horse. Yes, we lived to tell about it but we would rather not. Some would call us heroes; I for one do not believe I fall into that category. In my view, the heroes are named on the wall. They sleep in the grave yards of France awaiting the Day of Judgment. But those who gave the ultimate sacrifice bequeathed to us the rights we conservatives so much appreciate and will protect with every fiber in our body.

Gunny has the right to give the gift to his sons what he wishes. You sir, do not have the right to chastise him for his selection nor does he you.


Buy often, buy early, and avoid the rush.